<strong>Yep, get a Dell if you need a sub-$600 computer. Assuming you don't need a monitor, you can configure one of their 2350 series comps with 1.8 GHz, 256 ram, 30 GB HD, DVD and CD-RW, Integrated graphics/audio, 1 year warranty for $598 before taxes.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't think Apple's had a worse price-performance ratio in comparison to PCs than at this time. And Matsu is right -- we continue to reward Apple by purchasing years old technology at inflated prices. The only things keeping Apple alive are its portable lines, and if the situation doesn't improve soon, I fear for the future of our beloved platform.
<strong>Lets say you're put in a situation where you have to buy a PC. You can install any OS you want on it but it must be a PC and it must be in the sub-$600 range. What kind do you buy?</strong><hr></blockquote>
It is the model most popular with our Macintosh customers who make the switch to Windows.
Very high quality, it has a lower failure rate than any Mac we sell, the only issue is some of them have CPU fans that are really loud, but that is easily fixed.
We have sold almost 100 of these, and so far absolutly zero complaints from anyone.
Edit: I forgot to mention, it has a 3 year onsite warranty and 24/7 telephone support,
[edit by Amorph: Made the link shorter to restore board formatting.]
[ 12-16-2002: Message edited by: Stagflation Steve ]
<strong>2 years ago we could have counted on flamage (even deserved flamage) but as these responses indicate, even the fiercest devotees are waning in their resolve.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Did you ever consider that some of us just wanted to answer his question and try to be helpful without any sarcasm or hint of nastiness?
Oh, I'm sorry, that concept is probably lost on you.
-- we continue to reward Apple by purchasing years old technology at inflated prices.
[ 12-16-2002: Message edited by: Big Mac ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, technically, we're not necessarily buying years old technology all of the time. In the department of faster RAM and what not, yeah, I guess we are getting shafted. But unfortunately, a 1.25GHz G4 is cutting edge on this side of fence.
In regards to what Amorph said about incompatibilities with various components... all I know is two of my friends recently built their own systems and spent countless hours on a sound card in particular because it just wouldn't co-operate. He then bought a Dell, put the sound card in it, and it worked fine.
Funny no one asked what you plan to use it for before coming up with recommendations!? Let us know what you plan to use it for.
My two cents:
* If you get Dell, plan to get a firewire PCI card too. None of the Dell PCs use a a motherboard that has bulit in FW.
* Echoing others, I too think Dell offers the best value in terms of its overall package (price, support, etc.).
* For CPU, unless you need the L3 cache, I would recommend the Celereon 2.0 ghz (not the 1.x ones) which uses the new fabrication process. Cheaper than P4 while offering similar performance and easily overclocks to 2.6 ghz.
Wow. Matsu, you really have pushed past "informative and challenging to the platform" and into "whiny, loud and repetitive". I, for one, really wish you would wait until you had something new to say before speaking...or at least limit your repititions to, say, once a week. Use the energy freed up to write directly to Apple, as they can actually do something about these issues. We, on the other hand, just hear you say the same things over and over and over...
I think someone mentioned <a href="http://www.gotapex.com"; target="_blank">www.gotapex.com</a> earlier in the thread, but I wanted to reiterate that suggestion. It's a great site, especially for sniffing out absolutely insane Dell deals. I've been tempted to pick up a cheap pc because they are SO FREAKIN' CHEAP. Pocket change really. $329 for a whole computer? It's almost worth not having to use VPC for that price. Come on, Apple, I've got an itchy "Buy now" finger!!
Funny, I also hear the same things over and over again too. Why write to Apple? They read this site, as certain legal wranglings have shown, and can read everything I have to say right here. Apple does not deserve the gift of my words (or my wallet) you should count yourselves lucky.
