It's almost like you have to work at not understanding...
The HomePod's tweeters, seven, are spaced evenly around it to project sound in all directions; hence why sticking the HomePod in close proximity to other speakers, in the case of CR and David Pogue, reduces its ability to provide optimization of it's tweeters to the room. Surely not a big deal, but kind of defeats the purpose of buying a device with seven tweeters if you reduce the benefit of even a few of them. This has nothing to do with the scientific tests that Apple performs in it's lab or other audio professionals; only with these side by side test procedures.
So yeah, your front facing HomeMax, having no ambient beam forming ability, isn't actually like a HomePod at all when it comes to the tweeters, or microphones, for that matter, but still you made the effort to demonstrate how "equivalent" that they are, failing in my opinion.
I'll leave it at that.
Before HomePod: I want speakers that will direct sound a central point of a room. After HomePod: Speakers should be centrally located in a room so that you scurry along walls and huddle in any corner.
Let us know when nightclubs replace all their equipment with a single giant tower in the center of the dance floor so everyone can dance around it. Hell, even at concerts where the stage is centrally located there are speakers in the back and to the sides. Do you really think that a single, centrally located music box is how dance clubs or even HECs are going to be set up now because of the HomePod? Apple doesn't even think that since they 1) demonstrated it against a wall and 2) talked about using two in unison for surround sound.
Gee, is that even what I represented? No.
Have I not been speaking of this since the great med student audiophile test. Yes.
Did Apple have it against the wall or in proximity to the wall? How far away was it? There's a substantial difference when you are speaking of beam forming between two tweeters spaced 51 degree apart.
I only stated that objects in close proximity to any of the tweeters would potentially have an adverse impact. The so-called speaker test was an example; the other speakers were within four to five inches of the sides of the HomePod, potentially blocking output of a couple of the tweeters. Sure, algorithms will resolve this the best that they can, but why would anyone want to arbitrarily decrease performance? Would you look shocked if someone placed a couple of beers in front of your tiny little 2 way speaker, blocking the output? I'm thinking probably, but you think it is all fine to do that with the HomePod; really shows a basic lack of awareness of the workings of beam forming.
The more space, the better the beam forming for the direct and ambient sound. The woofer is not even an issue.
I am impressed with how incurious so many of you so called audiophile's are; almost afraid of upsetting the status quo.
I underlined a specific statement you made and addressed it specifically. I didn’t think there was any ambiguity to my observation. In no way am I discounting any of your statements with GG (or his, for that matter, because I’m not anyaying that aspect of this thread).
To restate point another way that is more succinct and hopefully comes across as more nuetral: the HomePod is the first time I can recall ever seeing people talk about centrifugal audio, as opposed to the common centripetal audio, for lack of better terms.
PS: I don’t think I’ve ever described myself as an adiophile, nor would I consider myself one.
In my statement, the words "close proximity to other speakers" was in that very same sentence. In no way did that sentence either state or imply the center of a room for HomePod placement.
A speaker that can output over a 360 degree arc and beam form up to 7 individual tweeters based on the ambient sounds that 6 microphones pickup, and that the A8 SOC processes.
Not the same as a two way speaker, and not the same as the HomeMax, which has more limited direct beam forming, with no ambient beam forming.
I think those 6 microphones you are referring to are used for "listening" for Hey Siri and the command that follows, not for dynamic sound adjustment to the tweeters. As I read it there's only one microphone monitoring sound in real-time and it's not for the tweeters but instead helping to prevent distortion from the woofer. That one is in addition to the six far-field one's you are thinking of used for voice-recognition with /Siri, so technically there's 7 microphones.
I know it's all a bit confusing with the marketing mish-mash and competing claims of the HomePod does this or that from review to review but the sound adjustment based on the listening space ("the room") occurs only when first set up or when moved enough to trigger the accelerometer. Shifting all the furniture around in the room after setting up your HomePod won't cause it to change any "tweeter beam-forming" that might be taking place if the HomePod itself isn't moved too. That's how I read it anyway.
...and apologies for chiming in once more, even if to correct a misunderstanding.
It's almost like you have to work at not understanding...
The HomePod's tweeters, seven, are spaced evenly around it to project sound in all directions; hence why sticking the HomePod in close proximity to other speakers, in the case of CR and David Pogue, reduces its ability to provide optimization of it's tweeters to the room. Surely not a big deal, but kind of defeats the purpose of buying a device with seven tweeters if you reduce the benefit of even a few of them. This has nothing to do with the scientific tests that Apple performs in it's lab or other audio professionals; only with these side by side test procedures.
