Actually I think they designed it with their core demographic in mind. The customers they're seeing now have grown up using keyboards with no travel at all, so I'm not all that surprised that they've decreased it in the new models.
That is effectively the same thing an Apple Store Genius told me today. He basically said that people that use/used the iPad a lot seem to have no issues with the new keyboard.
Exactly, so I don’t see them reversing course right now. If there is a reliability problem then they’ll have to fix it, but I’ve not seen any reliable evidence that there is. Still, we all know that Apple is extremely susceptible to bad press.
Anyway, this is where Apple is heading:
And I’m hoping that when they arrive, they draw bigger cursor keys.
The initial Apple Watch was mostly useless, and even the current iteration is barely usable due to battery-life constraints.
Uhh...bullshit. As the owner of a Series 1, and living with the owner of my previous Series 0, neither of these assertions are true. Mine went on the charger last night with 40% charge after all-day use. My 0 used to be at 30% with watchOS 1 back at the beginning, and I used it all the time.
Completely agree. No issues with battery life on my series 0 or new model with 3G
fastasleep said: Still funny to me that people say this stuff with authority, as if they know what Jobs would’ve actually done in situation x. What a disservice to him. ... Look, I know you have a hard time imagining a future of computing that looks different from your own use case, or even a different definition of “professional” that doesn’t involve a big clicky keyboard, but Apple can. Look at all the input/keyboard patents on Patently Apple going back ten years and the tea leaves aren’t that hard to read. The technology isn’t where it needs to be yet to replace the traditional keyboard, but you can see the steps they’ve taken and continue to take. The future is coming whether you like it or not; you should give it a chance.
Jobs actually cared about computers... particularly the professional models. While I can't know exactly how it would have gone, I'm pretty confident I wouldn't be far off.
And, this has nothing to do with future-tech imagination. I'm pretty sure professionals of the future will need to get information into their computers, too. Unless you're imagining some kind of virtual keys with taptic, force-fields, and tractor-beams, I think we'll be sticking with real keyboards for quite a long time.
It is not only Jobs who cared about the professional models. I am convinced that all people from the hardware department care about the professional models. In order to design their products they have to use CAD/CAM, visualisation, simulations. These programmes do not run on an iPAD. When you work on a specific detail it is not enough to move a poly line, edit a datapoint, you work whole day on it and the most efficient interface is still a keyboard a mouse and a display!!!
Programmers might have other priorities and anyway concentrate on the soft part, but the hardware design team surely is interested in Apple producing pro machines, since they are the first who will have to work on them whole day!!!
It is one thing to be on a construction side or in a prototype laboratory and edit a wrong dataset, correct a small mistake, take some measurements with a laser etc., here an iPad is enough and the fact that it is sealed is even an advantage. But as soon as you have to work you need another setting. Try to model a skyscraper, a bridge, a circuit or the casing of a MBP on a screen the size of an iPad, with your thumb and you will change profession.
The more you rely on a product, the more you care about it. The PR and business administration department is a different matter, but historically they knew what design is worth. They learned everything from Olivetti anyway! Even the circular campus has been taken from Gabetti e Isola's project for IVREA.
The moment they forget their DNA, the importance of a well designed project, of the coherence necessary to carry it out, they will disappear just like, unfortunately, Olivetti did.
I'm gone from small to big over the past few years. Had a 2015 MacBook, which I bought for its portability (because it fit my workflow better). Hated the keyboard, and the keys always got stuck. But a quick dusting with come compressed air would usually do the trick. I then moved on to a 2016 13-inch MBP (no Touch Bar), and the keyboard seemed a little better. The keys were fine until about a year in, then they started sticking more often. The compressed air trick still worked to a degree, but I still don't think that they functioned as well as day one. My wife is now using this laptop.
I never had a problem with the keyboard on my older Airs or MacBook Pros -- if they got a crumb or something under the keys, a firm press would just obliterate them. Not so with the new keyboards.
Most recently, I picked up a pre-owned 15-inch MacBook Pro (2016) from B&H Photo in like new condition (9+ rating in their parlance) for $1600 with no tax. Still has a warranty until November 2018 and I'm still debating as to whether I should get AppleCare+. I'm taking every precaution with this laptop -- no eating around it, no snacks, no drinks, no nothing. I'm not taking any chances.
On a side note, I'm still pissed at Apple for ditching MagSafe. I can't tell you how many time MagSafe saved my older MacBooks back in the day either from my clumsiness or the inattentiveness of others. And I tried to take every precaution with the new USB-C/Thunderbolt 3 power on my recent MacBooks. However, I was outfoxed by my 2-year-old about a month ago. The 13-inch MBP was sitting on our round kitchen table plugged into the wall. I got up for a minute to go do something and my son went around the table and tripped over the cord, which was plugged into the wall nearby. The jolt knocked the laptop to the ground, denting the top cover on the corner (but luckily not damaging the display) and THANK GOODNESS, it didn't fall on my son's foot -- that would have hurt like hell or he could have lost a digit.
Had it been MagSafe, it would have just detached without issue. Even worse is that I've searched all over for breakaway magnetic Thunderbolt adapters for MacBooks, but the reviews for every single one of them sucks. Why oh WHY did they have to get rid of MagSafe?
I really miss those 17" MacBook Pros. Would love to see a larger screen again (plus a return to MagSafe).
