Reason for Delayed Power Macs

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 45
    OK - newbie here hoping that someone would quickly rundown the relationship between PCI slot speed and bus speed for me. i've assumed that the bus speed = the number of PCI slots x the PCI slot speed, hence 33mhz cards x 4 = 133 mhz bus. but i would like to know for sure.



    the reason i'm asking is that the only thing which seems obvious to me is 66 Mhz PCI slots coming in august. aja video and blackmagic-design have teamed up to be the first people out of the gate with mac only, OS X native video editing cards for final cut. they have these cards in both Standard Definition and High Definition. we're currrently using the Standard Definition card and loving it, but the High Definition card hasn't been released yet. it is a 66mhz PCI card and is going to be released the second week of august. i don't believe aja/blackmagic would release a card which can't be used in any mac on the market.



    so i'm curious - assuming 66 mhz PCI slots are coming in august, what else can be extrapolated from that? if anything.



    thanks for the help.
  • Reply 22 of 45
    outsideroutsider Posts: 6,008member
    [quote]Originally posted by peaceful billy:

    <strong>OK - newbie here hoping that someone would quickly rundown the relationship between PCI slot speed and bus speed for me. i've assumed that the bus speed = the number of PCI slots x the PCI slot speed, hence 33mhz cards x 4 = 133 mhz bus. but i would like to know for sure.



    the reason i'm asking is that the only thing which seems obvious to me is 66 Mhz PCI slots coming in august. aja video and blackmagic-design have teamed up to be the first people out of the gate with mac only, OS X native video editing cards for final cut. they have these cards in both Standard Definition and High Definition. we're currrently using the Standard Definition card and loving it, but the High Definition card hasn't been released yet. it is a 66mhz PCI card and is going to be released the second week of august. i don't believe aja/blackmagic would release a card which can't be used in any mac on the market.



    so i'm curious - assuming 66 mhz PCI slots are coming in august, what else can be extrapolated from that? if anything.



    thanks for the help.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Forget everything you ever thought you knew about the correlation between bus speed and the number of PCI slots. They have nothing to do with each other except for the fact that there is a ratio set that determines the speed of each. Bus speed is governed by the design of the bus between the processor and various controllers on the motherboard and the physical layout of the motherboard (trace lengths, etc.)



    [ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: Outsider ]</p>
  • Reply 23 of 45
    oustider



    thanks. so basically, we could get 66 mhz PCI slots with no other powermac changes in august (not that this will happen). the bus speed and the PCI slot speed are unrelated. damn, and there i was hoping this meant 266 mhz bus was a lock. well, it's good to know otherwise.
  • Reply 24 of 45
    [quote]Originally posted by Barto:

    This feels like the time to remind people that 3 years ago the G4 was at 100/500Mhz.



    <strong>If Motorola followed Moore's Law, we would be at 400/2GHz. </strong>



    Same with the G3. Instead we have Apple, cruising at 1/2 Moore's Law.

    <hr></blockquote>



    What does clock frequency and bus speed have to do with Moore's Law? Here is the real definition:



    The observation made in 1965 by Gordon Moore, co-founder of Intel, that the number of transistors per square inch on integrated circuits had doubled every year since the integrated circuit was invented. Moore predicted that this trend would continue for the foreseeable future. In subsequent years, the pace slowed down a bit, but data density has doubled approximately every 18 months, and this is the current definition of Moore's Law, which Moore himself has blessed. Most experts, including Moore himself, expect Moore's Law to hold for at least another two decades.



    [ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: Jeff Leigh ]</p>
  • Reply 25 of 45
    bartobarto Posts: 2,246member
    I hereby apologies for using the popular, butchered version of Moore's law. The version cited of "Computing power doubleing every 18 months".