So yeah, your front facing HomeMax, having no ambient beam forming ability, isn't actually like a HomePod at all when it comes to the tweeters, or microphones, for that matter, but still you made the effort to demonstrate how "equivalent" that they are, failing in my opinion.
I'll leave it at that.
Before HomePod: I want speakers that will direct sound a central point of a room. After HomePod: Speakers should be centrally located in a room so that you scurry along walls and huddle in any corner.
Let us know when nightclubs replace all their equipment with a single giant tower in the center of the dance floor so everyone can dance around it. Hell, even at concerts where the stage is centrally located there are speakers in the back and to the sides. Do you really think that a single, centrally located music box is how dance clubs or even HECs are going to be set up now because of the HomePod? Apple doesn't even think that since they 1) demonstrated it against a wall and 2) talked about using two in unison for surround sound.
Gee, is that even what I represented? No.
Have I not been speaking of this since the great med student audiophile test. Yes.
Did Apple have it against the wall or in proximity to the wall? How far away was it? There's a substantial difference when you are speaking of beam forming between two tweeters spaced 51 degree apart.
I only stated that objects in close proximity to any of the tweeters would potentially have an adverse impact. The so-called speaker test was an example; the other speakers were within four to five inches of the sides of the HomePod, potentially blocking output of a couple of the tweeters. Sure, algorithms will resolve this the best that they can, but why would anyone want to arbitrarily decrease performance? Would you look shocked if someone placed a couple of beers in front of your tiny little 2 way speaker, blocking the output? I'm thinking probably, but you think it is all fine to do that with the HomePod; really shows a basic lack of awareness of the workings of beam forming.
The more space, the better the beam forming for the direct and ambient sound. The woofer is not even an issue.
I am impressed with how incurious so many of you so called audiophile's are; almost afraid of upsetting the status quo.
I underlined a specific statement you made and addressed it specifically. I didn’t think there was any ambiguity to my observation. In no way am I discounting any of your statements with GG (or his, for that matter, because I’m not anyaying that aspect of this thread).
To restate point another way that is more succinct and hopefully comes across as more nuetral: the HomePod is the first time I can recall ever seeing people talk about centrifugal audio, as opposed to the common centripetal audio, for lack of better terms.
PS: I don’t think I’ve ever described myself as an adiophile, nor would I consider myself one.
In my statement, the words "close proximity to other speakers" was in that very same sentence. In no way did that sentence either state or imply the center of a room for HomePod placement.
A speaker that can output over a 360 degree arc and beam form up to 7 individual tweeters based on the ambient sounds that 6 microphones pickup, and that the A8 SOC processes.
Not the same as a two way speaker, and not the same as the HomeMax, which has more limited direct beam forming, with no ambient beam forming.
I think those 6 microphones you are referring to are used for "listening" for Hey Siri and the command that follows, not for dynamic sound adjustment to the tweeters. As I read it there's only one microphone monitoring sound in real-time and it's not for the tweeters but instead helping to prevent distortion from the woofer. That one is in addition to the six far-field one's you are thinking of used for voice-recognition with /Siri, so technically there's 7 microphones.
I know it's all a bit confusing with the marketing mish-mash and competing claims of the HomePod does this or that from review to review but the sound adjustment based on the listening space ("the room") occurs only when first set up or when moved enough to trigger the accelerometer. Shifting all the furniture around in the room after setting up your HomePod won't cause it to change any "tweeter beam-forming" that might be taking place if the HomePod itself isn't moved too. That's how I read it anyway.
...and apologies for chiming in once more, even if to correct a misunderstanding.
Here's the link to the AI article that has the details, most of them anyway, from late January;
My reading is that the 6 microphones do provide input for the beam forming tweeters, but I don't know if that is fact or expert speculation by Matt Hines:
"In the case of Apple, it's using array of six microphones and a digital signal processor (DSP) to understand the environment based on its acoustics, and adapt the device's output to better suit its physical location and the room's audio profile. Considering the multiple speakers and the microphone array, it is possible for such a system to customize the output of each speaker to allow for a similar sound to be heard through as much of the environment's space as possible".
There's a lot of speculative stuff from the invited expert, Matt Hines, in this article. That makes it hard to determine what features are or are not enabled by Apple.
The article notes that these are also use for "Hey Siri".
Please note placement of the HomePod in the image, I think sourced from Apple. That configuration likely gives ideal beam forming for the tweeters providing ambience.