I think Apple has narrowed their target audience a bit too much: They have had an increasingly narrow focus on thin & light for portability: Which produces innate sacrifices in both repairability (as we are seeing) and functionality (keyboards with little travel, small screens and ports that are highly restricted).
Yet, we will increasingly see powerful iPads taking over the lower end & highly portable laptop market.
Hopefully, that pushes Apple into offering more traditional laptops that are:
- More repairable and upgradeable (Where harddrives, memory and batteries can be EASILY swapped out)
- Have full function keyboards with better travel and feel (and number pads on the 15 & 17 inch models) - A full range of ports
- "Softer" screens better adapted to text than to pictures.
- Magsafe power
Yeh, such a monster would not be sleek and pretty. It would big and clunky looking. But that's OK if it better meets the needs of the users...
And, it's not like it's either / or: Apple doesn't have to choose between highly portable and traditional -- they are big enough to offer both. And, that becomes increasingly true when one realizes that the appeal of MacBooks is less in their hardware and more in their software/OS and Apple ecosystem. So, broadening out their hardware line makes sense....
And, that becomes increasingly true when one realizes that the appeal of MacBooks is less in their hardware and more in their software/OS and Apple ecosystem.
As long as it has a terminal, runs some sort of Unix/Linux + my CAD, modeling + graphics software I am ok. Take away anything of these and I change to something else. A world of iPads, where no terminal exists, is not something I am eager to experience.
But Apple asks a premium, their machines cost a lot. It is one thing as long as they are solid, repairable, etc. If they start to just cost a lot and brake down easily, it makes no sense to pay that much money. I would leave Apple to those who need status symbols.
I might be ok with “it just works”. I am not ok with “it brakes down just like that”.
fastasleep said: Why do people think Jony Ive is sitting around designing every component on every device? ... By all accounts, Ive largely has a supervisory role in overall design. Anyone who thinks he designed the butterfly key mechanisms has no idea what they’re talking about.
Yeah, the question is whether he, or Tim, etc. had say in whether it shipped or not. (Instead of Jobs, who would have told them to get back to work and do better.)
Still funny to me that people say this stuff with authority, as if they know what Jobs would’ve actually done in situation x. What a disservice to him.
fastasleep said: All signs point to them moving to flat virtual control surfaces. This and the enlarged trackpad and Touch Bar and Taptic Engune are steps in that direction. I’m sure they didn’t anticipate the keyboard failing, but it’s absurd to assume they didn’t do testing. Apple makes mistakes, and I expect they’ll find a way to correct this, eventually, if the numbers are as bad as they appear to be.
If true, that's even worse. If you want to experiment with this kind of stuff in the odd, unique product, that's one thing. This is for the high-end professional-use product. What professionals want a flat virtual keyboard? Why?
Look, I know you have a hard time imagining a future of computing that looks different from your own use case, or even a different definition of “professional” that doesn’t involve a big clicky keyboard, but Apple can. Look at all the input/keyboard patents on Patently Apple going back ten years and the tea leaves aren’t that hard to read. The technology isn’t where it needs to be yet to replace the traditional keyboard, but you can see the steps they’ve taken and continue to take. The future is coming whether you like it or not; you should give it a chance.
Apparently @cgWerks forgets the days when Apple would have issues with a Mac and say absolutely nothing, NOTHING for MONTHS under Steve Jobs. But Tim is CEO so lets crap all over everything and over exaggerate everything to the max to make it look like he doesn't know what he's doing.
And, that becomes increasingly true when one realizes that the appeal of MacBooks is less in their hardware and more in their software/OS and Apple ecosystem.
As long as it has a terminal, runs some sort of Unix/Linux + my CAD, modeling + graphics software I am ok. Take away anything of these and I change to something else. A world of iPads, where no terminal exists, is not something I am eager to experience.
But Apple asks a premium, their machines cost a lot. It is one thing as long as they are solid, repairable, etc. If they start to just cost a lot and brake down easily, it makes no sense to pay that much money. I would leave Apple to those who need status symbols.
I might be ok with “it just works”. I am not ok with “it brakes down just like that”.
iPads will not be aimed at the photo editing / CAD crowd. Not for a long, long time -- if ever. Instead, they will be highly portable devices used for more traditional / low end, broadbased/consumer oriented laptop uses such as Word Processing (as well as traditional tablet type stuff).
Again, it doesn't have to be either / or: Apple has the power to fully meet the needs of all of those markets without compromise. Right now though, they are trying to shoe horn all the laptop markets into a single theme. (And, yes, Apple produces laptop models -- but the average user can't tell one from the other, they're all mostly variations on a single theme.)
Trying to stuff every laptop user into the MacBook type device is like trying to fit every mobile user into an iPhone X. You can do that, but... the compromises would be enormous and you would be pushing large numbers of users overboard.
fastasleep said: Why do people think Jony Ive is sitting around designing every component on every device? ... By all accounts, Ive largely has a supervisory role in overall design. Anyone who thinks he designed the butterfly key mechanisms has no idea what they’re talking about.
Yeah, the question is whether he, or Tim, etc. had say in whether it shipped or not. (Instead of Jobs, who would have told them to get back to work and do better.)
