Apple details iMac Pro's T2 chip, which handles secure boot, system management, ISP, more

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 37
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    I wish I was still working. Writing up a security plan for a department full of these will be a piece of cake. Add MDM software that works with these and the security plan will write itself. Would just have to deal with the troublesome Windows PCs. Now if Apple would just re-release a compatible server and Macs would dominate secure government organizations. 
    Interesting how one government organization, the USA DoD, see no issues with Windows security.  They announced the deployment of Windows 10 in 4 million devices "based on the need to strengthen our cybersecurity posture while concurrently streamlining the IT operating environment.".

    https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/688721/dod-wide-windows-10-rapid-deployment-to-boost-cybersecurity/

    I don't see how bring back the XServe will make Apple dominant in government organizations, when Windows Server and Linux are far more capable than macOS Server.
    DoD adjusts their cyber security rules to meet their needs. Are their systems secure? It all depends on who you ask and who is responsible for accepting the risk.

    Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies. I worked for DOE and we actually had higher security than DoD.

    Bitlocker have been part of Windows since v8.  And in Windows 10 BitLocker, encryption works with TPM chips that come with most business/enterprise PC's (for example, Thinkpads had TPM chips for +10 years).  And it even works with Windows Hello, which has facial recognition, something missing in the iMac Pro. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/device-security/bitlocker/bitlocker-device-encryption-overview-windows-10

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/access-protection/hello-for-business/hello-why-pin-is-better-than-password

    And MS provide tools to manage it, not 3rd party tools needed. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-desktop-optimization-pack/mbam-v25/about-mbam-25





    And Apple has FileVault for 10+ years. Your point?

    I was responding to @Rob53, who mentioned that "Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies."  I already knew that OS X / macOS had FileVault for many years.
    To be clear, this T2 chip is a whole another level than BitLocker or FileVault. This is much more than that. This can prevent suspicious softwares from booting itself along with OSX, can prevent suspicious software using your webcam to spy on you.. for example. This is what I call true innovation. Certainly more innovative than slim keyboard or Touch Bar (which just happen to replace physical keys with touch screen). This should be in every MacBook Pro shipped. My guess is we will see it soon.  
    Secure Boot, Trusted Boot, ELAM, and Measured Boot, which part of Windows since v8, does the same thing, protect the system boot process,

    https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/dn168167.aspx

    The only requirement is UEFI and a TPM chip, which are very common in PCs a few years back.  I agree with what you said, this type of security should be part of every Mac as it is with Windows.  Too bad it's only on the iMac Pro.

    They might have it but software solution like this will never work as good as Apple solution that integrated & designed specifically for the task on specific machine and Apple solution is already more than booting. This needs to be on laptop ASAP. 
    edited December 2017
  • Reply 22 of 37
    danvmdanvm Posts: 806member
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    I wish I was still working. Writing up a security plan for a department full of these will be a piece of cake. Add MDM software that works with these and the security plan will write itself. Would just have to deal with the troublesome Windows PCs. Now if Apple would just re-release a compatible server and Macs would dominate secure government organizations. 
    Interesting how one government organization, the USA DoD, see no issues with Windows security.  They announced the deployment of Windows 10 in 4 million devices "based on the need to strengthen our cybersecurity posture while concurrently streamlining the IT operating environment.".

    https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/688721/dod-wide-windows-10-rapid-deployment-to-boost-cybersecurity/

    I don't see how bring back the XServe will make Apple dominant in government organizations, when Windows Server and Linux are far more capable than macOS Server.
    DoD adjusts their cyber security rules to meet their needs. Are their systems secure? It all depends on who you ask and who is responsible for accepting the risk.

    Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies. I worked for DOE and we actually had higher security than DoD.

    Bitlocker have been part of Windows since v8.  And in Windows 10 BitLocker, encryption works with TPM chips that come with most business/enterprise PC's (for example, Thinkpads had TPM chips for +10 years).  And it even works with Windows Hello, which has facial recognition, something missing in the iMac Pro. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/device-security/bitlocker/bitlocker-device-encryption-overview-windows-10

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/access-protection/hello-for-business/hello-why-pin-is-better-than-password

    And MS provide tools to manage it, not 3rd party tools needed. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-desktop-optimization-pack/mbam-v25/about-mbam-25





    And Apple has FileVault for 10+ years. Your point?

    I was responding to @Rob53, who mentioned that "Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies."  I already knew that OS X / macOS had FileVault for many years.
    To be clear, this T2 chip is a whole another level than BitLocker or FileVault. This is much more than that. This can prevent suspicious softwares from booting itself along with OSX, can prevent suspicious software using your webcam to spy on you.. for example. This is what I call true innovation. Certainly more innovative than slim keyboard or Touch Bar (which just happen to replace physical keys with touch screen). This should be in every MacBook Pro shipped. My guess is we will see it soon.  
    Secure Boot, Trusted Boot, ELAM, and Measured Boot, which part of Windows since v8, does the same thing, protect the system boot process,

    https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/dn168167.aspx

    The only requirement is UEFI and a TPM chip, which are very common in PCs a few years back.  I agree with what you said, this type of security should be part of every Mac as it is with Windows.  Too bad it's only on the iMac Pro.

    They might have it but software solution like this will never work as good as Apple solution that integrated & designed specifically for the task on specific machine. This needs to be on laptop ASAP. 
    The security mechanisms in Windows 8/10 require or works better when the devices has a TPM chip, so it's not a software-only solution.  The T2 chip may do more than a TPM chip.  But from a security POV, the article doesn't mention anything different or better compared to what MS have done since Windows 8 and a TPM chip.  If find interesting how MS implemented those security mechanisms 5 years ago as part of every Windows 8 version, while Apple have it now, only in the iMac Pro. 
    edited December 2017
  • Reply 23 of 37
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    I wish I was still working. Writing up a security plan for a department full of these will be a piece of cake. Add MDM software that works with these and the security plan will write itself. Would just have to deal with the troublesome Windows PCs. Now if Apple would just re-release a compatible server and Macs would dominate secure government organizations. 
    Interesting how one government organization, the USA DoD, see no issues with Windows security.  They announced the deployment of Windows 10 in 4 million devices "based on the need to strengthen our cybersecurity posture while concurrently streamlining the IT operating environment.".

    https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/688721/dod-wide-windows-10-rapid-deployment-to-boost-cybersecurity/

    I don't see how bring back the XServe will make Apple dominant in government organizations, when Windows Server and Linux are far more capable than macOS Server.
    DoD adjusts their cyber security rules to meet their needs. Are their systems secure? It all depends on who you ask and who is responsible for accepting the risk.

    Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies. I worked for DOE and we actually had higher security than DoD.

    Bitlocker have been part of Windows since v8.  And in Windows 10 BitLocker, encryption works with TPM chips that come with most business/enterprise PC's (for example, Thinkpads had TPM chips for +10 years).  And it even works with Windows Hello, which has facial recognition, something missing in the iMac Pro. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/device-security/bitlocker/bitlocker-device-encryption-overview-windows-10

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/access-protection/hello-for-business/hello-why-pin-is-better-than-password

    And MS provide tools to manage it, not 3rd party tools needed. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-desktop-optimization-pack/mbam-v25/about-mbam-25





    And Apple has FileVault for 10+ years. Your point?

    I was responding to @Rob53, who mentioned that "Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies."  I already knew that OS X / macOS had FileVault for many years.
    To be clear, this T2 chip is a whole another level than BitLocker or FileVault. This is much more than that. This can prevent suspicious softwares from booting itself along with OSX, can prevent suspicious software using your webcam to spy on you.. for example. This is what I call true innovation. Certainly more innovative than slim keyboard or Touch Bar (which just happen to replace physical keys with touch screen). This should be in every MacBook Pro shipped. My guess is we will see it soon.  
    Secure Boot, Trusted Boot, ELAM, and Measured Boot, which part of Windows since v8, does the same thing, protect the system boot process,

    https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/dn168167.aspx

    The only requirement is UEFI and a TPM chip, which are very common in PCs a few years back.  I agree with what you said, this type of security should be part of every Mac as it is with Windows.  Too bad it's only on the iMac Pro.

    They might have it but software solution like this will never work as good as Apple solution that integrated & designed specifically for the task on specific machine. This needs to be on laptop ASAP. 
    The security mechanisms in Windows 8/10 require or works better when the devices has a TPM chip, so it's not a software-only solution.  The T2 chip may do more than a TPM chip.  But from a security POV, the article doesn't mention anything different or better compared to what MS have done since Windows 8 and a TPM chip.  If find interesting how MS implemented those security mechanisms 5 years ago as part of every Windows 8 version, while Apple have it now, only in the iMac Pro. 
    Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac. The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases. 
    It’s not different from Android that they also have many things first but never works as well. 

    I think what many people failed to grasp is Apple has its own standard to uphold while many companies, Microsoft included, doesn’t. And even if they want to have a standard they can’t because they don’t control every aspects of their product. 
    edited December 2017
  • Reply 24 of 37
    danvmdanvm Posts: 806member
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    I wish I was still working. Writing up a security plan for a department full of these will be a piece of cake. Add MDM software that works with these and the security plan will write itself. Would just have to deal with the troublesome Windows PCs. Now if Apple would just re-release a compatible server and Macs would dominate secure government organizations. 
    Interesting how one government organization, the USA DoD, see no issues with Windows security.  They announced the deployment of Windows 10 in 4 million devices "based on the need to strengthen our cybersecurity posture while concurrently streamlining the IT operating environment.".

    https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/688721/dod-wide-windows-10-rapid-deployment-to-boost-cybersecurity/

    I don't see how bring back the XServe will make Apple dominant in government organizations, when Windows Server and Linux are far more capable than macOS Server.
    DoD adjusts their cyber security rules to meet their needs. Are their systems secure? It all depends on who you ask and who is responsible for accepting the risk.

    Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies. I worked for DOE and we actually had higher security than DoD.

    Bitlocker have been part of Windows since v8.  And in Windows 10 BitLocker, encryption works with TPM chips that come with most business/enterprise PC's (for example, Thinkpads had TPM chips for +10 years).  And it even works with Windows Hello, which has facial recognition, something missing in the iMac Pro. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/device-security/bitlocker/bitlocker-device-encryption-overview-windows-10

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/access-protection/hello-for-business/hello-why-pin-is-better-than-password

    And MS provide tools to manage it, not 3rd party tools needed. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-desktop-optimization-pack/mbam-v25/about-mbam-25





    And Apple has FileVault for 10+ years. Your point?

    I was responding to @Rob53, who mentioned that "Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies."  I already knew that OS X / macOS had FileVault for many years.
    To be clear, this T2 chip is a whole another level than BitLocker or FileVault. This is much more than that. This can prevent suspicious softwares from booting itself along with OSX, can prevent suspicious software using your webcam to spy on you.. for example. This is what I call true innovation. Certainly more innovative than slim keyboard or Touch Bar (which just happen to replace physical keys with touch screen). This should be in every MacBook Pro shipped. My guess is we will see it soon.  
    Secure Boot, Trusted Boot, ELAM, and Measured Boot, which part of Windows since v8, does the same thing, protect the system boot process,

    https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/dn168167.aspx

    The only requirement is UEFI and a TPM chip, which are very common in PCs a few years back.  I agree with what you said, this type of security should be part of every Mac as it is with Windows.  Too bad it's only on the iMac Pro.

    They might have it but software solution like this will never work as good as Apple solution that integrated & designed specifically for the task on specific machine. This needs to be on laptop ASAP. 
    The security mechanisms in Windows 8/10 require or works better when the devices has a TPM chip, so it's not a software-only solution.  The T2 chip may do more than a TPM chip.  But from a security POV, the article doesn't mention anything different or better compared to what MS have done since Windows 8 and a TPM chip.  If find interesting how MS implemented those security mechanisms 5 years ago as part of every Windows 8 version, while Apple have it now, only in the iMac Pro. 
    Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac. The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases. 
    It’s not different from Android that they also have many things first but never works as well.
    It's nice to see how a Mac integrates with an iPad and iPhone.  The same can be said of Windows integrating with the XBox, Office 365, SQL, Exchange and SharePoint.  Apple isn't the only one that integrates with products they own. Plus MS had no issues integrating the security mechanisms I mentioned before with TPM chips available from many vendors.  

     I think what many people failed to grasp is Apple has its own standard to uphold while many companies, Microsoft included, doesn’t. And even if they want to have a standard they can’t because they don’t control every aspects of their product.

    Do you think MS has no control on XBox and the Surface devices?

    edited December 2017
  • Reply 25 of 37
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    I wish I was still working. Writing up a security plan for a department full of these will be a piece of cake. Add MDM software that works with these and the security plan will write itself. Would just have to deal with the troublesome Windows PCs. Now if Apple would just re-release a compatible server and Macs would dominate secure government organizations. 
    Interesting how one government organization, the USA DoD, see no issues with Windows security.  They announced the deployment of Windows 10 in 4 million devices "based on the need to strengthen our cybersecurity posture while concurrently streamlining the IT operating environment.".

    https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/688721/dod-wide-windows-10-rapid-deployment-to-boost-cybersecurity/

    I don't see how bring back the XServe will make Apple dominant in government organizations, when Windows Server and Linux are far more capable than macOS Server.
    DoD adjusts their cyber security rules to meet their needs. Are their systems secure? It all depends on who you ask and who is responsible for accepting the risk.

    Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies. I worked for DOE and we actually had higher security than DoD.

    Bitlocker have been part of Windows since v8.  And in Windows 10 BitLocker, encryption works with TPM chips that come with most business/enterprise PC's (for example, Thinkpads had TPM chips for +10 years).  And it even works with Windows Hello, which has facial recognition, something missing in the iMac Pro. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/device-security/bitlocker/bitlocker-device-encryption-overview-windows-10

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/access-protection/hello-for-business/hello-why-pin-is-better-than-password

    And MS provide tools to manage it, not 3rd party tools needed. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-desktop-optimization-pack/mbam-v25/about-mbam-25





    And Apple has FileVault for 10+ years. Your point?

    I was responding to @Rob53, who mentioned that "Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies."  I already knew that OS X / macOS had FileVault for many years.
    To be clear, this T2 chip is a whole another level than BitLocker or FileVault. This is much more than that. This can prevent suspicious softwares from booting itself along with OSX, can prevent suspicious software using your webcam to spy on you.. for example. This is what I call true innovation. Certainly more innovative than slim keyboard or Touch Bar (which just happen to replace physical keys with touch screen). This should be in every MacBook Pro shipped. My guess is we will see it soon.  
    Secure Boot, Trusted Boot, ELAM, and Measured Boot, which part of Windows since v8, does the same thing, protect the system boot process,

    https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/dn168167.aspx

    The only requirement is UEFI and a TPM chip, which are very common in PCs a few years back.  I agree with what you said, this type of security should be part of every Mac as it is with Windows.  Too bad it's only on the iMac Pro.

    They might have it but software solution like this will never work as good as Apple solution that integrated & designed specifically for the task on specific machine. This needs to be on laptop ASAP. 
    The security mechanisms in Windows 8/10 require or works better when the devices has a TPM chip, so it's not a software-only solution.  The T2 chip may do more than a TPM chip.  But from a security POV, the article doesn't mention anything different or better compared to what MS have done since Windows 8 and a TPM chip.  If find interesting how MS implemented those security mechanisms 5 years ago as part of every Windows 8 version, while Apple have it now, only in the iMac Pro. 
    Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac. The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases. 
    It’s not different from Android that they also have many things first but never works as well.
    It's nice to see how a Mac integrates with an iPad and iPhone.  The same can be said of Windows integrating with the XBox, Office 365, SQL, Exchange and SharePoint.  Apple isn't the only one that integrates with products they own.

     I think what many people failed to grasp is Apple has its own standard to uphold while many companies, Microsoft included, doesn’t. And even if they want to have a standard they can’t because they don’t control every aspects of their product.

    Do you think MS has no control on XBox and the Surface devices?

    Windows isn't written for specific software or hardware so it will never be considered an integration system, just like housing estate never built for specific owner.
    And in case of iMac Pro it's just go another level with Apple computer talking to Apple chip (T2) through Apple software (OSX) on the machine Apple approve everything. Apple is just years ahead of Microsoft in this case & it will take years for Microsoft to catch up if at all but from my experience with Microsoft products I won't hold my breath frankly.

