<strong>.....Macs are pretty expensive. The price to performance ratio is quite off compared to pcs. Mac OS X is really the only reason I still use a mac, and I'm not alone in that....</strong><hr></blockquote>
OK, but I'm wondering, is performance a true reason for why PC users don't buy Macs, or an excuse they use whenever someone asks the question?
Back when the G3s and G4s were first introduced 5 years ago, they dusted the Pentiums on the market in both mhz rating and actual performance, but you still didn't see hoards of PC switchers.
I think it has to do with just buying/usage-inertia and mindshare, more than hardware performance. Of course, the perception (and reality) that current Macs are slower than PCs doesn't help, but I doubt this would change that dramatically even if the performance gap were suddenly reversed.
(Note that I'm not addressing this to any of the rendering geeks that actually need the speed here. )
Most people go into stores and buy their computers or at least to see what's out there. When they walk into a compusa and look at the display, they see broken keyboards, way old computers that were pricey when they were first introduced being sold at the same price now and pushy sales people who shuttle them off to a PC. And this is often their only experience working with a modern mac. It's not good.
Apple needs to be more selective in their reseller selection process. A place like a bad compusa does too much damage to their image. I swear, sometimes I think Apple should sue compusa for defamation or something. I HATE that store.
Murbot, I may be enlightened, but I'm not happy about it! <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
Actually, to a large degree I agree with what you say about ease of use, integration/ergonomics, and software, not completely, but largely.
However, I simply responded to why people don't buy macs. It is a myth that they are unaware of these factors. Not all people are aware, but a good deal of them are aware, enough to double and re-double Apple's sales figures. It's why Apple commands more press coverage than its market share warrants, people are both aware and informed about Apple, but they do not buy. The simple reason for that is price. We all know Ferrari's exist, but few of us buy them, why? Price. Same difference; and yet more perilous, for Apple isn't selling cars and the comparison is stupid beyond the ability to point out how price limits your market more so than any other single factor.
Expansion and performance come next because they impact both percieved and actual value. A machine should not have to extend into the price range of a powermac to deliver lag free performance and the absolutely basic abilities to easily upgrade internal drive, CPU, and video components.
At the end of the day, plenty of Windows software is good enough in the eyes of consumers, while the prices, expansion and responsiveness are excellent. That is why they do not buy macs. Not because they are ignorant! That is the myth: that people only choose PC's out of ignorance.
I fully grant, that even a large majority of PC users choose macs out of ignorance, but as I have said, and as Apple's media presence suggests, a good many people -- enough to double and re-double Apple's sales -- know enough about the mac to nonetheless shake their head at the price and buy the PC instead. "Switch," if it is aimed at the ignorant, simply won't work. The ignorant will follow their uncle Jim to a Big box reseller or a white box builder regardless of what you teach them. It's the Apple followers, the gun shy, the secret admirers, the sticker shocked... it's those people that you need to win over. For every mac user, there are at least 5-6 people who would be given but one condition -- competitive specification at the given price.
PS, Murbot, you answered some of your own questions. The iBook has been doing great for Apple lately. Look at the factors. LOW PRICE (at least for Apple) and the same general expansion/upgradeability as the competition. You don't really lose for choosing mac relative to the Wintel competition. Similarly priced wintel notebooks are also slow, none of the are expandable, they're not as well made but have bigger screens, and they might have M$ word, but the don't have MacOSX or iApps. It's slow and crippled, but it competes, and thus it sells. All other factors being equal, people will pay a SMALL premium for OSX and iApps, but ONLY with speed and exansion factors being more oor less equal.
Ease of use is getting closer all the time, especially if you're conditioned to think in "Windows"
3) we're using windows at work/college so I need something compatible
4) Christ, How much ?!!
5) IN THE UK - what is an applemac? (most people here have never heard of one)
6) Microsoft have a long reach
7) Its far harder to buy them anyway - There is only one place within 50 miles where you can walk in and buy one (and even then with an appaling range). In the same area you can't move for PC vendors
I sell both Macs and PC's, one reason and one reason alone.
PRICE,
When the iMac first came out we had no trouble selling it to PC users, why?
Because the 233mhz iMac was highly competitive to PC's at the same price point (remember, this was shortly before AMD and Intel and Compaq and Dell started to beat each other to death)
However today the most expensive macs are beaten to a pulp by very inexpensive PC's.
The eMac and iMac are utter and complete jokes compared to what you can get in the PC world for the same money.
they look at the price tag, smirk and then walk out the door with a new Compaq or HP
The iBook is the only product Apple currently sells that is even slightly competitive against it's PC rivals.
