Who knows where Apple's target market is now? I have a 6. Wife has an X. Two girls have 8 and 8+. I hated giving the girls any phone at all because of addiction issues but all their friends have them and they were feeling left out,
I really don't like jumping in to this in a self-righteous sounding way, but seriously, that's a terrible reason to give kids phones.
Who cares if they're feeling left out of the tech-loving, addiction-forming, spyware-mined crowd? Also, you didn't give their ages, so I can't really give you a ton of grief if they're like 17 or 18, but we see so many kids amongst our peers that are giving smart(spyware) phones to their 8 year olds, and it's truly cringe-worthy. And, feeling "left out" can sometimes even be healthy for kids, as long as you're providing ways for them to socialize and excel in other ways.
FWIW, my high schoolers are still not allowed to have smart phones. The addiction thing is very, very real. Go read what the ex-facebook executives and other insiders like Tristan Harris are saying now, as they're finally coming out and speaking about it very publicly. And most kids don't have the capacity to even understand what the ramifications of having their behavior, location, conversations, etc., mined on an hourly basis will mean for them in the future.
however I have some serious restrictions on usage including straight A's in school. At least now when a classmate says where is your phone they don't have to lie that they left it at home. They pull out their gold iPhones. When the boys ask for the number they just say "nope" not allowed. They'll never get an Android while I'm in charge.
But rather than just being a complainer, I have a positive suggestion for parents of kids who are dying to have "a mobile device".
The iPodTouch is a great device. It provides a middle-ground, where kids can play games, take pictures, and interact with others. But it's not /online/ every minute of every day, and you can easily put hard limits on usage at home via your home router. It *looks* like an iPhone at a distance, but it's not. It's even better.
Clearly, that sort of discussion is not welcome to some because:
Apple can do no wrong.
Apple did it first.
Apple didn't do it first, but does it better.
Any proof otherwise, see 1.
It's really like hitting a wall sometimes. Maybe the owners/admins of this place should post a warning at the entrance here, "Die Hard Apple Fans Only. All Others Not Welcome", because that's the impression given in just the above and the behavior I've witnessed for years in reading the discussions here. As soon as the anti-Apple comment is even suggested, the wolves attack.
Sorry, but you’re full of shit.
I'm not so sure about that. There's a fine line in all of these discussions, and there clearly are a bunch of posters that take the 1-4 attitude spelled out above. And I'm no newb, I've been an Apple developer for longer than many people here have been alive, and an AI account holder since 2002 (though I changed the account in 2006 to match my same-named macrumors account, which has been idle for years now). This is mostly irrelevant, except to drive home the fact that I'm not a newb, and I've been in the Apple court for many, many years. I've worked directly with Apple on multiple products in the past, and I don't even allow windows or android products on my personal networks.
In that context, obviously some of the comments made on this thread by these new accounts are troll-like, and I'm glad they were deleted. But IMO the comment above is not. I wish some of the rabid apple-can-do-no-wrong commenters would tone it down and be more rational. Yes, this is an Apple-centric site, and it bothers me that some people come here with and anti-apple agenda, but it doesn't help when Apple supporters end up being just as irrational at times. /end of rant; I agree with the rest of your comment below.
The resistance regulars here have to absurd claims about android (“It has better malware scanners!”) isn’t because we feel Apple can do no wrong. We all have things we can cite that we wish Apple did better (example of mine include the horrible ATV remote, and the frustrating keyboard which can’t learn when I meant to hit the space bar instead of the comma, etc). Our resistance to silly claims about Android and Apple is because Apple’s superior products speak loudly. Macs, iPhone, iPad, iOS, AirPods, Watch, 64-bit, etc etc... Their products and tech routinely kill it, inspiring dozens of knockoffs and chinese copies.
HAHA had to laugh at that one. Nah no troll. Just disenchanted with iphone. Still a big fan of apple watch and ipad....and airpods!
But the iPhone? After using the note 8 for a bit, I'm glad I'm off iphone
@ jsmythe00 -- I love your comments...Both of them. Unlike many Apple or Android fanboys, I too have used both. I also owned a Windows phone at one point.