    To those confused about clock-speed relationships: There is no relationship (except for the co-incidental) between the different components of a computer. A chip called the IC by Apple and the Northbridge by Intel and the IGP by nVidia links devices in current systems together. That is, the RAM, the Graphics Card, the PCI bus and the CPU (sometimes others). While it's nice to have the different clock-speed to run in multiples (for instance a CPU's FSB runs at for example 1/4 of the core speed) to better sync (to achieve lower latency and not have to use expensive SRAM on ICs to keep up bandwidth) communication between different components, you don't have to.



    Barto



    [ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: Barto ]</p>
  • Reply 26 of 45
    programmerprogrammer Posts: 3,423member
    I don't like calling the Xserve system design a "hack". Its not. Servers require more I/O memory bandwidth, and this design gives them quite a bit more bandwidth. Just because it doesn't somehow achieve an improvement in memory throughput for the CPU(s) doesn't mean it isn't a legit design. There have been many computer systems (especially mainframes) where the processor couldn't come close to fully utilizing the memory bandwidth and yet they were perfectly valid and successful designs. Applying this design to the PowerMac line is also valid, especially since the extra cost of DDR is quite minor these days. Jaguar & Quartz Extreme will quite handily make use of the excess memory bandwidth.



    Clearly applications which need greater memory bandwidth through the processor aren't helped (much) by this design, but until a new processor with better memory bandwidth is available there isn't much else that can be done. With this design Apple is making the most of what is currently available to it. That doesn't make it a "hack".





    I think the need to reduce the existing PowerMac inventory is a perfectly valid reason for the delay. Systems are still selling, albeit slowly, and with the discount another month will make a significant dent in the inventory. With no machine introduced tomorrow sales will probably increase since conventional wisdom (incorrectly) says products only appear at MacWorlds. Hopefully Apple can juggle where its inventory is physically to avoid empty shelves in some places and excessive inventory in others. The extra month also gives them more time to accumulate parts for the new machine (processors in particular), and get ready to ship it with 10.2 -- whether or not it requires 10.2 is immaterial. Third, it continues the trend of breaking free of this unfortunate culture of all this attention focussed on the MacWorld shows. Introducing new product is a careful juggling act between phasing out the old ones, designing and building the new ones, and generating the marketing hype for the introduction. Timing of multiple product lines, software vs. hardware, etc etc etc. If you haven't looked closely at what it takes to switch successfully over to a new product then you are probably woefully underestimating the complexity of the task.



    The PC market overall (not just Apple) seems to be really flat right now. I have to wonder if we have finally reached market saturation where everybody who is going to buy a PC/Mac has one, and have now moved into a situation where all the sales will come from people replacing failing machines or who are "moving up" (and from new consumers, of course). The automotive market has been this way for a long time, and it is a very different market environment than the way the computer market has been since its inception. If this is the case then Apple actually has a strong potential advantage here because they are differentiated in the market and there is 98% of the market out there who can potentially be convinced that buying a Mac is "moving up". Machine performance is largely irrelevent here -- what matters is a better experience, and that is where Apple can really win. Their "Switch" campaign is well timed, but only time will tell if it is effective enough. For most people a faster machine is not sufficient reason to buy a new machine, instead functionality is the deciding factor. Buy a new machine to run the new OS. Buy a new machine that has a FireWire port. Buy a new machine to get the new video card that does some new tricks. Newer & faster machines are important in a bunch of vertical markets that Apple really wants to get into, and I think they'll have newer & faster machines but it is not essential to Apple that they have them tomorrow. All other things being equal, sooner is better, but doing it right is more important than doing it now. Rolling out new product is really expensive so don't do it unless you know its going to be the right product.
  • Reply 27 of 45
    sc_marktsc_markt Posts: 1,397member
    [quote]Originally posted by Programmer:

    <strong>



    I think the need to reduce the existing PowerMac inventory is a perfectly valid reason for the delay. Systems are still selling, albeit slowly, and with the discount another month will make a significant dent in the inventory. With no machine introduced tomorrow sales will probably increase since conventional wisdom (incorrectly) says products only appear at MacWorlds. Hopefully Apple can juggle where its inventory is physically to avoid empty shelves in some places and excessive inventory in others. The extra month also gives them more time to accumulate parts for the new machine (processors in particular), and get ready to ship it with 10.2 -- whether or not it requires 10.2 is immaterial.