Average joe does not know about megahertz, you give him too much credit. Nor does he look at software.
They look only at price, image, and popularity.
Macs cost more then PCs. I don't call this being to expensive, I call this "paying more for a higher quality product". Sure you can get a PC for $599, but that's like getting a Kia. Why not spend $1,500 and get a Volvo or Mercedes?
Macs and Mac users have an image, one that many folks are afraid of. Part cult, part marketing bastard child, and part 'fag-artist' (no offense, this is from a magazine). Folks don't want to break ranks with the PC.
Lastly is popularity. Just like beanie babies. They started up all the fake hype stories about how valuable they were and collectible and soon it was a self fulfilling prophecy. In other words, until folks start thinking 'Macs are in' and 'Everyone needs a Mac' the fact will remain that 'Macs are out, and I don't need one'.
These three issues are the core of the non-mac buying market.
Macs cost more then PCs. I don't call this being to expensive, I call this "paying more for a higher quality product". Sure you can get a PC for $599, but that's like getting a Kia. Why not spend $1,500 and get a Volvo or Mercedes?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, I think there is a very good reason most of us here don't drive a Mercedes, and you pointed it out rather nicely ;-)
Seriously though, it depends on who you buy a PC from that determines the quality of it. I can get a windows box that has a much better price to performance ratio than the closest mac Apple can provide me with. I can get it cheaper, and it can be just as reliable as my mac.
There was a point at which paying the higher price for a mac was justified. Back when Power Computing was shipping a 225MHz 604e and the windows world was like, "omg wtf!"
The average Joe may not necessarily care about MHz and what not... however...
Go into a CompUSA. Tell the salestard you're interested in buying a computer, but don't know what to get. They're going to start quoting MHz speeds to you and a bunch of other marketing babble. Suddenly, you start to care about that stuff, and you wonder why you should spend twice as much on a Mac that is twice as slow as this Windows box this sales guy is showing you. Then he tells you about all the software that gets bundled with the Windows box and not with the Mac. Wow, I mean, you're trying to tell me that Joe Consumer doesn't care about the MHz and software now?
If you're saying we give Joe Consumer too much credit by saying he definitely doesn't care about MHz or Software... then why do you think Joe Consumer would care about that mac image that you say is part cult, part marketing bastard child, and part 'fag-artist'?
I'm willing to bet a lot of consumer don't even really know the differences between the two machines, and that they would actually be quite open to buying a mac. And coming full circle to the point we agree one, when Joe Consumer gets to the store and sees that he can get more for less with a Windows box.. then yeah, he buys the Windows machine usually. But he doesn't buy it because of some mac cult image that he hates, he does so because the numbers in front of him are saying, again, that he gets a faster machine with more bundled software for less money.
Mulattabianca picked up on the 4 reasons I've always heard. The toy excuse, the software excuse, the price excuse, and the herd excuse. I've never heard a PC user talk about the Mac's speed as an issue; only Mac users do that in my experience.
I can't figure out why Apple has to show the the "switchers" all throughout each television spot. For the most part, they are pretty annoying to watch. Why not just show each one for a couple of seconds, then continue with their voice while showing static and moving screen shots of what the "switchers" are talking about. Isn't it the Apple OS and applications that really sell?
For instance, if the switcher is talking about how sweet and easy to use iMovie is, show me what iMovie looks like. Don't just tell me, "I just click on 'Import' and Wiz! Bang!, the movie is in my computer!" Show me what it looks like. Show me how elegant and easy to use it is....
My $0.02. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
I don't personally see the bundled apps in PCs outweighing the bundled apps in Macs by a long shot, but whatever...this is all opinion, and everyone is entitled to one and nobody is completely right...So now that I am on a level playing field, this is what I have seen.
-Joe/Jane consumer wants what their friends have(more than likely a PC, for support and help.)
-they want benchmarks(yes the PC does win in benchmarks)
-The average user does not care about the whole Mac vs. PC thing until it is brought up to them, in which case they are going to defend their purchase, because nobody wants to be wrong.(not saying they are)
-They walk through the store at software and see options for the PC(and a few select software fort the Mac, if any. As a first time buyer, they don't know good software from bad, so they like the options.)
the reasons I choose a Mac are that I love the stability, the options of unix, Mac OS, and XP, and the fact that I can see past the MHZ, which is not what I need. I need little downtime, no viruses, multitasking, and FCP. I have been out of the PC loop now for about 5 years, so things may have changed a little, but for me the Mac is still my choice, and I do look to the PC to see if I am still justified in that, And I still believe I am.
