Apple's larger spread seems to be finding takers at every entry point. 25% went to SE, iPhone 6 and iPhone 6s. That's a lot of demand for cheaper options as well as the higher options. The larger spread may be paying off.
Huawei up over 30% and without including P20 series phones or next week's Honor 10 launch. They look good for the current quarter.
More worrying are the sharp drops in three of Apple's major European markets.
Yet the iPhone X was "the best-shipping smartphone in the region".
Your concern troll is showing.
Going to have another day of pushing FUD to make Huawei look good?
Oh no, he wasn't 100% overpraising Apple, he must be a troll. Trolling goes both ways, incessant and blind praise of Apple is as much trolling as is constant bashing. By that metric, you're a troll.
I think iPhones are still too expensive. Everyone I've spoken to about the X says it's way too expensive, and people already think the non-flagships are pretty steep. I have plenty Apple-toting friends, and I am a self-confessed fanboy. But even I can see Apple gear really is getting very expensive. Cook's Apple seems to be all about raising prices, I don't know any product that's gone down in price in Cook's reign. The increasing service revenue should be offsetting the phone prices, not adding to them. Unfortunately this is reminiscent of the early 90's Apple; ballooning SKU numbers, not giving people what they want, software and hardware bugs creeping in whilst prices edge up. Apple's obviously in a much better position now, but even so. I don't want history to repeat itself.
You need to follow his comments over time here at AI. He is a shill for Huawei; proven by his many pro Huawei posts. That is a fact.
He spreads FUD about Apple. That is also a fact. He did so today with his first comment, "worrisome" which had no basis in fact. I believe that he does that because his team hasn't reached Apple's success. His metric is unit sales. Please note that Huawei's growth of 38 percent in unit sales has added a mere 1.7% in revenue gains. Is that in any way a quantifiable success? Apple's slight dip in unit sales is likely driven by an increase in ASP. Which is the better business model?
Am I blindly praising Apple, as you have now stated, and am I a troll for responding to Avon b7's bullshit? Perhaps you should be a bit more discerning in what you are reading and posting. My comments stand on their own, and you are free to continue to check my history if you think that I am a troll.
Huawei's growth of 38 percent in unit sales has added a mere 1.7% in revenue gains
This is just another sign of dumping by a Chinese company as has been shown many times before.
Now I am glad the U.S. kept Huawei.
I am so tired of reading this Huawei crap by Avon all the time. Why did Golden State win the 2017? Huawei increased it marketshare. Why did the French Revolution take place - Huawei was not available in France at the time. I feel like I just stuck in HuaweiInsider. Quite opposite of encouraging me to ever look at Huawei if it showed up in the US, I'm quite disposed against it. TrollFail.
That is exactly the kind of comment that needs correcting so here we go yet again:
Apple's business is still dominated by mobile.
It has a yearly release cycle that obviously leads to a yearly spike in performance. People hold off before a refresh, then buy en mass when it happens. Looking at the results from that spike, just one quarter (or the one immediately after it) provides a somewhat distorted view.
Do you agree with that? You should.
It is far more reliable to gauge performance YoY (full years). You should agree with that too.
So here is Huawei's audited results summary direct from the horse's mouth (my bold):
"Shenzhen, China, March 30, 2018] Huawei released its audited financial results for 2017, reporting solid business growth. The company's total annual revenue was CNY603.6 billion (US$92.5 billion based on year-end exchange rates), anincreaseof15.7% over 2016 ."Net profits were CNY47.5 billion (US$7.3 billion), anincreaseof28.1% year-on-year."
Now, the 1.7% figure comes from a research estimate for one quarter in one region and the report made it crystal clear that it doesn't include the P20 Series models. Models that appear to be breaking records.
And from that, you jump in feet first with your 'dumping' claim. You made a mistake. I can live with that but I would like to point out that in a previous post I went out of my way to point out that Huawei increased prices (yes, iniEurope too) across many models by around 100€ last year. They have also made a concerted effort to move into the premium segment. 'Dumping' should be the last thing on your mind.