    And it will be much worse if the rumour about Microsoft quitting Surface hardware is true. Whatever it is it already looking bad for Surface. From USA Today:

    Consumer Reports has removed its coveted “recommendation” designation for four Microsoft Surface laptops it had previously blessed with such status.
    At issue, the publication says, is the “predicted reliability” of the Microsoft machines compared to most other brands, which Consumer Reports said was worse by a "statistically significant margin."
    Consumer Reports based its decision on the results of an annual subscriber survey about the products such people own and use.

    Something just never changes...

    edited December 2017
  • Reply 26 of 37
    danvmdanvm Posts: 806member
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    I wish I was still working. Writing up a security plan for a department full of these will be a piece of cake. Add MDM software that works with these and the security plan will write itself. Would just have to deal with the troublesome Windows PCs. Now if Apple would just re-release a compatible server and Macs would dominate secure government organizations. 
    Interesting how one government organization, the USA DoD, see no issues with Windows security.  They announced the deployment of Windows 10 in 4 million devices "based on the need to strengthen our cybersecurity posture while concurrently streamlining the IT operating environment.".

    https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/688721/dod-wide-windows-10-rapid-deployment-to-boost-cybersecurity/

    I don't see how bring back the XServe will make Apple dominant in government organizations, when Windows Server and Linux are far more capable than macOS Server.
    DoD adjusts their cyber security rules to meet their needs. Are their systems secure? It all depends on who you ask and who is responsible for accepting the risk.

    Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies. I worked for DOE and we actually had higher security than DoD.

    Bitlocker have been part of Windows since v8.  And in Windows 10 BitLocker, encryption works with TPM chips that come with most business/enterprise PC's (for example, Thinkpads had TPM chips for +10 years).  And it even works with Windows Hello, which has facial recognition, something missing in the iMac Pro. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/device-security/bitlocker/bitlocker-device-encryption-overview-windows-10

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/access-protection/hello-for-business/hello-why-pin-is-better-than-password

    And MS provide tools to manage it, not 3rd party tools needed. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-desktop-optimization-pack/mbam-v25/about-mbam-25





    And Apple has FileVault for 10+ years. Your point?

    I was responding to @Rob53, who mentioned that "Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies."  I already knew that OS X / macOS had FileVault for many years.
    To be clear, this T2 chip is a whole another level than BitLocker or FileVault. This is much more than that. This can prevent suspicious softwares from booting itself along with OSX, can prevent suspicious software using your webcam to spy on you.. for example. This is what I call true innovation. Certainly more innovative than slim keyboard or Touch Bar (which just happen to replace physical keys with touch screen). This should be in every MacBook Pro shipped. My guess is we will see it soon.  
    Secure Boot, Trusted Boot, ELAM, and Measured Boot, which part of Windows since v8, does the same thing, protect the system boot process,

    https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/dn168167.aspx

    The only requirement is UEFI and a TPM chip, which are very common in PCs a few years back.  I agree with what you said, this type of security should be part of every Mac as it is with Windows.  Too bad it's only on the iMac Pro.

    They might have it but software solution like this will never work as good as Apple solution that integrated & designed specifically for the task on specific machine. This needs to be on laptop ASAP. 
    The security mechanisms in Windows 8/10 require or works better when the devices has a TPM chip, so it's not a software-only solution.  The T2 chip may do more than a TPM chip.  But from a security POV, the article doesn't mention anything different or better compared to what MS have done since Windows 8 and a TPM chip.  If find interesting how MS implemented those security mechanisms 5 years ago as part of every Windows 8 version, while Apple have it now, only in the iMac Pro. 
    Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac. The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases. 
    It’s not different from Android that they also have many things first but never works as well.

    It's nice to see how a Mac integrates with an iPad and iPhone.  The same can be said of Windows integrating with the XBox, Office 365, SQL, Exchange and SharePoint.  Apple isn't the only one that integrates with products they own.

     I think what many people failed to grasp is Apple has its own standard to uphold while many companies, Microsoft included, doesn’t. And even if they want to have a standard they can’t because they don’t control every aspects of their product.

    Do you think MS has no control on XBox and the Surface devices?

    Windows isn't written for specific software or hardware so it will never be considered an integration system, just like housing estate never built for specific owner.
    And in case of iMac Pro it's just go another level with Apple computer talking to Apple chip (T2) through Apple software (OSX) on the machine Apple approve everything. Apple is just years ahead of Microsoft in this case & it will take years for Microsoft to catch up if at all but from my experience with Microsoft products I won't hold my breath frankly.

    The level of integration of Apple is mostly based in hardware, while MS is based in software and services  For example, macOS/Mac have no integration with the Xbox, while it works without issues with Windows.  Another example is how well Windows integrates with Active Directory, something macOS lacks.  Or the excellent integration of MS Office with Office 365 cloud apps, and MS ERP and server applications, while iWorks does nothing.  See, Apple is not the only one that have a better integration with their products.  On the security side, MS make Windows integrate with TPM chips, while Apple designed the T2 for, among other things, security.  And like I posted before, from a security POV, I haven't seen something different or better results from Apple by the T2 chip.  


    And it will be much worse if the rumour about Microsoft quitting Surface hardware is true. Whatever it is it already looking bad for Surface. From USA Today:

    Consumer Reports has removed its coveted “recommendation” designation for four Microsoft Surface laptops it had previously blessed with such status.
    At issue, the publication says, is the “predicted reliability” of the Microsoft machines compared to most other brands, which Consumer Reports said was worse by a "statistically significant margin."
    Consumer Reports based its decision on the results of an annual subscriber survey about the products such people own and use.

    Something just never changes...

    MS already denied is quitting the Surface business,

    http://www.techradar.com/news/microsoft-denies-its-killing-its-surface-products

    http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-panos-panay-not-killing-surface-2017-10

    And the Consumers Reports study was based from the first Surface Pro model to the latest, at the time the Surface Pro 4.  The Surface Pro 4 by itself was a big step forward.  It even had a better consumer satisfaction compared to iPads. 

    https://9to5mac.com/2017/04/06/microsoft-edges-out-apple-for-top-spot-in-j-d-power-tablet-survey/

    I suppose that a device that has a better consumer satisfaction rating than iPads has too be good, don't you think?  So yes, things can change.






    edited December 2017
  • Reply 27 of 37
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    I wish I was still working. Writing up a security plan for a department full of these will be a piece of cake. Add MDM software that works with these and the security plan will write itself. Would just have to deal with the troublesome Windows PCs. Now if Apple would just re-release a compatible server and Macs would dominate secure government organizations. 
    Interesting how one government organization, the USA DoD, see no issues with Windows security.  They announced the deployment of Windows 10 in 4 million devices "based on the need to strengthen our cybersecurity posture while concurrently streamlining the IT operating environment.".

    https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/688721/dod-wide-windows-10-rapid-deployment-to-boost-cybersecurity/

    I don't see how bring back the XServe will make Apple dominant in government organizations, when Windows Server and Linux are far more capable than macOS Server.
    DoD adjusts their cyber security rules to meet their needs. Are their systems secure? It all depends on who you ask and who is responsible for accepting the risk.

    Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies. I worked for DOE and we actually had higher security than DoD.

    Bitlocker have been part of Windows since v8.  And in Windows 10 BitLocker, encryption works with TPM chips that come with most business/enterprise PC's (for example, Thinkpads had TPM chips for +10 years).  And it even works with Windows Hello, which has facial recognition, something missing in the iMac Pro. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/device-security/bitlocker/bitlocker-device-encryption-overview-windows-10

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/access-protection/hello-for-business/hello-why-pin-is-better-than-password

    And MS provide tools to manage it, not 3rd party tools needed. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-desktop-optimization-pack/mbam-v25/about-mbam-25





    And Apple has FileVault for 10+ years. Your point?

    I was responding to @Rob53, who mentioned that "Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies."  I already knew that OS X / macOS had FileVault for many years.
    To be clear, this T2 chip is a whole another level than BitLocker or FileVault. This is much more than that. This can prevent suspicious softwares from booting itself along with OSX, can prevent suspicious software using your webcam to spy on you.. for example. This is what I call true innovation. Certainly more innovative than slim keyboard or Touch Bar (which just happen to replace physical keys with touch screen). This should be in every MacBook Pro shipped. My guess is we will see it soon.  
    Secure Boot, Trusted Boot, ELAM, and Measured Boot, which part of Windows since v8, does the same thing, protect the system boot process,

    https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/dn168167.aspx

    The only requirement is UEFI and a TPM chip, which are very common in PCs a few years back.  I agree with what you said, this type of security should be part of every Mac as it is with Windows.  Too bad it's only on the iMac Pro.

    They might have it but software solution like this will never work as good as Apple solution that integrated & designed specifically for the task on specific machine. This needs to be on laptop ASAP. 
    The security mechanisms in Windows 8/10 require or works better when the devices has a TPM chip, so it's not a software-only solution.  The T2 chip may do more than a TPM chip.  But from a security POV, the article doesn't mention anything different or better compared to what MS have done since Windows 8 and a TPM chip.  If find interesting how MS implemented those security mechanisms 5 years ago as part of every Windows 8 version, while Apple have it now, only in the iMac Pro. 
    Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac. The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases. 
    It’s not different from Android that they also have many things first but never works as well.

    It's nice to see how a Mac integrates with an iPad and iPhone.  The same can be said of Windows integrating with the XBox, Office 365, SQL, Exchange and SharePoint.  Apple isn't the only one that integrates with products they own.

     I think what many people failed to grasp is Apple has its own standard to uphold while many companies, Microsoft included, doesn’t. And even if they want to have a standard they can’t because they don’t control every aspects of their product.

    Do you think MS has no control on XBox and the Surface devices?

    Windows isn't written for specific software or hardware so it will never be considered an integration system, just like housing estate never built for specific owner.
    And in case of iMac Pro it's just go another level with Apple computer talking to Apple chip (T2) through Apple software (OSX) on the machine Apple approve everything. Apple is just years ahead of Microsoft in this case & it will take years for Microsoft to catch up if at all but from my experience with Microsoft products I won't hold my breath frankly.

    The level of integration of Apple is mostly based in hardware, while MS is based in software and services  For example, macOS/Mac have no integration with the Xbox, while it works without issues with Windows.  Another example is how well Windows integrates with Active Directory, something macOS lacks.  Or the excellent integration of MS Office with Office 365 cloud apps, and MS ERP and server applications, while iWorks does nothing.  See, Apple is not the only one that have a better integration with their products.


    And it will be much worse if the rumour about Microsoft quitting Surface hardware is true. Whatever it is it already looking bad for Surface. From USA Today:

    Consumer Reports has removed its coveted “recommendation” designation for four Microsoft Surface laptops it had previously blessed with such status.
    At issue, the publication says, is the “predicted reliability” of the Microsoft machines compared to most other brands, which Consumer Reports said was worse by a "statistically significant margin."
    Consumer Reports based its decision on the results of an annual subscriber survey about the products such people own and use.

    Something just never changes...

    MS already denied is quitting the Surface business,

    http://www.techradar.com/news/microsoft-denies-its-killing-its-surface-products

    http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-panos-panay-not-killing-surface-2017-10

    And the Consumers Reports study was based from the first Surface Pro model to the latest, at the time the Surface Pro 4.  The Surface Pro 4 by itself was a big step forward.  It even had a better consumer satisfaction compared to iPads. 

    https://9to5mac.com/2017/04/06/microsoft-edges-out-apple-for-top-spot-in-j-d-power-tablet-survey/

    I suppose that a device that has a better consumer satisfaction rating than iPads has too be good, don't you think?  So yes, things can change.






    Well, I'm sure glad that macOS has no integration with Xbox. lol. It would be strange if it has, but that is missing my point entirely.

    As for Surface, for sure Consumer Report rated it highly too but in the end have to *pull recommendation* back because of their users complaints. This is the headline.


    Consumer Reports pulls recommendation for Microsoft Surface laptops

    Consumer Reports' removed its coveted "recommendation" designation from four Microsoft Surface laptops after hearing back from users.


    They recommended it, then they don't recommend it. And this is 4 months after that JD Power ranking. Something has reared its ugly head at last I guess.


    edited December 2017
  • Reply 28 of 37
    ksecksec Posts: 1,567member
    So another way to think of it, is the T2 is the main processor that does the low level work and boot up, with the Intel CPU is acting like a Co-Processor in a sense. It is also interesting the SSD Controller is there, which means you cant upgrade your SSD performance anymore.

    I assume, when W3 is out, which is Bluetooth 5 and 802.11ac / ax, the Wireless Part will be integrated into T3 as well. You are basically left with CPU , GPU and Tx Chip.
  • Reply 29 of 37
    danvmdanvm Posts: 806member
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    I wish I was still working. Writing up a security plan for a department full of these will be a piece of cake. Add MDM software that works with these and the security plan will write itself. Would just have to deal with the troublesome Windows PCs. Now if Apple would just re-release a compatible server and Macs would dominate secure government organizations. 
    Interesting how one government organization, the USA DoD, see no issues with Windows security.  They announced the deployment of Windows 10 in 4 million devices "based on the need to strengthen our cybersecurity posture while concurrently streamlining the IT operating environment.".

    https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/688721/dod-wide-windows-10-rapid-deployment-to-boost-cybersecurity/

    I don't see how bring back the XServe will make Apple dominant in government organizations, when Windows Server and Linux are far more capable than macOS Server.
    DoD adjusts their cyber security rules to meet their needs. Are their systems secure? It all depends on who you ask and who is responsible for accepting the risk.

    Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies. I worked for DOE and we actually had higher security than DoD.

    Bitlocker have been part of Windows since v8.  And in Windows 10 BitLocker, encryption works with TPM chips that come with most business/enterprise PC's (for example, Thinkpads had TPM chips for +10 years).  And it even works with Windows Hello, which has facial recognition, something missing in the iMac Pro. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/device-security/bitlocker/bitlocker-device-encryption-overview-windows-10

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/access-protection/hello-for-business/hello-why-pin-is-better-than-password

    And MS provide tools to manage it, not 3rd party tools needed. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-desktop-optimization-pack/mbam-v25/about-mbam-25





    And Apple has FileVault for 10+ years. Your point?

    I was responding to @Rob53, who mentioned that "Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies."  I already knew that OS X / macOS had FileVault for many years.
    To be clear, this T2 chip is a whole another level than BitLocker or FileVault. This is much more than that. This can prevent suspicious softwares from booting itself along with OSX, can prevent suspicious software using your webcam to spy on you.. for example. This is what I call true innovation. Certainly more innovative than slim keyboard or Touch Bar (which just happen to replace physical keys with touch screen). This should be in every MacBook Pro shipped. My guess is we will see it soon.  
    Secure Boot, Trusted Boot, ELAM, and Measured Boot, which part of Windows since v8, does the same thing, protect the system boot process,

    https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/dn168167.aspx

    The only requirement is UEFI and a TPM chip, which are very common in PCs a few years back.  I agree with what you said, this type of security should be part of every Mac as it is with Windows.  Too bad it's only on the iMac Pro.

    They might have it but software solution like this will never work as good as Apple solution that integrated & designed specifically for the task on specific machine. This needs to be on laptop ASAP. 
    The security mechanisms in Windows 8/10 require or works better when the devices has a TPM chip, so it's not a software-only solution.  The T2 chip may do more than a TPM chip.  But from a security POV, the article doesn't mention anything different or better compared to what MS have done since Windows 8 and a TPM chip.  If find interesting how MS implemented those security mechanisms 5 years ago as part of every Windows 8 version, while Apple have it now, only in the iMac Pro. 
    Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac. The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases. 
    It’s not different from Android that they also have many things first but never works as well.

    It's nice to see how a Mac integrates with an iPad and iPhone.  The same can be said of Windows integrating with the XBox, Office 365, SQL, Exchange and SharePoint.  Apple isn't the only one that integrates with products they own.

     I think what many people failed to grasp is Apple has its own standard to uphold while many companies, Microsoft included, doesn’t. And even if they want to have a standard they can’t because they don’t control every aspects of their product.

    Do you think MS has no control on XBox and the Surface devices?