There are pros and cons to each of them, and I actually preferred Windows phone over both of them had they ever been able to overcome the Ap gap.
As a current Galaxy S8 owner, If Apple came out with a compelling device at the right price point I would at this point seriously consider returning to IOS...I am weary of flaky Android upgrades and Google's constant spying...Let's just say the Oreo upgrade from Nougat was a PIA, and if I wasn't tech savvy I would have been really frustrated...
I am SERIOUSLY considering moving back to IOS...
Oh, and I grow weary of all the FANBOYS on AI bashing anyone with a constructive counter point to Apple Kool-aid....Tech is a tool -- Not an identity!
I love his quotes too, and yours. Same here, I moved away from iOS too. I have an s8 and Gear s3 and love them. No more locked in to "Apple's way or the highway" store. But, I won't go back.
As for Android malware, Sophos has a free malware scanner for Android that works great and is unobtrusive.
Do you see the irony of advocating Android because there are great malware scanners for it!?
I feel like a proper malware scanner would be trying to shut down whole sections of the Android code.
Clearly, that sort of discussion is not welcome to some because:
Apple can do no wrong.
Apple did it first.
Apple didn't do it first, but does it better.
Any proof otherwise, see 1.
It's really like hitting a wall sometimes. Maybe the owners/admins of this place should post a warning at the entrance here, "Die Hard Apple Fans Only. All Others Not Welcome", because that's the impression given in just the above and the behavior I've witnessed for years in reading the discussions here. As soon as the anti-Apple comment is even suggested, the wolves attack.
Sorry, but you’re full of shit.
I'm not so sure about that. There's a fine line in all of these discussions, and there clearly are a bunch of posters that take the 1-4 attitude spelled out above. And I'm no newb, I've been an Apple developer for longer than many people here have been alive, and an AI account holder since 2002 (though I changed the account in 2006 to match my same-named macrumors account, which has been idle for years now). This is mostly irrelevant, except to drive home the fact that I'm not a newb, and I've been in the Apple court for many, many years. I've worked directly with Apple on multiple products in the past, and I don't even allow windows or android products on my personal networks.
In that context, obviously some of the comments made on this thread by these new accounts are troll-like, and I'm glad they were deleted. But IMO the comment above is not. I wish some of the rabid apple-can-do-no-wrong commenters would tone it down and be more rational. Yes, this is an Apple-centric site, and it bothers me that some people come here with and anti-apple agenda, but it doesn't help when Apple supporters end up being just as irrational at times. /end of rant; I agree with the rest of your comment below.
The resistance regulars here have to absurd claims about android (“It has better malware scanners!”) isn’t because we feel Apple can do no wrong. We all have things we can cite that we wish Apple did better (example of mine include the horrible ATV remote, and the frustrating keyboard which can’t learn when I meant to hit the space bar instead of the comma, etc). Our resistance to silly claims about Android and Apple is because Apple’s superior products speak loudly. Macs, iPhone, iPad, iOS, AirPods, Watch, 64-bit, etc etc... Their products and tech routinely kill it, inspiring dozens of knockoffs and chinese copies.
I, like you, have probably been around since before many here were born - despite my low post count . I started at an Apple Authorized dealers as a part time job while in college. There were still selling the ][e to schools and the Mac Classic had just come out. This was before Apple took away the edu market and went into a downward spiral in education as a result. Got my AASP+ certification and then went to be the Apple Product manager at a fairly large computer shop. Currently head of a small group of desktop admins for a University that handles ~2500 computers, about 900-950 of which are Macs and iPads.
I've been witness to Apple making plenty of stupid moves and genius creativity. I once was in the 1-4 attitude I described, but that has worn off long, long ago. Being exposed to so much tech around me, I've definitely learned to use the right tool for the job I want to accomplish - and that is not always Apple which I understand is blasphemy to some on a site like this.