"The mac is for graphic artists only" is another one I hear all the time.
But ultimately it does boil down to price. I also rarely hear about the speed issue, but always hear about the high price.
Apple needs to find a way to come within 20 or so percent of the PC's and perhaps some may consider purchasing a Mac. But not when Macs are double the amount of a speedier PC.
If there's any consolation, I do think Macs are more respected today than they were say 5 years ago.
Comments
<strong>.....Macs are pretty expensive. The price to performance ratio is quite off compared to pcs. Mac OS X is really the only reason I still use a mac, and I'm not alone in that....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Jack......I am with you on this
Back when the G3s and G4s were first introduced 5 years ago, they dusted the Pentiums on the market in both mhz rating and actual performance, but you still didn't see hoards of PC switchers.
I think it has to do with just buying/usage-inertia and mindshare, more than hardware performance. Of course, the perception (and reality) that current Macs are slower than PCs doesn't help, but I doubt this would change that dramatically even if the performance gap were suddenly reversed.
(Note that I'm not addressing this to any of the rendering geeks that actually need the speed here.
Apple needs to be more selective in their reseller selection process. A place like a bad compusa does too much damage to their image. I swear, sometimes I think Apple should sue compusa for defamation or something.
Actually, to a large degree I agree with what you say about ease of use, integration/ergonomics, and software, not completely, but largely.
However, I simply responded to why people don't buy macs. It is a myth that they are unaware of these factors. Not all people are aware, but a good deal of them are aware, enough to double and re-double Apple's sales figures. It's why Apple commands more press coverage than its market share warrants, people are both aware and informed about Apple, but they do not buy. The simple reason for that is price. We all know Ferrari's exist, but few of us buy them, why? Price. Same difference; and yet more perilous, for Apple isn't selling cars and the comparison is stupid beyond the ability to point out how price limits your market more so than any other single factor.
Expansion and performance come next because they impact both percieved and actual value. A machine should not have to extend into the price range of a powermac to deliver lag free performance and the absolutely basic abilities to easily upgrade internal drive, CPU, and video components.
At the end of the day, plenty of Windows software is good enough in the eyes of consumers, while the prices, expansion and responsiveness are excellent. That is why they do not buy macs. Not because they are ignorant! That is the myth: that people only choose PC's out of ignorance.
I fully grant, that even a large majority of PC users choose macs out of ignorance, but as I have said, and as Apple's media presence suggests, a good many people -- enough to double and re-double Apple's sales -- know enough about the mac to nonetheless shake their head at the price and buy the PC instead. "Switch," if it is aimed at the ignorant, simply won't work. The ignorant will follow their uncle Jim to a Big box reseller or a white box builder regardless of what you teach them. It's the Apple followers, the gun shy, the secret admirers, the sticker shocked... it's those people that you need to win over. For every mac user, there are at least 5-6 people who would be given but one condition -- competitive specification at the given price.
[ 12-13-2002: Message edited by: Matsu ]</p>
Ease of use is getting closer all the time, especially if you're conditioned to think in "Windows"
--Compatibility, Its alot easyer for file transfers if you have the same sorta computer.
--Gaming. . .
2) you can't get the software
3) we're using windows at work/college so I need something compatible
4) Christ, How much ?!!
5) IN THE UK - what is an applemac? (most people here have never heard of one)
6) Microsoft have a long reach
7) Its far harder to buy them anyway - There is only one place within 50 miles where you can walk in and buy one (and even then with an appaling range). In the same area you can't move for PC vendors
8) people generally are not terribly bright.
PRICE,
When the iMac first came out we had no trouble selling it to PC users, why?
Because the 233mhz iMac was highly competitive to PC's at the same price point (remember, this was shortly before AMD and Intel and Compaq and Dell started to beat each other to death)
However today the most expensive macs are beaten to a pulp by very inexpensive PC's.
The eMac and iMac are utter and complete jokes compared to what you can get in the PC world for the same money.
they look at the price tag, smirk and then walk out the door with a new Compaq or HP
The iBook is the only product Apple currently sells that is even slightly competitive against it's PC rivals.
Average joe does not know about megahertz, you give him too much credit. Nor does he look at software.
They look only at price, image, and popularity.