Your comment on 'Huaweiinsider' is also completely incorrect. Appleinnsider dedicates far more articles to Samsung and Google than any of my contributions to threads here.
For starters, I do not even participate in the vast majority of threads here. Your argument virtually dies right there but on top of that, there is a lot of pure misinformation that appears in the forums that I just let go.
However, there needs to be some balance in things so readers don't get mislead.
Hence this post that was only necessary because you put 'dumping' into the soup.
I support competition. Apple biting into Samsung, Huawei biting into Apple and Xiaomi biting into Huawei etc.
I don't care if sales, revenues or profits take a hit. I care about what reaches the consumer and having choice. There is a lot of quality out there. Far more than ever before. There is crap too, I don't deny it but has that ever not been the case?
Almost all Android OEMs (including the likes of Xiaomi who are expected to be "cheap") have increased prices across the board in the last 2 years. So I agree with you that the "dumping" comments are ignorant of the ground reality. This increased prices across the board could be the driver behind the slowing down of the smartphone market overall.
Uhm, the "dumping" comment was with regard to the fact that Huawei increased its sales in the Eurozone 38% with only a 1.7% revenue increase. Now that data may not be true, but it is the case that acquisition or "buying" marketshare would have the same result. So even if individual products increase in price, it wouldn't necessarily align with either a higher ASP, more revenue, or more profits, due to promotions and incentives.
I would acknowledge that Apple's primary revenue generator is iPhone, now at about 60% of revenue. but it is also the case that Avon b7 is fine with adding all of Huawei's revenue and profit for 2017 as if it was entirely smartphones, which it decidedly isn't. I have stated that Apple's average iPhone age is now nearly 4 years, yet the user base has continued to grow, as has subscriptions and the ecosystem. So even if Apple's iPhone sales have "flattened", Apple's ASP has provided increased YOY iPhone revenue, and, as I have posted, will have again at the end of this quarter, with and estimated 15% revenue increase, driven, again, by Apple's current lineup and iPhone's 7 and 7 plus. Very little comparative revenue is generated by the either the iPhone 6 or the SE, which in the Eurozone, account for 25% of unit sales. That's how ASP works.
Avon b7 wants to create the impression that Huawei is very competitive in the smartphone market with Apple, but as I have stated many a time, Android OS devices don't actually compete directly with Apple's iPhone. This is a fundamental flaw in his analysis.
More so, Avon b7's focus on Huawei distorts the actual competition, which is primarily Samsung and other large Chinese device makers like Oppo, Vivo, and Xiaomi. I have never stated that Huawei isn't growing it's units sales, nor that it isn't moving its ASP up. However, it's ASP is much lower than Samsung's, which is about a third of Apple's, so I'm not inclined to give them peer status with Apple. I suspect this is an issue with Avon b7.
The last thing is that Avon b7 is in fact incorrect wrt Apple's product releases. Apple does not need to release other than its yearly schedule. There isn't any evidence that iPhone buyers are craving faster release of features. If anything, the yearly cycle provides a stability to the market and has the effect of maintaining the value of Apple devices in the secondary market of used iPhones. These iPhones, plus Apple refurbished models, are a gateway for many new iOS users, again, note that Apple's user base continues to expand; the last data from Apple was an expansion from a billion users to 1.3 billion in two years.
While I agree with most of your points (mostly related to Apple and their business model etc), I disagree with some of the points particularly related to Huawei. Huawei is 4th largest smartphone maker worldwide if we consider BBK (Oppo + Vivo + OnePlus) as a single entity. If we consider them as separate entities which is how they want to be identified, Huawei is the 3rd largest smartphone maker, right behind Apple and Samsung in terms of market share and revenue. Xiaomi is behind Huawei in both market share and revenue share, though they were growing much faster last year and can overtake Huawei IF they maintain that momentum (extremely hard to pull it off while constantly increasing prices, I would say). And I don't think Huawei's ASP is way below Samsung's. They both have similar spread (from $100 phones to $1000+ phones) with similar market share. So I won't be surprised if their phone's ASP is close to that of Samsung. So I can understand why Avon's talking more about Huawei as equal to Samsung.