    Windows isn't written for specific software or hardware so it will never be considered an integration system, just like housing estate never built for specific owner.
    And in case of iMac Pro it's just go another level with Apple computer talking to Apple chip (T2) through Apple software (OSX) on the machine Apple approve everything. Apple is just years ahead of Microsoft in this case & it will take years for Microsoft to catch up if at all but from my experience with Microsoft products I won't hold my breath frankly.

    The level of integration of Apple is mostly based in hardware, while MS is based in software and services  For example, macOS/Mac have no integration with the Xbox, while it works without issues with Windows.  Another example is how well Windows integrates with Active Directory, something macOS lacks.  Or the excellent integration of MS Office with Office 365 cloud apps, and MS ERP and server applications, while iWorks does nothing.  See, Apple is not the only one that have a better integration with their products.


    And it will be much worse if the rumour about Microsoft quitting Surface hardware is true. Whatever it is it already looking bad for Surface. From USA Today:

    Consumer Reports has removed its coveted “recommendation” designation for four Microsoft Surface laptops it had previously blessed with such status.
    At issue, the publication says, is the “predicted reliability” of the Microsoft machines compared to most other brands, which Consumer Reports said was worse by a "statistically significant margin."
    Consumer Reports based its decision on the results of an annual subscriber survey about the products such people own and use.

    Something just never changes...

    MS already denied is quitting the Surface business,

    http://www.techradar.com/news/microsoft-denies-its-killing-its-surface-products

    http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-panos-panay-not-killing-surface-2017-10

    And the Consumers Reports study was based from the first Surface Pro model to the latest, at the time the Surface Pro 4.  The Surface Pro 4 by itself was a big step forward.  It even had a better consumer satisfaction compared to iPads. 

    https://9to5mac.com/2017/04/06/microsoft-edges-out-apple-for-top-spot-in-j-d-power-tablet-survey/

    I suppose that a device that has a better consumer satisfaction rating than iPads has too be good, don't you think?  So yes, things can change.






    Well, I'm sure glad that macOS has no integration with Xbox. lol. It would be strange if it has, but that is missing my point entirely.

    The examples I gave were to respond your post,

    "Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac. The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases." 

    It's easy to for you see the benefits of an all Apple environment, but at the same time you don't see the benefits of a all-Windows environment.  And yes, their are many benefits of an all Windows environment, specially in businesses and the enterprise, or with devices like the Xbox.  I work with both in a frequent basis, and they have their positive and negatives things.  Y

    Specific to the T2 chip integration with the iMac Pro, neither you or the article show advantages or additional benefits from a security POV compared to Windows + TPM.  Both companies achieve the same goal in a different way, with the difference that MS have been giving customer these features since Windows 8. 

    As for Surface, for sure Consumer Report rated it highly too but in the end have to *pull recommendation* back because of their users complaints. This is the headline.


    Consumer Reports pulls recommendation for Microsoft Surface laptops

    Consumer Reports' removed its coveted "recommendation" designation from four Microsoft Surface laptops after hearing back from users.


    They recommended it, then they don't recommend it. And this is 4 months after that JD Power ranking. Something has reared its ugly head at last I guess.

    There is a difference between both studies.  Consumers Reports results were based in all Surface Pro's, since the 1st model.  JD Power was specific with the Surface Pro 4.  Consumers Reports even said that their study isn't perfect at all. 

    https://www.pcworld.com/article/3215232/tablet-pc/consumer-reports-surface-laptop-flap-is-based-on-data-from-past-surface-models.html

    That could mean that MS got better between the 1st model and the SP4.  And now the SP4 had a higher consumer satisfaction compared to iPads.  I think you'll never expect a MS device having a higher consumer satisfaction over iPads.  See, things change.



    edited December 2017
  • Reply 30 of 37
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    I wish I was still working. Writing up a security plan for a department full of these will be a piece of cake. Add MDM software that works with these and the security plan will write itself. Would just have to deal with the troublesome Windows PCs. Now if Apple would just re-release a compatible server and Macs would dominate secure government organizations. 
    Interesting how one government organization, the USA DoD, see no issues with Windows security.  They announced the deployment of Windows 10 in 4 million devices "based on the need to strengthen our cybersecurity posture while concurrently streamlining the IT operating environment.".

    https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/688721/dod-wide-windows-10-rapid-deployment-to-boost-cybersecurity/

    I don't see how bring back the XServe will make Apple dominant in government organizations, when Windows Server and Linux are far more capable than macOS Server.
    DoD adjusts their cyber security rules to meet their needs. Are their systems secure? It all depends on who you ask and who is responsible for accepting the risk.

    Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies. I worked for DOE and we actually had higher security than DoD.

    Bitlocker have been part of Windows since v8.  And in Windows 10 BitLocker, encryption works with TPM chips that come with most business/enterprise PC's (for example, Thinkpads had TPM chips for +10 years).  And it even works with Windows Hello, which has facial recognition, something missing in the iMac Pro. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/device-security/bitlocker/bitlocker-device-encryption-overview-windows-10

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/access-protection/hello-for-business/hello-why-pin-is-better-than-password

    And MS provide tools to manage it, not 3rd party tools needed. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-desktop-optimization-pack/mbam-v25/about-mbam-25





    And Apple has FileVault for 10+ years. Your point?

    I was responding to @Rob53, who mentioned that "Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies."  I already knew that OS X / macOS had FileVault for many years.
    To be clear, this T2 chip is a whole another level than BitLocker or FileVault. This is much more than that. This can prevent suspicious softwares from booting itself along with OSX, can prevent suspicious software using your webcam to spy on you.. for example. This is what I call true innovation. Certainly more innovative than slim keyboard or Touch Bar (which just happen to replace physical keys with touch screen). This should be in every MacBook Pro shipped. My guess is we will see it soon.  
    Secure Boot, Trusted Boot, ELAM, and Measured Boot, which part of Windows since v8, does the same thing, protect the system boot process,

    https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/dn168167.aspx

    The only requirement is UEFI and a TPM chip, which are very common in PCs a few years back.  I agree with what you said, this type of security should be part of every Mac as it is with Windows.  Too bad it's only on the iMac Pro.

    They might have it but software solution like this will never work as good as Apple solution that integrated & designed specifically for the task on specific machine. This needs to be on laptop ASAP. 
    The security mechanisms in Windows 8/10 require or works better when the devices has a TPM chip, so it's not a software-only solution.  The T2 chip may do more than a TPM chip.  But from a security POV, the article doesn't mention anything different or better compared to what MS have done since Windows 8 and a TPM chip.  If find interesting how MS implemented those security mechanisms 5 years ago as part of every Windows 8 version, while Apple have it now, only in the iMac Pro. 
    Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac. The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases. 
    It’s not different from Android that they also have many things first but never works as well.

    It's nice to see how a Mac integrates with an iPad and iPhone.  The same can be said of Windows integrating with the XBox, Office 365, SQL, Exchange and SharePoint.  Apple isn't the only one that integrates with products they own.

     I think what many people failed to grasp is Apple has its own standard to uphold while many companies, Microsoft included, doesn’t. And even if they want to have a standard they can’t because they don’t control every aspects of their product.

    Do you think MS has no control on XBox and the Surface devices?

    Windows isn't written for specific software or hardware so it will never be considered an integration system, just like housing estate never built for specific owner.
    And in case of iMac Pro it's just go another level with Apple computer talking to Apple chip (T2) through Apple software (OSX) on the machine Apple approve everything. Apple is just years ahead of Microsoft in this case & it will take years for Microsoft to catch up if at all but from my experience with Microsoft products I won't hold my breath frankly.

    The level of integration of Apple is mostly based in hardware, while MS is based in software and services  For example, macOS/Mac have no integration with the Xbox, while it works without issues with Windows.  Another example is how well Windows integrates with Active Directory, something macOS lacks.  Or the excellent integration of MS Office with Office 365 cloud apps, and MS ERP and server applications, while iWorks does nothing.  See, Apple is not the only one that have a better integration with their products.


    And it will be much worse if the rumour about Microsoft quitting Surface hardware is true. Whatever it is it already looking bad for Surface. From USA Today:

    Consumer Reports has removed its coveted “recommendation” designation for four Microsoft Surface laptops it had previously blessed with such status.
    At issue, the publication says, is the “predicted reliability” of the Microsoft machines compared to most other brands, which Consumer Reports said was worse by a "statistically significant margin."
    Consumer Reports based its decision on the results of an annual subscriber survey about the products such people own and use.

    Something just never changes...

    MS already denied is quitting the Surface business,

    http://www.techradar.com/news/microsoft-denies-its-killing-its-surface-products

    http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-panos-panay-not-killing-surface-2017-10

    And the Consumers Reports study was based from the first Surface Pro model to the latest, at the time the Surface Pro 4.  The Surface Pro 4 by itself was a big step forward.  It even had a better consumer satisfaction compared to iPads. 

    https://9to5mac.com/2017/04/06/microsoft-edges-out-apple-for-top-spot-in-j-d-power-tablet-survey/

    I suppose that a device that has a better consumer satisfaction rating than iPads has too be good, don't you think?  So yes, things can change.






    Well, I'm sure glad that macOS has no integration with Xbox. lol. It would be strange if it has, but that is missing my point entirely.

    The examples I gave were to respond your post,

    "Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac. The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases." 

    It's easy to for you see the benefits of an all Apple environment, but at the same time you don't see the benefits of a all-Windows environment.  And yes, their are many benefits of an all Windows environment, specially in businesses and the enterprise, or with devices like the Xbox.  I work with both in a frequent basis, and they have their positive and negatives things.  Y

    Specific to the T2 chip integration with the iMac Pro, neither you or the article show advantages or additional benefits from a security POV compared to Windows + TPM.  Both companies achieve the same goal in a different way, with the difference that MS have been giving customer these features since Windows 8. 

    As for Surface, for sure Consumer Report rated it highly too but in the end have to *pull recommendation* back because of their users complaints. This is the headline.


    Consumer Reports pulls recommendation for Microsoft Surface laptops

    Consumer Reports' removed its coveted "recommendation" designation from four Microsoft Surface laptops after hearing back from users.


    They recommended it, then they don't recommend it. And this is 4 months after that JD Power ranking. Something has reared its ugly head at last I guess.

    There is a difference between both studies.  Consumers Reports results were based in all Surface Pro's, since the 1st model.  JD Power was specific with the Surface Pro 4.  Consumers Reports even said that their study isn't perfect at all. 

    https://www.pcworld.com/article/3215232/tablet-pc/consumer-reports-surface-laptop-flap-is-based-on-data-from-past-surface-models.html

    That could mean that MS got better between the 1st model and the SP4.  And now the SP4 had a higher consumer satisfaction compared to iPads.  I think you'll never expect a MS device having a higher consumer satisfaction over iPads.  See, things change.




    Like I said, Consumer Report reviews of Surface Pro were always stellar from day one. They had to retract it because of reliability issue. I can't say I'm surprised. 
    Like you posted & deleted, we will know about Surface Pro 4 in 2018 or 2019. :smiley: It's just too soon to know.

    As for benefits of Windows I can't say I have problem with it. As I said, Windows has every features under the sun, remember? That certainly is a benefit. What I have problem with is it just doesn't work very well.
    Quote:

    Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac.


    But I'm sure they don't have this T2 to protect user from webcam spying, do they? Also encrypting & decrypting in real time even when you editing 8K footage. That are already 2 additional benefits. What else? Just have to wait for this site to get a hand on it.

    edited December 2017
  • Reply 31 of 37
    danvmdanvm Posts: 806member
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    I wish I was still working. Writing up a security plan for a department full of these will be a piece of cake. Add MDM software that works with these and the security plan will write itself. Would just have to deal with the troublesome Windows PCs. Now if Apple would just re-release a compatible server and Macs would dominate secure government organizations. 
    Interesting how one government organization, the USA DoD, see no issues with Windows security.  They announced the deployment of Windows 10 in 4 million devices "based on the need to strengthen our cybersecurity posture while concurrently streamlining the IT operating environment.".

    https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/688721/dod-wide-windows-10-rapid-deployment-to-boost-cybersecurity/

    I don't see how bring back the XServe will make Apple dominant in government organizations, when Windows Server and Linux are far more capable than macOS Server.
    DoD adjusts their cyber security rules to meet their needs. Are their systems secure? It all depends on who you ask and who is responsible for accepting the risk.

    Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies. I worked for DOE and we actually had higher security than DoD.

    Bitlocker have been part of Windows since v8.  And in Windows 10 BitLocker, encryption works with TPM chips that come with most business/enterprise PC's (for example, Thinkpads had TPM chips for +10 years).  And it even works with Windows Hello, which has facial recognition, something missing in the iMac Pro. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/device-security/bitlocker/bitlocker-device-encryption-overview-windows-10

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/access-protection/hello-for-business/hello-why-pin-is-better-than-password

    And MS provide tools to manage it, not 3rd party tools needed. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-desktop-optimization-pack/mbam-v25/about-mbam-25





    And Apple has FileVault for 10+ years. Your point?

    I was responding to @Rob53, who mentioned that "Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies."  I already knew that OS X / macOS had FileVault for many years.
    To be clear, this T2 chip is a whole another level than BitLocker or FileVault. This is much more than that. This can prevent suspicious softwares from booting itself along with OSX, can prevent suspicious software using your webcam to spy on you.. for example. This is what I call true innovation. Certainly more innovative than slim keyboard or Touch Bar (which just happen to replace physical keys with touch screen). This should be in every MacBook Pro shipped. My guess is we will see it soon.  
    Secure Boot, Trusted Boot, ELAM, and Measured Boot, which part of Windows since v8, does the same thing, protect the system boot process,

    https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/dn168167.aspx

    The only requirement is UEFI and a TPM chip, which are very common in PCs a few years back.  I agree with what you said, this type of security should be part of every Mac as it is with Windows.  Too bad it's only on the iMac Pro.

    They might have it but software solution like this will never work as good as Apple solution that integrated & designed specifically for the task on specific machine. This needs to be on laptop ASAP. 
    The security mechanisms in Windows 8/10 require or works better when the devices has a TPM chip, so it's not a software-only solution.  The T2 chip may do more than a TPM chip.  But from a security POV, the article doesn't mention anything different or better compared to what MS have done since Windows 8 and a TPM chip.  If find interesting how MS implemented those security mechanisms 5 years ago as part of every Windows 8 version, while Apple have it now, only in the iMac Pro. 
    Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac. The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases. 
    It’s not different from Android that they also have many things first but never works as well.

    It's nice to see how a Mac integrates with an iPad and iPhone.  The same can be said of Windows integrating with the XBox, Office 365, SQL, Exchange and SharePoint.  Apple isn't the only one that integrates with products they own.

     I think what many people failed to grasp is Apple has its own standard to uphold while many companies, Microsoft included, doesn’t. And even if they want to have a standard they can’t because they don’t control every aspects of their product.

    Do you think MS has no control on XBox and the Surface devices?

    Windows isn't written for specific software or hardware so it will never be considered an integration system, just like housing estate never built for specific owner.
    And in case of iMac Pro it's just go another level with Apple computer talking to Apple chip (T2) through Apple software (OSX) on the machine Apple approve everything. Apple is just years ahead of Microsoft in this case & it will take years for Microsoft to catch up if at all but from my experience with Microsoft products I won't hold my breath frankly.

    The level of integration of Apple is mostly based in hardware, while MS is based in software and services  For example, macOS/Mac have no integration with the Xbox, while it works without issues with Windows.  Another example is how well Windows integrates with Active Directory, something macOS lacks.  Or the excellent integration of MS Office with Office 365 cloud apps, and MS ERP and server applications, while iWorks does nothing.  See, Apple is not the only one that have a better integration with their products.


    And it will be much worse if the rumour about Microsoft quitting Surface hardware is true. Whatever it is it already looking bad for Surface. From USA Today:

    Consumer Reports has removed its coveted “recommendation” designation for four Microsoft Surface laptops it had previously blessed with such status.
    At issue, the publication says, is the “predicted reliability” of the Microsoft machines compared to most other brands, which Consumer Reports said was worse by a "statistically significant margin."
    Consumer Reports based its decision on the results of an annual subscriber survey about the products such people own and use.

    Something just never changes...