I still "default to" my Mac whenever I use a computer. I like it's unix underpinnings and that I can have the awesome GUI which (I think) still has no competition, but I can get dirty with the Terminal when I want to. This is exactly why I don't care for iOS and never will. I like an open system and, with that, a Malware scanner is a necessary evil. It is a trade off I'm willing to make. And, no, it does not consume any noticeable system resources or reduce my battery life, requiring me to "carry a battery pack" - that's just silly.
blah64 however I have someThe iPodTouch is a great device. It provides a middle-ground, where kids can play games, take pictures
I hear you but I’m thinking you don’t have girls. iPod is no different than an iPhone regarding my biggest concern - the camera. Try having a conversation with a 10 year old girl to never ever take a picture of yourself without your clothes. She got really embarrassed but I had to have that discussion. Their mom is really strict but that topic is mine. Boys are going ask for that photo. Boys are bad which is why I ban them from the phones. I can tell you from first hand experience - they can’t be trusted. Until they are 30 they are very reckless and crazy. Then from age 30 - 90 they can be quite sane. After 90 they start getting crazy again. I’m not at that point yet - right in the middle of the sanity range but my dad is 90 and after being so reliable for decades he is starting to break down.
HAHA had to laugh at that one. Nah no troll. Just disenchanted with iphone. Still a big fan of apple watch and ipad....and airpods!
But the iPhone? After using the note 8 for a bit, I'm glad I'm off iphone
@ jsmythe00 -- I love your comments...Both of them. Unlike many Apple or Android fanboys, I too have used both. I also owned a Windows phone at one point.
There are pros and cons to each of them, and I actually preferred Windows phone over both of them had they ever been able to overcome the Ap gap.
As a current Galaxy S8 owner, If Apple came out with a compelling device at the right price point I would at this point seriously consider returning to IOS...I am weary of flaky Android upgrades and Google's constant spying...Let's just say the Oreo upgrade from Nougat was a PIA, and if I wasn't tech savvy I would have been really frustrated...
I am SERIOUSLY considering moving back to IOS...
Oh, and I grow weary of all the FANBOYS on AI bashing anyone with a constructive counter point to Apple Kool-aid....Tech is a tool -- Not an identity!
Thanks...sometimes you can't get through to the kool-aid drinkers. And i admit, i was heavy on the punch, still am on some things, but theres no way iicould justify buying iPhone X.
I spent a night trying to defend iPhone x to the note 8 and just looked like a fool. As you said they both have pros and cons but i think there's one HUGE difference...willingness to adapt
Android(Samsung) is willing to change and bend to customer wants quickly...literally from one year to the next
Apple believes what they make is the Apex of design and anything else is wrong and will not change unless the ABSOLUTELY have to.
How do you grow when you think everything you do is right?
By being right. You can honestly defend Samsung’s weak face recognition solution and iris scanner that causes eye strain against Apple’s FaceID? Seriously? You’re lying to yourself.
HAHA had to laugh at that one. Nah no troll. Just disenchanted with iphone. Still a big fan of apple watch and ipad....and airpods!
But the iPhone? After using the note 8 for a bit, I'm glad I'm off iphone
@ jsmythe00 -- I love your comments...Both of them. Unlike many Apple or Android fanboys, I too have used both. I also owned a Windows phone at one point.
There are pros and cons to each of them, and I actually preferred Windows phone over both of them had they ever been able to overcome the Ap gap.
As a current Galaxy S8 owner, If Apple came out with a compelling device at the right price point I would at this point seriously consider returning to IOS...I am weary of flaky Android upgrades and Google's constant spying...Let's just say the Oreo upgrade from Nougat was a PIA, and if I wasn't tech savvy I would have been really frustrated...
I am SERIOUSLY considering moving back to IOS...
Oh, and I grow weary of all the FANBOYS on AI bashing anyone with a constructive counter point to Apple Kool-aid....Tech is a tool -- Not an identity!
Thanks...sometimes you can't get through to the kool-aid drinkers. And i admit, i was heavy on the punch, still am on some things, but theres no way iicould justify buying iPhone X.
I spent a night trying to defend iPhone x to the note 8 and just looked like a fool. As you said they both have pros and cons but i think there's one HUGE difference...willingness to adapt
Android(Samsung) is willing to change and bend to customer wants quickly...literally from one year to the next
Apple believes what they make is the Apex of design and anything else is wrong and will not change unless the ABSOLUTELY have to.