It's almost like you have to work at not understanding...
The HomePod's tweeters, seven, are spaced evenly around it to project sound in all directions; hence why sticking the HomePod in close proximity to other speakers, in the case of CR and David Pogue, reduces its ability to provide optimization of it's tweeters to the room. Surely not a big deal, but kind of defeats the purpose of buying a device with seven tweeters if you reduce the benefit of even a few of them. This has nothing to do with the scientific tests that Apple performs in it's lab or other audio professionals; only with these side by side test procedures.
So yeah, your front facing HomeMax, having no ambient beam forming ability, isn't actually like a HomePod at all when it comes to the tweeters, or microphones, for that matter, but still you made the effort to demonstrate how "equivalent" that they are, failing in my opinion.
I'll leave it at that.
Before HomePod: I want speakers that will direct sound a central point of a room. After HomePod: Speakers should be centrally located in a room so that you scurry along walls and huddle in any corner.
Let us know when nightclubs replace all their equipment with a single giant tower in the center of the dance floor so everyone can dance around it. Hell, even at concerts where the stage is centrally located there are speakers in the back and to the sides. Do you really think that a single, centrally located music box is how dance clubs or even HECs are going to be set up now because of the HomePod? Apple doesn't even think that since they 1) demonstrated it against a wall and 2) talked about using two in unison for surround sound.
Gee, is that even what I represented? No.
Have I not been speaking of this since the great med student audiophile test. Yes.
Did Apple have it against the wall or in proximity to the wall? How far away was it? There's a substantial difference when you are speaking of beam forming between two tweeters spaced 51 degree apart.
I only stated that objects in close proximity to any of the tweeters would potentially have an adverse impact. The so-called speaker test was an example; the other speakers were within four to five inches of the sides of the HomePod, potentially blocking output of a couple of the tweeters. Sure, algorithms will resolve this the best that they can, but why would anyone want to arbitrarily decrease performance? Would you look shocked if someone placed a couple of beers in front of your tiny little 2 way speaker, blocking the output? I'm thinking probably, but you think it is all fine to do that with the HomePod; really shows a basic lack of awareness of the workings of beam forming.
The more space, the better the beam forming for the direct and ambient sound. The woofer is not even an issue.
I am impressed with how incurious so many of you so called audiophile's are; almost afraid of upsetting the status quo.
I underlined a specific statement you made and addressed it specifically. I didn’t think there was any ambiguity to my observation. In no way am I discounting any of your statements with GG (or his, for that matter, because I’m not anyaying that aspect of this thread).
To restate point another way that is more succinct and hopefully comes across as more nuetral: the HomePod is the first time I can recall ever seeing people talk about centrifugal audio, as opposed to the common centripetal audio, for lack of better terms.
PS: I don’t think I’ve ever described myself as an adiophile, nor would I consider myself one.
In my statement, the words "close proximity to other speakers" was in that very same sentence. In no way did that sentence either state or imply the center of a room for HomePod placement.
A speaker that can output over a 360 degree arc and beam form up to 7 individual tweeters based on the ambient sounds that 6 microphones pickup, and that the A8 SOC processes.
Not the same as a two way speaker, and not the same as the HomeMax, which has more limited direct beam forming, with no ambient beam forming.
I think those 6 microphones you are referring to are used for "listening" for Hey Siri and the command that follows, not for dynamic sound adjustment to the tweeters. As I read it there's only one microphone monitoring sound in real-time and it's not for the tweeters but instead helping to prevent distortion from the woofer. That one is in addition to the six far-field one's you are thinking of used for voice-recognition with /Siri, so technically there's 7 microphones.
I know it's all a bit confusing with the marketing mish-mash and competing claims of the HomePod does this or that from review to review but the sound adjustment based on the listening space ("the room") occurs only when first set up or when moved enough to trigger the accelerometer. Shifting all the furniture around in the room after setting up your HomePod won't cause it to change any "tweeter beam-forming" that might be taking place if the HomePod itself isn't moved too. That's how I read it anyway.
...and apologies for chiming in once more, even if to correct a misunderstanding.
Here's the link to the AI article that has the details, most of them anyway, from late January;
My reading is that the 6 microphones do provide input for the beam forming tweeters, but I don't know if that is fact or expert speculation by Matt Hines:
"In the case of Apple, it's using array of six microphones and a digital signal processor (DSP) to understand the environment based on its acoustics, and adapt the device's output to better suit its physical location and the room's audio profile. Considering the multiple speakers and the microphone array, it is possible for such a system to customize the output of each speaker to allow for a similar sound to be heard through as much of the environment's space as possible".
