Apple planning to ditch Intel chips in Macs for its own custom silicon in 2020

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  • Reply 81 of 176
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 6,044member
    First detailed in December, Marzipan will blur the lines between the company's mobile and desktop product lines by allowing customers to run iOS apps on macOS.
    Sorry, but again, you have the Marzipan rumor wrong. AI really ran with the "iOS apps running on macOS" interpretation, but that was never spelled out and is very unlikely. Universal app development does not mean "iOS running on macOS". It will be little different than a universal app for iOS vs tvOS -- nobody claims you're running an iOS app on your Apple TV. They have shared libraries and frameworks but the app has a different target and is different. You will not be running a little iOS app window on your 27" iMac.

    The intent is much more likely to encourage quality apps for macOS by reducing the barrier to entry if you're already building an iOS target.

    DaringFireball's John Gruber corrected this rumor and it should be noted:

    Gurman probably didn’t write the headline, but it doesn’t even make sense. iOS has no concept of a mouse cursor and runs only on touchscreen devices. MacOS has no support for touchscreen devices and requires a mouse pointer. “One user experience” is neither possible nor desirable. The truth is that this effort by Apple is almost certainly not about cross-platform applications but instead cross-platform frameworks for developers. It’s developer news, not user news.

    https://daringfireball.net/2017/12/marzipan
    edited April 2 SolicanukstormmattinozfastasleepbkkcanuckSpamSandwichracerhomie3cgWerksroundaboutnowRayz2016
  • Reply 82 of 176
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,641member
    I really doubt we will see emulation as the primary solution to X64 apps.    Instead I think what Apple has planed is a system where by apps are purchased and then the code segments needed for a specific machine are down loaded.   They have been building up infrastructure to do this for a couple of years.    Emulation would only be needed for really old apps that are not maintained anymore.

    Frankly I can't hardly wait.    For me this means two things, far faster Iphones and Ipads due to even more engineering being put into Apples chips and second saying good by to legacy hardware.

    The issue with legacy support is really hurting Intel.   Not only has Apple gone with a clean ARM design they have close to completely left the 32 bit world behind.   With the modern software solutions and high performance at very low power Apple will be hard to beat.
    canukstormwatto_cobra
  • Reply 83 of 176
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 6,044member
    I guess it's nice that Apple will make it's own CPUs, but before they do that CAN APPLE RELEASE SOME NEW COMPUTERS ALREADY? PLEASE!!!

    SEND LITTLE TIMMIE COOKIE TO AN IMMEDIATE RETIREMENT.

    BRING BACK THE GUY AND LET THE GOOD TIMES ROLL AGAIN.
    You mean like the entirely brand new iMac Pro released just this past winter?
    edited April 2 Solimacxpressfastasleepracerhomie3watto_cobra
  • Reply 84 of 176
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 1,396member

    StrangeDays said:

    DaringFireball's John Gruber corrected this rumor and it should be noted:

    Gurman probably didn’t write the headline, but it doesn’t even make sense. iOS has no concept of a mouse cursor and runs only on touchscreen devices. MacOS has no support for touchscreen devices and requires a mouse pointer. “One user experience” is neither possible nor desirable. The truth is that this effort by Apple is almost certainly not about cross-platform applications but instead cross-platform frameworks for developers. It’s developer news, not user news.

    https://daringfireball.net/2017/12/marzipan
    1.  I certainly Hope this plays out like this.  I would expect then that Apple would some IOS that they have already worked on with the Marzipan technology; maybe the HOME app , maybe the CLASSROOM app that they announced for macOS as a beta at WWDC.   Look for Marzipan to come out as beta for the next version of macOS.

     2.   Hopefully that means that next year (2019) at the latest they will add cursor (mouse or trackpad) support to the iPadPro.

    3.  Then Apple would be able to replace the macBook with the iBook based on iOS.
    karmadave said:
    Every few months a story like this pops up on AI and have the same response. Apple will NOT abandon x86 architecture for the Macintosh. It would kill their Enterprise Mac business. They will continue to develop their own specialized processors, for Mac, in addition to utilizing an x86 compatible processor from Intel (or maybe AMD).
    I've heard this at least twice before when it's been wrong.

