Ireland's plans for Apple to pay $15.9B in back taxes may be delayed until Q2 2018

Posted:
in General Discussion
Ireland's attempt to collect an estimated 13 billion euro ($15.9 billion) in unpaid taxes could take longer than previously thought, after Prime Minister Leo Varadkar advised to EU lawmakers that initial payments could commence during the second quarter of this year.




In a Wednesday meeting in the Strasbourg chamber of the European Parliament concerning Ireland's tax policies, Varadkar was objecting to accusations that Ireland's low-rate tax system were damaging the economies of neighboring countries, Reuters reports. During discussions, Ireland's efforts to reclaim the back taxes from Apple was raised, with Varadkar confirming his government was respecting the EU court's order, and would start doing so from the second quarter.

In a clarification to Bloomberg, an Irish finance ministry spokesperson advised identifying the custodian and investment managers will allow for the first lodgment into the escrow fund thereafter with payments continuing through the course of Q2 and Q3.

The comments suggest a delay to the original plan laid out by the Irish government in December last year, when finance minister Paschal Donohoe advised Apple would start paying into the escrow account across the first quarter of next year.

In August 2016, the European Commission ruled that Ireland had extended illegal state aid to Apple, offering preferential terms that allowed it to pay extremely low amounts of tax as little as 0.005 percent in 2014 while funneling billions in international revenue through the country. The Commission also accused Ireland of reverse engineering taxes on the fly, in order to appease the iPhone producer.

Ireland has made slow progress in acquiring the funds from Apple, over a year and a half after the European Commission laid down its original ruling. In July, Ireland established an escrow fund to receive the tax payment, with appeals from both Apple and the government also believed to be holding up the process.

In October, the European Commission warned that it will bring Ireland to the European Court of Justice over the delays, noting that similar tax cases involving Fiat and Starbucks in other European countries saw funds recovered before appeals were exhausted, albeit for smaller amounts.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 27
    LOL. Keep those delays coming! And in the meantime, prepare for Irexit.
  • Reply 2 of 27
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,622member
    Apple should just give a big finger to Ireland and ship out somewhere else just on principle since they can't respect what they actually sign.
    Apple set up shop there because they lied basically.
    Staying there would just be rewarding liars.
    edited January 17
  • Reply 3 of 27
    LOL. Keep those delays coming! And in the meantime, prepare for Irexit.
    Why would they exit? The UK at least has a large enough domestic economy to keep them going but Ireland would lose all of these international companies the moment Ireland left. Ireland was a total backwater before it joined the EU. Or perhaps you think they'll join the UK?
    muthuk_vanalingamadm1
  • Reply 4 of 27
    KP81KP81 Posts: 4member
    foggyhill said:
    Apple should just give a big finger to Ireland and ship out somewhere else just on principle since they can't respect what they actually sign.
    Apple set up shop there because they lied basically.
    Staying there would just be rewarding liars.
    Eh isn’t Ireland contesting this within the confines of the law and the appeals process?? Why would Apple give two fingers to Ireland, the country who enabled the 0.005% tax setup. And then again why would Apple give two fingers to Ireland when it is not Ireland that wants to collect the tax bit rather the European Commission.

    It appears so far to this whole story that Ireland is in fact on Apples side and is costing ireland a few million already appealing this. Ireland simply must collect the money as ordered by the EU commission. 

    Your point seems entirely misdirected at the wrong participant. 
    muthuk_vanalingamasdasd
  • Reply 5 of 27
    KP81 said:
    foggyhill said:
    Apple should just give a big finger to Ireland and ship out somewhere else just on principle since they can't respect what they actually sign.
    Apple set up shop there because they lied basically.
    Staying there would just be rewarding liars.
    Eh isn’t Ireland contesting this within the confines of the law and the appeals process?? Why would Apple give two fingers to Ireland, the country who enabled the 0.005% tax setup. And then again why would Apple give two fingers to Ireland when it is not Ireland that wants to collect the tax bit rather the European Commission.

    It appears so far to this whole story that Ireland is in fact on Apples side and is costing ireland a few million already appealing this. Ireland simply must collect the money as ordered by the EU commission. 