    MS already denied is quitting the Surface business,

    http://www.techradar.com/news/microsoft-denies-its-killing-its-surface-products

    http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-panos-panay-not-killing-surface-2017-10

    And the Consumers Reports study was based from the first Surface Pro model to the latest, at the time the Surface Pro 4.  The Surface Pro 4 by itself was a big step forward.  It even had a better consumer satisfaction compared to iPads. 

    https://9to5mac.com/2017/04/06/microsoft-edges-out-apple-for-top-spot-in-j-d-power-tablet-survey/

    I suppose that a device that has a better consumer satisfaction rating than iPads has too be good, don't you think?  So yes, things can change.






    Well, I'm sure glad that macOS has no integration with Xbox. lol. It would be strange if it has, but that is missing my point entirely.

    The examples I gave were to respond your post,

    "Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac. The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases." 

    It's easy to for you see the benefits of an all Apple environment, but at the same time you don't see the benefits of a all-Windows environment.  And yes, their are many benefits of an all Windows environment, specially in businesses and the enterprise, or with devices like the Xbox.  I work with both in a frequent basis, and they have their positive and negatives things.  Y

    Specific to the T2 chip integration with the iMac Pro, neither you or the article show advantages or additional benefits from a security POV compared to Windows + TPM.  Both companies achieve the same goal in a different way, with the difference that MS have been giving customer these features since Windows 8. 

    As for Surface, for sure Consumer Report rated it highly too but in the end have to *pull recommendation* back because of their users complaints. This is the headline.


    Consumer Reports pulls recommendation for Microsoft Surface laptops

    Consumer Reports' removed its coveted "recommendation" designation from four Microsoft Surface laptops after hearing back from users.


    They recommended it, then they don't recommend it. And this is 4 months after that JD Power ranking. Something has reared its ugly head at last I guess.

    There is a difference between both studies.  Consumers Reports results were based in all Surface Pro's, since the 1st model.  JD Power was specific with the Surface Pro 4.  Consumers Reports even said that their study isn't perfect at all. 

    https://www.pcworld.com/article/3215232/tablet-pc/consumer-reports-surface-laptop-flap-is-based-on-data-from-past-surface-models.html

    That could mean that MS got better between the 1st model and the SP4.  And now the SP4 had a higher consumer satisfaction compared to iPads.  I think you'll never expect a MS device having a higher consumer satisfaction over iPads.  See, things change.




    Like I said, Consumer Report reviews of Surface Pro were always stellar from day one. They had to retract it because of reliability issue. I can't say I'm surprised. 
    Like you posted & deleted, we will know about Surface Pro 4 in 2018 or 2019. :smiley: 

    Here is a line from the article,

    “Essentially, our analysis isn’t of the Surface laptops or any specific model line or family,” a Consumer Reports spokesman explained in an email. “Rather we conduct annual laptops and tablets brand reliability surveys. We are not making claims about a specific laptop or tablet model released at a specific point in time. We are making reliability predictions at the brand level, based on the devices purchased between 2014 and the first quarter of 2017.”

    So the results were based from a list of products, not a specific device.  And the predictions are at the brand level.  JD Powers focused in the latest Surface model at the time, the SP4, were consumers, not JD Powers, had the SP4 over the iPad.  What would happen in 2018?  You, neither do I know.  What would you never expect was a MS device could have a higher consumer satisfaction, and it happened with the SP4.  Now Time magazine had the Surface Notebook in the Best Gadgets of 2017 list.   Things are changing...

    As for benefits of Windows I can't say I have problem with it. As I said, Windows has every features under the sun, remember? That certainly is a benefit. What I have problem with is it just doesn't work very well.
    Quote:

    Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac.
    You left something in your comment,

    "Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac.  The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases."  

    And my response was based in the context of integration.  Again, what benefit or advantage from a security POV does the integration of the T2 chip in the iMac Pro gives over the Windows + TPM solution?


  • Reply 32 of 37
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    I wish I was still working. Writing up a security plan for a department full of these will be a piece of cake. Add MDM software that works with these and the security plan will write itself. Would just have to deal with the troublesome Windows PCs. Now if Apple would just re-release a compatible server and Macs would dominate secure government organizations. 
    Interesting how one government organization, the USA DoD, see no issues with Windows security.  They announced the deployment of Windows 10 in 4 million devices "based on the need to strengthen our cybersecurity posture while concurrently streamlining the IT operating environment.".

    https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/688721/dod-wide-windows-10-rapid-deployment-to-boost-cybersecurity/

    I don't see how bring back the XServe will make Apple dominant in government organizations, when Windows Server and Linux are far more capable than macOS Server.
    DoD adjusts their cyber security rules to meet their needs. Are their systems secure? It all depends on who you ask and who is responsible for accepting the risk.

    Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies. I worked for DOE and we actually had higher security than DoD.

    Bitlocker have been part of Windows since v8.  And in Windows 10 BitLocker, encryption works with TPM chips that come with most business/enterprise PC's (for example, Thinkpads had TPM chips for +10 years).  And it even works with Windows Hello, which has facial recognition, something missing in the iMac Pro. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/device-security/bitlocker/bitlocker-device-encryption-overview-windows-10

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/access-protection/hello-for-business/hello-why-pin-is-better-than-password

    And MS provide tools to manage it, not 3rd party tools needed. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-desktop-optimization-pack/mbam-v25/about-mbam-25





    And Apple has FileVault for 10+ years. Your point?

    I was responding to @Rob53, who mentioned that "Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies."  I already knew that OS X / macOS had FileVault for many years.
    To be clear, this T2 chip is a whole another level than BitLocker or FileVault. This is much more than that. This can prevent suspicious softwares from booting itself along with OSX, can prevent suspicious software using your webcam to spy on you.. for example. This is what I call true innovation. Certainly more innovative than slim keyboard or Touch Bar (which just happen to replace physical keys with touch screen). This should be in every MacBook Pro shipped. My guess is we will see it soon.  
    Secure Boot, Trusted Boot, ELAM, and Measured Boot, which part of Windows since v8, does the same thing, protect the system boot process,

    https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/dn168167.aspx

    The only requirement is UEFI and a TPM chip, which are very common in PCs a few years back.  I agree with what you said, this type of security should be part of every Mac as it is with Windows.  Too bad it's only on the iMac Pro.

    They might have it but software solution like this will never work as good as Apple solution that integrated & designed specifically for the task on specific machine. This needs to be on laptop ASAP. 
    The security mechanisms in Windows 8/10 require or works better when the devices has a TPM chip, so it's not a software-only solution.  The T2 chip may do more than a TPM chip.  But from a security POV, the article doesn't mention anything different or better compared to what MS have done since Windows 8 and a TPM chip.  If find interesting how MS implemented those security mechanisms 5 years ago as part of every Windows 8 version, while Apple have it now, only in the iMac Pro. 
    Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac. The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases. 
    It’s not different from Android that they also have many things first but never works as well.

    It's nice to see how a Mac integrates with an iPad and iPhone.  The same can be said of Windows integrating with the XBox, Office 365, SQL, Exchange and SharePoint.  Apple isn't the only one that integrates with products they own.

     I think what many people failed to grasp is Apple has its own standard to uphold while many companies, Microsoft included, doesn’t. And even if they want to have a standard they can’t because they don’t control every aspects of their product.

    Do you think MS has no control on XBox and the Surface devices?

    Windows isn't written for specific software or hardware so it will never be considered an integration system, just like housing estate never built for specific owner.
    And in case of iMac Pro it's just go another level with Apple computer talking to Apple chip (T2) through Apple software (OSX) on the machine Apple approve everything. Apple is just years ahead of Microsoft in this case & it will take years for Microsoft to catch up if at all but from my experience with Microsoft products I won't hold my breath frankly.

    The level of integration of Apple is mostly based in hardware, while MS is based in software and services  For example, macOS/Mac have no integration with the Xbox, while it works without issues with Windows.  Another example is how well Windows integrates with Active Directory, something macOS lacks.  Or the excellent integration of MS Office with Office 365 cloud apps, and MS ERP and server applications, while iWorks does nothing.  See, Apple is not the only one that have a better integration with their products.


    And it will be much worse if the rumour about Microsoft quitting Surface hardware is true. Whatever it is it already looking bad for Surface. From USA Today:

    Consumer Reports has removed its coveted “recommendation” designation for four Microsoft Surface laptops it had previously blessed with such status.
    At issue, the publication says, is the “predicted reliability” of the Microsoft machines compared to most other brands, which Consumer Reports said was worse by a "statistically significant margin."
    Consumer Reports based its decision on the results of an annual subscriber survey about the products such people own and use.

    Something just never changes...

    MS already denied is quitting the Surface business,

    http://www.techradar.com/news/microsoft-denies-its-killing-its-surface-products

    http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-panos-panay-not-killing-surface-2017-10

    And the Consumers Reports study was based from the first Surface Pro model to the latest, at the time the Surface Pro 4.  The Surface Pro 4 by itself was a big step forward.  It even had a better consumer satisfaction compared to iPads. 

    https://9to5mac.com/2017/04/06/microsoft-edges-out-apple-for-top-spot-in-j-d-power-tablet-survey/

    I suppose that a device that has a better consumer satisfaction rating than iPads has too be good, don't you think?  So yes, things can change.






    Well, I'm sure glad that macOS has no integration with Xbox. lol. It would be strange if it has, but that is missing my point entirely.

    The examples I gave were to respond your post,

    "Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac. The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases." 

    It's easy to for you see the benefits of an all Apple environment, but at the same time you don't see the benefits of a all-Windows environment.  And yes, their are many benefits of an all Windows environment, specially in businesses and the enterprise, or with devices like the Xbox.  I work with both in a frequent basis, and they have their positive and negatives things.  Y

    Specific to the T2 chip integration with the iMac Pro, neither you or the article show advantages or additional benefits from a security POV compared to Windows + TPM.  Both companies achieve the same goal in a different way, with the difference that MS have been giving customer these features since Windows 8. 

    As for Surface, for sure Consumer Report rated it highly too but in the end have to *pull recommendation* back because of their users complaints. This is the headline.


    Consumer Reports pulls recommendation for Microsoft Surface laptops

    Consumer Reports' removed its coveted "recommendation" designation from four Microsoft Surface laptops after hearing back from users.


    They recommended it, then they don't recommend it. And this is 4 months after that JD Power ranking. Something has reared its ugly head at last I guess.

    There is a difference between both studies.  Consumers Reports results were based in all Surface Pro's, since the 1st model.  JD Power was specific with the Surface Pro 4.  Consumers Reports even said that their study isn't perfect at all. 

    https://www.pcworld.com/article/3215232/tablet-pc/consumer-reports-surface-laptop-flap-is-based-on-data-from-past-surface-models.html

    That could mean that MS got better between the 1st model and the SP4.  And now the SP4 had a higher consumer satisfaction compared to iPads.  I think you'll never expect a MS device having a higher consumer satisfaction over iPads.  See, things change.




    Like I said, Consumer Report reviews of Surface Pro were always stellar from day one. They had to retract it because of reliability issue. I can't say I'm surprised. 
    Like you posted & deleted, we will know about Surface Pro 4 in 2018 or 2019. :smiley: 

    Here is a line from the article,

    “Essentially, our analysis isn’t of the Surface laptops or any specific model line or family,” a Consumer Reports spokesman explained in an email. “Rather we conduct annual laptops and tablets brand reliability surveys. We are not making claims about a specific laptop or tablet model released at a specific point in time. We are making reliability predictions at the brand level, based on the devices purchased between 2014 and the first quarter of 2017.”

    So the results were based from a list of products, not a specific device.  And the predictions are at the brand level.  JD Powers focused in the latest Surface model at the time, the SP4, were consumers, not JD Powers, had the SP4 over the iPad.  What would happen in 2018?  You, neither do I know.  What would you never expect was a MS device could have a higher consumer satisfaction, and it happened with the SP4.  Now Time magazine had the Surface Notebook in the Best Gadgets of 2017 list.   Things are changing...

    As for benefits of Windows I can't say I have problem with it. As I said, Windows has every features under the sun, remember? That certainly is a benefit. What I have problem with is it just doesn't work very well.
    Quote:

    Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac.
    You left something in your comment,

    "Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac.  The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases."  

    And my response was based in the context of integration.  Again, what benefit or advantage from a security POV does the integration of the T2 chip in the iMac Pro gives over the Windows + TPM solution?


    Frankly the comment about JD Power is ridiculous. I didn't switch to Mac because of JD Power. I didn't even know about its existence then, so why should I "expect" anything from them?
    I glance at their method & what give Surface Pro 4 ahead just seems flimsy but anyway I don't have any care of it. Never on JD Power website even once. The fact that it's high ranking in JD Power doesn't mean it won't have any issue later just like when Consumer Report gave previous Surface a high ranking.

    As for my quote, yes integration of Apple hardware & software has proved to be superior method. That's why I'm willing to spend more for Mac, and don't have any plan to spend less for PC anytime soon.
    You asked "what benefit or advantage from a security POV does the integration of the T2 chip in the iMac Pro gives over the Windows + TPM solution?", well, if it's like any solution on PC I had used then isn't the answer obvious? Maybe you should look at a sentences above or my previous post that already cited 2 examples? Should I bold them for you?
    edited December 2017
  • Reply 33 of 37
    danvmdanvm Posts: 806member
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    I wish I was still working. Writing up a security plan for a department full of these will be a piece of cake. Add MDM software that works with these and the security plan will write itself. Would just have to deal with the troublesome Windows PCs. Now if Apple would just re-release a compatible server and Macs would dominate secure government organizations. 
    Interesting how one government organization, the USA DoD, see no issues with Windows security.  They announced the deployment of Windows 10 in 4 million devices "based on the need to strengthen our cybersecurity posture while concurrently streamlining the IT operating environment.".

    https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/688721/dod-wide-windows-10-rapid-deployment-to-boost-cybersecurity/

    I don't see how bring back the XServe will make Apple dominant in government organizations, when Windows Server and Linux are far more capable than macOS Server.
    DoD adjusts their cyber security rules to meet their needs. Are their systems secure? It all depends on who you ask and who is responsible for accepting the risk.

    Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies. I worked for DOE and we actually had higher security than DoD.

    Bitlocker have been part of Windows since v8.  And in Windows 10 BitLocker, encryption works with TPM chips that come with most business/enterprise PC's (for example, Thinkpads had TPM chips for +10 years).  And it even works with Windows Hello, which has facial recognition, something missing in the iMac Pro. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/device-security/bitlocker/bitlocker-device-encryption-overview-windows-10

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/access-protection/hello-for-business/hello-why-pin-is-better-than-password

    And MS provide tools to manage it, not 3rd party tools needed. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-desktop-optimization-pack/mbam-v25/about-mbam-25





    And Apple has FileVault for 10+ years. Your point?

    I was responding to @Rob53, who mentioned that "Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies."  I already knew that OS X / macOS had FileVault for many years.
    To be clear, this T2 chip is a whole another level than BitLocker or FileVault. This is much more than that. This can prevent suspicious softwares from booting itself along with OSX, can prevent suspicious software using your webcam to spy on you.. for example. This is what I call true innovation. Certainly more innovative than slim keyboard or Touch Bar (which just happen to replace physical keys with touch screen). This should be in every MacBook Pro shipped. My guess is we will see it soon.  
    Secure Boot, Trusted Boot, ELAM, and Measured Boot, which part of Windows since v8, does the same thing, protect the system boot process,

    https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/dn168167.aspx

    The only requirement is UEFI and a TPM chip, which are very common in PCs a few years back.  I agree with what you said, this type of security should be part of every Mac as it is with Windows.  Too bad it's only on the iMac Pro.

    They might have it but software solution like this will never work as good as Apple solution that integrated & designed specifically for the task on specific machine. This needs to be on laptop ASAP. 
    The security mechanisms in Windows 8/10 require or works better when the devices has a TPM chip, so it's not a software-only solution.  The T2 chip may do more than a TPM chip.  But from a security POV, the article doesn't mention anything different or better compared to what MS have done since Windows 8 and a TPM chip.  If find interesting how MS implemented those security mechanisms 5 years ago as part of every Windows 8 version, while Apple have it now, only in the iMac Pro. 
    Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac. The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases. 
    It’s not different from Android that they also have many things first but never works as well.