    4. I wonder when we will hear about Apple using their A series chips in their data centers. I would think this would one of the first application of a A series baed macOS because they would be cheaper than intel and pull level power to run.   Do Google and Amazon use Intel in their data centers or something else for the CPU?
    edited April 2
  • Reply 85 of 176
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 1,966member
    I guess it's nice that Apple will make it's own CPUs, but before they do that CAN APPLE RELEASE SOME NEW COMPUTERS ALREADY? PLEASE!!!

    SEND LITTLE TIMMIE COOKIE TO AN IMMEDIATE RETIREMENT.

    BRING BACK THE GUY AND LET THE GOOD TIMES ROLL AGAIN.
    You mean like the entirely brand new iMac Pro released just this past winter?
    Shh don't tell him Steve Jobs died.
    StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 86 of 176
    mjtomlinmjtomlin Posts: 1,791member
    Apple has been extremely ambitious this decade with their silicon team. I'd be willing to bet there's a project to develop their own ISA that will replace both ARM and x64. There's no reason they need to stick with any kind of industry "standard" anymore, they could create a custom ISA that meets their very specific needs. There is only one kernel and core OS that runs across all their devices. Creating a highly tuned CPU tailor made for that platform would enable a level of performance and efficiency that no other company could achieve.
    edited April 2 SpamSandwichwatto_cobra
  • Reply 87 of 176
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 928member
    First detailed in December, Marzipan will blur the lines between the company's mobile and desktop product lines by allowing customers to run iOS apps on macOS.
    Sorry, but again, you have the Marzipan rumor wrong. AI really ran with the "iOS apps running on macOS" interpretation, but that was never spelled out and is very unlikely. Universal app development does not mean "iOS running on macOS". It will be little different than a universal app for iOS vs tvOS -- nobody claims you're running an iOS app on your Apple TV. They have shared libraries and frameworks but the app has a different target and is different. You will not be running a little iOS app window on your 27" iMac.

    The intent is much more likely to encourage quality apps for macOS by reducing the barrier to entry if you're already building an iOS target.

    DaringFireball's John Gruber corrected this rumor and it should be noted:

    Gurman probably didn’t write the headline, but it doesn’t even make sense. iOS has no concept of a mouse cursor and runs only on touchscreen devices. MacOS has no support for touchscreen devices and requires a mouse pointer. “One user experience” is neither possible nor desirable. The truth is that this effort by Apple is almost certainly not about cross-platform applications but instead cross-platform frameworks for developers. It’s developer news, not user news.

    https://daringfireball.net/2017/12/marzipan
    Well I think he missed one interface but it's not exclusive to Apple. That is "web" that runs Mac pointer and keyboard and iOS touch almost equally these days. iCloud has long rumoured to have it's own interface kit in development. It could for-fill the goals attached to Marzipan in it create a system that many utility apps could build to and then deploy Mac, iOS or any Web browser for that matter. Leave true native to apps that really need it.
  • Reply 88 of 176
    jameskatt2jameskatt2 Posts: 698member
    Apple can 
    1) BUY AMD
    2) or INVEST HEAVILY IN AMD then PERPETUALLY AND IRREVOCABLY LICENSE ALL OF AMD's INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY

    Then Apple can build its own Intel compatible CPUs at much higher performance and customization of function.

    Why just do ARM CPU's? ARM is not proven at all to be able to handle the heavy multitasking involved with laptop and desktop processors. Intel CPUs are.

    With perpetual licenses to both the ARM and Intel architecture, Apple can simply blend, customize, and do what it sees fit to improve the customer experience. Apple can for example add AI chip processing to an Intel core along with a custom secure enclave. Apple can't wait long enough for Intel to drag its feet to do these things.  

    Intel has dropped the ball heavily. It's CPUs have not been much faster in the past decade. It is irritating for Macs to be held up in performance simply because Intel can't keep up with the technology. Intel's process is simply ages behind Samsung's process for example.