    Your point seems entirely misdirected at the wrong participant. 
    It's not just Apple, there are many multinationals that located in Ireland to receive the benefits of locating there for access to EU markets. It was a smart business move at the time, but if these companies are blackmailed by EU tax collectors Ireland will no longer be recognized as a sensible place to do business and they will lose the companies that are there, not just Apple.
  • Reply 6 of 27
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 4,996member
    foggyhill said:
    Apple should just give a big finger to Ireland and ship out somewhere else just on principle since they can't respect what they actually sign.
    Apple set up shop there because they lied basically.
    Staying there would just be rewarding liars.
    You don’t seem to understand what went on. Or is going on. This demand is forced by the EU. 
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 7 of 27
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 4,996member
    KP81 said:
    foggyhill said:
    Apple should just give a big finger to Ireland and ship out somewhere else just on principle since they can't respect what they actually sign.
    Apple set up shop there because they lied basically.
    Staying there would just be rewarding liars.
    Eh isn’t Ireland contesting this within the confines of the law and the appeals process?? Why would Apple give two fingers to Ireland, the country who enabled the 0.005% tax setup. And then again why would Apple give two fingers to Ireland when it is not Ireland that wants to collect the tax bit rather the European Commission.

    It appears so far to this whole story that Ireland is in fact on Apples side and is costing ireland a few million already appealing this. Ireland simply must collect the money as ordered by the EU commission. 

    Your point seems entirely misdirected at the wrong participant. 
    It's not just Apple, there are many multinationals that located in Ireland to receive the benefits of locating there for access to EU markets. It was a smart business move at the time, but if these companies are blackmailed by EU tax collectors Ireland will no longer be recognized as a sensible place to do business and they will lose the companies that are there, not just Apple.
    Where are they going to go? If they want access to the EU they have to be in the EU. 

    Anyway after repatriation I don’t think Apple will owe any money is Europe. 
  • Reply 8 of 27
    Apple will need to pay 'the tax' either in Ireland or in the US.  From what I have read, there may be no advantage to Apple to prolong an expensive appeal.
    While the EU commission may claim 'victory' in this as Apple pays its tax bill, it will likely be paid to the US (where it belonged IMO). As well, many US  multinationals will return to the US. Hollow victory. The EU remains a large and important market but Margrethe Vestager [even her name makes me shudder] has made it very clear that the EU is/was not a warm environment for US companies. Hopefully Apple will not pull out of Ireland entirely.



    edited January 18
  • Reply 9 of 27
    adm1adm1 Posts: 756member
    foggyhill said:
    Apple should just give a big finger to Ireland and ship out somewhere else just on principle since they can't respect what they actually sign.
    Apple set up shop there because they lied basically.
    Staying there would just be rewarding liars.
    I'm sure Apple's money men knew all along the deal contravened EU law. Just like the recent payment to the UK, Apple's money men kept shtum until they were asked to pay it, which they did without delay or argument. 
    croprsingularity
  • Reply 10 of 27
    adm1adm1 Posts: 756member
    Apple will need to pay 'the tax' either in Ireland or in the US.  From what I have read, there may be no advantage to Apple to prolong an expensive appeal.
    While the EU commission may claim 'victory' in this as Apple pays its tax bill, it will likely be paid to the US (where it belonged IMO). As well, many US  multinationals will return to the US. Hollow victory. The EU remains a large and important market but Margrethe Vestager [even her name makes me shudder] has made it very clear that the EU is/was not a warm environment for US companies. Hopefully Apple will not pull out of Ireland entirely.



    Why would tax on sales outside of the US be owed to the US?

    Are you suggesting conversely that any products made by companies OUTSIDE of the US should be sold tax-free in the US too? That would create a mass exodus of companies leaving the US to whichever country offers the lowest tax rates.
  • Reply 11 of 27
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 4,996member
    adm1 said:
    Apple will need to pay 'the tax' either in Ireland or in the US.  From what I have read, there may be no advantage to Apple to prolong an expensive appeal.
    While the EU commission may claim 'victory' in this as Apple pays its tax bill, it will likely be paid to the US (where it belonged IMO). As well, many US  multinationals will return to the US. Hollow victory. The EU remains a large and important market but Margrethe Vestager [even her name makes me shudder] has made it very clear that the EU is/was not a warm environment for US companies. Hopefully Apple will not pull out of Ireland entirely.