Still funny to me that people say this stuff with authority, as if they know what Jobs would’ve actually done in situation x. What a disservice to him.
fastasleep said: All signs point to them moving to flat virtual control surfaces. This and the enlarged trackpad and Touch Bar and Taptic Engune are steps in that direction. I’m sure they didn’t anticipate the keyboard failing, but it’s absurd to assume they didn’t do testing. Apple makes mistakes, and I expect they’ll find a way to correct this, eventually, if the numbers are as bad as they appear to be.
If true, that's even worse. If you want to experiment with this kind of stuff in the odd, unique product, that's one thing. This is for the high-end professional-use product. What professionals want a flat virtual keyboard? Why?
Look, I know you have a hard time imagining a future of computing that looks different from your own use case, or even a different definition of “professional” that doesn’t involve a big clicky keyboard, but Apple can. Look at all the input/keyboard patents on Patently Apple going back ten years and the tea leaves aren’t that hard to read. The technology isn’t where it needs to be yet to replace the traditional keyboard, but you can see the steps they’ve taken and continue to take. The future is coming whether you like it or not; you should give it a chance.
Apparently @cgWerks forgets the days when Apple would have issues with a Mac and say absolutely nothing, NOTHING for MONTHS under Steve Jobs. But Tim is CEO so lets crap all over everything and over exaggerate everything to the max to make it look like he doesn't know what he's doing.
Right! Steve wasn't perfect. He knew that.
But then, neither is Tim -- and he knows it too!
That said, while Tim is an outstanding CEO, he still lacks some of Steve's strengths (while bringing other strengths to the table). There is no reason to condemn those who say "Steve would have done it differently or better. I'm sure that Tim says that on regular basis himself. That's the true mark of a great CEO: self doubt and humility.
Rayz2016 said: Anyway, this is where Apple is heading:
Right up there with flying cars...
SEJU said: But as soon as you have to work you need another setting. Try to model a skyscraper, a bridge, a circuit or the casing of a MBP on a screen the size of an iPad, with your thumb and you will change profession. ... The moment they forget their DNA, the importance of a well designed project, of the coherence necessary to carry it out, they will disappear just like, unfortunately, Olivetti did.
Exactly. I sometimes wonder what these all-on-iOS people actually do with computers. I actually tried it for about 1.5 years, at least for mobile use. At the time I was doing mostly writing, research, and meeting notes. There were some definite advantages (small, light-weight, less distraction, more social acceptability in meetings, etc.), but a whole lot of workflow and efficiency downsides. Any heavier type use than that, and it just magnifies. I gave up and when back to a laptop when my usage needs increased.
re: disappear - except that they are starting with a heck of a lot of cash and brand-loyalty. It's going to take them a while to run through that, but they eventually will if, as you say, they don't continue to put the product and UX first.
GeorgeBMac said: And, it's not like it's either / or: Apple doesn't have to choose between highly portable and traditional -- they are big enough to offer both.
Yes. The argument here isn't that they shouldn't have made the current incarnation of the MBP. It's that they shouldn't have *ONLY* made such a narrow use-case band for the whole lineup. If they added a 15" that was a bit thicker/bigger and included something more like the previous gen keyboard, a few more ports, possibly a bigger battery and the controller to put in more RAM, adequate cooling, etc. then the higher-end pros would have had an option and there would be less complaining.
macxpress said: Apparently @cgWerks forgets the days when Apple would have issues with a Mac and say absolutely nothing, NOTHING for MONTHS under Steve Jobs. But Tim is CEO so lets crap all over everything and over exaggerate everything to the max to make it look like he doesn't know what he's doing.
No, I don't think I'm saying anything of the sort. But cgWerks has been around around long enough to recognize when Apple either switches priorities, or screws up enough such that it looks like they have.
GeorgeBMac said: Again, it doesn't have to be either / or: Apple has the power to fully meet the needs of all of those markets without compromise.
Precisely... which is why many of us are so upset. I'm not sure why all these Apple-can-do-no-wrong types are so insistent that Apple should make one device and everyone should be happy with it.
For example, what is holding back Apple from taking product designs they already have and putting newer components in?
Or, can these people seriously make an argument for why a company as big as Apple (where single products are bigger than most other companies) can't seem to update certain product lines? I know they had an insane growth period to deal with, but at some point, the incompetence thesis starts to wear a bit thin, and we start imagining there is some actual bigger plan in play (which many of us don't like).
GeorgeBMac said: That said, while Tim is an outstanding CEO, he still lacks some of Steve's strengths (while bringing other strengths to the table). There is no reason to condemn those who say "Steve would have done it differently or better. I'm sure that Tim says that on regular basis himself. That's the true mark of a great CEO: self doubt and humility.
As long as Tim is on the same page as Steve was in regards to product and UX being job # 1, I'm fine with his faults/failures. The problem is, as I said above, that at some point, I can't believe it is all faults and failures causing what I'm seeing.
So why not move the speaker grilles above the touchscreen so that it can be wide enough for properly-sized buttons? And black Apple Pencil when?
Ha. This thread is fun ;0)
To me the speaker grilles are mostly cosmetic anyway. The sound gets driven out of the vents on the bottom, bounces on the surface the MBP is placed on. This is an interesting construction. We used to assemble our speakers when I was in high school and music is still one of my hobbies. I appreciate the fact that Apple takes care of the audio part very much. It was one of the first things that stroke me with this machine: the clear separation and wide sound image. When it arrived I spend an hour with my head above the keyboard trying to just hear the music I was playing, to hear one instrument coming from left and the other from right... but a great part of it is not coming out of the speaker grill ...