    As Steve Jobs said, skate to where the puck will be, not where the puck is. Intel simply can't do this. They have been mired in the Windows hedgemoney for decades. But now that Microsoft too acknowledges that Windows is not what it use to be, Intel is in deep trouble.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 89 of 176
    TomETomE Posts: 129member
    Apple did not buy the other companies just to throw away part of their cash.  

    While we can all conjecture what might happen and you have to admit it is interesting, you can be sure that most of this will come about.  If we hear the rumors, then the adage where there is smoke there is fire.  Apple is not Dumb.  Microsoft had / has a lot of baggage that is continuing to present them with challenges / difficulties.  

    I do believe that Apple will be successful. There still exists the thought process in some corporate management that it is safe to buy Microsoft / IBM, etc. -  No one ever got fired for buying the products from these companies.  It is the legacy of some companies that will drive many other companies into the ground - take the legacy costs of the automotive industry.  Examine the legacy costs of the Post Office. The PO will deliver a letter for the price of a stamp anywhere there is a post office box. Even if it is in a canyon.  The health care costs of these businesses will tank many of them.

    I don't care how Apple really makes iOS apps run on a Mac or Mac OS run on a table or phone, etc.  as long as Apple actually does it and it works well & we can have a "box" that runs everything - even other OS's.  Right once and run it on an Apple Product and that is a product I will buy even if it cost more.  Even Windows and especially iOS have applications I would like to run on my Mac Computer.  If you don't have the software available what good is the box ?

    Apple has always been a fighter and Just look at their talent, products, Cash Flow and $ in the bank.  No doubt all of this is somewhere running inside of their organization and we can conjecture all we want, but only Apple knows for sure.


    watto_cobra
  • Reply 90 of 176
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 1,966member

    As Steve Jobs said, skate to where the puck will be, not where the puck is.
    Wayne Gretzky. Steve Jobs didn't play hockey.
    radarthekatSpamSandwich
  • Reply 91 of 176
    lvidallvidal Posts: 158member
    Well, buy AMD/ATI then. What are they waiting for?
  • Reply 92 of 176
    hmmhmm Posts: 3,405member
    tht said:
    My Python 3.6 plotting script execution time:

    2015 rMBP15 w/Intel Core i7-4980HQ (2.8/4.0 GHz): 91.1 sec

    2017 iPad Pro 10.5 w/Apple A10X (2.3 GHz): 91.5 sec

    This is 45 W vs a 10 W envelope or so. Use Pythonista on iPad. Terminal on macOS. Don’t know if the Core i7-4980HQ actually turbo-ed to 4 GHz. Who knows. That’s why you do a lot of testing.
    Typically python is single threaded. With cython you can use the OpenMP backend for multithreading anywhere Python api calls can be optimized out. Now Apple's version of Clang doesn't support OpenMP, so you are running on one core. Turbo varies. If you're using AVX extensions, it typically runs at native clock speeds. 

    Of course it's possible to be bound by something other than cpu. You can be bound by memory/cache bandwidth and other things. The test overall tells you a grand total of nothing without proper context.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 93 of 176
    wood1208wood1208 Posts: 1,638member
    If this rumor is true and word "switch by 2020" is used than it can be end of 2019 or spring 2020 before school year starts for new Apple chip based MACs rolling out. Low cost Apple made chips can help create cheaper MACs that can be Chromebook killer in education market.
    edited April 3
  • Reply 94 of 176
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,461member
    First detailed in December, Marzipan will blur the lines between the company's mobile and desktop product lines by allowing customers to run iOS apps on macOS.
    Sorry, but again, you have the Marzipan rumor wrong. AI really ran with the "iOS apps running on macOS" interpretation, but that was never spelled out and is very unlikely. Universal app development does not mean "iOS running on macOS". It will be little different than a universal app for iOS vs tvOS -- nobody claims you're running an iOS app on your Apple TV. They have shared libraries and frameworks but the app has a different target and is different. You will not be running a little iOS app window on your 27" iMac.

    The intent is much more likely to encourage quality apps for macOS by reducing the barrier to entry if you're already building an iOS target.