    Why would tax on sales outside of the US be owed to the US?

    Are you suggesting conversely that any products made by companies OUTSIDE of the US should be sold tax-free in the US too? That would create a mass exodus of companies leaving the US to whichever country offers the lowest tax rates.
    That is the US law on the matter, taxes on worldwide income are due in the US when repatriated, which is why this repatriated money is being taxed. As to whether it affects the payments to Ireland or not, it could. If Apple had in the past repatriated all of its earnings every year then it clearly wouldnt owe that money to Ireland due to the fact that the US tax rates were higher. They are still higher. 

    It seems to me that some of this $35Bn must contain the 13bn euro, unless Apple has put aside that tax as already declared ( meaning that its US tax bill would be higher by this amount had there never been a EU case to answer). 
    edited January 18
  • Reply 12 of 27
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 4,996member

    adm1 said:
    foggyhill said:
    Apple should just give a big finger to Ireland and ship out somewhere else just on principle since they can't respect what they actually sign.
    Apple set up shop there because they lied basically.
    Staying there would just be rewarding liars.
    I'm sure Apple's money men knew all along the deal contravened EU law. Just like the recent payment to the UK, Apple's money men kept shtum until they were asked to pay it, which they did without delay or argument. 
    Thats not clear at all. Corporation tax is a core competancy of individual States. Therefore Ireland could have gone as low as 0%. What it couldnt do ( and this was decied retrospectively) was offer sweetheart deals to one company over others, as that was claimed to be State Aid.

    However thats a new reading on what constitutes State Aid. Therefore neither Ireland nor Apple would have known they were working outside any laws back in the day. 
  • Reply 13 of 27
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 4,996member

    Apple will need to pay 'the tax' either in Ireland or in the US.  From what I have read, there may be no advantage to Apple to prolong an expensive appeal.
    While the EU commission may claim 'victory' in this as Apple pays its tax bill, it will likely be paid to the US (where it belonged IMO). As well, many US  multinationals will return to the US. Hollow victory. The EU remains a large and important market but Margrethe Vestager [even her name makes me shudder] has made it very clear that the EU is/was not a warm environment for US companies. Hopefully Apple will not pull out of Ireland entirely.



    I dont think it will pull out. The Cork plant is basically AMEA support and it needs to be on that timezone. And it needs fluent and native speakers from Europe, the middle east, and Africa. 
  • Reply 14 of 27
    KP81KP81 Posts: 4member
    KP81 said:
    foggyhill said:
    Apple should just give a big finger to Ireland and ship out somewhere else just on principle since they can't respect what they actually sign.
    Apple set up shop there because they lied basically.
    Staying there would just be rewarding liars.
    Eh isn’t Ireland contesting this within the confines of the law and the appeals process?? Why would Apple give two fingers to Ireland, the country who enabled the 0.005% tax setup. And then again why would Apple give two fingers to Ireland when it is not Ireland that wants to collect the tax bit rather the European Commission.

    It appears so far to this whole story that Ireland is in fact on Apples side and is costing ireland a few million already appealing this. Ireland simply must collect the money as ordered by the EU commission. 

    Your point seems entirely misdirected at the wrong participant. 
    It's not just Apple, there are many multinationals that located in Ireland to receive the benefits of locating there for access to EU markets. It was a smart business move at the time, but if these companies are blackmailed by EU tax collectors Ireland will no longer be recognized as a sensible place to do business and they will lose the companies that are there, not just Apple.
    Here is the problem with that argument. Currently as it stands, No tax law treaties have been broken and this will be proved. 

    However your point stands that going forward this is an issue for ireland but also MNC. 

    Ironically, there isn’t any other EU country that could offer the savings to the big companies. So once this loophole or tax system is changed - No new system seems to be there to replace it. therefore another viewpoint is that ireland is willing to do anything that’s in its power to reduce the tax, including brushing up against the line of the law. 

    Funtimes ahead. 
  • Reply 15 of 27
    KP81 said:
    KP81 said:
    foggyhill said:
    Apple should just give a big finger to Ireland and ship out somewhere else just on principle since they can't respect what they actually sign.
    Apple set up shop there because they lied basically.
    Staying there would just be rewarding liars.
    Eh isn’t Ireland contesting this within the confines of the law and the appeals process?? Why would Apple give two fingers to Ireland, the country who enabled the 0.005% tax setup. And then again why would Apple give two fingers to Ireland when it is not Ireland that wants to collect the tax bit rather the European Commission.

