John Gruber linked to an article by Shawn Tully of Fortune that did an excellent job of presenting the nitty gritty of Apple's multinational tax payments. Gruber's take after reading the piece was that Apple was doing something complicated rather than devious:
Its so strange that so many americans in this thread dont understand the ethical low ground that Apple is taking here?
- If you have competition regulations in a union that forbids the membership states to provide unique (meaning: not available to all companies) tax rules, then why is it a problem that apple is being forced to pay what equals the standard tax of ireland? I really thought US was the lead on free and fair trade....guess I was wrong?
- How do you even justify....or how are you not the slightest outraged that apple is also dodging tax owed is US using tax havens (#paradisepapers). I know that you (and for good reasons) cannot trust your government, but in functioning countries tax is used to schools, healthcase systems etc...you know the stuff that ordinary citizens benefit from. Does being a big company justify dodging tax?
Dont get me wrong I love apple products and most of the things they do but yes, as many of you suggested apple should really just leave EU as a market if they dont want to follow regulations.
Hey France, why don’t you all pay us back for all of the soldiers lost liberating your country.
Soldiers? How's about France paying us back for basically rebuilding their entire country?
Actually, General De Gaulle did that, using the country's gold reserve. Not mentioning the fact that French nuclear and radar intelligence is instrumental to American weapons (and hence victory). You can't pick-and-choose elements from history. Going further, without French help, there is no America (there is a small statue, on Ellis Island if I'm not mistaken, that reminds New York and America of that small detail). The French are grateful to American soldiers for their courage and help, they're grateful to American business for participating in the rebuilding of Western economy (with tremendous profit for America). That is no reason for Europeans in general to not behave exactly like America, which is demand companies respecting the law. As I remember it, America did not hesitate a decade ago when a French major nuclear company broke American law, and leveled multi-billion dollars fines at it (eventually, causing the transfer of taxpayer-funded strategic military intelligence over to America, which some French people still think should have been vetoed at the highest level, as America would have done - but the USA apparently have more balls than the French do).
The point is: Attac is doing what they think they should do, and they might be wrong about it. France is not Attac, and Apple might be right or wrong in the law's eye, and right or wrong in morality's eye, with of which are not mutually exclusive. Therefore, just let things unfold. Ranting on Ai won't change anything ^^
DeGaulle f-d us. Are you crazy or just French? He sent the French navy in 1965 to come pick up 350 tons of gold by turning in $400M in US dollars from French monetary reserves.
We should have just told him thanks, that partially repays the debt that France STILL owes us for WWI and sent the navy packing empty handed. In contrast the US had repaid France for Revolutionary War loans by 1795 despite the precarious economy of the early US. They still owe us $2.9B in 1919 dollars fro WWI.
The didn't have to repay the $2.3B (1945 dollars) under the Marshall Plan/ERP because that was a gift.
France can go pound sand when we're talking about who owes whom what. We repaid them with interest LONG ago.
I feel all of the US based multinationals can't have it both ways...Play accounting games so that they avoid US taxes and then run to court whenever someone threatens one of their patents...Pay up multinationals -- all of you!
Accounting games?
The money was earned in other countries, where these multinationals have legally registered local entities as required.
The US has already received tax on the US revenue.
The US does not require tax on foreign-earned revenue, until it is repatriated. And it hasn't required these multinationals to repatriate the foreign-earned income.
A company can operate and survive without repatriating its foreign-earned income. Nevertheless, Apple earmarks funds for US taxes, out of its foreign-earned income, and accounts for this in its earnings calls.
Many multinationals WANT to repatriate (at least some of) their foreign-earned income -- they just don't want to be double-taxed on the same income (apparently a US-only practice), nor pay a 35-45% rate (one of the highest in the world, apparently). Maybe 25%, minus what they have already paid under deals given by countries who appreciate their presence and the jobs they provide...
...Assuming the multi-national is a good citizen in these countries, which Apple arguably is, though many others are not. It seems it's often the influence of the US govt that gets the deals in other countries for its multinationals, to the point of coercion; so you can't have it both ways.
Apple would probably be all for getting double-taxed on its foreign-earned income, and/or paying 45%... IF the US had decent medical coverage for all its citizens.
A national healthcare system would be unconstitutional unless a constitutional amendment supporting it passed. It’ll never happen and the Federal government should never be trusted with something so personal and important anyway.
Comments
https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/11/08/understanding-apples-tax-payments
Well worth a read, especially the article linked to by Gruber.
- If you have competition regulations in a union that forbids the membership states to provide unique (meaning: not available to all companies) tax rules, then why is it a problem that apple is being forced to pay what equals the standard tax of ireland? I really thought US was the lead on free and fair trade....guess I was wrong?
- How do you even justify....or how are you not the slightest outraged that apple is also dodging tax owed is US using tax havens (#paradisepapers). I know that you (and for good reasons) cannot trust your government, but in functioning countries tax is used to schools, healthcase systems etc...you know the stuff that ordinary citizens benefit from. Does being a big company justify dodging tax?
Dont get me wrong I love apple products and most of the things they do but yes, as many of you suggested apple should really just leave EU as a market if they dont want to follow regulations.
We should have just told him thanks, that partially repays the debt that France STILL owes us for WWI and sent the navy packing empty handed. In contrast the US had repaid France for Revolutionary War loans by 1795 despite the precarious economy of the early US. They still owe us $2.9B in 1919 dollars fro WWI.
The didn't have to repay the $2.3B (1945 dollars) under the Marshall Plan/ERP because that was a gift.
France can go pound sand when we're talking about who owes whom what. We repaid them with interest LONG ago.
It was a question for anyone, so when you’re done with the strawmen you’re free to answer it, too. Evasion and avoidance are not the same. Explain how you can be forced to retroactively pay taxes you didn’t need to pay at the time.