There's a lot of speculative stuff from the invited expert, Matt Hines, in this article. That makes it hard to determine what features are or are not enabled by Apple.
The article notes that these are also use for "Hey Siri".
Please note placement of the HomePod in the image, I think sourced from Apple. That configuration likely gives ideal beam forming for the tweeters providing ambience.
If you read Apple's HomePod product page VERY carefully I think you'll be able to figure out whether those 6 far-field microphones are being used for dynamic sound adjustment. It's really tricky working but just pay attention to exactly what Apple has to say rather than making an assumption about what they meant. Note that they do specifically mention a microphone dedicated to the woofer for dynamic adjustment, something they don't claim at all regarding the tweeters. I have no doubt that if they did they'd promote it in the marketing.
Apple is very careful with the way they word things as they should be.
Taking the room out of the equation and only looking at sound at the sweet spot made sense when speakers well, could not do anything to provide off axis sound and deal with the room.
Right now, it’s seems like professional malfeasance to do it the way they did it.
Taking the room out of the equation and only looking at sound at the seeet spot made sense when speakers well, could not do anything to provide off axis sound and deal with the room.
Right niw, it’s seems like professional malfeasance to do it the way the did it.
That's not what Pogue did tho Foggy. He set-up and initialized the HomePod to the room and for the placement just as you would at home. He did the same for the Sonos and the HomeMax as well. They were all treated the same way and the room was not "taken out of the equation". You can bet that nearly everyone ends up placing the HomePod next to a wall or walls, becoming more front-firing than 360 anyway. Besides that I'm sure you aren't saying that the HomePod sounds better off-axis than standing in front of it and so Pogue intentionally handicapped the HomePod because of where the listeners were.
It's almost like you have to work at not understanding...
The HomePod's tweeters, seven, are spaced evenly around it to project sound in all directions; hence why sticking the HomePod in close proximity to other speakers, in the case of CR and David Pogue, reduces its ability to provide optimization of it's tweeters to the room. Surely not a big deal, but kind of defeats the purpose of buying a device with seven tweeters if you reduce the benefit of even a few of them. This has nothing to do with the scientific tests that Apple performs in it's lab or other audio professionals; only with these side by side test procedures.
So yeah, your front facing HomeMax, having no ambient beam forming ability, isn't actually like a HomePod at all when it comes to the tweeters, or microphones, for that matter, but still you made the effort to demonstrate how "equivalent" that they are, failing in my opinion.
I'll leave it at that.
Before HomePod: I want speakers that will direct sound a central point of a room. After HomePod: Speakers should be centrally located in a room so that you scurry along walls and huddle in any corner.
Let us know when nightclubs replace all their equipment with a single giant tower in the center of the dance floor so everyone can dance around it. Hell, even at concerts where the stage is centrally located there are speakers in the back and to the sides. Do you really think that a single, centrally located music box is how dance clubs or even HECs are going to be set up now because of the HomePod? Apple doesn't even think that since they 1) demonstrated it against a wall and 2) talked about using two in unison for surround sound.
Gee, is that even what I represented? No.
Have I not been speaking of this since the great med student audiophile test. Yes.
Did Apple have it against the wall or in proximity to the wall? How far away was it? There's a substantial difference when you are speaking of beam forming between two tweeters spaced 51 degree apart.
I only stated that objects in close proximity to any of the tweeters would potentially have an adverse impact. The so-called speaker test was an example; the other speakers were within four to five inches of the sides of the HomePod, potentially blocking output of a couple of the tweeters. Sure, algorithms will resolve this the best that they can, but why would anyone want to arbitrarily decrease performance? Would you look shocked if someone placed a couple of beers in front of your tiny little 2 way speaker, blocking the output? I'm thinking probably, but you think it is all fine to do that with the HomePod; really shows a basic lack of awareness of the workings of beam forming.
The more space, the better the beam forming for the direct and ambient sound. The woofer is not even an issue.
I am impressed with how incurious so many of you so called audiophile's are; almost afraid of upsetting the status quo.
I underlined a specific statement you made and addressed it specifically. I didn’t think there was any ambiguity to my observation. In no way am I discounting any of your statements with GG (or his, for that matter, because I’m not anyaying that aspect of this thread).
To restate point another way that is more succinct and hopefully comes across as more nuetral: the HomePod is the first time I can recall ever seeing people talk about centrifugal audio, as opposed to the common centripetal audio, for lack of better terms.