    It's nice to see how a Mac integrates with an iPad and iPhone.  The same can be said of Windows integrating with the XBox, Office 365, SQL, Exchange and SharePoint.  Apple isn't the only one that integrates with products they own.

     I think what many people failed to grasp is Apple has its own standard to uphold while many companies, Microsoft included, doesn’t. And even if they want to have a standard they can’t because they don’t control every aspects of their product.

    Do you think MS has no control on XBox and the Surface devices?

    Windows isn't written for specific software or hardware so it will never be considered an integration system, just like housing estate never built for specific owner.
    And in case of iMac Pro it's just go another level with Apple computer talking to Apple chip (T2) through Apple software (OSX) on the machine Apple approve everything. Apple is just years ahead of Microsoft in this case & it will take years for Microsoft to catch up if at all but from my experience with Microsoft products I won't hold my breath frankly.

    The level of integration of Apple is mostly based in hardware, while MS is based in software and services  For example, macOS/Mac have no integration with the Xbox, while it works without issues with Windows.  Another example is how well Windows integrates with Active Directory, something macOS lacks.  Or the excellent integration of MS Office with Office 365 cloud apps, and MS ERP and server applications, while iWorks does nothing.  See, Apple is not the only one that have a better integration with their products.


    And it will be much worse if the rumour about Microsoft quitting Surface hardware is true. Whatever it is it already looking bad for Surface. From USA Today:

    Consumer Reports has removed its coveted “recommendation” designation for four Microsoft Surface laptops it had previously blessed with such status.
    At issue, the publication says, is the “predicted reliability” of the Microsoft machines compared to most other brands, which Consumer Reports said was worse by a "statistically significant margin."
    Consumer Reports based its decision on the results of an annual subscriber survey about the products such people own and use.

    Something just never changes...

    MS already denied is quitting the Surface business,

    http://www.techradar.com/news/microsoft-denies-its-killing-its-surface-products

    http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-panos-panay-not-killing-surface-2017-10

    And the Consumers Reports study was based from the first Surface Pro model to the latest, at the time the Surface Pro 4.  The Surface Pro 4 by itself was a big step forward.  It even had a better consumer satisfaction compared to iPads. 

    https://9to5mac.com/2017/04/06/microsoft-edges-out-apple-for-top-spot-in-j-d-power-tablet-survey/

    I suppose that a device that has a better consumer satisfaction rating than iPads has too be good, don't you think?  So yes, things can change.






    Well, I'm sure glad that macOS has no integration with Xbox. lol. It would be strange if it has, but that is missing my point entirely.

    The examples I gave were to respond your post,

    "Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac. The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases." 

    It's easy to for you see the benefits of an all Apple environment, but at the same time you don't see the benefits of a all-Windows environment.  And yes, their are many benefits of an all Windows environment, specially in businesses and the enterprise, or with devices like the Xbox.  I work with both in a frequent basis, and they have their positive and negatives things.  Y

    Specific to the T2 chip integration with the iMac Pro, neither you or the article show advantages or additional benefits from a security POV compared to Windows + TPM.  Both companies achieve the same goal in a different way, with the difference that MS have been giving customer these features since Windows 8. 

    As for Surface, for sure Consumer Report rated it highly too but in the end have to *pull recommendation* back because of their users complaints. This is the headline.


    Consumer Reports pulls recommendation for Microsoft Surface laptops

    Consumer Reports' removed its coveted "recommendation" designation from four Microsoft Surface laptops after hearing back from users.


    They recommended it, then they don't recommend it. And this is 4 months after that JD Power ranking. Something has reared its ugly head at last I guess.

    There is a difference between both studies.  Consumers Reports results were based in all Surface Pro's, since the 1st model.  JD Power was specific with the Surface Pro 4.  Consumers Reports even said that their study isn't perfect at all. 

    https://www.pcworld.com/article/3215232/tablet-pc/consumer-reports-surface-laptop-flap-is-based-on-data-from-past-surface-models.html

    That could mean that MS got better between the 1st model and the SP4.  And now the SP4 had a higher consumer satisfaction compared to iPads.  I think you'll never expect a MS device having a higher consumer satisfaction over iPads.  See, things change.




    Like I said, Consumer Report reviews of Surface Pro were always stellar from day one. They had to retract it because of reliability issue. I can't say I'm surprised. 
    Like you posted & deleted, we will know about Surface Pro 4 in 2018 or 2019. :smiley: 

    Here is a line from the article,

    “Essentially, our analysis isn’t of the Surface laptops or any specific model line or family,” a Consumer Reports spokesman explained in an email. “Rather we conduct annual laptops and tablets brand reliability surveys. We are not making claims about a specific laptop or tablet model released at a specific point in time. We are making reliability predictions at the brand level, based on the devices purchased between 2014 and the first quarter of 2017.”

    So the results were based from a list of products, not a specific device.  And the predictions are at the brand level.  JD Powers focused in the latest Surface model at the time, the SP4, were consumers, not JD Powers, had the SP4 over the iPad.  What would happen in 2018?  You, neither do I know.  What would you never expect was a MS device could have a higher consumer satisfaction, and it happened with the SP4.  Now Time magazine had the Surface Notebook in the Best Gadgets of 2017 list.   Things are changing...

    As for benefits of Windows I can't say I have problem with it. As I said, Windows has every features under the sun, remember? That certainly is a benefit. What I have problem with is it just doesn't work very well.
    Quote:

    Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac.
    You left something in your comment,

    "Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac.  The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases."  

    And my response was based in the context of integration.  Again, what benefit or advantage from a security POV does the integration of the T2 chip in the iMac Pro gives over the Windows + TPM solution?


    Frankly the comment about JD Power is ridiculous. I didn't switch to Mac because of JD Power. I didn't even know about its existence then, so why should I "expect" anything from them?
    I glance at their method & what give Surface Pro 4 ahead just seems flimsy but anyway I don't have any care of it. Never on JD Power website even once.

    Since you think that JD Powers results are useless (even though they had a high score for the iPad too), then we should ignore Consumers Reports, since "the spokesman acknowledged the problem with using past data on a new product that wasn’t even shipping when the survey took place. “It’s not 100 percent perfect,” the spokesman said of the publication’s methodology."  Looks like you can trust no one. 

    The fact that it's high ranking in JD Power doesn't mean it won't have any issue later just like when Consumer Report gave previous Surface a high ranking.
    The same can be said of Consumer Reports, that recommended the Macbook Pro, and now there is the long list of users with keyboard issues.  Even Grubber has to post about it,

    https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/17/johnston-macbook-keyboard
    http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-macbook-pro-keyboard-fix-is-absurd-2017-10
    https://www.cultofmac.com/468811/2016-macbook-pro-owners-say-apples-new-keyboard-buggy/

    Do you think that Consumer Reports should remove the Macbook Pro from the recommended list?
    As for my quote, yes integration of Apple hardware & software has proved to be superior method. That's why I'm willing to spend more for Mac, and don't have any plan to spend less for PC anytime soon.
    You asked "what benefit or advantage from a security POV does the integration of the T2 chip in the iMac Pro gives over the Windows + TPM solution?", well, if it's like any solution on PC I had used then isn't the answer obvious? Maybe you should look at a sentences above or my previous post that already cited 2 examples? Should I bold them for you?

    Isn't too obvious for me.  Can you be more specific?  For example, why Secure Boot is more secure in an iMac Pro + T2 than Windows 10 +TPM?  Your previous answer mention how happy you are with OS X and the integration method. No mention of details about Secure Boot or other security mechanism. 

  • Reply 34 of 37
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    I wish I was still working. Writing up a security plan for a department full of these will be a piece of cake. Add MDM software that works with these and the security plan will write itself. Would just have to deal with the troublesome Windows PCs. Now if Apple would just re-release a compatible server and Macs would dominate secure government organizations. 
    Interesting how one government organization, the USA DoD, see no issues with Windows security.  They announced the deployment of Windows 10 in 4 million devices "based on the need to strengthen our cybersecurity posture while concurrently streamlining the IT operating environment.".

    https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/688721/dod-wide-windows-10-rapid-deployment-to-boost-cybersecurity/

    I don't see how bring back the XServe will make Apple dominant in government organizations, when Windows Server and Linux are far more capable than macOS Server.
    DoD adjusts their cyber security rules to meet their needs. Are their systems secure? It all depends on who you ask and who is responsible for accepting the risk.

    Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies. I worked for DOE and we actually had higher security than DoD.

    Bitlocker have been part of Windows since v8.  And in Windows 10 BitLocker, encryption works with TPM chips that come with most business/enterprise PC's (for example, Thinkpads had TPM chips for +10 years).  And it even works with Windows Hello, which has facial recognition, something missing in the iMac Pro. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/device-security/bitlocker/bitlocker-device-encryption-overview-windows-10

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/access-protection/hello-for-business/hello-why-pin-is-better-than-password

    And MS provide tools to manage it, not 3rd party tools needed. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-desktop-optimization-pack/mbam-v25/about-mbam-25





    And Apple has FileVault for 10+ years. Your point?

    I was responding to @Rob53, who mentioned that "Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies."  I already knew that OS X / macOS had FileVault for many years.
    To be clear, this T2 chip is a whole another level than BitLocker or FileVault. This is much more than that. This can prevent suspicious softwares from booting itself along with OSX, can prevent suspicious software using your webcam to spy on you.. for example. This is what I call true innovation. Certainly more innovative than slim keyboard or Touch Bar (which just happen to replace physical keys with touch screen). This should be in every MacBook Pro shipped. My guess is we will see it soon.  
    Secure Boot, Trusted Boot, ELAM, and Measured Boot, which part of Windows since v8, does the same thing, protect the system boot process,

    https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/dn168167.aspx

    The only requirement is UEFI and a TPM chip, which are very common in PCs a few years back.  I agree with what you said, this type of security should be part of every Mac as it is with Windows.  Too bad it's only on the iMac Pro.

    They might have it but software solution like this will never work as good as Apple solution that integrated & designed specifically for the task on specific machine. This needs to be on laptop ASAP. 
    The security mechanisms in Windows 8/10 require or works better when the devices has a TPM chip, so it's not a software-only solution.  The T2 chip may do more than a TPM chip.  But from a security POV, the article doesn't mention anything different or better compared to what MS have done since Windows 8 and a TPM chip.  If find interesting how MS implemented those security mechanisms 5 years ago as part of every Windows 8 version, while Apple have it now, only in the iMac Pro. 
    Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac. The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases. 
    It’s not different from Android that they also have many things first but never works as well.

    It's nice to see how a Mac integrates with an iPad and iPhone.  The same can be said of Windows integrating with the XBox, Office 365, SQL, Exchange and SharePoint.  Apple isn't the only one that integrates with products they own.

     I think what many people failed to grasp is Apple has its own standard to uphold while many companies, Microsoft included, doesn’t. And even if they want to have a standard they can’t because they don’t control every aspects of their product.

    Do you think MS has no control on XBox and the Surface devices?

    Windows isn't written for specific software or hardware so it will never be considered an integration system, just like housing estate never built for specific owner.
    And in case of iMac Pro it's just go another level with Apple computer talking to Apple chip (T2) through Apple software (OSX) on the machine Apple approve everything. Apple is just years ahead of Microsoft in this case & it will take years for Microsoft to catch up if at all but from my experience with Microsoft products I won't hold my breath frankly.

    The level of integration of Apple is mostly based in hardware, while MS is based in software and services  For example, macOS/Mac have no integration with the Xbox, while it works without issues with Windows.  Another example is how well Windows integrates with Active Directory, something macOS lacks.  Or the excellent integration of MS Office with Office 365 cloud apps, and MS ERP and server applications, while iWorks does nothing.  See, Apple is not the only one that have a better integration with their products.


    And it will be much worse if the rumour about Microsoft quitting Surface hardware is true. Whatever it is it already looking bad for Surface. From USA Today:

    Consumer Reports has removed its coveted “recommendation” designation for four Microsoft Surface laptops it had previously blessed with such status.
    At issue, the publication says, is the “predicted reliability” of the Microsoft machines compared to most other brands, which Consumer Reports said was worse by a "statistically significant margin."
    Consumer Reports based its decision on the results of an annual subscriber survey about the products such people own and use.

    Something just never changes...

    MS already denied is quitting the Surface business,

    http://www.techradar.com/news/microsoft-denies-its-killing-its-surface-products

    http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-panos-panay-not-killing-surface-2017-10

    And the Consumers Reports study was based from the first Surface Pro model to the latest, at the time the Surface Pro 4.  The Surface Pro 4 by itself was a big step forward.  It even had a better consumer satisfaction compared to iPads. 

    https://9to5mac.com/2017/04/06/microsoft-edges-out-apple-for-top-spot-in-j-d-power-tablet-survey/

    I suppose that a device that has a better consumer satisfaction rating than iPads has too be good, don't you think?  So yes, things can change.






    Well, I'm sure glad that macOS has no integration with Xbox. lol. It would be strange if it has, but that is missing my point entirely.

    The examples I gave were to respond your post,

    "Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac. The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases." 

    It's easy to for you see the benefits of an all Apple environment, but at the same time you don't see the benefits of a all-Windows environment.  And yes, their are many benefits of an all Windows environment, specially in businesses and the enterprise, or with devices like the Xbox.  I work with both in a frequent basis, and they have their positive and negatives things.  Y

    Specific to the T2 chip integration with the iMac Pro, neither you or the article show advantages or additional benefits from a security POV compared to Windows + TPM.  Both companies achieve the same goal in a different way, with the difference that MS have been giving customer these features since Windows 8. 

    As for Surface, for sure Consumer Report rated it highly too but in the end have to *pull recommendation* back because of their users complaints. This is the headline.


    Consumer Reports pulls recommendation for Microsoft Surface laptops

    Consumer Reports' removed its coveted "recommendation" designation from four Microsoft Surface laptops after hearing back from users.


    They recommended it, then they don't recommend it. And this is 4 months after that JD Power ranking. Something has reared its ugly head at last I guess.

    There is a difference between both studies.  Consumers Reports results were based in all Surface Pro's, since the 1st model.  JD Power was specific with the Surface Pro 4.  Consumers Reports even said that their study isn't perfect at all. 

    https://www.pcworld.com/article/3215232/tablet-pc/consumer-reports-surface-laptop-flap-is-based-on-data-from-past-surface-models.html

    That could mean that MS got better between the 1st model and the SP4.  And now the SP4 had a higher consumer satisfaction compared to iPads.  I think you'll never expect a MS device having a higher consumer satisfaction over iPads.  See, things change.




    Like I said, Consumer Report reviews of Surface Pro were always stellar from day one. They had to retract it because of reliability issue. I can't say I'm surprised. 
    Like you posted & deleted, we will know about Surface Pro 4 in 2018 or 2019. :smiley: 

    Here is a line from the article,

    “Essentially, our analysis isn’t of the Surface laptops or any specific model line or family,” a Consumer Reports spokesman explained in an email. “Rather we conduct annual laptops and tablets brand reliability surveys. We are not making claims about a specific laptop or tablet model released at a specific point in time. We are making reliability predictions at the brand level, based on the devices purchased between 2014 and the first quarter of 2017.”

    So the results were based from a list of products, not a specific device.  And the predictions are at the brand level.  JD Powers focused in the latest Surface model at the time, the SP4, were consumers, not JD Powers, had the SP4 over the iPad.  What would happen in 2018?  You, neither do I know.  What would you never expect was a MS device could have a higher consumer satisfaction, and it happened with the SP4.  Now Time magazine had the Surface Notebook in the Best Gadgets of 2017 list.   Things are changing...

    As for benefits of Windows I can't say I have problem with it. As I said, Windows has every features under the sun, remember? That certainly is a benefit. What I have problem with is it just doesn't work very well.
    Quote:

    Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac.
    You left something in your comment,

    "Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac.  The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases."  

    And my response was based in the context of integration.  Again, what benefit or advantage from a security POV does the integration of the T2 chip in the iMac Pro gives over the Windows + TPM solution?


    Frankly the comment about JD Power is ridiculous. I didn't switch to Mac because of JD Power. I didn't even know about its existence then, so why should I "expect" anything from them?
    I glance at their method & what give Surface Pro 4 ahead just seems flimsy but anyway I don't have any care of it. Never on JD Power website even once.