Apple's product releases - I agree with you. There is no strong evidence that they need to change it (like say - don't release the large LCD model in Sep-2018, rather release it in Mar-2019, to keep the interest throughout the year). I guess they would have changed it already, if required.
Regarding iOS installed base, did we hear from Apple/Tim Cook recently? When was the last time we got this data from Apple? I may have missed that part if it was revealed recently. Can you please share the details?
Apple's larger spread seems to be finding takers at every entry point. 25% went to SE, iPhone 6 and iPhone 6s. That's a lot of demand for cheaper options as well as the higher options. The larger spread may be paying off.
Huawei up over 30% and without including P20 series phones or next week's Honor 10 launch. They look good for the current quarter.
More worrying are the sharp drops in three of Apple's major European markets.
Yet the iPhone X was "the best-shipping smartphone in the region".
Your concern troll is showing.
Going to have another day of pushing FUD to make Huawei look good?
Oh no, he wasn't 100% overpraising Apple, he must be a troll. Trolling goes both ways, incessant and blind praise of Apple is as much trolling as is constant bashing. By that metric, you're a troll.
I think iPhones are still too expensive. Everyone I've spoken to about the X says it's way too expensive, and people already think the non-flagships are pretty steep. I have plenty Apple-toting friends, and I am a self-confessed fanboy. But even I can see Apple gear really is getting very expensive. Cook's Apple seems to be all about raising prices, I don't know any product that's gone down in price in Cook's reign. The increasing service revenue should be offsetting the phone prices, not adding to them. Unfortunately this is reminiscent of the early 90's Apple; ballooning SKU numbers, not giving people what they want, software and hardware bugs creeping in whilst prices edge up. Apple's obviously in a much better position now, but even so. I don't want history to repeat itself.
You need to follow his comments over time here at AI. He is a shill for Huawei; proven by his many pro Huawei posts. That is a fact.
He spreads FUD about Apple. That is also a fact. He did so today with his first comment, "worrisome" which had no basis in fact. I believe that he does that because his team hasn't reached Apple's success. His metric is unit sales. Please note that Huawei's growth of 38 percent in unit sales has added a mere 1.7% in revenue gains. Is that in any way a quantifiable success? Apple's slight dip in unit sales is likely driven by an increase in ASP. Which is the better business model?
Am I blindly praising Apple, as you have now stated, and am I a troll for responding to Avon b7's bullshit? Perhaps you should be a bit more discerning in what you are reading and posting. My comments stand on their own, and you are free to continue to check my history if you think that I am a troll.
Huawei's growth of 38 percent in unit sales has added a mere 1.7% in revenue gains
This is just another sign of dumping by a Chinese company as has been shown many times before.
Now I am glad the U.S. kept Huawei.
I am so tired of reading this Huawei crap by Avon all the time. Why did Golden State win the 2017? Huawei increased it marketshare. Why did the French Revolution take place - Huawei was not available in France at the time. I feel like I just stuck in HuaweiInsider. Quite opposite of encouraging me to ever look at Huawei if it showed up in the US, I'm quite disposed against it. TrollFail.
That is exactly the kind of comment that needs correcting so here we go yet again:
Apple's business is still dominated by mobile.
It has a yearly release cycle that obviously leads to a yearly spike in performance. People hold off before a refresh, then buy en mass when it happens. Looking at the results from that spike, just one quarter (or the one immediately after it) provides a somewhat distorted view.
Do you agree with that? You should.
It is far more reliable to gauge performance YoY (full years). You should agree with that too.