PS: I don’t think I’ve ever described myself as an adiophile, nor would I consider myself one.
In my statement, the words "close proximity to other speakers" was in that very same sentence. In no way did that sentence either state or imply the center of a room for HomePod placement.
A speaker that can output over a 360 degree arc and beam form up to 7 individual tweeters based on the ambient sounds that 6 microphones pickup, and that the A8 SOC processes.
Not the same as a two way speaker, and not the same as the HomeMax, which has more limited direct beam forming, with no ambient beam forming.
I think those 6 microphones you are referring to are used for "listening" for Hey Siri and the command that follows, not for dynamic sound adjustment to the tweeters. As I read it there's only one microphone monitoring sound in real-time and it's not for the tweeters but instead helping to prevent distortion from the woofer. That one is in addition to the six far-field one's you are thinking of used for voice-recognition with /Siri, so technically there's 7 microphones.
I know it's all a bit confusing with the marketing mish-mash and competing claims of the HomePod does this or that from review to review but the sound adjustment based on the listening space ("the room") occurs only when first set up or when moved enough to trigger the accelerometer. Shifting all the furniture around in the room after setting up your HomePod won't cause it to change any "tweeter beam-forming" that might be taking place if the HomePod itself isn't moved too. That's how I read it anyway.
...and apologies for chiming in once more, even if to correct a misunderstanding.
Here's the link to the AI article that has the details, most of them anyway, from late January;
My reading is that the 6 microphones do provide input for the beam forming tweeters, but I don't know if that is fact or expert speculation by Matt Hines:
"In the case of Apple, it's using array of six microphones and a digital signal processor (DSP) to understand the environment based on its acoustics, and adapt the device's output to better suit its physical location and the room's audio profile. Considering the multiple speakers and the microphone array, it is possible for such a system to customize the output of each speaker to allow for a similar sound to be heard through as much of the environment's space as possible".
There's a lot of speculative stuff from the invited expert, Matt Hines, in this article. That makes it hard to determine what features are or are not enabled by Apple.
The article notes that these are also use for "Hey Siri".
Please note placement of the HomePod in the image, I think sourced from Apple. That configuration likely gives ideal beam forming for the tweeters providing ambience.
If you read Apple's HomePod product page VERY carefully I think you'll be able to figure out whether those 6 far-field microphones are being used for dynamic sound adjustment. It's really tricky working but just pay attention to exactly what Apple has to say rather than making an assumption about what they meant. Note that they do specifically mention a microphone dedicated to the woofer for dynamic adjustment, something they don't claim at all regarding the tweeters. I have no doubt that if they did they'd promote it in the marketing.
Apple is very careful with the way they word things as they should be.
If you are analyzing a room, using a single microphone would be a real handicap. As well, I doubt that the audio engineers would have opted out of using all of the microphones available for mapping the space and balancing the tweeter outputs.
I'm going with Matt on this as fact, not his speculation,
It's almost like you have to work at not understanding...
The HomePod's tweeters, seven, are spaced evenly around it to project sound in all directions; hence why sticking the HomePod in close proximity to other speakers, in the case of CR and David Pogue, reduces its ability to provide optimization of it's tweeters to the room. Surely not a big deal, but kind of defeats the purpose of buying a device with seven tweeters if you reduce the benefit of even a few of them. This has nothing to do with the scientific tests that Apple performs in it's lab or other audio professionals; only with these side by side test procedures.
So yeah, your front facing HomeMax, having no ambient beam forming ability, isn't actually like a HomePod at all when it comes to the tweeters, or microphones, for that matter, but still you made the effort to demonstrate how "equivalent" that they are, failing in my opinion.
I'll leave it at that.
Before HomePod: I want speakers that will direct sound a central point of a room. After HomePod: Speakers should be centrally located in a room so that you scurry along walls and huddle in any corner.
Let us know when nightclubs replace all their equipment with a single giant tower in the center of the dance floor so everyone can dance around it. Hell, even at concerts where the stage is centrally located there are speakers in the back and to the sides. Do you really think that a single, centrally located music box is how dance clubs or even HECs are going to be set up now because of the HomePod? Apple doesn't even think that since they 1) demonstrated it against a wall and 2) talked about using two in unison for surround sound.
Gee, is that even what I represented? No.
Have I not been speaking of this since the great med student audiophile test. Yes.
Did Apple have it against the wall or in proximity to the wall? How far away was it? There's a substantial difference when you are speaking of beam forming between two tweeters spaced 51 degree apart.