Again, I really like this generation. I appreciate the machine. I like the Touch Bar, maybe I just adapted, but in my usage scenario it is able to make things easier. What I am still missing is the ESC key in all Autodesk programmes and of cause the function keys as short cuts in the same place, but the last one could be solved by Autodesk in software. In Adobe the Touch Bar already simplifies my workflow. I am perfectly fine with USB-C/TB3 even with USB-C/TB3 only!
But this machine had more service calls than most of my other machines combined and I work with Macs exclusively since the mid 90s!!! Keyboard, logic board twice, display. After 18 months over 10 trips to the genius bar? This machine gives more problems than my 2011 after its GPU/logic board broke down! And no I do not take my MBP to construction side or eat on it! I have an iPad for that ;0) I mean when I take my machines to the Genius Bar even after more than 5 years they mark down the cosmetic condition and always put "no apparent usage signs" or let us say "as new", that is how I tread my tools.
Do we want to make a test? If I detach the audiointerface (Pioneer DJM 900 NXS2) from this 2016 MBP right now the Touch Bar will go blank immediately and I will have to restart the machine. This did never happen with other generations. I am still not sure if this depends from the hardware architecture or is driver, firmware related, ... I opened a dev bug report the day I received the machine. I repeat the day I received the machine! Some months ago the issue got closed, has it been solved? No.
In case anyone could test this on a 2017, please let me know! Although, since the logic board got exchanged twice I guess it is "normal" at least for the 2016 generation.
For over 25 years I always bought top of the line, maxed out and used it. After I went on to a new machine the old one took over another task in the house. We still have Powerbooks around running certain things (although a year ago I had to turn off a G5 PM because another machine took over which drew less energy, could turn it on though if I wanted) ... everything accessible from just a terminal and I am proud of it. The fact that Macs used to have a longer lifespan than other computers is an important aspect for me. To me this is important, not only because I like to produce as less waste as possible and don't like to buy a new computer every second year just because I can.
When my tools become commodities and stop to be tools I am not at ease.
re: disappear - except that they are starting with a heck of a lot of cash and brand-loyalty. It's going to take them a while to run through that, but they eventually will if, as you say, they don't continue to put the product and UX first.
Well said. That is all I care about on my tools and with Apple. Most of all: durability, UNIX core, terminal, ease of use, compatibility with open standards! (ok plus the ability to run Autocad, Revit, virtual machines for structural analysis software)
Apple does its job. I do mine and give feedback about the things I care.
SEJU said: What I am still missing is the ESC key in all Autodesk programmes and of cause the function keys as short cuts in the same place, but the last one could be solved by Autodesk in software.
... But this machine had more service calls than most of my other machines combined and I work with Macs exclusively since the mid 90s!!! ...
re: disappear - except that they are starting with a heck of a lot of cash and brand-loyalty. It's going to take them a while to run through that, but they eventually will if, as you say, they don't continue to put the product and UX first.
Well said. That is all I care about on my tools and with Apple. Most of all: durability, UNIX core, terminal, ease of use, compatibility with open standards! (ok plus the ability to run Autocad, Revit, virtual machines for structural analysis software)
Apple does its job. I do mine and give feedback about the things I care.
Yes, the esc key is quite important for a lot of things. It's the universal 'get me outta this' key, and many apps use it for that. I can't imagine having to deal with that on the Touch Bar. Besides what I've heard about accidentally brushing it while typing numbers, the 'esc' key thing is a big deal for me too.
Yes, Apple was always a work-flow secret weapon, but as it becomes less so, the other side of the fence becomes more attractive in terms of flexibility. I also used to do quite a bit of CAD work and 3D. Have you heard of Vellum Cobalt, Concepts Unlimited, or Shark CAD (same product, different names over the decades)? Or, Electric Image Animation System? I worked with a guy on some projects with AutoCAD/3DSMax though, and used to support AutoCAD users from an IT perspective. Love that industry!
So why not move the speaker grilles above the touchscreen so that it can be wide enough for properly-sized buttons?
The mock-up looks to be a 4th gen MBP15 with a photoshop of a Touch Bar extending all the way down to near the bottom edge of the laptop. So, it is 10.75” wide with properly sized buttons and 0.75” key spacing. Basically looks like the standard 3rd gen MBP keyboard layout in all of its laptops and external keyboards from 2012 to 2017, at least.
If this input display is 10.75” wide by 8” deep, it will be a 13.4” 4:3 display. Bigger than the iPad Pro 12.9”. I definitely want to see this type of laptop come to market. An ultimate college education laptop. A laptop for creative and engineering markets.
So why not move the speaker grilles above the touchscreen so that it can be wide enough for properly-sized buttons?
The mock-up looks to be a 4th gen MBP15 with a photoshop of a Touch Bar extending all the way down to near the bottom edge of the laptop. So, it is 10.75” wide with properly sized buttons and 0.75” key spacing. Basically looks like the standard 3rd gen MBP keyboard layout in all of its laptops and external keyboards from 2012 to 2017, at least.
If this input display is 10.75” wide by 8” deep, it will be a 13.4” 4:3 display. Bigger than the iPad Pro 12.9”. I definitely want to see this type of laptop come to market. An ultimate college education laptop. A laptop for creative and engineering markets.