    It appears so far to this whole story that Ireland is in fact on Apples side and is costing ireland a few million already appealing this. Ireland simply must collect the money as ordered by the EU commission. 

    Your point seems entirely misdirected at the wrong participant. 
    It's not just Apple, there are many multinationals that located in Ireland to receive the benefits of locating there for access to EU markets. It was a smart business move at the time, but if these companies are blackmailed by EU tax collectors Ireland will no longer be recognized as a sensible place to do business and they will lose the companies that are there, not just Apple.
    Here is the problem with that argument. Currently as it stands, No tax law treaties have been broken and this will be proved. 

    However your point stands that going forward this is an issue for ireland but also MNC. 

    Ironically, there isn’t any other EU country that could offer the savings to the big companies. So once this loophole or tax system is changed - No new system seems to be there to replace it. therefore another viewpoint is that ireland is willing to do anything that’s in its power to reduce the tax, including brushing up against the line of the law. 

    Funtimes ahead. 
    Yes, the final ruling after Apple’s and Ireland’s appeals will make the difference between Ireland being viewed as a place that is accommodating or hostile to foreign businesses and capital.
  • Reply 16 of 27
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 4,996member
    KP81 said:
    KP81 said:
    foggyhill said:
    Apple should just give a big finger to Ireland and ship out somewhere else just on principle since they can't respect what they actually sign.
    Apple set up shop there because they lied basically.
    Staying there would just be rewarding liars.
    Eh isn’t Ireland contesting this within the confines of the law and the appeals process?? Why would Apple give two fingers to Ireland, the country who enabled the 0.005% tax setup. And then again why would Apple give two fingers to Ireland when it is not Ireland that wants to collect the tax bit rather the European Commission.

    It appears so far to this whole story that Ireland is in fact on Apples side and is costing ireland a few million already appealing this. Ireland simply must collect the money as ordered by the EU commission. 

    Your point seems entirely misdirected at the wrong participant. 
    It's not just Apple, there are many multinationals that located in Ireland to receive the benefits of locating there for access to EU markets. It was a smart business move at the time, but if these companies are blackmailed by EU tax collectors Ireland will no longer be recognized as a sensible place to do business and they will lose the companies that are there, not just Apple.
    Here is the problem with that argument. Currently as it stands, No tax law treaties have been broken and this will be proved. 

    However your point stands that going forward this is an issue for ireland but also MNC. 

    Ironically, there isn’t any other EU country that could offer the savings to the big companies. So once this loophole or tax system is changed - No new system seems to be there to replace it. therefore another viewpoint is that ireland is willing to do anything that’s in its power to reduce the tax, including brushing up against the line of the law. 

    Funtimes ahead. 
    Yes, the final ruling after Apple’s and Ireland’s appeals will make the difference between Ireland being viewed as a place that is accommodating or hostile to foreign businesses and capital.
    The Irish government has appealed it as far as possible, along with Apple. They dont want the money ( to some consternation in Ireland). In the last few months Ireland has been put under pressume to get the money into escrow, so it is doing that. 

    BTW: all of this is in the original piece:

    In August 2016, the European Commission ruled that Ireland had extended illegal state aid to Apple, offering preferential terms that allowed it to pay extremely low amounts of tax as little as 0.005 percent in 2014 while funneling billions in international revenue through the country. The Commission also accused Ireland of reverse engineering taxes on the fly, in order to appease the iPhone producer. 

    Ireland has made slow progress in acquiring the funds from Apple, over a year and a half after the European Commission laid down its original ruling. In July, Ireland established an escrow fund to receive the tax payment, with appeals from both Apple and the government also believed to be holding up the process. 

    In October, the European Commission warned that it will bring Ireland to the European Court of Justice over the delays, noting that similar tax cases involving Fiat and Starbucks in other European countries saw funds recovered before appeals were exhausted, albeit for smaller amounts.