How do you grow when you think everything you do is right?
By putting out a device like the original iPhone.
Literally everything that Samsung phones do right (or arguably „better“) is a direct result of that.
There is a phrase for that: To 'rest on your laurels' means that you get lazy or complacent about what you could achieve because you're too busy basking in the memories of former glories. Credit http://www.historyrevealed.com/
Resting on your laurels. Is that how you catch all your competition flat-footed two years behind on getting a 64-bit processor into a phone? Example after example.
When I just now deleted all of jsmythe00’s messages (the entire history) and banned his account, I was prompted, as always, to enter a reason for the decision to ban. Here is what I entered...
“Acute obtuseness in the face of solid arguments against his claims and conjectures. Takes the conversation into a downward spiral.”
Don’t let me need to write this about you. (This message to the obvious low-message-number android trolls who come around on occasion.)
This tells me everything about what this place is. And you apparently have no self-awareness. (talk about being obtuse, hah)
HAHA had to laugh at that one. Nah no troll. Just disenchanted with iphone. Still a big fan of apple watch and ipad....and airpods!
But the iPhone? After using the note 8 for a bit, I'm glad I'm off iphone
@ jsmythe00 -- I love your comments...Both of them. Unlike many Apple or Android fanboys, I too have used both. I also owned a Windows phone at one point.
There are pros and cons to each of them, and I actually preferred Windows phone over both of them had they ever been able to overcome the Ap gap.
As a current Galaxy S8 owner, If Apple came out with a compelling device at the right price point I would at this point seriously consider returning to IOS...I am weary of flaky Android upgrades and Google's constant spying...Let's just say the Oreo upgrade from Nougat was a PIA, and if I wasn't tech savvy I would have been really frustrated...
I am SERIOUSLY considering moving back to IOS...
Oh, and I grow weary of all the FANBOYS on AI bashing anyone with a constructive counter point to Apple Kool-aid....Tech is a tool -- Not an identity!
I love his quotes too, and yours. Same here, I moved away from iOS too. I have an s8 and Gear s3 and love them. No more locked in to "Apple's way or the highway" store. But, I won't go back.
As for Android malware, Sophos has a free malware scanner for Android that works great and is unobtrusive.
Do you see the irony of adocating Android because there are great malware scanners for it!?
Of course I see that irony.
At the same time, my personal preference is that Android is much more open than iOS which is why I went with it. I can't do a lot more of the things I want to do with it, and the trade-off for a more open OS is that you need an extra layer of shields. I suppose Google could do their own XProtect style system for it, the same as macOS that perpetuates the myth that Macs don't get malware. Apple is just really good at blocking things fast with XProtect, kudos.
But, those here saying things like "what they don't tell you is the extra battery pack you need for it" are just being snarky. Obviously, that isn't true nor is there any noticeable impact on my battery or phone performance.
I like the open nature of Android the same way I like the openness of macOS (at least for now, I hope they don't iOSify it.) I get the great GUI of the Mac, which still has no competition in my opinion, with the BSD underpinnings so I can hit the Terminal if I need to. There are a lot of fantastic pieces of software for the macOS that would never be allowed into the App Store because they require access to the system that Apple won't allow in the store. But, you can use them if you so choose. iOS allows none of this unless you go the jailbreak route. If iOS had an "Allow from Anywhere" switch like the macOS, I'd consider those devices an option for me.
No more locked in to "Apple's way or the highway" store. But, I won't go back.
Living in mixed environment is pretty much only for professionals. Can't imagine a regular consumer having to navigate moving content from one OS to another. It would be like living in a foreign country and not speaking the language. For me, it probably wouldn't be so much of a problem because I use Mac, iOS, Windows and Linux at work but never touched Android. Can't imagine my family not having the Apple ecosystem. That is all they know.
All you have to do is study the source code and run various anti-spyware and antivirus apps on your Android phone and Android Gear watch, which is a totally reasonable thing for every user to do¡
I'm not even sure what this means. You mention in another comment "If you don't use iOS how do you know about iOS?" It certainly seems you don't know about Android, or at least what is current.