So here is Huawei's audited results summary direct from the horse's mouth (my bold):
"Shenzhen, China, March 30, 2018] Huawei released its audited financial results for 2017, reporting solid business growth. The company's total annual revenue was CNY603.6 billion (US$92.5 billion based on year-end exchange rates), anincreaseof15.7% over 2016 ."Net profits were CNY47.5 billion (US$7.3 billion), anincreaseof28.1% year-on-year."
Now, the 1.7% figure comes from a research estimate for one quarter in one region and the report made it crystal clear that it doesn't include the P20 Series models. Models that appear to be breaking records.
And from that, you jump in feet first with your 'dumping' claim. You made a mistake. I can live with that but I would like to point out that in a previous post I went out of my way to point out that Huawei increased prices (yes, iniEurope too) across many models by around 100€ last year. They have also made a concerted effort to move into the premium segment. 'Dumping' should be the last thing on your mind.
Your comment on 'Huaweiinsider' is also completely incorrect. Appleinnsider dedicates far more articles to Samsung and Google than any of my contributions to threads here.
For starters, I do not even participate in the vast majority of threads here. Your argument virtually dies right there but on top of that, there is a lot of pure misinformation that appears in the forums that I just let go.
However, there needs to be some balance in things so readers don't get mislead.
Hence this post that was only necessary because you put 'dumping' into the soup.
I support competition. Apple biting into Samsung, Huawei biting into Apple and Xiaomi biting into Huawei etc.
I don't care if sales, revenues or profits take a hit. I care about what reaches the consumer and having choice. There is a lot of quality out there. Far more than ever before. There is crap too, I don't deny it but has that ever not been the case?
Almost all Android OEMs (including the likes of Xiaomi who are expected to be "cheap") have increased prices across the board in the last 2 years. So I agree with you that the "dumping" comments are ignorant of the ground reality. This increased prices across the board could be the driver behind the slowing down of the smartphone market overall.
Uhm, the "dumping" comment was with regard to the fact that Huawei increased its sales in the Eurozone 38% with only a 1.7% revenue increase. Now that data may not be true, but it is the case that acquisition or "buying" marketshare would have the same result. So even if individual products increase in price, it wouldn't necessarily align with either a higher ASP, more revenue, or more profits, due to promotions and incentives.
I would acknowledge that Apple's primary revenue generator is iPhone, now at about 60% of revenue. but it is also the case that Avon b7 is fine with adding all of Huawei's revenue and profit for 2017 as if it was entirely smartphones, which it decidedly isn't. I have stated that Apple's average iPhone age is now nearly 4 years, yet the user base has continued to grow, as has subscriptions and the ecosystem. So even if Apple's iPhone sales have "flattened", Apple's ASP has provided increased YOY iPhone revenue, and, as I have posted, will have again at the end of this quarter, with and estimated 15% revenue increase, driven, again, by Apple's current lineup and iPhone's 7 and 7 plus. Very little comparative revenue is generated by the either the iPhone 6 or the SE, which in the Eurozone, account for 25% of unit sales. That's how ASP works.
Avon b7 wants to create the impression that Huawei is very competitive in the smartphone market with Apple, but as I have stated many a time, Android OS devices don't actually compete directly with Apple's iPhone. This is a fundamental flaw in his analysis.
More so, Avon b7's focus on Huawei distorts the actual competition, which is primarily Samsung and other large Chinese device makers like Oppo, Vivo, and Xiaomi. I have never stated that Huawei isn't growing it's units sales, nor that it isn't moving its ASP up. However, it's ASP is much lower than Samsung's, which is about a third of Apple's, so I'm not inclined to give them peer status with Apple. I suspect this is an issue with Avon b7.
The last thing is that Avon b7 is in fact incorrect wrt Apple's product releases. Apple does not need to release other than its yearly schedule. There isn't any evidence that iPhone buyers are craving faster release of features. If anything, the yearly cycle provides a stability to the market and has the effect of maintaining the value of Apple devices in the secondary market of used iPhones. These iPhones, plus Apple refurbished models, are a gateway for many new iOS users, again, note that Apple's user base continues to expand; the last data from Apple was an expansion from a billion users to 1.3 billion in two years.