    Since you think that JD Powers results are useless (even though they had a high score for the iPad too), then we should ignore Consumers Reports, since "the spokesman acknowledged the problem with using past data on a new product that wasn’t even shipping when the survey took place. “It’s not 100 percent perfect,” the spokesman said of the publication’s methodology."  Looks like you can trust no one. 

    The fact that it's high ranking in JD Power doesn't mean it won't have any issue later just like when Consumer Report gave previous Surface a high ranking.
    The same can be said of Consumer Reports, that recommended the Macbook Pro, and now there is the long list of users with keyboard issues.  Even Grubber has to post about it,

    https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/17/johnston-macbook-keyboard
    http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-macbook-pro-keyboard-fix-is-absurd-2017-10
    https://www.cultofmac.com/468811/2016-macbook-pro-owners-say-apples-new-keyboard-buggy/

    Do you think that Consumer Reports should remove the Macbook Pro from the recommended list?
    As for my quote, yes integration of Apple hardware & software has proved to be superior method. That's why I'm willing to spend more for Mac, and don't have any plan to spend less for PC anytime soon.
    You asked "what benefit or advantage from a security POV does the integration of the T2 chip in the iMac Pro gives over the Windows + TPM solution?", well, if it's like any solution on PC I had used then isn't the answer obvious? Maybe you should look at a sentences above or my previous post that already cited 2 examples? Should I bold them for you?

    Isn't too obvious for me.  Can you be more specific?  For example, why Secure Boot is more secure in an iMac Pro + T2 than Windows 10 +TPM?  Your previous answer mention how happy you are with OS X and the integration method. No mention of details about Secure Boot or other security mechanism. 

    Wow! You seem to be really hurt I'm not worshipping Surface for some reason. What can I say? I didn't buy iPad because of JD Power ranking so yeah it's a bit useless to me. There is this thing called personal experience & if my personal experience is Apple products are much better than Microsoft's, will I change my mind because of some ranking?
    I bet Microsoft would rather be 5th & made some profit off Surface than being 1st & losing money.

    As for Consumer Report report, well I personally don't care about it too. It's just that I'm not surprised Microsoft products aren't reliable. You on the other hand seem to be depend on someone's else opinion for some reason.

    As for Macbook Pro keyboard, I'm not surprised about the review. That's why I'm still using Macbook Air that I have bought 7 years ago (No PC laptop I had ever be with me more than 3 years. They will be useless by that time so here you go. Another experience that Microsoft's products are inferior.) because I don't care for it. It's not a category I care for improvement. I never find any fault on the old keyboard so it doesn't draw me to buy one. :shrug:

    As for why Apple's will be "more secure" than Microsoft? Well, easy. Because when Apple get out of their lazy ass and put some effort it'll always be better than Microsoft's solution. I lost count how many times I have a "wow" moments when I switched to OSX despite I'm switching on Lion which Mac users thought was the worst OSX in years. So history tells me it will be much better than Microsoft's. Doing more things & doing it much better. There are no doubt in my mind. 

    You know you should have opinion by yourself. Don't be rely on other's so you don't be hurt when someone tell you your favourite brand is shit, or be excited when some website gave it 5 stars. It's our opinion, form from experiences, that counts. When your machine broke no 5 stars review from any websites can fix it. It's your money that will. Those website can only retract recommendations. :)
    edited December 2017
  • Reply 35 of 37
    danvmdanvm Posts: 806member
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    I wish I was still working. Writing up a security plan for a department full of these will be a piece of cake. Add MDM software that works with these and the security plan will write itself. Would just have to deal with the troublesome Windows PCs. Now if Apple would just re-release a compatible server and Macs would dominate secure government organizations. 
    Interesting how one government organization, the USA DoD, see no issues with Windows security.  They announced the deployment of Windows 10 in 4 million devices "based on the need to strengthen our cybersecurity posture while concurrently streamlining the IT operating environment.".

    https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/688721/dod-wide-windows-10-rapid-deployment-to-boost-cybersecurity/

    I don't see how bring back the XServe will make Apple dominant in government organizations, when Windows Server and Linux are far more capable than macOS Server.
    DoD adjusts their cyber security rules to meet their needs. Are their systems secure? It all depends on who you ask and who is responsible for accepting the risk.

    Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies. I worked for DOE and we actually had higher security than DoD.

    Bitlocker have been part of Windows since v8.  And in Windows 10 BitLocker, encryption works with TPM chips that come with most business/enterprise PC's (for example, Thinkpads had TPM chips for +10 years).  And it even works with Windows Hello, which has facial recognition, something missing in the iMac Pro. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/device-security/bitlocker/bitlocker-device-encryption-overview-windows-10

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/access-protection/hello-for-business/hello-why-pin-is-better-than-password

    And MS provide tools to manage it, not 3rd party tools needed. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-desktop-optimization-pack/mbam-v25/about-mbam-25





    And Apple has FileVault for 10+ years. Your point?

    I was responding to @Rob53, who mentioned that "Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies."  I already knew that OS X / macOS had FileVault for many years.
    To be clear, this T2 chip is a whole another level than BitLocker or FileVault. This is much more than that. This can prevent suspicious softwares from booting itself along with OSX, can prevent suspicious software using your webcam to spy on you.. for example. This is what I call true innovation. Certainly more innovative than slim keyboard or Touch Bar (which just happen to replace physical keys with touch screen). This should be in every MacBook Pro shipped. My guess is we will see it soon.  
    Secure Boot, Trusted Boot, ELAM, and Measured Boot, which part of Windows since v8, does the same thing, protect the system boot process,

    https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/dn168167.aspx

    The only requirement is UEFI and a TPM chip, which are very common in PCs a few years back.  I agree with what you said, this type of security should be part of every Mac as it is with Windows.  Too bad it's only on the iMac Pro.

    They might have it but software solution like this will never work as good as Apple solution that integrated & designed specifically for the task on specific machine. This needs to be on laptop ASAP. 
    The security mechanisms in Windows 8/10 require or works better when the devices has a TPM chip, so it's not a software-only solution.  The T2 chip may do more than a TPM chip.  But from a security POV, the article doesn't mention anything different or better compared to what MS have done since Windows 8 and a TPM chip.  If find interesting how MS implemented those security mechanisms 5 years ago as part of every Windows 8 version, while Apple have it now, only in the iMac Pro. 
    Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac. The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases. 
    It’s not different from Android that they also have many things first but never works as well.

    It's nice to see how a Mac integrates with an iPad and iPhone.  The same can be said of Windows integrating with the XBox, Office 365, SQL, Exchange and SharePoint.  Apple isn't the only one that integrates with products they own.

     I think what many people failed to grasp is Apple has its own standard to uphold while many companies, Microsoft included, doesn’t. And even if they want to have a standard they can’t because they don’t control every aspects of their product.

    Do you think MS has no control on XBox and the Surface devices?

    Windows isn't written for specific software or hardware so it will never be considered an integration system, just like housing estate never built for specific owner.
    And in case of iMac Pro it's just go another level with Apple computer talking to Apple chip (T2) through Apple software (OSX) on the machine Apple approve everything. Apple is just years ahead of Microsoft in this case & it will take years for Microsoft to catch up if at all but from my experience with Microsoft products I won't hold my breath frankly.

    The level of integration of Apple is mostly based in hardware, while MS is based in software and services  For example, macOS/Mac have no integration with the Xbox, while it works without issues with Windows.  Another example is how well Windows integrates with Active Directory, something macOS lacks.  Or the excellent integration of MS Office with Office 365 cloud apps, and MS ERP and server applications, while iWorks does nothing.  See, Apple is not the only one that have a better integration with their products.


    And it will be much worse if the rumour about Microsoft quitting Surface hardware is true. Whatever it is it already looking bad for Surface. From USA Today:

    Consumer Reports has removed its coveted “recommendation” designation for four Microsoft Surface laptops it had previously blessed with such status.
    At issue, the publication says, is the “predicted reliability” of the Microsoft machines compared to most other brands, which Consumer Reports said was worse by a "statistically significant margin."
    Consumer Reports based its decision on the results of an annual subscriber survey about the products such people own and use.

    Something just never changes...

    MS already denied is quitting the Surface business,

    http://www.techradar.com/news/microsoft-denies-its-killing-its-surface-products

    http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-panos-panay-not-killing-surface-2017-10

    And the Consumers Reports study was based from the first Surface Pro model to the latest, at the time the Surface Pro 4.  The Surface Pro 4 by itself was a big step forward.  It even had a better consumer satisfaction compared to iPads. 

    https://9to5mac.com/2017/04/06/microsoft-edges-out-apple-for-top-spot-in-j-d-power-tablet-survey/

    I suppose that a device that has a better consumer satisfaction rating than iPads has too be good, don't you think?  So yes, things can change.






    Well, I'm sure glad that macOS has no integration with Xbox. lol. It would be strange if it has, but that is missing my point entirely.

    The examples I gave were to respond your post,

    "Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac. The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases." 

    It's easy to for you see the benefits of an all Apple environment, but at the same time you don't see the benefits of a all-Windows environment.  And yes, their are many benefits of an all Windows environment, specially in businesses and the enterprise, or with devices like the Xbox.  I work with both in a frequent basis, and they have their positive and negatives things.  Y

    Specific to the T2 chip integration with the iMac Pro, neither you or the article show advantages or additional benefits from a security POV compared to Windows + TPM.  Both companies achieve the same goal in a different way, with the difference that MS have been giving customer these features since Windows 8. 

    As for Surface, for sure Consumer Report rated it highly too but in the end have to *pull recommendation* back because of their users complaints. This is the headline.


    Consumer Reports pulls recommendation for Microsoft Surface laptops

    Consumer Reports' removed its coveted "recommendation" designation from four Microsoft Surface laptops after hearing back from users.


    They recommended it, then they don't recommend it. And this is 4 months after that JD Power ranking. Something has reared its ugly head at last I guess.

    There is a difference between both studies.  Consumers Reports results were based in all Surface Pro's, since the 1st model.  JD Power was specific with the Surface Pro 4.  Consumers Reports even said that their study isn't perfect at all. 

    https://www.pcworld.com/article/3215232/tablet-pc/consumer-reports-surface-laptop-flap-is-based-on-data-from-past-surface-models.html

    That could mean that MS got better between the 1st model and the SP4.  And now the SP4 had a higher consumer satisfaction compared to iPads.  I think you'll never expect a MS device having a higher consumer satisfaction over iPads.  See, things change.




    Like I said, Consumer Report reviews of Surface Pro were always stellar from day one. They had to retract it because of reliability issue. I can't say I'm surprised. 
    Like you posted & deleted, we will know about Surface Pro 4 in 2018 or 2019. :smiley: 

    Here is a line from the article,

    “Essentially, our analysis isn’t of the Surface laptops or any specific model line or family,” a Consumer Reports spokesman explained in an email. “Rather we conduct annual laptops and tablets brand reliability surveys. We are not making claims about a specific laptop or tablet model released at a specific point in time. We are making reliability predictions at the brand level, based on the devices purchased between 2014 and the first quarter of 2017.”

    So the results were based from a list of products, not a specific device.  And the predictions are at the brand level.  JD Powers focused in the latest Surface model at the time, the SP4, were consumers, not JD Powers, had the SP4 over the iPad.  What would happen in 2018?  You, neither do I know.  What would you never expect was a MS device could have a higher consumer satisfaction, and it happened with the SP4.  Now Time magazine had the Surface Notebook in the Best Gadgets of 2017 list.   Things are changing...

    As for benefits of Windows I can't say I have problem with it. As I said, Windows has every features under the sun, remember? That certainly is a benefit. What I have problem with is it just doesn't work very well.
    Quote:

    Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac.
    You left something in your comment,

    "Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac.  The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases."  

    And my response was based in the context of integration.  Again, what benefit or advantage from a security POV does the integration of the T2 chip in the iMac Pro gives over the Windows + TPM solution?


    Frankly the comment about JD Power is ridiculous. I didn't switch to Mac because of JD Power. I didn't even know about its existence then, so why should I "expect" anything from them?
    I glance at their method & what give Surface Pro 4 ahead just seems flimsy but anyway I don't have any care of it. Never on JD Power website even once.

    Since you think that JD Powers results are useless (even though they had a high score for the iPad too), then we should ignore Consumers Reports, since "the spokesman acknowledged the problem with using past data on a new product that wasn’t even shipping when the survey took place. “It’s not 100 percent perfect,” the spokesman said of the publication’s methodology."  Looks like you can trust no one. 

    The fact that it's high ranking in JD Power doesn't mean it won't have any issue later just like when Consumer Report gave previous Surface a high ranking.
    The same can be said of Consumer Reports, that recommended the Macbook Pro, and now there is the long list of users with keyboard issues.  Even Grubber has to post about it,

    https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/17/johnston-macbook-keyboard
    http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-macbook-pro-keyboard-fix-is-absurd-2017-10
    https://www.cultofmac.com/468811/2016-macbook-pro-owners-say-apples-new-keyboard-buggy/

    Do you think that Consumer Reports should remove the Macbook Pro from the recommended list?
    As for my quote, yes integration of Apple hardware & software has proved to be superior method. That's why I'm willing to spend more for Mac, and don't have any plan to spend less for PC anytime soon.
    You asked "what benefit or advantage from a security POV does the integration of the T2 chip in the iMac Pro gives over the Windows + TPM solution?", well, if it's like any solution on PC I had used then isn't the answer obvious? Maybe you should look at a sentences above or my previous post that already cited 2 examples? Should I bold them for you?

    Isn't too obvious for me.  Can you be more specific?  For example, why Secure Boot is more secure in an iMac Pro + T2 than Windows 10 +TPM?  Your previous answer mention how happy you are with OS X and the integration method. No mention of details about Secure Boot or other security mechanism. 

    Wow! You seem to be really hurt I'm not worshipping Surface for some reason. WTH can I say? I didn't buy iPad because of JD Power ranking so yeah it's a bit useless to me. There is this thing called personal experience & if my personal experience is Apple products are much better than Microsoft's, will I change my mind because of some ranking?
    I bet Microsoft would rather be 5th & made some profit off Surface than being 1st & losing money.

    First of all, you were the one who bring the Surface in the conversation.  Second, in my home there are more Apple devices than from MS.  So I have no need to worship Apple or MS devices.  I already have the "personal experience" of using daily a Surface Pro 4 and an iPad, and have no issues seeing when a device is better than other, and see benefits and things that could improve in both.  BTW, do you have a Surface Pro or your comments are based in what you read on the internet?  Wait, you already mention that you move from Windows many years ago.  So your "personal experience" with a Surface is zero.  I'll suggest you that before making a comment from a Surface, or any other product, at least have some "personal experience" with it. 

    BTW, remember that you were the one who bring the Surface into the conversation, with the line from USA Today about Consumer Reports taking it out of the recommended list.  I just posted how JD Powers have it ahead of the iPad, and how Consumer Reports admitted that their study isn't 100% reliable. 

    As for Consumer Report report, well I personally don't care about it too. It's just that I'm not surprised Microsoft products aren't reliable. You on the other hand seem to be depend on someone's else opinion for some reason.

    So why you bring Consumer Reports into the conversation if you don't care about their opinion?  Me?  I own Surface and iPad. My opinion is based in facts from a device I own, not in my experience from a product I used years ago. 


    As for Macbook Pro keyboard, I'm not surprised about the review. That's why I'm still using Macbook Air that I have bought 7 years ago (No PC laptop I had ever be with me more than 3 years. They will be useless by that time so here you go. Another experience that Microsoft's products are inferior.) because I don't care for it. It's not a category I care for improvement. I never find any fault on the old keyboard so it doesn't draw me to buy one. :shrug:

    You should get a better PC then.  Even Phil Schiller mention in a keynote that 600M people own PC's +5 years.  In my personal experience, I had an HP Elitebook for +6 years.  My customers Thinkpads and other business devices have been running +6 years, and got better with Windows 10.  At the same time, I had a 2012 Macbook Air that worked for 4 years.  In my experience, HP Elitebooks are better than Mac.  See how a "personal experience" is different on each person?