Choose a reputable anti-malware app that does everything and you only need it on your phone. Done.
Wow! So I need an anti-malware for my phone? And everything will be hunky-dory? No affect on battery either?
And they call us Apple fans deluded.
Well according to Sophos, their antivirus software will not compromise your phone’s performance or battery life. And it’s FREE!
What they didn't mention was the second processor and battery pack you need piggybacked to your phone to make this actually true.
The thing that really turned me off after a while with Android was the arrogance of the users. They thought they were the superior authority on anything tech. And the use of antivirus programs and other "security" apps is a joke. It literally goes to show how insecure Android is. I woke up and others will too.
blah64 however I have someThe iPodTouch is a great device. It provides a middle-ground, where kids can play games, take pictures
I hear you but I’m thinking you don’t have girls.
You might think that, but you'd be wrong! I'm the very fortunate parent of brilliant and wonderful kids/teens/adults that have been (mostly) very easy to raise. :-)
iPod is no different than an iPhone regarding my biggest concern - the camera. Try having a conversation with a 10 year old girl to never ever take a picture of yourself without your clothes. She got really embarrassed but I had to have that discussion. Their mom is really strict but that topic is mine. Boys are going ask for that photo. Boys are bad which is why I ban them from the phones. I can tell you from first hand experience - they can’t be trusted. Until they are 30 they are very reckless and crazy. Then from age 30 - 90 they can be quite sane. After 90 they start getting crazy again. I’m not at that point yet - right in the middle of the sanity range but my dad is 90 and after being so reliable for decades he is starting to break down.
Certainly the cameras are a concern, and I don't blame you at all for having that conversation. It's one that needs to happen with boys as well, though it's a somewhat different conversation.
But what you're worried about isn't really a big concern for me, because my kids understand the dangers of sharing *any* pictures of themselves online, regardless of attire, and aren't allowed to do so. And believe me, they don't. Selfies aren't a "thing" in our family; front-facing cameras are taped over, just as you'll see on many laptop webcams these days.
I'm a little surprised that with your (justifiable) concerns, that you'd give always-connected devices to your kids. The pull for kids to use stuff like facebook can be really strong; it's extremely troubling, the kids have no idea what they're doing/enabling, and always-connected devices make it very difficult to control. Your comment "I hated giving the girls any phone at all because of addiction issues but
all their friends have them and they were feeling left out" still troubles me a lot, because you're aware of the problem and gave in anyway. Your kids' friends sound like trouble - we didn't face that, or at least not in any big way, and I'm happy that my kids grew up learning how to not join the herd mentality. I don't expect most parents to draw a hard line in the sand like we do, because so few people understand the problems, but it sounds like you do. Do you have other restrictions beyond just "no sexting"? That's just the extreme end of the spectrum.
If you haven't already done so, I'd strongly suggest reading the stuff Roger McNamee, Sean Parker, Chameth Palihapitiya, Tristan Harris and others have been writing over the past few months. It's really powerful stuff. One example quote from Palihapitiya (ex facebook VP): "The short-term, dopamine-driven feedback loops that we have created are destroying how society works", Harris talks about "the race to the bottom of the brain stem". Many executives at these companies don't let their kids use their own products, but they unleash them on the masses. :-(
Comments
Who cares if they're feeling left out of the tech-loving, addiction-forming, spyware-mined crowd? Also, you didn't give their ages, so I can't really give you a ton of grief if they're like 17 or 18, but we see so many kids amongst our peers that are giving smart(spyware) phones to their 8 year olds, and it's truly cringe-worthy. And, feeling "left out" can sometimes even be healthy for kids, as long as you're providing ways for them to socialize and excel in other ways.
FWIW, my high schoolers are still not allowed to have smart phones. The addiction thing is very, very real. Go read what the ex-facebook executives and other insiders like Tristan Harris are saying now, as they're finally coming out and speaking about it very publicly. And most kids don't have the capacity to even understand what the ramifications of having their behavior, location, conversations, etc., mined on an hourly basis will mean for them in the future.
But rather than just being a complainer, I have a positive suggestion for parents of kids who are dying to have "a mobile device".