I only stated that objects in close proximity to any of the tweeters would potentially have an adverse impact. The so-called speaker test was an example; the other speakers were within four to five inches of the sides of the HomePod, potentially blocking output of a couple of the tweeters. Sure, algorithms will resolve this the best that they can, but why would anyone want to arbitrarily decrease performance? Would you look shocked if someone placed a couple of beers in front of your tiny little 2 way speaker, blocking the output? I'm thinking probably, but you think it is all fine to do that with the HomePod; really shows a basic lack of awareness of the workings of beam forming.
The more space, the better the beam forming for the direct and ambient sound. The woofer is not even an issue.
I am impressed with how incurious so many of you so called audiophile's are; almost afraid of upsetting the status quo.
I underlined a specific statement you made and addressed it specifically. I didn’t think there was any ambiguity to my observation. In no way am I discounting any of your statements with GG (or his, for that matter, because I’m not anyaying that aspect of this thread).
To restate point another way that is more succinct and hopefully comes across as more nuetral: the HomePod is the first time I can recall ever seeing people talk about centrifugal audio, as opposed to the common centripetal audio, for lack of better terms.
PS: I don’t think I’ve ever described myself as an adiophile, nor would I consider myself one.
In my statement, the words "close proximity to other speakers" was in that very same sentence. In no way did that sentence either state or imply the center of a room for HomePod placement.
A speaker that can output over a 360 degree arc and beam form up to 7 individual tweeters based on the ambient sounds that 6 microphones pickup, and that the A8 SOC processes.
Not the same as a two way speaker, and not the same as the HomeMax, which has more limited direct beam forming, with no ambient beam forming.
I think those 6 microphones you are referring to are used for "listening" for Hey Siri and the command that follows, not for dynamic sound adjustment to the tweeters. As I read it there's only one microphone monitoring sound in real-time and it's not for the tweeters but instead helping to prevent distortion from the woofer. That one is in addition to the six far-field one's you are thinking of used for voice-recognition with /Siri, so technically there's 7 microphones.
I know it's all a bit confusing with the marketing mish-mash and competing claims of the HomePod does this or that from review to review but the sound adjustment based on the listening space ("the room") occurs only when first set up or when moved enough to trigger the accelerometer. Shifting all the furniture around in the room after setting up your HomePod won't cause it to change any "tweeter beam-forming" that might be taking place if the HomePod itself isn't moved too. That's how I read it anyway.
...and apologies for chiming in once more, even if to correct a misunderstanding.
Here's the link to the AI article that has the details, most of them anyway, from late January;
My reading is that the 6 microphones do provide input for the beam forming tweeters, but I don't know if that is fact or expert speculation by Matt Hines:
"In the case of Apple, it's using array of six microphones and a digital signal processor (DSP) to understand the environment based on its acoustics, and adapt the device's output to better suit its physical location and the room's audio profile. Considering the multiple speakers and the microphone array, it is possible for such a system to customize the output of each speaker to allow for a similar sound to be heard through as much of the environment's space as possible".
There's a lot of speculative stuff from the invited expert, Matt Hines, in this article. That makes it hard to determine what features are or are not enabled by Apple.
The article notes that these are also use for "Hey Siri".
Please note placement of the HomePod in the image, I think sourced from Apple. That configuration likely gives ideal beam forming for the tweeters providing ambience.
If you read Apple's HomePod product page VERY carefully I think you'll be able to figure out whether those 6 far-field microphones are being used for dynamic sound adjustment. It's really tricky working but just pay attention to exactly what Apple has to say rather than making an assumption about what they meant. Note that they do specifically mention a microphone dedicated to the woofer for dynamic adjustment, something they don't claim at all regarding the tweeters. I have no doubt that if they did they'd promote it in the marketing.
Apple is very careful with the way they word things as they should be.
If you are analyzing a room, using a single microphone would be a real handicap. As well, I doubt that the audio engineers would have opted out of using all of the microphones available for mapping the space and balancing the tweeter outputs.
I'm going with Matt on this as fact, not his speculation,
Oh I'm not claiming those microphones were never used in mapping the room initially in setup. I'm disagreeing with you about them being used for dynamic sound adjustments from those tweeters. Pretty sure you can go with me on that one.
Hines himself plainly and clearly says he's supposing and not stating fact, and in his defense Apple hadn't yet put up their product page that would have made things clearer for him: "IF HomePod is running a realtime DSP that can alter the sound emitted from each of the device's seven tweeter speakers..." He' seems a bit more certain about the bass and real-time adjustments, and with that I agree.