I wonder if it's possible to bitch and moan Apple into oblivion from our own remote nodes of the internet? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
But seriously, it isn't that often when you think about it. Try not to think of it as repetition, think more, "variations on a theme." What I say about price performance I say because it is the one thing holding Apple back. Every other issue -- edu, business, the proliferation of microshaft semi-standards, file compatibility, timely driver updates, interconnectivity battles, even outright hardware performance -- would resolve itself with surprising quickness if Apple could put more machines into people's hands, and that will not happen unless the price is right. It is not some minor issue that we have exhausted, it is the major issue issue facing anybody who wishes to remain in the personal computer industry for the next 10 years or more: cost! You cannot talk about this issue enough, or let it pass without mention because all current trends (positive and negative) go straight back to the drive for lower prices. It is inevitable that prices for technology will fall as reasons to upgrade disappear and basic computing power exceeds 99% of consumer wants, commodity computing is upon us, companies will either adapt or disappear.
Does it make sense to buy product that is over-priced and underperforming? Why reward ineptitude? How does that encourage improvement in the brand. Apple does what is does because it knows that a small group (the current group) of users would buy a rebranded vic-20 if Steve put it in pretty plastic and said it was better. Or, maybe not so much? 2 years ago we could have counted on flamage (even deserved flamage) but as these responses indicate, even the fiercest devotees are waning in their resolve. <hr></blockquote>
Matsu, I've been around here several years longer than my post count might indicate, and I gotta say, I actually enjoyed your devil's advocate POV in the past, but lately you've become a complete Mad T(r)ool.
[QB]Someone mentioned board and card compatibility problems as a reason to get a prebuilt PC instead of building your own, but that doesn't wash: Dell and whoever else use the same boards that you can buy yourself, especially at the low end, so compatibility is still an issue. At least with the custom-built PCs you have a shot at figuring out what will work with what before you spend a dime, instead of buying whatever Dell decides to put in the case and finding out after the fact.<hr></blockquote>
Not quite. Most OEMs like Dell use Intel's own chipsets while many of the cheaper boards might use VIA, SiS, ALi or others. Some OEMs have taken to nVidia and ATi too, I guess.
In fact, Dell uses really nice chipsets for its workstations and servers...mostly ServerWorks stuff for the low-end servers, I know for sure.
Did you give up on building the G4? Whatever happened with that?</strong><hr></blockquote>
As of right now I'm not gonna do it. I got convinced that it's not worth it when I can build the system I listed for the same price as a custom 800 MHz G4. Granted the idea of a DIY G4 sounds tight, this system should make my parents happy too (they are pretty much anti-Mac now & want a Dell). I've heard about some PPC mobos though coming that might make it easier to build my own Mac. I will probably still build it in addition to the PC.
So this angle is played out then? Funny, it's truer now than ever before, but I too tire of the obvious. As for your captivation, dilligence is its own reward. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
very well then, mark this moment, you'll hear no more complaint from me... untill the next Apple screw up at least.
<strong>Lets say you're put in a situation where you have to buy a PC. You can install any OS you want on it but it must be a PC and it must be in the sub-$600 range. What kind do you buy?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I just bought the Dell 2300 for $389. 1.8 Ghz Celeron, 128 MB RAM, 30 GB HD, Intel Extreme Graphics, Keyboard, mouse, HK Speakers, Modem, and software bundle.
I couldn't pass up the price.
A guy at work said he just bought a Compaq on their website for $349. But, no modem at that price.
I like mine. Just put in the ATI All in wonder VE. It's a radeon 7500 64MB with TV tuner and pause live tv and Digital VCR (aka PVR) functionality. $99 from CompUSA, after rebate. Add to that my $85 19" CRT from Staples and for Under $600 I've got a nice TV multi media Windows XP PC.
Comments
<a href="http://www.tigerdirect.com"; target="_blank">www.tigerdirect.com</a>
I bought this system for 329.00!
<a href="http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?sku=H27-1170 P" target="_blank">http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?sku=H27-1170 P</a>
<strong>Well, right now I'm probably gonna be building a PC in the 800-900 range.