The iPodTouch is a great device. It provides a middle-ground, where kids can play games, take pictures, and interact with others. But it's not /online/ every minute of every day, and you can easily put hard limits on usage at home via your home router. It *looks* like an iPhone at a distance, but it's not. It's even better.
In that context, obviously some of the comments made on this thread by these new accounts are troll-like, and I'm glad they were deleted. But IMO the comment above is not. I wish some of the rabid apple-can-do-no-wrong commenters would tone it down and be more rational. Yes, this is an Apple-centric site, and it bothers me that some people come here with and anti-apple agenda, but it doesn't help when Apple supporters end up being just as irrational at times. /end of rant; I agree with the rest of your comment below.
I've been witness to Apple making plenty of stupid moves and genius creativity. I once was in the 1-4 attitude I described, but that has worn off long, long ago. Being exposed to so much tech around me, I've definitely learned to use the right tool for the job I want to accomplish - and that is not always Apple which I understand is blasphemy to some on a site like this.
I still "default to" my Mac whenever I use a computer. I like it's unix underpinnings and that I can have the awesome GUI which (I think) still has no competition, but I can get dirty with the Terminal when I want to. This is exactly why I don't care for iOS and never will. I like an open system and, with that, a Malware scanner is a necessary evil. It is a trade off I'm willing to make. And, no, it does not consume any noticeable system resources or reduce my battery life, requiring me to "carry a battery pack" - that's just silly.
At the same time, my personal preference is that Android is much more open than iOS which is why I went with it. I can't do a lot more of the things I want to do with it, and the trade-off for a more open OS is that you need an extra layer of shields. I suppose Google could do their own XProtect style system for it, the same as macOS that perpetuates the myth that Macs don't get malware. Apple is just really good at blocking things fast with XProtect, kudos.
But, those here saying things like "what they don't tell you is the extra battery pack you need for it" are just being snarky. Obviously, that isn't true nor is there any noticeable impact on my battery or phone performance.
I like the open nature of Android the same way I like the openness of macOS (at least for now, I hope they don't iOSify it.) I get the great GUI of the Mac, which still has no competition in my opinion, with the BSD underpinnings so I can hit the Terminal if I need to. There are a lot of fantastic pieces of software for the macOS that would never be allowed into the App Store because they require access to the system that Apple won't allow in the store. But, you can use them if you so choose. iOS allows none of this unless you go the jailbreak route. If iOS had an "Allow from Anywhere" switch like the macOS, I'd consider those devices an option for me.
Certainly the cameras are a concern, and I don't blame you at all for having that conversation. It's one that needs to happen with boys as well, though it's a somewhat different conversation.
But what you're worried about isn't really a big concern for me, because my kids understand the dangers of sharing *any* pictures of themselves online, regardless of attire, and aren't allowed to do so. And believe me, they don't. Selfies aren't a "thing" in our family; front-facing cameras are taped over, just as you'll see on many laptop webcams these days.
I'm a little surprised that with your (justifiable) concerns, that you'd give always-connected devices to your kids. The pull for kids to use stuff like facebook can be really strong; it's extremely troubling, the kids have no idea what they're doing/enabling, and always-connected devices make it very difficult to control. Your comment "I hated giving the girls any phone at all because of addiction issues but all their friends have them and they were feeling left out" still troubles me a lot, because you're aware of the problem and gave in anyway. Your kids' friends sound like trouble - we didn't face that, or at least not in any big way, and I'm happy that my kids grew up learning how to not join the herd mentality. I don't expect most parents to draw a hard line in the sand like we do, because so few people understand the problems, but it sounds like you do. Do you have other restrictions beyond just "no sexting"? That's just the extreme end of the spectrum.
If you haven't already done so, I'd strongly suggest reading the stuff Roger McNamee, Sean Parker, Chameth Palihapitiya, Tristan Harris and others have been writing over the past few months. It's really powerful stuff. One example quote from Palihapitiya (ex facebook VP): "The short-term, dopamine-driven feedback loops that we have created are destroying how society works", Harris talks about "the race to the bottom of the brain stem". Many executives at these companies don't let their kids use their own products, but they unleash them on the masses. :-(