I'd give them $400-500 for that, just like I would for an iPad. It would be useless as a laptop, though. The whole point of a laptop is a different UI context, for which a real keyboard and trackpad are far superior. If that really is what they are working on... time to sell your stock!
So why not move the speaker grilles above the touchscreen so that it can be wide enough for properly-sized buttons?
The mock-up looks to be a 4th gen MBP15 with a photoshop of a Touch Bar extending all the way down to near the bottom edge of the laptop. So, it is 10.75” wide with properly sized buttons and 0.75” key spacing. Basically looks like the standard 3rd gen MBP keyboard layout in all of its laptops and external keyboards from 2012 to 2017, at least.
If this input display is 10.75” wide by 8” deep, it will be a 13.4” 4:3 display. Bigger than the iPad Pro 12.9”. I definitely want to see this type of laptop come to market. An ultimate college education laptop. A laptop for creative and engineering markets.
I'd give them $400-500 for that, just like I would for an iPad. It would be useless as a laptop, though. The whole point of a laptop is a different UI context, for which a real keyboard and trackpad are far superior. If that really is what they are working on... time to sell your stock!
Au contraire, it’s precisely the context it should be. Think of it as an input device on a flat surface controlling what’s going on in the vertical display.
As an input device, it can have keyboard, trackpad, stylus, and multitouch UI inputs in the right ergonomic orientation, a flat surface where the user can rest their arms. It can have infinitely variable and user customizable keyboard designs. A keyboard specialized for programming? Easy to do and easier for people to learn. Running MS Windows? A Windows keyboard is used. Running a game? A custom game control UI can be used.
With a Pencil, I can take notes on it without doing origami. It’s just a matter of picking up a Pencil and writing much like it is on an iPad. Want to have piano keys? Easy. Multitouch sliders and dials? Easy. Apple has definitely thought about doing this, but it’s a matter of costs, form factor and price. I don’t think Apple can do it for less than $2k. But if the CPU was cheaper, more power efficient like Apple’s ARM CPUs, and the displays more power efficient, it makes you think the timing for such a device is not far away. Two iPad Pros on top of each other is thinner than the 4th gen MBP, so I think the hardware for it is basically available.
It would be a great device for education, engineering and creative markets.
Could the failure rate be because people "mash" the keys harder since the travel time/length/force is less? But I doubt Apple could figure that out unless they had some kind of accelerometer on each key (didn't one of the patent diagrams detail some kind of light-travel-time based sensor?)
I wonder if they could figure out a (reasonably priced..) mechanism that would provide a dynamic resistance as a key is pushed down, to provide a convincing *illusion* of increased travel time/distance? If they wanted to make a "virtual keyboard" MacBook like the concept that has been making the rounds, I'm guessing that would be one of the deal-breakers. That type of "sensation creation" might be the same thing that Taptic does, except it would have to be on a "per-key basis". My guess is you'd need at least 6 independent taptic "zones" to do that.
The other thing that I think would be necessary, and would probably be *much* harder would be to (somehow) create the illusion of being able to tell where the *edges* of the keys are by touch. A feature of all QWERTY keyboards I've ever used is the little raised bumps on the F and J keys to be able to locate them without looking. My guess is that such "edge tactile-proprioception" is a lot more important than might be thought. (But then, people type on ipad keyboards, which don't have that.)
fastasleep said: Still funny to me that people say this stuff with authority, as if they know what Jobs would’ve actually done in situation x. What a disservice to him. ... Look, I know you have a hard time imagining a future of computing that looks different from your own use case, or even a different definition of “professional” that doesn’t involve a big clicky keyboard, but Apple can. Look at all the input/keyboard patents on Patently Apple going back ten years and the tea leaves aren’t that hard to read. The technology isn’t where it needs to be yet to replace the traditional keyboard, but you can see the steps they’ve taken and continue to take. The future is coming whether you like it or not; you should give it a chance.
Jobs actually cared about computers... particularly the professional models. While I can't know exactly how it would have gone, I'm pretty confident I wouldn't be far off.
And, this has nothing to do with future-tech imagination. I'm pretty sure professionals of the future will need to get information into their computers, too. Unless you're imagining some kind of virtual keys with taptic, force-fields, and tractor-beams, I think we'll be sticking with real keyboards for quite a long time.
Yes, that's more or less what I'm imagining, minus the tractor-beams, and so is Apple. The patents outline dynamic virtual control surfaces using haptic, air, raised surfaces, and similar types of feedback in tandem sensors/cameras that detect finger placement/movement and gestures. It's all there, going back nearly a decade. Just because it won't necessarily be here soon doesn't mean it's not coming.
This is from 2006:
And here's some links I dug up on a previous thread last year:
Yep, me too. There have been a lot of patents involving virtual keyboards/touch input areas/haptic or air feedback/etc. The Touch Bar in tandem with shallower key travel and the enlarged Trackpad (which doesn't seem to serve any purpose other than working to keep taking over more real estate with the eventual goal to expand function) definitely look like the baby steps in that direction.
So again — tell me what Steve Jobs Would Do™ considering most of this is from when he was still alive.
fastasleep said: Uhh...bullshit. As the owner of a Series 1, and living with the owner of my previous Series 0, neither of these assertions are true. Mine went on the charger last night with 40% charge after all-day use. My 0 used to be at 30% with watchOS 1 back at the beginning, and I used it all the time.