What I'm lookin at right now is to get:
Athlon XP 2600+ 333FSB
100 GB 7200 RPM hard drive
Radeon 9500 Pro 128MB
512 MB PC3200 DDR RAM
nForce 2 MCP-T mobo (this is the hard choice...which mobo to get?)
52x24x52x Lite On CDRW
16x DVDROM
Sky Hawk black all aluminum case w/Q window & red light
Plus or minus a few things Im looking at around 900 for that system.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Did you give up on building the G4? Whatever happened with that?
<strong>Yep, get a Dell if you need a sub-$600 computer. Assuming you don't need a monitor, you can configure one of their 2350 series comps with 1.8 GHz, 256 ram, 30 GB HD, DVD and CD-RW, Integrated graphics/audio, 1 year warranty for $598 before taxes.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't think Apple's had a worse price-performance ratio in comparison to PCs than at this time. And Matsu is right -- we continue to reward Apple by purchasing years old technology at inflated prices. The only things keeping Apple alive are its portable lines, and if the situation doesn't improve soon, I fear for the future of our beloved platform.
[ 12-16-2002: Message edited by: Big Mac ]</p>
<strong>Lets say you're put in a situation where you have to buy a PC. You can install any OS you want on it but it must be a PC and it must be in the sub-$600 range. What kind do you buy?</strong><hr></blockquote>
We highly recommend the <a href="http://h20022.www2.hp.com/busprod/specifications/0,12513,series=96291^type=89301^category=30000 5,00.html?lsidebarLayId=79&rsidebarLayId=64" target="_blank">Compaq D315</a>.
It is the model most popular with our Macintosh customers who make the switch to Windows.
Very high quality, it has a lower failure rate than any Mac we sell, the only issue is some of them have CPU fans that are really loud, but that is easily fixed.
We have sold almost 100 of these, and so far absolutly zero complaints from anyone.
Edit: I forgot to mention, it has a 3 year onsite warranty and 24/7 telephone support,
[edit by Amorph: Made the link shorter to restore board formatting.]
[ 12-16-2002: Message edited by: Stagflation Steve ]
[ 12-16-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
<strong>
nForce 2 MCP-T mobo (this is the hard choice...which mobo to get?)
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You should get <a href="http://usa.asus.com/mb/socketa/a7n8x/overview.htm"; target="_blank">DA BOMB</a>
I love ASUS :cool:
[ 12-16-2002: Message edited by: Willoughby ]</p>
<strong>2 years ago we could have counted on flamage (even deserved flamage) but as these responses indicate, even the fiercest devotees are waning in their resolve.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Did you ever consider that some of us just wanted to answer his question and try to be helpful without any sarcasm or hint of nastiness?
Oh, I'm sorry, that concept is probably lost on you.
but best pricewatch
<strong>
-- we continue to reward Apple by purchasing years old technology at inflated prices.
[ 12-16-2002: Message edited by: Big Mac ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, technically, we're not necessarily buying years old technology all of the time. In the department of faster RAM and what not, yeah, I guess we are getting shafted. But unfortunately, a 1.25GHz G4 is cutting edge on this side of fence.
In regards to what Amorph said about incompatibilities with various components... all I know is two of my friends recently built their own systems and spent countless hours on a sound card in particular because it just wouldn't co-operate. He then bought a Dell, put the sound card in it, and it worked fine.
My two cents:
* If you get Dell, plan to get a firewire PCI card too. None of the Dell PCs use a a motherboard that has bulit in FW.
* Echoing others, I too think Dell offers the best value in terms of its overall package (price, support, etc.).
* For CPU, unless you need the L3 cache, I would recommend the Celereon 2.0 ghz (not the 1.x ones) which uses the new fabrication process. Cheaper than P4 while offering similar performance and easily overclocks to 2.6 ghz.