    </strong><hr></blockquote>





    From <a href="http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0207/16.finances.php"; target="_blank">http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0207/16.finances.php</a>;



    "One particular area of concerns is pro sales. Such sales are flat in Europe. There wasn't the expected

    uplift in sales due to the release of Photoshop 7 for Mac OS X and some pro users are apparently

    delaying upgrading their systems until the release of the next version of Mac OS X, codenamed Jaguar, Anderson said.



    As a result, there are about 6.5 weeks of channel inventory at the current time. The company plans to reduce that to 4-5 weeks over the next two quarters. Sales are anticipated to be flat in the June quarter, and revenues down due to price reductions on certain units, Anderson said."



    This sucks if this means that we have to wait another 6 months for new powermacs.



    And Fred Anderson, if your reading this: I'm waiting to buy a powermac with a real DDR motherboard, faster HD's, 8XAGP, and G4's (or G5's) with RapidIO. I'm NOT waiting for 10.2 to buy a new powermac.
  • Reply 28 of 45
    ptrashptrash Posts: 296member
    [quote]Originally posted by sc_markt:

    <strong>





    From <a href="http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0207/16.finances.php"; target="_blank">http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0207/16.finances.php</a>;



    "One particular area of concerns is pro sales. Such sales are flat in Europe. There wasn't the expected

    uplift in sales due to the release of Photoshop 7 for Mac OS X and some pro users are apparently

    delaying upgrading their systems until the release of the next version of Mac OS X, codenamed Jaguar, Anderson said.



    As a result, there are about 6.5 weeks of channel inventory at the current time. The company plans to reduce that to 4-5 weeks over the next two quarters. Sales are anticipated to be flat in the June quarter, and revenues down due to price reductions on certain units, Anderson said."



    This sucks if this means that we have to wait another 6 months for new powermacs.



    And Fred Anderson, if your reading this: I'm waiting to buy a powermac with a real DDR motherboard, faster HD's, 8XAGP, and G4's (or G5's) with RapidIO. I'm NOT waiting for 10.2 to buy a new powermac.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    You forgot to include this line from the article: "strong products ("some of which you'll see tomorrow") bode well for Apple's future"



    An interesting tidbit...
  • Reply 29 of 45
    [quote]Originally posted by sc_markt:

    <strong>And Fred Anderson, if your reading this: I'm waiting to buy a powermac with a real DDR motherboard, faster HD's, 8XAGP, and G4's (or G5's) with RapidIO. I'm NOT waiting for 10.2 to buy a new powermac.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    They can't exactly say that people are waiting to buy because of the new machines. That would just validate all the rumor sites. They can talk about Jaguar though because it's already been announced.
  • Reply 30 of 45
    sc_marktsc_markt Posts: 1,397member
    [quote]Originally posted by Ptrash:

    <strong>



    You forgot to include this line from the article: "strong products ("some of which you'll see tomorrow") bode well for Apple's future"



    An interesting tidbit...</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Interesing indeed. Just hope that some that statement was meant for new powermacs.
  • Reply 31 of 45
    [quote]Originally posted by sc_markt:

    <strong>



    "One particular area of concerns is pro sales. Such sales are flat in Europe. There wasn't the expected

    uplift in sales due to the release of Photoshop 7 for Mac OS X and some pro users are apparently

    delaying upgrading their systems until the release of the next version of Mac OS X, codenamed Jaguar, Anderson said.



    As a result, there are about 6.5 weeks of channel inventory at the current time. The company plans to reduce that to 4-5 weeks over the next two quarters. Sales are anticipated to be flat in the June quarter, and revenues down due to price reductions on certain units, Anderson said."



    This sucks if this means that we have to wait another 6 months for new powermacs.