While I agree with most of your points (mostly related to Apple and their business model etc), I disagree with some of the points particularly related to Huawei. Huawei is 4th largest smartphone maker worldwide if we consider BBK (Oppo + Vivo + OnePlus) as a single entity. If we consider them as separate entities which is how they want to be identified, Huawei is the 3rd largest smartphone maker, right behind Apple and Samsung in terms of market share and revenue. Xiaomi is behind Huawei in both market share and revenue share, though they were growing much faster last year and can overtake Huawei IF they maintain that momentum (extremely hard to pull it off while constantly increasing prices, I would say). And I don't think Huawei's ASP is way below Samsung's. They both have similar spread (from $100 phones to $1000+ phones) with similar market share. So I won't be surprised if their phone's ASP is close to that of Samsung. So I can understand why Avon's talking more about Huawei as equal to Samsung.
Apple's product releases - I agree with you. There is no strong evidence that they need to change it (like say - don't release the large LCD model in Sep-2018, rather release it in Mar-2019, to keep the interest throughout the year). I guess they would have changed it already, if required.
Regarding iOS installed base, did we hear from Apple/Tim Cook recently? When was the last time we got this data from Apple? I may have missed that part if it was revealed recently. Can you please share the details?
That is Apple's total user base, but isn't broken down by segment. Some analysts have done that though.
You and Avon b7 are fine making assumptions about Huawei's ASP compared to Samsung, yet have provided no numbers. I'm shocked!
Apple provides unit sales, revenue, margins, and profit for it's iPhones. Analysts have enough external data to flesh out a pretty good idea of the model mix, albeit Apple has stated that the iPhone X continues to be the leading model for sales. It is also the highest ASP model in the current lineup. The iPhone X also has extremely high customer satisfaction numbers.
Some time ago, after the financial results of Apple's Christmas/Q1,there was a post on AI by Daniel with both Apple's record breaking $795 ASP for the Quarter and Samsung's record breaking $275 ASP (I might be a bit off on that from memory).
Nowhere have I seen any data that put Huawei near the same ASP as Samsung, and I wouldn't expect to merely from Huawei being later in the market and with weak branding.
What appears to be happening, and I stated this up thread, is that Samsung is seeing impact on it's share from Huawei, but I see little evidence at all of Huawei's impact on Apple. Again, there is a great deal of evidence over a long period of time, that Apple's iPhone market is, for the most part, independent of the Android OS market.
Now, for the sake of forward vision, we have Xiaomi that has pledged a cap of 5% on profits, with the plan of returning anything above that back to it's user, in some fashion, and generating its revenues in services. Yet, when pressed, Avon b7 reported that Xiaomi was actually generating around 3% profits. So once you throw Xiaomi into the mix in the eurozone, and with Samsung obviously going to compete harder against Huawei, I'm not seeing these quests for higher ASP's to actually hold up. Remember, most of the existing smartphone markets are saturated, so there's only so much organic growth the Huawei can expect.
I do think that Huawei has enough premium phones to create a higher ASP, but sales won't touch the numbers for any on Apple's models, and again, Samsung will likely make a concerted effort to compete.
Hence why the unit growth vs revenue growth for Huawei appears, so far, to be all market acquisition, Ie, promotions, and incentives to gain unit share.
I'll be happy to see actual data on Huawei's P20 sales, but I'm not expecting any miracles.
Apple's larger spread seems to be finding takers at every entry point. 25% went to SE, iPhone 6 and iPhone 6s. That's a lot of demand for cheaper options as well as the higher options. The larger spread may be paying off.
Huawei up over 30% and without including P20 series phones or next week's Honor 10 launch. They look good for the current quarter.