What do you do with it?
What do you mean? I use it for many different things. Triaging notifications, quick replies to communication, Apple Pay at contactless payment terminals, unlocking my Mac, quick access to time/weather/next up on calendar, hands-free Siri for everything from adding geofenced reminders to setting timers to adding/removing items from my shopping list in Reminders, activity tracking/reminders, hailing a Lyft, Shazam, remote control of Music or TuneIn Radio on my phone, answering the occasional phone call including one over wifi when my iPhone was in a Lyft driver's car, pinging my iPhone when I can't find it... probably a few other things I can't think of right now? Is that good enough to be "useful"?
fastasleep said: Agreed. The people who say it’s useless obviously haven’t used one. Same thing I see re VR all the time.
Let me guess, you love your 3D TV, too?
I never had or wanted one of those. Have you even used VR before?
Hopefully, that pushes Apple into offering more traditional laptops that are:
- More repairable and upgradeable (Where harddrives, memory and batteries can be EASILY swapped out)
- Have full function keyboards with better travel and feel (and number pads on the 15 & 17 inch models) - A full range of ports
- "Softer" screens better adapted to text than to pictures.
- Magsafe power
LOL yes this will totally happen after they invent a time machine and you can go back however many decades that takes to get back to your dream machine.
tht said: Au contraire, it’s precisely the context it should be. Think of it as an input device on a flat surface controlling what’s going on in the vertical display.
As an input device, it can have keyboard, trackpad, stylus, and multitouch UI inputs in the right ergonomic orientation, a flat surface where the user can rest their arms. It can have infinitely variable and user customizable keyboard designs. A keyboard specialized for programming? Easy to do and easier for people to learn. Running MS Windows? A Windows keyboard is used. Running a game? A custom game control UI can be used.
With a Pencil, I can take notes on it without doing origami. It’s just a matter of picking up a Pencil and writing much like it is on an iPad. Want to have piano keys? Easy. Multitouch sliders and dials? Easy. Apple has definitely thought about doing this, but it’s a matter of costs, form factor and price. I don’t think Apple can do it for less than $2k. But if the CPU was cheaper, more power efficient like Apple’s ARM CPUs, and the displays more power efficient, it makes you think the timing for such a device is not far away. Two iPad Pros on top of each other is thinner than the 4th gen MBP, so I think the hardware for it is basically available.
It would be a great device for education, engineering and creative markets.
Except the actual efficiency of all that multi-varied input would be next to zero for the most meaningful stuff. There's a reason keyboard layout and even key-spacing and feel are so important to people.
jswitte01 said: But then, people type on ipad keyboards, which don't have that.
At dramatically reduced input efficiency. It isn't so much that it wouldn't work or couldn't be done... but do we want it to be done?
fastasleep said: Yes, that's more or less what I'm imagining, minus the tractor-beams, and so is Apple. The patents outline ... So again — tell me what Steve Jobs Would Do™ considering most of this is from when he was still alive.
They patent almost every idea or concept though. But, yes, I think there are some at Apple pushing in that direction. I'm just more a realist than sci-fi, so I'm doubting it will really be that good, at least for those for whom input efficiency is important. For others, I suppose the flexibility is important. We've already got iPads that do this.
fastasleep said: What do you mean? I use it for many different things. Triaging notifications, quick replies to communication, Apple Pay at contactless payment terminals, unlocking my Mac, quick access to time/weather/next up on calendar, hands-free Siri for everything from adding geofenced reminders to setting timers to adding/removing items from my shopping list in Reminders, activity tracking/reminders, hailing a Lyft, Shazam, remote control of Music or TuneIn Radio on my phone, answering the occasional phone call including one over wifi when my iPhone was in a Lyft driver's car, pinging my iPhone when I can't find it... probably a few other things I can't think of right now? Is that good enough to be "useful"?
Yea, I get *some* of that. ApplePay might be nice (if I ever get around to trying it), or checking time/weather/next calendar event. But, pulling out my phone isn't so hard as I'd imagine fighting with a tiny-screen would be to accomplish most of that. Emergency cellular contact (w/o phone), IMO, is finally something that makes the Watch useful. I'd just be frustrated with most of the above list.
fastasleep said: I never had or wanted one of those. Have you even used VR before?
Not anything "high-end" just PS4. It, like 3D TV, seems mostly a novelty, at least in current incarnations. I can see some uses for it, though with my being prone to motion-sickness and such, I don't think it is something I'll ever like. I see more use to AR if they ever crack the glasses-overlay type AR well enough. But I think we're still many years away on that.
Comments
Anyway, this is where Apple is heading:
And I’m hoping that when they arrive, they draw bigger cursor keys.
It is not only Jobs who cared about the professional models. I am convinced that all people from the hardware department care about the professional models. In order to design their products they have to use CAD/CAM, visualisation, simulations. These programmes do not run on an iPAD. When you work on a specific detail it is not enough to move a poly line, edit a datapoint, you work whole day on it and the most efficient interface is still a keyboard a mouse and a display!!!
Programmers might have other priorities and anyway concentrate on the soft part, but the hardware design team surely is interested in Apple producing pro machines, since they are the first who will have to work on them whole day!!!