    And Fred Anderson, if your reading this: I'm waiting to buy a powermac with a real DDR motherboard, faster HD's, 8XAGP, and G4's (or G5's) with RapidIO. I'm NOT waiting for 10.2 to buy a new powermac.</strong><hr></blockquote>

    Same here!



    No one is looking at the dual Gig G4 and saying "Gee.. its a nice machine, but without Jaguar, what good is it?"



    People are looking at OS X and saying "Gee, its a nice OS, but unless your computer can push some serious instruction sets its gonna be choppy, and i can't run quark on it naitively."



    I know because I'm one of the people who looks at OS X and Dual Gig G4s on a regular basis, always considering an upgrade. Like me, no one is going to buy a brand new G4 when they sense new Power macs are around the corner, even if its a month around the corner. If apple wants to clear inventory they should o this - introduce the new power macs, and keep selling the old power macs at new clear out prices. This way the waiting is over. Your average consumer can say "oh, look brand new g5s, but the dual gig g4s are only 2 grand."



    They'll clear out the g4s, and having a new line up of high end machine will revitalize the pro sales across the board.
  • Reply 32 of 45
    buisbuis Posts: 30member
    [quote]Originally posted by sc_markt:

    <strong>





    From <a href="http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0207/16.finances.php"; target="_blank">http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0207/16.finances.php</a>;



    "One particular area of concerns is pro sales. Such sales are flat in Europe. There wasn't the expected

    uplift in sales due to the release of Photoshop 7 for Mac OS X and some pro users are apparently

    delaying upgrading their systems until the release of the next version of Mac OS X, codenamed Jaguar, Anderson said.

    </strong><hr></blockquote>



    uhm...

    no.

    Sales in Europe are flat because at the time of introduction, the US dollar/Euro exchangerate was about 1.15 early this year and is now 0.98. Prices have not been adjusted, so European buyers pay at least 17% more, added to the usual extra charge for shipping and localisation. Examples:

    US price for PowerMac 800: $1599

    NL price for PowerMac 800: ?1899

    difference: 19%



    US price for entry iMac: $1399

    NL price for entry iMac: ?1749

    difference: 25%



    NL stands for Netherlands. Actually one of the countries where Macs are relatively cheap. Hopefully, when the next gen is introduced, the prices will be more reasonable. With the apparent opening of the first Apple Store in Europe being in the Netherlands (Amsterdam), I do have some hope for this.



    Also notice the lack of "special offers" on the Netherlands online AppleStore...



    (edit) FYI, the ?/$ graph.





    [ 07-16-2002: Message edited by: Buis ]</p>
  • Reply 33 of 45
    pfypfy Posts: 5member
    [quote]Originally posted by Buis:

    <strong>



    uhm...

    no.

    Sales in Europe are flat because at the time of introduction, the US dollar/Euro exchangerate was about 1.15 early this year and is now 0.98. Prices have not been adjusted, so European buyers pay at least 17% more, added to the usual extra charge for shipping and localisation. Examples:

    US price for PowerMac 800: $1599

    NL price for PowerMac 800: ?1899

    difference: 19%



    US price for entry iMac: $1399

    NL price for entry iMac: ?1749

    difference: 25%



    NL stands for Netherlands. Actually one of the countries where Macs are relatively cheap. Hopefully, when the next gen is introduced, the prices will be more reasonable. With the apparent opening of the first Apple Store in Europe being in the Netherlands (Amsterdam), I do have some hope for this.



    Also notice the lack of "special offers" on the Netherlands online AppleStore...



    </strong><hr></blockquote>



    Right on!

    Same here in Germany!

    However it looks like you forgot to substract VAT. But even without tax Apples in Europe are 5-10% more expensive and unless you know not to buy at Apple's online store they will ask for 15% more (again this is without VAT). And while I know not to buy at Apple's store most people who might consider buying a mac, for the first time or again after not owning one for some years, will most likely look look <a href="http://store.apple.com/"; target="_blank">here</a> first! I don't need to add what people will think when they see those prices.