    As for why Apple's will be "more secure" than Microsoft? Well, easy. Because when Apple get out of their lazy ass and put some effort it'll always be better than Microsoft's solution. I lost count how many times I have a "wow" moments when I switched to OSX despite I'm switching on Lion which Mac users thought was the worst OSX in years. So history tells me it will be much better than Microsoft's. Doing more things & doing it much better. There are no doubt in my mind.

    I didn't ask why Apple will be more secure.  You mentioned before that "in the case of iMac Pro it's just go another level with Apple computer talking to Apple chip (T2) through Apple software (OSX) on the machine Apple approve everything."  So I ask again, how something like Secure Boot goes to another level in an iMac Pro + T2 compared to Windows 10 + TPM?  And if you don't know, just say it. 

    You know you should have opinion by yourself. Don't be rely on other's so you don't be hurt when someone tell you your favourite brand is shit, or be excited when some website gave it 5 stars. It's our opinion, form from experiences, that counts. When your machine broke no 5 stars review from any websites can fix it. It's your money that can. Those website can only retract recommendations.

    I already have an opinion based in my experience with my Surface Pro 4 and iPad, different from you, since you already mentioned that have no Windows device.  So do your self a favor, and use the devices for some months or years before posting opinions about them, and put in practice your own advice of don't rely on other peoples experience.  And what you said is true about devices and 5-star ratings.  Consumers Reports already did that, and looks the many issues people have with Macbook Pros.  Let's see if Consumers Reports retract their recommendation as they did with the Surface (even though the study wasn't 100% reliable ;) ). 

  • Reply 36 of 37
    danvm said:
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
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    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    I wish I was still working. Writing up a security plan for a department full of these will be a piece of cake. Add MDM software that works with these and the security plan will write itself. Would just have to deal with the troublesome Windows PCs. Now if Apple would just re-release a compatible server and Macs would dominate secure government organizations. 
    Interesting how one government organization, the USA DoD, see no issues with Windows security.  They announced the deployment of Windows 10 in 4 million devices "based on the need to strengthen our cybersecurity posture while concurrently streamlining the IT operating environment.".

    https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/688721/dod-wide-windows-10-rapid-deployment-to-boost-cybersecurity/

    I don't see how bring back the XServe will make Apple dominant in government organizations, when Windows Server and Linux are far more capable than macOS Server.
    DoD adjusts their cyber security rules to meet their needs. Are their systems secure? It all depends on who you ask and who is responsible for accepting the risk.

    Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies. I worked for DOE and we actually had higher security than DoD.

    Bitlocker have been part of Windows since v8.  And in Windows 10 BitLocker, encryption works with TPM chips that come with most business/enterprise PC's (for example, Thinkpads had TPM chips for +10 years).  And it even works with Windows Hello, which has facial recognition, something missing in the iMac Pro. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/device-security/bitlocker/bitlocker-device-encryption-overview-windows-10

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/access-protection/hello-for-business/hello-why-pin-is-better-than-password

    And MS provide tools to manage it, not 3rd party tools needed. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-desktop-optimization-pack/mbam-v25/about-mbam-25





    And Apple has FileVault for 10+ years. Your point?

    I was responding to @Rob53, who mentioned that "Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies."  I already knew that OS X / macOS had FileVault for many years.
    To be clear, this T2 chip is a whole another level than BitLocker or FileVault. This is much more than that. This can prevent suspicious softwares from booting itself along with OSX, can prevent suspicious software using your webcam to spy on you.. for example. This is what I call true innovation. Certainly more innovative than slim keyboard or Touch Bar (which just happen to replace physical keys with touch screen). This should be in every MacBook Pro shipped. My guess is we will see it soon.  
    Secure Boot, Trusted Boot, ELAM, and Measured Boot, which part of Windows since v8, does the same thing, protect the system boot process,

    https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/dn168167.aspx

    The only requirement is UEFI and a TPM chip, which are very common in PCs a few years back.  I agree with what you said, this type of security should be part of every Mac as it is with Windows.  Too bad it's only on the iMac Pro.

    They might have it but software solution like this will never work as good as Apple solution that integrated & designed specifically for the task on specific machine. This needs to be on laptop ASAP. 
    The security mechanisms in Windows 8/10 require or works better when the devices has a TPM chip, so it's not a software-only solution.  The T2 chip may do more than a TPM chip.  But from a security POV, the article doesn't mention anything different or better compared to what MS have done since Windows 8 and a TPM chip.  If find interesting how MS implemented those security mechanisms 5 years ago as part of every Windows 8 version, while Apple have it now, only in the iMac Pro. 
    Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac. The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases. 
    It’s not different from Android that they also have many things first but never works as well.

    It's nice to see how a Mac integrates with an iPad and iPhone.  The same can be said of Windows integrating with the XBox, Office 365, SQL, Exchange and SharePoint.  Apple isn't the only one that integrates with products they own.

     I think what many people failed to grasp is Apple has its own standard to uphold while many companies, Microsoft included, doesn’t. And even if they want to have a standard they can’t because they don’t control every aspects of their product.

    Do you think MS has no control on XBox and the Surface devices?

    Windows isn't written for specific software or hardware so it will never be considered an integration system, just like housing estate never built for specific owner.
    And in case of iMac Pro it's just go another level with Apple computer talking to Apple chip (T2) through Apple software (OSX) on the machine Apple approve everything. Apple is just years ahead of Microsoft in this case & it will take years for Microsoft to catch up if at all but from my experience with Microsoft products I won't hold my breath frankly.

    The level of integration of Apple is mostly based in hardware, while MS is based in software and services  For example, macOS/Mac have no integration with the Xbox, while it works without issues with Windows.  Another example is how well Windows integrates with Active Directory, something macOS lacks.  Or the excellent integration of MS Office with Office 365 cloud apps, and MS ERP and server applications, while iWorks does nothing.  See, Apple is not the only one that have a better integration with their products.


    And it will be much worse if the rumour about Microsoft quitting Surface hardware is true. Whatever it is it already looking bad for Surface. From USA Today:

    Consumer Reports has removed its coveted “recommendation” designation for four Microsoft Surface laptops it had previously blessed with such status.
    At issue, the publication says, is the “predicted reliability” of the Microsoft machines compared to most other brands, which Consumer Reports said was worse by a "statistically significant margin."
    Consumer Reports based its decision on the results of an annual subscriber survey about the products such people own and use.

    Something just never changes...

    MS already denied is quitting the Surface business,

    http://www.techradar.com/news/microsoft-denies-its-killing-its-surface-products

    http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-panos-panay-not-killing-surface-2017-10

    And the Consumers Reports study was based from the first Surface Pro model to the latest, at the time the Surface Pro 4.  The Surface Pro 4 by itself was a big step forward.  It even had a better consumer satisfaction compared to iPads. 

    https://9to5mac.com/2017/04/06/microsoft-edges-out-apple-for-top-spot-in-j-d-power-tablet-survey/

    I suppose that a device that has a better consumer satisfaction rating than iPads has too be good, don't you think?  So yes, things can change.






    Well, I'm sure glad that macOS has no integration with Xbox. lol. It would be strange if it has, but that is missing my point entirely.

    The examples I gave were to respond your post,

    "Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac. The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases." 

    It's easy to for you see the benefits of an all Apple environment, but at the same time you don't see the benefits of a all-Windows environment.  And yes, their are many benefits of an all Windows environment, specially in businesses and the enterprise, or with devices like the Xbox.  I work with both in a frequent basis, and they have their positive and negatives things.  Y

    Specific to the T2 chip integration with the iMac Pro, neither you or the article show advantages or additional benefits from a security POV compared to Windows + TPM.  Both companies achieve the same goal in a different way, with the difference that MS have been giving customer these features since Windows 8. 

    As for Surface, for sure Consumer Report rated it highly too but in the end have to *pull recommendation* back because of their users complaints. This is the headline.


    Consumer Reports pulls recommendation for Microsoft Surface laptops

    Consumer Reports' removed its coveted "recommendation" designation from four Microsoft Surface laptops after hearing back from users.


    They recommended it, then they don't recommend it. And this is 4 months after that JD Power ranking. Something has reared its ugly head at last I guess.

    There is a difference between both studies.  Consumers Reports results were based in all Surface Pro's, since the 1st model.  JD Power was specific with the Surface Pro 4.  Consumers Reports even said that their study isn't perfect at all. 

    https://www.pcworld.com/article/3215232/tablet-pc/consumer-reports-surface-laptop-flap-is-based-on-data-from-past-surface-models.html

    That could mean that MS got better between the 1st model and the SP4.  And now the SP4 had a higher consumer satisfaction compared to iPads.  I think you'll never expect a MS device having a higher consumer satisfaction over iPads.  See, things change.




    Like I said, Consumer Report reviews of Surface Pro were always stellar from day one. They had to retract it because of reliability issue. I can't say I'm surprised. 
    Like you posted & deleted, we will know about Surface Pro 4 in 2018 or 2019. :smiley: 

    Here is a line from the article,

    “Essentially, our analysis isn’t of the Surface laptops or any specific model line or family,” a Consumer Reports spokesman explained in an email. “Rather we conduct annual laptops and tablets brand reliability surveys. We are not making claims about a specific laptop or tablet model released at a specific point in time. We are making reliability predictions at the brand level, based on the devices purchased between 2014 and the first quarter of 2017.”

    So the results were based from a list of products, not a specific device.  And the predictions are at the brand level.  JD Powers focused in the latest Surface model at the time, the SP4, were consumers, not JD Powers, had the SP4 over the iPad.  What would happen in 2018?  You, neither do I know.  What would you never expect was a MS device could have a higher consumer satisfaction, and it happened with the SP4.  Now Time magazine had the Surface Notebook in the Best Gadgets of 2017 list.   Things are changing...

    As for benefits of Windows I can't say I have problem with it. As I said, Windows has every features under the sun, remember? That certainly is a benefit. What I have problem with is it just doesn't work very well.
    Quote:

    Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac.
    You left something in your comment,

    "Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac.  The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases."  

    And my response was based in the context of integration.  Again, what benefit or advantage from a security POV does the integration of the T2 chip in the iMac Pro gives over the Windows + TPM solution?


    Frankly the comment about JD Power is ridiculous. I didn't switch to Mac because of JD Power. I didn't even know about its existence then, so why should I "expect" anything from them?
    I glance at their method & what give Surface Pro 4 ahead just seems flimsy but anyway I don't have any care of it. Never on JD Power website even once.

    Since you think that JD Powers results are useless (even though they had a high score for the iPad too), then we should ignore Consumers Reports, since "the spokesman acknowledged the problem with using past data on a new product that wasn’t even shipping when the survey took place. “It’s not 100 percent perfect,” the spokesman said of the publication’s methodology."  Looks like you can trust no one. 

    The fact that it's high ranking in JD Power doesn't mean it won't have any issue later just like when Consumer Report gave previous Surface a high ranking.
    The same can be said of Consumer Reports, that recommended the Macbook Pro, and now there is the long list of users with keyboard issues.  Even Grubber has to post about it,

    https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/17/johnston-macbook-keyboard
    http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-macbook-pro-keyboard-fix-is-absurd-2017-10
    https://www.cultofmac.com/468811/2016-macbook-pro-owners-say-apples-new-keyboard-buggy/

    Do you think that Consumer Reports should remove the Macbook Pro from the recommended list?
    As for my quote, yes integration of Apple hardware & software has proved to be superior method. That's why I'm willing to spend more for Mac, and don't have any plan to spend less for PC anytime soon.
    You asked "what benefit or advantage from a security POV does the integration of the T2 chip in the iMac Pro gives over the Windows + TPM solution?", well, if it's like any solution on PC I had used then isn't the answer obvious? Maybe you should look at a sentences above or my previous post that already cited 2 examples? Should I bold them for you?

    Isn't too obvious for me.  Can you be more specific?  For example, why Secure Boot is more secure in an iMac Pro + T2 than Windows 10 +TPM?  Your previous answer mention how happy you are with OS X and the integration method. No mention of details about Secure Boot or other security mechanism. 

    Wow! You seem to be really hurt I'm not worshipping Surface for some reason. WTH can I say? I didn't buy iPad because of JD Power ranking so yeah it's a bit useless to me. There is this thing called personal experience & if my personal experience is Apple products are much better than Microsoft's, will I change my mind because of some ranking?
    I bet Microsoft would rather be 5th & made some profit off Surface than being 1st & losing money.

    First of all, you were the one who bring the Surface in the conversation.  Second, in my home there are more Apple devices than from MS.  So I have no need to worship Apple or MS devices.  I already have the "personal experience" of using daily a Surface Pro 4 and an iPad, and have no issues seeing when a device is better than other, and see benefits and things that could improve in both.  BTW, do you have a Surface Pro or your comments are based in what you read on the internet?  Wait, you already mention that you move from Windows many years ago.  So your "personal experience" with a Surface is zero.  I'll suggest you that before making a comment from a Surface, or any other product, at least have some "personal experience" with it. 

    BTW, remember that you were the one who bring the Surface into the conversation, with the line from USA Today about Consumer Reports taking it out of the recommended list.  I just posted how JD Powers have it ahead of the iPad, and how Consumer Reports admitted that their study isn't 100% reliable. 

    As for Consumer Report report, well I personally don't care about it too. It's just that I'm not surprised Microsoft products aren't reliable. You on the other hand seem to be depend on someone's else opinion for some reason.

    So why you bring Consumer Reports into the conversation if you don't care about their opinion?  Me?  I own Surface and iPad. My opinion is based in facts from a device I own, not in my experience from a product I used years ago. 


    As for Macbook Pro keyboard, I'm not surprised about the review. That's why I'm still using Macbook Air that I have bought 7 years ago (No PC laptop I had ever be with me more than 3 years. They will be useless by that time so here you go. Another experience that Microsoft's products are inferior.) because I don't care for it. It's not a category I care for improvement. I never find any fault on the old keyboard so it doesn't draw me to buy one. :shrug:

    You should get a better PC then.  Even Phil Schiller mention in a keynote that 600M people own PC's +5 years.  In my personal experience, I had an HP Elitebook for +6 years.  My customers Thinkpads and other business devices have been running +6 years, and got better with Windows 10.  At the same time, I had a 2012 Macbook Air that worked for 4 years.  In my experience, HP Elitebooks are better than Mac.  See how a "personal experience" is different on each person?

    As for why Apple's will be "more secure" than Microsoft? Well, easy. Because when Apple get out of their lazy ass and put some effort it'll always be better than Microsoft's solution. I lost count how many times I have a "wow" moments when I switched to OSX despite I'm switching on Lion which Mac users thought was the worst OSX in years. So history tells me it will be much better than Microsoft's. Doing more things & doing it much better. There are no doubt in my mind.

    I didn't ask why Apple will be more secure.  You mentioned before that "in the case of iMac Pro it's just go another level with Apple computer talking to Apple chip (T2) through Apple software (OSX) on the machine Apple approve everything."  So I ask again, how something like Secure Boot goes to another level in an iMac Pro + T2 compared to Windows 10 + TPM?  And if you don't know, just say it. 

    You know you should have opinion by yourself. Don't be rely on other's so you don't be hurt when someone tell you your favourite brand is shit, or be excited when some website gave it 5 stars. It's our opinion, form from experiences, that counts. When your machine broke no 5 stars review from any websites can fix it. It's your money that can. Those website can only retract recommendations.

    I already have an opinion based in my experience with my Surface Pro 4 and iPad, different from you, since you already mentioned that have no Windows device.  So do your self a favor, and use the devices for some months or years before posting opinions about them, and put in practice your own advice of don't rely on other peoples experience.  And what you said is true about devices and 5-star ratings.  Consumers Reports already did that, and looks the many issues people have with Macbook Pros.  Let's see if Consumers Reports retract their recommendation as they did with the Surface (even though the study wasn't 100% reliable ;) ). 

    Wow. You seem to be unable to take kindly criticism of Microsoft for some reason and have to unnecessarily counter point them. That's kind of strange, to say the least. :smiley: 
    Frankly even though I like Apple products I wouldn't spend time.. um.. defending them like this. What's the point?

    I might try Microsoft product if it doesn't have such a reliability issue lol. From my past experience & from what I observe nowadays (you know you don't have to use something to know, right? You can have friends using it for example) it will take an extraordinary turn of events from Microsoft to make me even thinking about it.