More worrying are the sharp drops in three of Apple's major European markets.
Yet the iPhone X was "the best-shipping smartphone in the region".
Your concern troll is showing.
Going to have another day of pushing FUD to make Huawei look good?
Oh no, he wasn't 100% overpraising Apple, he must be a troll. Trolling goes both ways, incessant and blind praise of Apple is as much trolling as is constant bashing. By that metric, you're a troll.
I think iPhones are still too expensive. Everyone I've spoken to about the X says it's way too expensive, and people already think the non-flagships are pretty steep. I have plenty Apple-toting friends, and I am a self-confessed fanboy. But even I can see Apple gear really is getting very expensive. Cook's Apple seems to be all about raising prices, I don't know any product that's gone down in price in Cook's reign. The increasing service revenue should be offsetting the phone prices, not adding to them. Unfortunately this is reminiscent of the early 90's Apple; ballooning SKU numbers, not giving people what they want, software and hardware bugs creeping in whilst prices edge up. Apple's obviously in a much better position now, but even so. I don't want history to repeat itself.
You need to follow his comments over time here at AI. He is a shill for Huawei; proven by his many pro Huawei posts. That is a fact.
He spreads FUD about Apple. That is also a fact. He did so today with his first comment, "worrisome" which had no basis in fact. I believe that he does that because his team hasn't reached Apple's success. His metric is unit sales. Please note that Huawei's growth of 38 percent in unit sales has added a mere 1.7% in revenue gains. Is that in any way a quantifiable success? Apple's slight dip in unit sales is likely driven by an increase in ASP. Which is the better business model?
Am I blindly praising Apple, as you have now stated, and am I a troll for responding to Avon b7's bullshit? Perhaps you should be a bit more discerning in what you are reading and posting. My comments stand on their own, and you are free to continue to check my history if you think that I am a troll.
Huawei's growth of 38 percent in unit sales has added a mere 1.7% in revenue gains
This is just another sign of dumping by a Chinese company as has been shown many times before.
Now I am glad the U.S. kept Huawei.
I am so tired of reading this Huawei crap by Avon all the time. Why did Golden State win the 2017? Huawei increased it marketshare. Why did the French Revolution take place - Huawei was not available in France at the time. I feel like I just stuck in HuaweiInsider. Quite opposite of encouraging me to ever look at Huawei if it showed up in the US, I'm quite disposed against it. TrollFail.
That is exactly the kind of comment that needs correcting so here we go yet again:
Apple's business is still dominated by mobile.
It has a yearly release cycle that obviously leads to a yearly spike in performance. People hold off before a refresh, then buy en mass when it happens. Looking at the results from that spike, just one quarter (or the one immediately after it) provides a somewhat distorted view.
Do you agree with that? You should.
It is far more reliable to gauge performance YoY (full years). You should agree with that too.
So here is Huawei's audited results summary direct from the horse's mouth (my bold):
"Shenzhen, China, March 30, 2018] Huawei released its audited financial results for 2017, reporting solid business growth. The company's total annual revenue was CNY603.6 billion (US$92.5 billion based on year-end exchange rates), anincreaseof15.7% over 2016 ."Net profits were CNY47.5 billion (US$7.3 billion), anincreaseof28.1% year-on-year."
Now, the 1.7% figure comes from a research estimate for one quarter in one region and the report made it crystal clear that it doesn't include the P20 Series models. Models that appear to be breaking records.
And from that, you jump in feet first with your 'dumping' claim. You made a mistake. I can live with that but I would like to point out that in a previous post I went out of my way to point out that Huawei increased prices (yes, iniEurope too) across many models by around 100€ last year. They have also made a concerted effort to move into the premium segment. 'Dumping' should be the last thing on your mind.
Your comment on 'Huaweiinsider' is also completely incorrect. Appleinnsider dedicates far more articles to Samsung and Google than any of my contributions to threads here.