    In short Apple needs to get their stuff together in Europe or their worldwide marketshare will fall below 2%!



    [ 07-17-2002: Message edited by: PFY ]



    [ 07-17-2002: Message edited by: PFY ]</p>
  • Reply 34 of 45
    I think there are a couple of things apple is doing. First by using MWNY & MWSF to introduce iApplications and a update to consumer products (iMac & iBook) and maybe a digital device(iPod), they want people to stop the semi-annual - I WILL HOLD OFF BUYING MY NEW MAC BECAUSE SOMETHING NEW MAY COME OUT. This has to hurt their quaterly sales. I can see them doing more special events and off show releases during the year.



    Second look at the 17" iMac. I think as far as apple systems go this is a great Value. It just a small step down from the powermacs. I think this is also a sign that the next version of the powermac will have to offer a real performance increase to get some of us to buy by the powermacs over the iMac. If I was looking for a new mac now it would be the new 17" iMac.



    But I won't be buying my new mac until I get my tax return next February or March, for some reason I think I will like what apple has to offer in 2003. For now I think im getting a 10Gb iPod
  • Reply 35 of 45
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    What was the reason? Maybe Seybold?
  • Reply 36 of 45
    T think it makes sense that they'll wait to launch the new PowerMacs with Jaguar. Jag will make for a nice little speed boost on top of whatever they've been able to do on the Hardware side.



    As far as sales drops, I thought I read that 3Q PowerMac sales were down 31% (iBook was in 2nd place with a 16% decline). I think the Specs hurt a little, waiting for Jaguar and the OS 9 application stragglers hurts a little and the economy hurts a lot. Most businesses aren't buying right now (and consumers seem to have backed off a lot in the last 60 days). Launching a big speed boost will help a bit, but PowerMac sales would still be low right now even if Steve had introduced Quad G5 PowerMacs at MacWorld, I just hope Apple is ready with compelling product when the economy comes back and the pent up demand is unleashed,
  • Reply 37 of 45
    kidredkidred Posts: 2,402member
    I don't think so. I can't speak for all, but I believe that pros would have the budget to upgrade. They aren't mom and pop and little Joie off in college. These are pros that use their hardware to make money not to mention every purchase is a tax deduction.



    If quad G5s came out yesterday, I think Apple wouldv'e sold quite a few to pros.
  • Reply 38 of 45
    bigcbigc Posts: 1,224member
    I'd buy.
  • Reply 39 of 45
    A rack of quad pro G5, I buy know !!!



    Where are they ? Steve ?

    MWNY 04 ?



    OK, see you at MWNY 04



    <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
  • Reply 40 of 45
    gullivergulliver Posts: 122member
    [quote]Originally posted by sc_markt:

    <strong>





    From <a href="http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0207/16.finances.php"; target="_blank">http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0207/16.finances.php</a>;



    "One particular area of concerns is pro sales. Such sales are flat in Europe. There wasn't the expected

    uplift in sales due to the release of Photoshop 7 for Mac OS X and some pro users are apparently

    delaying upgrading their systems until the release of the next version of Mac OS X, codenamed Jaguar, Anderson said.



    As a result, there are about 6.5 weeks of channel inventory at the current time. The company plans to reduce that to 4-5 weeks over the next two quarters. Sales are anticipated to be flat in the June quarter, and revenues down due to price reductions on certain units, Anderson said."



    </strong><hr></blockquote>



    People in Europe wait until Apple adjusts their prices to the new exchange rate: 1 Euro = 1,01 US$. Apple-prices are still calculated at the May-rate of 1 Euro = 0,85 US$. Therefore prices are 15-28% higher (depending on the sales-tax in each Euro-country) than in the US.



    e.g. QuickTime Pro 6 is 29,99 US$ in the US-Apple-Store. In Europe it is around 38-45 Euro(=US$). Why should Europeans pay that much more, although it is only one E-Mail with the Software-key?
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