    (And by the way, thank you for telling me it's all my fault. "You should get a better PC then." Great job. 👍)
    edited December 2017
  • Reply 37 of 37
    danvmdanvm Posts: 806member
    matrix077 said:
    danvm said:
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    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    danvm said:
    rob53 said:
    I wish I was still working. Writing up a security plan for a department full of these will be a piece of cake. Add MDM software that works with these and the security plan will write itself. Would just have to deal with the troublesome Windows PCs. Now if Apple would just re-release a compatible server and Macs would dominate secure government organizations. 
    Interesting how one government organization, the USA DoD, see no issues with Windows security.  They announced the deployment of Windows 10 in 4 million devices "based on the need to strengthen our cybersecurity posture while concurrently streamlining the IT operating environment.".

    https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/688721/dod-wide-windows-10-rapid-deployment-to-boost-cybersecurity/

    I don't see how bring back the XServe will make Apple dominant in government organizations, when Windows Server and Linux are far more capable than macOS Server.
    DoD adjusts their cyber security rules to meet their needs. Are their systems secure? It all depends on who you ask and who is responsible for accepting the risk.

    Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies. I worked for DOE and we actually had higher security than DoD.

    Bitlocker have been part of Windows since v8.  And in Windows 10 BitLocker, encryption works with TPM chips that come with most business/enterprise PC's (for example, Thinkpads had TPM chips for +10 years).  And it even works with Windows Hello, which has facial recognition, something missing in the iMac Pro. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/device-security/bitlocker/bitlocker-device-encryption-overview-windows-10

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/access-protection/hello-for-business/hello-why-pin-is-better-than-password

    And MS provide tools to manage it, not 3rd party tools needed. 

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-desktop-optimization-pack/mbam-v25/about-mbam-25





    And Apple has FileVault for 10+ years. Your point?

    I was responding to @Rob53, who mentioned that "Windows PCs don't come standard with any type of physical encryption like the new iMac Pro, everything is bolted on requiring software updates from third-party companies."  I already knew that OS X / macOS had FileVault for many years.
    To be clear, this T2 chip is a whole another level than BitLocker or FileVault. This is much more than that. This can prevent suspicious softwares from booting itself along with OSX, can prevent suspicious software using your webcam to spy on you.. for example. This is what I call true innovation. Certainly more innovative than slim keyboard or Touch Bar (which just happen to replace physical keys with touch screen). This should be in every MacBook Pro shipped. My guess is we will see it soon.  
    Secure Boot, Trusted Boot, ELAM, and Measured Boot, which part of Windows since v8, does the same thing, protect the system boot process,

    https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/dn168167.aspx

    The only requirement is UEFI and a TPM chip, which are very common in PCs a few years back.  I agree with what you said, this type of security should be part of every Mac as it is with Windows.  Too bad it's only on the iMac Pro.

    They might have it but software solution like this will never work as good as Apple solution that integrated & designed specifically for the task on specific machine. This needs to be on laptop ASAP. 
    The security mechanisms in Windows 8/10 require or works better when the devices has a TPM chip, so it's not a software-only solution.  The T2 chip may do more than a TPM chip.  But from a security POV, the article doesn't mention anything different or better compared to what MS have done since Windows 8 and a TPM chip.  If find interesting how MS implemented those security mechanisms 5 years ago as part of every Windows 8 version, while Apple have it now, only in the iMac Pro. 
    Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac. The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases. 
    It’s not different from Android that they also have many things first but never works as well.

    It's nice to see how a Mac integrates with an iPad and iPhone.  The same can be said of Windows integrating with the XBox, Office 365, SQL, Exchange and SharePoint.  Apple isn't the only one that integrates with products they own.

     I think what many people failed to grasp is Apple has its own standard to uphold while many companies, Microsoft included, doesn’t. And even if they want to have a standard they can’t because they don’t control every aspects of their product.

    Do you think MS has no control on XBox and the Surface devices?

    Windows isn't written for specific software or hardware so it will never be considered an integration system, just like housing estate never built for specific owner.
    And in case of iMac Pro it's just go another level with Apple computer talking to Apple chip (T2) through Apple software (OSX) on the machine Apple approve everything. Apple is just years ahead of Microsoft in this case & it will take years for Microsoft to catch up if at all but from my experience with Microsoft products I won't hold my breath frankly.

    The level of integration of Apple is mostly based in hardware, while MS is based in software and services  For example, macOS/Mac have no integration with the Xbox, while it works without issues with Windows.  Another example is how well Windows integrates with Active Directory, something macOS lacks.  Or the excellent integration of MS Office with Office 365 cloud apps, and MS ERP and server applications, while iWorks does nothing.  See, Apple is not the only one that have a better integration with their products.


    And it will be much worse if the rumour about Microsoft quitting Surface hardware is true. Whatever it is it already looking bad for Surface. From USA Today:

    Consumer Reports has removed its coveted “recommendation” designation for four Microsoft Surface laptops it had previously blessed with such status.
    At issue, the publication says, is the “predicted reliability” of the Microsoft machines compared to most other brands, which Consumer Reports said was worse by a "statistically significant margin."
    Consumer Reports based its decision on the results of an annual subscriber survey about the products such people own and use.

    Something just never changes...

    MS already denied is quitting the Surface business,

    http://www.techradar.com/news/microsoft-denies-its-killing-its-surface-products

    http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-panos-panay-not-killing-surface-2017-10

    And the Consumers Reports study was based from the first Surface Pro model to the latest, at the time the Surface Pro 4.  The Surface Pro 4 by itself was a big step forward.  It even had a better consumer satisfaction compared to iPads. 

    https://9to5mac.com/2017/04/06/microsoft-edges-out-apple-for-top-spot-in-j-d-power-tablet-survey/

    I suppose that a device that has a better consumer satisfaction rating than iPads has too be good, don't you think?  So yes, things can change.






    Well, I'm sure glad that macOS has no integration with Xbox. lol. It would be strange if it has, but that is missing my point entirely.

    The examples I gave were to respond your post,

    "Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac. The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases." 

    It's easy to for you see the benefits of an all Apple environment, but at the same time you don't see the benefits of a all-Windows environment.  And yes, their are many benefits of an all Windows environment, specially in businesses and the enterprise, or with devices like the Xbox.  I work with both in a frequent basis, and they have their positive and negatives things.  Y

    Specific to the T2 chip integration with the iMac Pro, neither you or the article show advantages or additional benefits from a security POV compared to Windows + TPM.  Both companies achieve the same goal in a different way, with the difference that MS have been giving customer these features since Windows 8. 

    As for Surface, for sure Consumer Report rated it highly too but in the end have to *pull recommendation* back because of their users complaints. This is the headline.


    Consumer Reports pulls recommendation for Microsoft Surface laptops

    Consumer Reports' removed its coveted "recommendation" designation from four Microsoft Surface laptops after hearing back from users.


    They recommended it, then they don't recommend it. And this is 4 months after that JD Power ranking. Something has reared its ugly head at last I guess.

    There is a difference between both studies.  Consumers Reports results were based in all Surface Pro's, since the 1st model.  JD Power was specific with the Surface Pro 4.  Consumers Reports even said that their study isn't perfect at all. 

    https://www.pcworld.com/article/3215232/tablet-pc/consumer-reports-surface-laptop-flap-is-based-on-data-from-past-surface-models.html

    That could mean that MS got better between the 1st model and the SP4.  And now the SP4 had a higher consumer satisfaction compared to iPads.  I think you'll never expect a MS device having a higher consumer satisfaction over iPads.  See, things change.




    Like I said, Consumer Report reviews of Surface Pro were always stellar from day one. They had to retract it because of reliability issue. I can't say I'm surprised. 
    Like you posted & deleted, we will know about Surface Pro 4 in 2018 or 2019. :smiley: 

    Here is a line from the article,

    “Essentially, our analysis isn’t of the Surface laptops or any specific model line or family,” a Consumer Reports spokesman explained in an email. “Rather we conduct annual laptops and tablets brand reliability surveys. We are not making claims about a specific laptop or tablet model released at a specific point in time. We are making reliability predictions at the brand level, based on the devices purchased between 2014 and the first quarter of 2017.”

    So the results were based from a list of products, not a specific device.  And the predictions are at the brand level.  JD Powers focused in the latest Surface model at the time, the SP4, were consumers, not JD Powers, had the SP4 over the iPad.  What would happen in 2018?  You, neither do I know.  What would you never expect was a MS device could have a higher consumer satisfaction, and it happened with the SP4.  Now Time magazine had the Surface Notebook in the Best Gadgets of 2017 list.   Things are changing...

    As for benefits of Windows I can't say I have problem with it. As I said, Windows has every features under the sun, remember? That certainly is a benefit. What I have problem with is it just doesn't work very well.
    Quote:

    Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac.
    You left something in your comment,

    "Let’s just say that when I was using Windows, they have every features under the sun and most of it didn’t work as well as on OSX. That’s why I’m sticking with the Mac.  The integration method proving to be superior in almost every cases."  

    And my response was based in the context of integration.  Again, what benefit or advantage from a security POV does the integration of the T2 chip in the iMac Pro gives over the Windows + TPM solution?


    Frankly the comment about JD Power is ridiculous. I didn't switch to Mac because of JD Power. I didn't even know about its existence then, so why should I "expect" anything from them?
    I glance at their method & what give Surface Pro 4 ahead just seems flimsy but anyway I don't have any care of it. Never on JD Power website even once.

    Since you think that JD Powers results are useless (even though they had a high score for the iPad too), then we should ignore Consumers Reports, since "the spokesman acknowledged the problem with using past data on a new product that wasn’t even shipping when the survey took place. “It’s not 100 percent perfect,” the spokesman said of the publication’s methodology."  Looks like you can trust no one. 

    The fact that it's high ranking in JD Power doesn't mean it won't have any issue later just like when Consumer Report gave previous Surface a high ranking.
    The same can be said of Consumer Reports, that recommended the Macbook Pro, and now there is the long list of users with keyboard issues.  Even Grubber has to post about it,

    https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/17/johnston-macbook-keyboard
    http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-macbook-pro-keyboard-fix-is-absurd-2017-10
    https://www.cultofmac.com/468811/2016-macbook-pro-owners-say-apples-new-keyboard-buggy/

    Do you think that Consumer Reports should remove the Macbook Pro from the recommended list?
    As for my quote, yes integration of Apple hardware & software has proved to be superior method. That's why I'm willing to spend more for Mac, and don't have any plan to spend less for PC anytime soon.
    You asked "what benefit or advantage from a security POV does the integration of the T2 chip in the iMac Pro gives over the Windows + TPM solution?", well, if it's like any solution on PC I had used then isn't the answer obvious? Maybe you should look at a sentences above or my previous post that already cited 2 examples? Should I bold them for you?

    Isn't too obvious for me.  Can you be more specific?  For example, why Secure Boot is more secure in an iMac Pro + T2 than Windows 10 +TPM?  Your previous answer mention how happy you are with OS X and the integration method. No mention of details about Secure Boot or other security mechanism. 

    Wow! You seem to be really hurt I'm not worshipping Surface for some reason. WTH can I say? I didn't buy iPad because of JD Power ranking so yeah it's a bit useless to me. There is this thing called personal experience & if my personal experience is Apple products are much better than Microsoft's, will I change my mind because of some ranking?
    I bet Microsoft would rather be 5th & made some profit off Surface than being 1st & losing money.

    First of all, you were the one who bring the Surface in the conversation.  Second, in my home there are more Apple devices than from MS.  So I have no need to worship Apple or MS devices.  I already have the "personal experience" of using daily a Surface Pro 4 and an iPad, and have no issues seeing when a device is better than other, and see benefits and things that could improve in both.  BTW, do you have a Surface Pro or your comments are based in what you read on the internet?  Wait, you already mention that you move from Windows many years ago.  So your "personal experience" with a Surface is zero.  I'll suggest you that before making a comment from a Surface, or any other product, at least have some "personal experience" with it. 

    BTW, remember that you were the one who bring the Surface into the conversation, with the line from USA Today about Consumer Reports taking it out of the recommended list.  I just posted how JD Powers have it ahead of the iPad, and how Consumer Reports admitted that their study isn't 100% reliable. 

    As for Consumer Report report, well I personally don't care about it too. It's just that I'm not surprised Microsoft products aren't reliable. You on the other hand seem to be depend on someone's else opinion for some reason.

    So why you bring Consumer Reports into the conversation if you don't care about their opinion?  Me?  I own Surface and iPad. My opinion is based in facts from a device I own, not in my experience from a product I used years ago. 


    As for Macbook Pro keyboard, I'm not surprised about the review. That's why I'm still using Macbook Air that I have bought 7 years ago (No PC laptop I had ever be with me more than 3 years. They will be useless by that time so here you go. Another experience that Microsoft's products are inferior.) because I don't care for it. It's not a category I care for improvement. I never find any fault on the old keyboard so it doesn't draw me to buy one. :shrug:

    You should get a better PC then.  Even Phil Schiller mention in a keynote that 600M people own PC's +5 years.  In my personal experience, I had an HP Elitebook for +6 years.  My customers Thinkpads and other business devices have been running +6 years, and got better with Windows 10.  At the same time, I had a 2012 Macbook Air that worked for 4 years.  In my experience, HP Elitebooks are better than Mac.  See how a "personal experience" is different on each person?

    As for why Apple's will be "more secure" than Microsoft? Well, easy. Because when Apple get out of their lazy ass and put some effort it'll always be better than Microsoft's solution. I lost count how many times I have a "wow" moments when I switched to OSX despite I'm switching on Lion which Mac users thought was the worst OSX in years. So history tells me it will be much better than Microsoft's. Doing more things & doing it much better. There are no doubt in my mind.

    I didn't ask why Apple will be more secure.  You mentioned before that "in the case of iMac Pro it's just go another level with Apple computer talking to Apple chip (T2) through Apple software (OSX) on the machine Apple approve everything."  So I ask again, how something like Secure Boot goes to another level in an iMac Pro + T2 compared to Windows 10 + TPM?  And if you don't know, just say it. 

    You know you should have opinion by yourself. Don't be rely on other's so you don't be hurt when someone tell you your favourite brand is shit, or be excited when some website gave it 5 stars. It's our opinion, form from experiences, that counts. When your machine broke no 5 stars review from any websites can fix it. It's your money that can. Those website can only retract recommendations.

    I already have an opinion based in my experience with my Surface Pro 4 and iPad, different from you, since you already mentioned that have no Windows device.  So do your self a favor, and use the devices for some months or years before posting opinions about them, and put in practice your own advice of don't rely on other peoples experience.  And what you said is true about devices and 5-star ratings.  Consumers Reports already did that, and looks the many issues people have with Macbook Pros.  Let's see if Consumers Reports retract their recommendation as they did with the Surface (even though the study wasn't 100% reliable ;) ). 

    Wow. You seem to be unable to take kindly criticism of Microsoft for some reason and have to unnecessarily counter point them. That's kind of strange, to say the least. :smiley: 
    Frankly even though I like Apple products I wouldn't spend time.. um.. defending them like this. What's the point?

    I might try Microsoft product if it doesn't have such a reliability issue lol. From my past experience & from what I observe nowadays (you know you don't have to use something to know, right? You can have friends using it for example) it will take an extraordinary turn of events from Microsoft to make me even thinking about it.

    (And by the way, thank you for telling me it's all my fault. "You should get a better PC then." Great job. 👍)

    No, I have no issues criticizing MS.  Different from you, I own a Surface device and know it's weakness, which battery life maybe the worst offender.  In your case, you opinion is based is Consumers Reports and what you friends use, even though you emphasize "personal experience".   Go ahead, and try Surface device, then make your own conclusions.  

    And not, I don't blame you for the failure of your PC.  Neither I blame me for my 2012 MacBook Air failing after 4 years.  In my "personal experience" I suppose that's how long a MacBook should last, right?

    Returning to the article, I asked a simple question about the T2 chip, and still have no answer from you.  Please, don't post again about Surface (which has no relation to the article or my question) or "personal experience" with Mac integration.  If after all of these days you have no answer, then I can assume you have no idea how it works, right?
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