Macs cost more then PCs. I don't call this being to expensive, I call this "paying more for a higher quality product". Sure you can get a PC for $599, but that's like getting a Kia. Why not spend $1,500 and get a Volvo or Mercedes?
Macs and Mac users have an image, one that many folks are afraid of. Part cult, part marketing bastard child, and part 'fag-artist' (no offense, this is from a magazine). Folks don't want to break ranks with the PC.
Lastly is popularity. Just like beanie babies. They started up all the fake hype stories about how valuable they were and collectible and soon it was a self fulfilling prophecy. In other words, until folks start thinking 'Macs are in' and 'Everyone needs a Mac' the fact will remain that 'Macs are out, and I don't need one'.
These three issues are the core of the non-mac buying market.
<strong>
Macs cost more then PCs. I don't call this being to expensive, I call this "paying more for a higher quality product". Sure you can get a PC for $599, but that's like getting a Kia. Why not spend $1,500 and get a Volvo or Mercedes?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, I think there is a very good reason most of us here don't drive a Mercedes, and you pointed it out rather nicely ;-)
Seriously though, it depends on who you buy a PC from that determines the quality of it. I can get a windows box that has a much better price to performance ratio than the closest mac Apple can provide me with. I can get it cheaper, and it can be just as reliable as my mac.
There was a point at which paying the higher price for a mac was justified. Back when Power Computing was shipping a 225MHz 604e and the windows world was like, "omg wtf!"
The average Joe may not necessarily care about MHz and what not... however...
Go into a CompUSA. Tell the salestard you're interested in buying a computer, but don't know what to get. They're going to start quoting MHz speeds to you and a bunch of other marketing babble. Suddenly, you start to care about that stuff, and you wonder why you should spend twice as much on a Mac that is twice as slow as this Windows box this sales guy is showing you. Then he tells you about all the software that gets bundled with the Windows box and not with the Mac. Wow, I mean, you're trying to tell me that Joe Consumer doesn't care about the MHz and software now?
If you're saying we give Joe Consumer too much credit by saying he definitely doesn't care about MHz or Software... then why do you think Joe Consumer would care about that mac image that you say is part cult, part marketing bastard child, and part 'fag-artist'?
I'm willing to bet a lot of consumer don't even really know the differences between the two machines, and that they would actually be quite open to buying a mac. And coming full circle to the point we agree one, when Joe Consumer gets to the store and sees that he can get more for less with a Windows box.. then yeah, he buys the Windows machine usually. But he doesn't buy it because of some mac cult image that he hates, he does so because the numbers in front of him are saying, again, that he gets a faster machine with more bundled software for less money.
For instance, if the switcher is talking about how sweet and easy to use iMovie is, show me what iMovie looks like. Don't just tell me, "I just click on 'Import' and Wiz! Bang!, the movie is in my computer!" Show me what it looks like. Show me how elegant and easy to use it is....
My $0.02. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
-Joe/Jane consumer wants what their friends have(more than likely a PC, for support and help.)
-they want benchmarks(yes the PC does win in benchmarks)
-The average user does not care about the whole Mac vs. PC thing until it is brought up to them, in which case they are going to defend their purchase, because nobody wants to be wrong.(not saying they are)
-They walk through the store at software and see options for the PC(and a few select software fort the Mac, if any. As a first time buyer, they don't know good software from bad, so they like the options.)
the reasons I choose a Mac are that I love the stability, the options of unix, Mac OS, and XP, and the fact that I can see past the MHZ, which is not what I need. I need little downtime, no viruses, multitasking, and FCP. I have been out of the PC loop now for about 5 years, so things may have changed a little, but for me the Mac is still my choice, and I do look to the PC to see if I am still justified in that, And I still believe I am.
[ 12-13-2002: Message edited by: ijerry ]</p>
<strong>PRICE PRICE PRICE!!!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Dun call me a Matsu's fan, but he's right.
I brought my dad to an Apple store last saurday. He almost fainted when he saw the price of the g4 desktops!
Lets say you want to buy the ATI 9700Pro Video card for the PC, you've got no problem.
But if you want to buy it for the Mac good luck, even the 9000 isn't available other than as OEM hardware.
I love the Mac but I'm getting annoyed that the so called "best hardware" is not available for the best OS.
But ultimately it does boil down to price. I also rarely hear about the speed issue, but always hear about the high price.
Apple needs to find a way to come within 20 or so percent of the PC's and perhaps some may consider purchasing a Mac. But not when Macs are double the amount of a speedier PC.
If there's any consolation, I do think Macs are more respected today than they were say 5 years ago.