It's almost like you have to work at not understanding...
The HomePod's tweeters, seven, are spaced evenly around it to project sound in all directions; hence why sticking the HomePod in close proximity to other speakers, in the case of CR and David Pogue, reduces its ability to provide optimization of it's tweeters to the room. Surely not a big deal, but kind of defeats the purpose of buying a device with seven tweeters if you reduce the benefit of even a few of them. This has nothing to do with the scientific tests that Apple performs in it's lab or other audio professionals; only with these side by side test procedures.
So yeah, your front facing HomeMax, having no ambient beam forming ability, isn't actually like a HomePod at all when it comes to the tweeters, or microphones, for that matter, but still you made the effort to demonstrate how "equivalent" that they are, failing in my opinion.
I'll leave it at that.
Before HomePod: I want speakers that will direct sound a central point of a room. After HomePod: Speakers should be centrally located in a room so that you scurry along walls and huddle in any corner.
Let us know when nightclubs replace all their equipment with a single giant tower in the center of the dance floor so everyone can dance around it. Hell, even at concerts where the stage is centrally located there are speakers in the back and to the sides. Do you really think that a single, centrally located music box is how dance clubs or even HECs are going to be set up now because of the HomePod? Apple doesn't even think that since they 1) demonstrated it against a wall and 2) talked about using two in unison for surround sound.
Gee, is that even what I represented? No.
Have I not been speaking of this since the great med student audiophile test. Yes.
Did Apple have it against the wall or in proximity to the wall? How far away was it? There's a substantial difference when you are speaking of beam forming between two tweeters spaced 51 degree apart.
I only stated that objects in close proximity to any of the tweeters would potentially have an adverse impact. The so-called speaker test was an example; the other speakers were within four to five inches of the sides of the HomePod, potentially blocking output of a couple of the tweeters. Sure, algorithms will resolve this the best that they can, but why would anyone want to arbitrarily decrease performance? Would you look shocked if someone placed a couple of beers in front of your tiny little 2 way speaker, blocking the output? I'm thinking probably, but you think it is all fine to do that with the HomePod; really shows a basic lack of awareness of the workings of beam forming.
The more space, the better the beam forming for the direct and ambient sound. The woofer is not even an issue.
I am impressed with how incurious so many of you so called audiophile's are; almost afraid of upsetting the status quo.
I underlined a specific statement you made and addressed it specifically. I didn’t think there was any ambiguity to my observation. In no way am I discounting any of your statements with GG (or his, for that matter, because I’m not anyaying that aspect of this thread).
To restate point another way that is more succinct and hopefully comes across as more nuetral: the HomePod is the first time I can recall ever seeing people talk about centrifugal audio, as opposed to the common centripetal audio, for lack of better terms.
PS: I don’t think I’ve ever described myself as an adiophile, nor would I consider myself one.
In my statement, the words "close proximity to other speakers" was in that very same sentence. In no way did that sentence either state or imply the center of a room for HomePod placement.
A speaker that can output over a 360 degree arc and beam form up to 7 individual tweeters based on the ambient sounds that 6 microphones pickup, and that the A8 SOC processes.
Not the same as a two way speaker, and not the same as the HomeMax, which has more limited direct beam forming, with no ambient beam forming.
I think those 6 microphones you are referring to are used for "listening" for Hey Siri and the command that follows, not for dynamic sound adjustment to the tweeters. As I read it there's only one microphone monitoring sound in real-time and it's not for the tweeters but instead helping to prevent distortion from the woofer. That one is in addition to the six far-field one's you are thinking of used for voice-recognition with /Siri, so technically there's 7 microphones.
I know it's all a bit confusing with the marketing mish-mash and competing claims of the HomePod does this or that from review to review but the sound adjustment based on the listening space ("the room") occurs only when first set up or when moved enough to trigger the accelerometer. Shifting all the furniture around in the room after setting up your HomePod won't cause it to change any "tweeter beam-forming" that might be taking place if the HomePod itself isn't moved too. That's how I read it anyway.
...and apologies for chiming in once more, even if to correct a misunderstanding.
Here's the link to the AI article that has the details, most of them anyway, from late January;
My reading is that the 6 microphones do provide input for the beam forming tweeters, but I don't know if that is fact or expert speculation by Matt Hines:
"In the case of Apple, it's using array of six microphones and a digital signal processor (DSP) to understand the environment based on its acoustics, and adapt the device's output to better suit its physical location and the room's audio profile. Considering the multiple speakers and the microphone array, it is possible for such a system to customize the output of each speaker to allow for a similar sound to be heard through as much of the environment's space as possible".