It is one thing to be on a construction side or in a prototype laboratory and edit a wrong dataset, correct a small mistake, take some measurements with a laser etc., here an iPad is enough and the fact that it is sealed is even an advantage. But as soon as you have to work you need another setting. Try to model a skyscraper, a bridge, a circuit or the casing of a MBP on a screen the size of an iPad, with your thumb and you will change profession.
The more you rely on a product, the more you care about it. The PR and business administration department is a different matter, but historically they knew what design is worth. They learned everything from Olivetti anyway! Even the circular campus has been taken from Gabetti e Isola's project for IVREA.
The moment they forget their DNA, the importance of a well designed project, of the coherence necessary to carry it out, they will disappear just like, unfortunately, Olivetti did.
- A full range of ports
But Apple asks a premium, their machines cost a lot. It is one thing as long as they are solid, repairable, etc. If they start to just cost a lot and brake down easily, it makes no sense to pay that much money. I would leave Apple to those who need status symbols.
I might be ok with “it just works”. I am not ok with “it brakes down just like that”.
Exactly. I sometimes wonder what these all-on-iOS people actually do with computers. I actually tried it for about 1.5 years, at least for mobile use. At the time I was doing mostly writing, research, and meeting notes. There were some definite advantages (small, light-weight, less distraction, more social acceptability in meetings, etc.), but a whole lot of workflow and efficiency downsides. Any heavier type use than that, and it just magnifies. I gave up and when back to a laptop when my usage needs increased.
re: disappear - except that they are starting with a heck of a lot of cash and brand-loyalty. It's going to take them a while to run through that, but they eventually will if, as you say, they don't continue to put the product and UX first.
Yes. The argument here isn't that they shouldn't have made the current incarnation of the MBP. It's that they shouldn't have *ONLY* made such a narrow use-case band for the whole lineup. If they added a 15" that was a bit thicker/bigger and included something more like the previous gen keyboard, a few more ports, possibly a bigger battery and the controller to put in more RAM, adequate cooling, etc. then the higher-end pros would have had an option and there would be less complaining.
No, I don't think I'm saying anything of the sort. But cgWerks has been around around long enough to recognize when Apple either switches priorities, or screws up enough such that it looks like they have.
Precisely... which is why many of us are so upset. I'm not sure why all these Apple-can-do-no-wrong types are so insistent that Apple should make one device and everyone should be happy with it.
For example, what is holding back Apple from taking product designs they already have and putting newer components in?
Or, can these people seriously make an argument for why a company as big as Apple (where single products are bigger than most other companies) can't seem to update certain product lines? I know they had an insane growth period to deal with, but at some point, the incompetence thesis starts to wear a bit thin, and we start imagining there is some actual bigger plan in play (which many of us don't like).
As long as Tim is on the same page as Steve was in regards to product and UX being job # 1, I'm fine with his faults/failures. The problem is, as I said above, that at some point, I can't believe it is all faults and failures causing what I'm seeing.
To me the speaker grilles are mostly cosmetic anyway. The sound gets driven out of the vents on the bottom, bounces on the surface the MBP is placed on. This is an interesting construction. We used to assemble our speakers when I was in high school and music is still one of my hobbies. I appreciate the fact that Apple takes care of the audio part very much. It was one of the first things that stroke me with this machine: the clear separation and wide sound image. When it arrived I spend an hour with my head above the keyboard trying to just hear the music I was playing, to hear one instrument coming from left and the other from right... but a great part of it is not coming out of the speaker grill ...
Again, I really like this generation. I appreciate the machine. I like the Touch Bar, maybe I just adapted, but in my usage scenario it is able to make things easier. What I am still missing is the ESC key in all Autodesk programmes and of cause the function keys as short cuts in the same place, but the last one could be solved by Autodesk in software. In Adobe the Touch Bar already simplifies my workflow. I am perfectly fine with USB-C/TB3 even with USB-C/TB3 only!
But this machine had more service calls than most of my other machines combined and I work with Macs exclusively since the mid 90s!!! Keyboard, logic board twice, display. After 18 months over 10 trips to the genius bar? This machine gives more problems than my 2011 after its GPU/logic board broke down! And no I do not take my MBP to construction side or eat on it! I have an iPad for that ;0) I mean when I take my machines to the Genius Bar even after more than 5 years they mark down the cosmetic condition and always put "no apparent usage signs" or let us say "as new", that is how I tread my tools.
Do we want to make a test? If I detach the audiointerface (Pioneer DJM 900 NXS2) from this 2016 MBP right now the Touch Bar will go blank immediately and I will have to restart the machine. This did never happen with other generations. I am still not sure if this depends from the hardware architecture or is driver, firmware related, ... I opened a dev bug report the day I received the machine. I repeat the day I received the machine! Some months ago the issue got closed, has it been solved? No.
In case anyone could test this on a 2017, please let me know! Although, since the logic board got exchanged twice I guess it is "normal" at least for the 2016 generation.
For over 25 years I always bought top of the line, maxed out and used it. After I went on to a new machine the old one took over another task in the house. We still have Powerbooks around running certain things (although a year ago I had to turn off a G5 PM because another machine took over which drew less energy, could turn it on though if I wanted) ... everything accessible from just a terminal and I am proud of it. The fact that Macs used to have a longer lifespan than other computers is an important aspect for me. To me this is important, not only because I like to produce as less waste as possible and don't like to buy a new computer every second year just because I can.
When my tools become commodities and stop to be tools I am not at ease.