    Despite that, two hot heads popped in to this thread to rant about Ireland. 
    edited January 18
  • Reply 17 of 27
    Apple will need to pay 'the tax' either in Ireland or in the US.  From what I have read, there may be no advantage to Apple to prolong an expensive appeal.
    While the EU commission may claim 'victory' in this as Apple pays its tax bill, it will likely be paid to the US (where it belonged IMO). As well, many US  multinationals will return to the US. Hollow victory. The EU remains a large and important market but Margrethe Vestager [even her name makes me shudder] has made it very clear that the EU is/was not a warm environment for US companies. Hopefully Apple will not pull out of Ireland entirely.



    Apple would (or should) get a credit against the U.S. income taxes it owes, but it won't be a full credit. With the tax law changes and discounted rate on as-yet unremitted foreign earnings, only part of the taxes paid to other countries is credited against the so-called repatriation taxes due on those earnings. So, if Apple eventually has to pay this money to Ireland (i.e. rather than it being in an escrow fund), that will cost Apple money even taking into account the reduction in U.S. income taxes which would (or should) result. It just won't, effectively, cost Apple the full amount paid to Ireland.
    asdasd
  • Reply 18 of 27
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 4,996member
    carnegie said:
    Apple will need to pay 'the tax' either in Ireland or in the US.  From what I have read, there may be no advantage to Apple to prolong an expensive appeal.
    While the EU commission may claim 'victory' in this as Apple pays its tax bill, it will likely be paid to the US (where it belonged IMO). As well, many US  multinationals will return to the US. Hollow victory. The EU remains a large and important market but Margrethe Vestager [even her name makes me shudder] has made it very clear that the EU is/was not a warm environment for US companies. Hopefully Apple will not pull out of Ireland entirely.



    Apple would (or should) get a credit against the U.S. income taxes it owes, but it won't be a full credit. With the tax law changes and discounted rate on as-yet unremitted foreign earnings, only part of the taxes paid to other countries is credited against the so-called repatriation taxes due on those earnings. So, if Apple eventually has to pay this money to Ireland (i.e. rather than it being in an escrow fund), that will cost Apple money even taking into account the reduction in U.S. income taxes which would (or should) result. It just won't, effectively, cost Apple the full amount paid to Ireland.
    ok, so you are saying that it is paying American taxes now on the assumption that it wont have to pay the 13BN, but if it does it can claim some of it back from the US?

    The thing is the 13BN is an expense, Apple could argue that it is not a tax per say, since it is a fine of sorts. 
  • Reply 19 of 27
    adm1 said:
    foggyhill said:
    Apple should just give a big finger to Ireland and ship out somewhere else just on principle since they can't respect what they actually sign.
    Apple set up shop there because they lied basically.
    Staying there would just be rewarding liars.
    I'm sure Apple's money men knew all along the deal contravened EU law. Just like the recent payment to the UK, Apple's money men kept shtum until they were asked to pay it, which they did without delay or argument. 
    I don't see how they could have known that the EU would decide that Ireland wasn't allowed to implement its tax policies in the way that it did. Apple and Ireland were, I would think, operating under the assumption that Ireland was free to choose its own tax policies and interpret those policies as it saw fit - even if the EU didn't like those policies or the results. That is how it was supposed to work.

    I've read the European Commission's (full) decision (and other materials) and it doesn't demonstrate that Ireland's implementation of its tax policies with regard to Apple was in conflict with its tax policy implementation more generally. The decision pretends that it demonstrates that, but it doesn't. It more so demonstrates that Ireland's tax policies combined to yield, in Apple's case, results which the EU (and other parties) don't think are appropriate. It's fine for the Commission to think that Ireland's policies yielded results which aren't appropriate, but by its own rules that reality isn't actionable. That's why the Commission pretended that it had demonstrated something other than what it had. Apple couldn't have known (or, I think, shouldn't have been expected to know) that the Commission would one day come along and do that. Apple and Ireland might rightfully have expected the Commission to act in good faith in enforcing the rules which were in place rather than in bad faith such as to enforce rules which didn't exist (because some member nations wouldn't have agreed to them).


    adm1 said:
    teejay2012 said:
    Apple will need to pay 'the tax' either in Ireland or in the US.  From what I have read, there may be no advantage to Apple to prolong an expensive appeal.
    While the EU commission may claim 'victory' in this as Apple pays its tax bill, it will likely be paid to the US (where it belonged IMO). As well, many US  multinationals will return to the US. Hollow victory. The EU remains a large and important market but Margrethe Vestager [even her name makes me shudder] has made it very clear that the EU is/was not a warm environment for US companies. Hopefully Apple will not pull out of Ireland entirely.