I wonder if it's possible to bitch and moan Apple into oblivion from our own remote nodes of the internet? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
But seriously, it isn't that often when you think about it. Try not to think of it as repetition, think more, "variations on a theme."
As much as I hate saying this, I would buy a Dull (Dell).
It's difficult to beat their prices, even if you build it yourself, and their support is supposed to be excellent compared to other PC manufacturers.
If you decide to go that route. check out www. gotapex.com.
They post deals daily for Dell. <hr></blockquote>
I would buy a Dell, though I would hate it even more than I hate buying Microsoft Office.
Does it make sense to buy product that is over-priced and underperforming? Why reward ineptitude? How does that encourage improvement in the brand. Apple does what is does because it knows that a small group (the current group) of users would buy a rebranded vic-20 if Steve put it in pretty plastic and said it was better. Or, maybe not so much? 2 years ago we could have counted on flamage (even deserved flamage) but as these responses indicate, even the fiercest devotees are waning in their resolve. <hr></blockquote>
Matsu, I've been around here several years longer than my post count might indicate, and I gotta say, I actually enjoyed your devil's advocate POV in the past, but lately you've become a complete Mad T(r)ool.
<img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
[QB]Someone mentioned board and card compatibility problems as a reason to get a prebuilt PC instead of building your own, but that doesn't wash: Dell and whoever else use the same boards that you can buy yourself, especially at the low end, so compatibility is still an issue. At least with the custom-built PCs you have a shot at figuring out what will work with what before you spend a dime, instead of buying whatever Dell decides to put in the case and finding out after the fact.<hr></blockquote>
Not quite. Most OEMs like Dell use Intel's own chipsets while many of the cheaper boards might use VIA, SiS, ALi or others. Some OEMs have taken to nVidia and ATi too, I guess.
In fact, Dell uses really nice chipsets for its workstations and servers...mostly ServerWorks stuff for the low-end servers, I know for sure.
People often complain about VIA in particular.
[ 12-17-2002: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
<strong>Funny no one asked what you plan to use it for before coming up with recommendations!? Let us know what you plan to use it for.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
He said he intended to use it for audio work.
That would work, except that they really aren't holding up--you're just repeating yourself.
"Apple does not deserve the gift of my words (or my wallet) you should count yourselves lucky."
I guess we're lucky--I feel more like the captive of someone working out some kind of obsessive issue I don't fully understand.
<strong>
Did you give up on building the G4? Whatever happened with that?</strong><hr></blockquote>
As of right now I'm not gonna do it. I got convinced that it's not worth it when I can build the system I listed for the same price as a custom 800 MHz G4. Granted the idea of a DIY G4 sounds tight, this system should make my parents happy too (they are pretty much anti-Mac now & want a Dell). I've heard about some PPC mobos though coming that might make it easier to build my own Mac. I will probably still build it in addition to the PC.
So this angle is played out then? Funny, it's truer now than ever before, but I too tire of the obvious. As for your captivation, dilligence is its own reward.
very well then, mark this moment, you'll hear no more complaint from me... untill the next Apple screw up at least.
<strong>Lets say you're put in a situation where you have to buy a PC. You can install any OS you want on it but it must be a PC and it must be in the sub-$600 range. What kind do you buy?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I just bought the Dell 2300 for $389. 1.8 Ghz Celeron, 128 MB RAM, 30 GB HD, Intel Extreme Graphics, Keyboard, mouse, HK Speakers, Modem, and software bundle.
I couldn't pass up the price.
A guy at work said he just bought a Compaq on their website for $349. But, no modem at that price.
I like mine. Just put in the ATI All in wonder VE. It's a radeon 7500 64MB with TV tuner and pause live tv and Digital VCR (aka PVR) functionality. $99 from CompUSA, after rebate. Add to that my $85 19" CRT from Staples and for Under $600 I've got a nice TV multi media Windows XP PC.