Well said. That is all I care about on my tools and with Apple. Most of all: durability, UNIX core, terminal, ease of use, compatibility with open standards! (ok plus the ability to run Autocad, Revit, virtual machines for structural analysis software)
Apple does its job. I do mine and give feedback about the things I care.
Yes, Apple was always a work-flow secret weapon, but as it becomes less so, the other side of the fence becomes more attractive in terms of flexibility. I also used to do quite a bit of CAD work and 3D. Have you heard of Vellum Cobalt, Concepts Unlimited, or Shark CAD (same product, different names over the decades)? Or, Electric Image Animation System? I worked with a guy on some projects with AutoCAD/3DSMax though, and used to support AutoCAD users from an IT perspective. Love that industry!
The mock-up looks to be a 4th gen MBP15 with a photoshop of a Touch Bar extending all the way down to near the bottom edge of the laptop. So, it is 10.75” wide with properly sized buttons and 0.75” key spacing. Basically looks like the standard 3rd gen MBP keyboard layout in all of its laptops and external keyboards from 2012 to 2017, at least.
If this input display is 10.75” wide by 8” deep, it will be a 13.4” 4:3 display. Bigger than the iPad Pro 12.9”. I definitely want to see this type of laptop come to market. An ultimate college education laptop. A laptop for creative and engineering markets.
The whole point of a laptop is a different UI context, for which a real keyboard and trackpad are far superior.
If that really is what they are working on... time to sell your stock!
Au contraire, it’s precisely the context it should be. Think of it as an input device on a flat surface controlling what’s going on in the vertical display.
As an input device, it can have keyboard, trackpad, stylus, and multitouch UI inputs in the right ergonomic orientation, a flat surface where the user can rest their arms. It can have infinitely variable and user customizable keyboard designs. A keyboard specialized for programming? Easy to do and easier for people to learn. Running MS Windows? A Windows keyboard is used. Running a game? A custom game control UI can be used.
With a Pencil, I can take notes on it without doing origami. It’s just a matter of picking up a Pencil and writing much like it is on an iPad. Want to have piano keys? Easy. Multitouch sliders and dials? Easy. Apple has definitely thought about doing this, but it’s a matter of costs, form factor and price. I don’t think Apple can do it for less than $2k. But if the CPU was cheaper, more power efficient like Apple’s ARM CPUs, and the displays more power efficient, it makes you think the timing for such a device is not far away. Two iPad Pros on top of each other is thinner than the 4th gen MBP, so I think the hardware for it is basically available.
It would be a great device for education, engineering and creative markets.
This is from 2006:
And here's some links I dug up on a previous thread last year:
Yep, me too. There have been a lot of patents involving virtual keyboards/touch input areas/haptic or air feedback/etc. The Touch Bar in tandem with shallower key travel and the enlarged Trackpad (which doesn't seem to serve any purpose other than working to keep taking over more real estate with the eventual goal to expand function) definitely look like the baby steps in that direction.
http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2017/05/apple-continues-to-advance-a-hybrid-notebook-with-a-reconfigurable-surface-supporting-a-virtual-keyboard-more.html
http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2011/02/apple-talks-up-smart-bezels-live-reconfigurable-macbooks.html
and even earlier...
http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2011/07/apple-invents-new-flat-keyless-keyboard-for-desktops-more.html
http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2011/05/apple-explores-keyboards-using-an-advanced-air-feedback-system.html
http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2011/01/apple-pushes-research-into-motion-keyboards-for-macbooks.html
http://appleinsider.com/articles/12/09/06/apple_touch_typing_tech_could_lead_to_backside_input_for_tablets
So again — tell me what Steve Jobs Would Do™ considering most of this is from when he was still alive.
What do you mean? I use it for many different things. Triaging notifications, quick replies to communication, Apple Pay at contactless payment terminals, unlocking my Mac, quick access to time/weather/next up on calendar, hands-free Siri for everything from adding geofenced reminders to setting timers to adding/removing items from my shopping list in Reminders, activity tracking/reminders, hailing a Lyft, Shazam, remote control of Music or TuneIn Radio on my phone, answering the occasional phone call including one over wifi when my iPhone was in a Lyft driver's car, pinging my iPhone when I can't find it... probably a few other things I can't think of right now? Is that good enough to be "useful"? I never had or wanted one of those. Have you even used VR before?
At dramatically reduced input efficiency. It isn't so much that it wouldn't work or couldn't be done... but do we want it to be done?
They patent almost every idea or concept though. But, yes, I think there are some at Apple pushing in that direction. I'm just more a realist than sci-fi, so I'm doubting it will really be that good, at least for those for whom input efficiency is important. For others, I suppose the flexibility is important. We've already got iPads that do this.
Yea, I get *some* of that. ApplePay might be nice (if I ever get around to trying it), or checking time/weather/next calendar event. But, pulling out my phone isn't so hard as I'd imagine fighting with a tiny-screen would be to accomplish most of that. Emergency cellular contact (w/o phone), IMO, is finally something that makes the Watch useful. I'd just be frustrated with most of the above list.
Not anything "high-end" just PS4. It, like 3D TV, seems mostly a novelty, at least in current incarnations. I can see some uses for it, though with my being prone to motion-sickness and such, I don't think it is something I'll ever like. I see more use to AR if they ever crack the glasses-overlay type AR well enough. But I think we're still many years away on that.