There's a lot of speculative stuff from the invited expert, Matt Hines, in this article. That makes it hard to determine what features are or are not enabled by Apple.
The article notes that these are also use for "Hey Siri".
Please note placement of the HomePod in the image, I think sourced from Apple. That configuration likely gives ideal beam forming for the tweeters providing ambience.
If you read Apple's HomePod product page VERY carefully I think you'll be able to figure out whether those 6 far-field microphones are being used for dynamic sound adjustment. It's really tricky working but just pay attention to exactly what Apple has to say rather than making an assumption about what they meant. Note that they do specifically mention a microphone dedicated to the woofer for dynamic adjustment, something they don't claim at all regarding the tweeters. I have no doubt that if they did they'd promote it in the marketing.
Apple is very careful with the way they word things as they should be.
If you are analyzing a room, using a single microphone would be a real handicap. As well, I doubt that the audio engineers would have opted out of using all of the microphones available for mapping the space and balancing the tweeter outputs.
I'm going with Matt on this as fact, not his speculation,
Oh I'm not claiming those microphones were never used in mapping the room initially in setup. I'm disagreeing with you about them being used for dynamic sound adjustments from those tweeters. Pretty sure you can go with me on that one.
Hines himself plainly and clearly says he's supposing and not stating fact, and in his defense Apple hadn't yet put up their product page that would have made things clearer for him: "IF HomePod is running a realtime DSP that can alter the sound emitted from each of the device's seven tweeter speakers..." He' seems a bit more certain about the bass and real-time adjustments, and with that I agree.
Oh, I agree that they aren't running realtime. Thanks for the clarification. Could they in the future? Maybe, but I'm not seeing a huge benefit.
My wish is that you could set up a speaker, let it map the room and then bias the sweet spot to (kind of) where you want it determined by your smartphone location.
Another would be to broaden or narrow the sweet spot by adjusting a few parameters.
2) It would also be disingenuous to say that it supports FLAC, even over AirPlay, if it's only able to take a FLAC (or ALAC) encoded file from the source device and then transcode it on the fly to a lossy format for AirPlay which would remove any of the benefit of using a lossless codec.
Comments
I know it's all a bit confusing with the marketing mish-mash and competing claims of the HomePod does this or that from review to review but the sound adjustment based on the listening space ("the room") occurs only when first set up or when moved enough to trigger the accelerometer. Shifting all the furniture around in the room after setting up your HomePod won't cause it to change any "tweeter beam-forming" that might be taking place if the HomePod itself isn't moved too. That's how I read it anyway.
...and apologies for chiming in once more, even if to correct a misunderstanding.
http://appleinsider.com/articles/18/01/27/a-deep-dive-into-homepods-adaptive-audio-beamforming-and-why-it-needs-an-a8-processor
My reading is that the 6 microphones do provide input for the beam forming tweeters, but I don't know if that is fact or expert speculation by Matt Hines:
"In the case of Apple, it's using array of six microphones and a digital signal processor (DSP) to understand the environment based on its acoustics, and adapt the device's output to better suit its physical location and the room's audio profile. Considering the multiple speakers and the microphone array, it is possible for such a system to customize the output of each speaker to allow for a similar sound to be heard through as much of the environment's space as possible".
There's a lot of speculative stuff from the invited expert, Matt Hines, in this article. That makes it hard to determine what features are or are not enabled by Apple.
The article notes that these are also use for "Hey Siri".
Please note placement of the HomePod in the image, I think sourced from Apple. That configuration likely gives ideal beam forming for the tweeters providing ambience.
Apple is very careful with the way they word things as they should be.
Right now, it’s seems like professional malfeasance to do it the way they did it.
I'm going with Matt on this as fact, not his speculation,
Hines himself plainly and clearly says he's supposing and not stating fact, and in his defense Apple hadn't yet put up their product page that would have made things clearer for him:
"IF HomePod is running a realtime DSP that can alter the sound emitted from each of the device's seven tweeter speakers..."
He' seems a bit more certain about the bass and real-time adjustments, and with that I agree.
My wish is that you could set up a speaker, let it map the room and then bias the sweet spot to (kind of) where you want it determined by your smartphone location.
Another would be to broaden or narrow the sweet spot by adjusting a few parameters.