    DaringFireball's John Gruber corrected this rumor and it should be noted:

    Gurman probably didn’t write the headline, but it doesn’t even make sense. iOS has no concept of a mouse cursor and runs only on touchscreen devices. MacOS has no support for touchscreen devices and requires a mouse pointer. “One user experience” is neither possible nor desirable. The truth is that this effort by Apple is almost certainly not about cross-platform applications but instead cross-platform frameworks for developers. It’s developer news, not user news.

    https://daringfireball.net/2017/12/marzipan
    I applaud your patience. I was tired of explaining it to them. 

    Bloomberg has also got the meaning wrong, so I question the vadility if the whole rumour. 
    edited April 3 docno42fastasleep
  • Reply 95 of 176
    asciiascii Posts: 5,941member
    wizard69 said:
    I really doubt we will see emulation as the primary solution to X64 apps.    Instead I think what Apple has planed is a system where by apps are purchased and then the code segments needed for a specific machine are down loaded.   They have been building up infrastructure to do this for a couple of years.  
    This is what I think too, they even spoke about it at WWDC15 calling it Apple Bitcode.

    Basically all developers upload their apps to the Mac App Store in LLVM IR (LLVM intermediate representation - see Wikipedia) and when people download apps they get a single architecture (not FAT) binary that matches their machine. 

    What about apps that aren't distributed through the Mac App Store? Maybe they will take this opportunity to lock down the Mac to the store, just like iOS.
    edited April 3
  • Reply 96 of 176
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,403member
    ascii said:
    What about apps that aren't distributed through the Mac App Store? Maybe they will take this opportunity to lock down the Mac to the store, just like iOS.
    I see no way to rule that out. Ultimately I think it comes to whether Apple feels the platform will be successful with only App Store apps or not. This has worked great for iOS, but can this work for a desktop OS going forward?

    My guess is that it won't be, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they did.
  • Reply 97 of 176
    palegolaspalegolas Posts: 1,271member
    If/ when they do it, I'd imagine we'd see a whole new branch of processors. Compatible with ARM, low level emulating Intel in hardware, but with new, unique features such as improved multi thread and what-not. The selling point being Security, Low energy, Speed, better on-chip Metal integration, Better video encoding etc?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 98 of 176
    asciiascii Posts: 5,941member
    Soli said:
    ascii said:
    What about apps that aren't distributed through the Mac App Store? Maybe they will take this opportunity to lock down the Mac to the store, just like iOS.
    I see no way to rule that out. Ultimately I think it comes to whether Apple feels the platform will be successful with only App Store apps or not. This has worked great for iOS, but can this work for a desktop OS going forward?

    My guess is that it won't be, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they did.
    It depends on the users I think. If the users put pressure on developers to distribute through the store then it could work, but if users instead decide to put pressure on Apple (to change the model) it could fail.
  • Reply 99 of 176
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,138member
    Just to let you know Apple does not own ARM or has IP for many inventions to rely on. It is owned by SoftBank and Apple has to pay license fees to SoftBank. Read the news because from ignorant posts some people may think that Apple owns many designs. Well, no.
    Nobody thinks that and nobody said it. 
    SpamSandwichSoli
  • Reply 100 of 176
    kamiltonkamilton Posts: 258member
    karmadave said:
    Every few months a story like this pops up on AI and have the same response. Apple will NOT abandon x86 architecture for the Macintosh. It would kill their Enterprise Mac business. They will continue to develop their own specialized processors, for Mac, in addition to utilizing an x86 compatible processor from Intel (or maybe AMD).
    I tend to agree with this statement.  Long term, It would make sense for Apple to design it’s own x86 chips with a partner like AMD.  These would be heavy lifting enterprise ready, secure processors for Pro machines.  At the same time, Apple can be seen introducing an ARM MacBook with MacOs running in emulation.  In the latter case, some clever code replaces the x86, so production costs are minimized, battery life is optimized and end user is none the wiser.  Now, as Apple does, you have two competing formulas and the market can indicate the winner.  After 3-5 years of additional evolution of Apple’s ARM development, it may be that x86 emulation will be ready for enterprise applications and Apple is free of outside processor dependence.
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