    Why would tax on sales outside of the US be owed to the US?

    Are you suggesting conversely that any products made by companies OUTSIDE of the US should be sold tax-free in the US too? That would create a mass exodus of companies leaving the US to whichever country offers the lowest tax rates.

    In broad strokes...

    Most countries (at least, those with advanced economies) don't tax income based on where transactions occur, they tax income based on where value is deemed to be created (though often those things are the same). They do that deliberately, it isn't an oversight in tax policy implementation. They want, e.g., to be able to tax economic activity that occurs within their borders even if the resulting products are sold elsewhere. It would be quite problematic if all countries tried to tax income based both on where value is created and where transactions occur, so most have effectively agreed to do the former and allow other nations to do the same even if some of the income which other nations are taxing results from transactions which occur within the first county's borders.

    Not wanting to forego potential tax revenues from transactions which occur within their borders, many countries also impose VAT or sales taxes. So income is taxed based on where value is deemed to be created and transactions are taxed based on where they occur. The latter, in effect, stands in place of being able to tax the income resulting from those transactions.

    So, as a very simplistic (and made up example) of how income taxation might work across borders...

    Apple sells an iPhone in Brazil for (the equivalent of) $800. It makes $200 profit on that iPhone. Most of that profit is considered to be created in the United States because, e.g., that's where iPhones are designed and where the IP behind them is owned. So most of the taxes paid on the income generated from that sale go to the United States. Some small portion of the profit may be considered to be made in Brazil. Say, Apple has a retail store there and a small piece of Apple's total profit from that iPhone is considered to come from making the retail sale. Maybe Apple, in effect, charges the Apple store the same for each iPhone as it charges third-party retailers, leaving the Apple store itself without a lot of margin. Thus, after accounting for its own expenses, the store doesn't itself make a lot of profit. But income taxes are paid to Brazil on whatever profit is considered to be made there. Brazil might also choose to impose a VAT-like tax on sales made there, so it gets a (perhaps bigger) piece of the pie that way.

    Some countries - e.g., the U.S., formerly - also choose to tax the income of domestic corporations even if that income is a result of value which is created elsewhere. We refer to that as an extraterritorial tax system. Typically, in such systems, domestic income taxes are only applied to that foreign income (i.e. income which comes from value created elsewhere) to the extent the foreign jurisdiction which had first crack at taxing the income in question didn't tax it enough - i.e.. the taxes paid on it weren't as much as would have to have been paid if the value was created in the first country, where the (parent) corporation legally exists. 
    edited January 18 asdasd
  • Reply 20 of 27
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 4,996member
    carnegie said:


    Apple sells an iPhone in Brazil for (the equivalent of) $800. It makes $200 profit on that iPhone. Most of that profit is considered to be created in the United States because, e.g., that's where iPhones are designed and where the IP behind them is owned. So most of the taxes paid on the income generated from that sale go to the United States. Some small portion of the profit may be considered to be made in Brazil. Say, Apple has a retail store there and a small piece of Apple's total profit from that iPhone is considered to come from making the retail sale. Maybe Apple, in effect, charges the Apple store the same for each iPhone as it charges third-party retailers, leaving the Apple store itself without a lot of margin. Thus, after accounting for its own expenses, the store doesn't itself make a lot of profit. But income taxes are paid to Brazil on whatever profit is considered to be made there. Brazil might also choose to impose a VAT-like tax on sales made there, so it gets a (perhaps bigger) piece of the pie that way.



    A lot of people dont get that point. The only corporation tax that Apple owes consumer countries is the corporation tax on profit made in the Apple stores. Those stores are legal entities in the consumer countries, and like all shops they buy at wholesale prices and sell at retail prices, and that revenue minus expenses, is what is owed.  Since Apple owed back taxes to France, the UK etc it is on those retail profits pre phone, not on the whole profit made per iphone sale. 

    Some European countries think they can get some of that 13Bn pie. Not so, it is owed in Ireland or the US. Where the IP is added or in Ireland's case transferred. 
    edited January 18 KP81
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