For starters, I do not even participate in the vast majority of threads here. Your argument virtually dies right there but on top of that, there is a lot of pure misinformation that appears in the forums that I just let go.
However, there needs to be some balance in things so readers don't get mislead.
Hence this post that was only necessary because you put 'dumping' into the soup.
I support competition. Apple biting into Samsung, Huawei biting into Apple and Xiaomi biting into Huawei etc.
I don't care if sales, revenues or profits take a hit. I care about what reaches the consumer and having choice. There is a lot of quality out there. Far more than ever before. There is crap too, I don't deny it but has that ever not been the case?
Almost all Android OEMs (including the likes of Xiaomi who are expected to be "cheap") have increased prices across the board in the last 2 years. So I agree with you that the "dumping" comments are ignorant of the ground reality. This increased prices across the board could be the driver behind the slowing down of the smartphone market overall.
Uhm, the "dumping" comment was with regard to the fact that Huawei increased its sales in the Eurozone 38% with only a 1.7% revenue increase. Now that data may not be true, but it is the case that acquisition or "buying" marketshare would have the same result. So even if individual products increase in price, it wouldn't necessarily align with either a higher ASP, more revenue, or more profits, due to promotions and incentives.
I would acknowledge that Apple's primary revenue generator is iPhone, now at about 60% of revenue. but it is also the case that Avon b7 is fine with adding all of Huawei's revenue and profit for 2017 as if it was entirely smartphones, which it decidedly isn't. I have stated that Apple's average iPhone age is now nearly 4 years, yet the user base has continued to grow, as has subscriptions and the ecosystem. So even if Apple's iPhone sales have "flattened", Apple's ASP has provided increased YOY iPhone revenue, and, as I have posted, will have again at the end of this quarter, with and estimated 15% revenue increase, driven, again, by Apple's current lineup and iPhone's 7 and 7 plus. Very little comparative revenue is generated by the either the iPhone 6 or the SE, which in the Eurozone, account for 25% of unit sales. That's how ASP works.
Avon b7 wants to create the impression that Huawei is very competitive in the smartphone market with Apple, but as I have stated many a time, Android OS devices don't actually compete directly with Apple's iPhone. This is a fundamental flaw in his analysis.
More so, Avon b7's focus on Huawei distorts the actual competition, which is primarily Samsung and other large Chinese device makers like Oppo, Vivo, and Xiaomi. I have never stated that Huawei isn't growing it's units sales, nor that it isn't moving its ASP up. However, it's ASP is much lower than Samsung's, which is about a third of Apple's, so I'm not inclined to give them peer status with Apple. I suspect this is an issue with Avon b7.
The last thing is that Avon b7 is in fact incorrect wrt Apple's product releases. Apple does not need to release other than its yearly schedule. There isn't any evidence that iPhone buyers are craving faster release of features. If anything, the yearly cycle provides a stability to the market and has the effect of maintaining the value of Apple devices in the secondary market of used iPhones. These iPhones, plus Apple refurbished models, are a gateway for many new iOS users, again, note that Apple's user base continues to expand; the last data from Apple was an expansion from a billion users to 1.3 billion in two years.
While I agree with most of your points (mostly related to Apple and their business model etc), I disagree with some of the points particularly related to Huawei. Huawei is 4th largest smartphone maker worldwide if we consider BBK (Oppo + Vivo + OnePlus) as a single entity. If we consider them as separate entities which is how they want to be identified, Huawei is the 3rd largest smartphone maker, right behind Apple and Samsung in terms of market share and revenue. Xiaomi is behind Huawei in both market share and revenue share, though they were growing much faster last year and can overtake Huawei IF they maintain that momentum (extremely hard to pull it off while constantly increasing prices, I would say). And I don't think Huawei's ASP is way below Samsung's. They both have similar spread (from $100 phones to $1000+ phones) with similar market share. So I won't be surprised if their phone's ASP is close to that of Samsung. So I can understand why Avon's talking more about Huawei as equal to Samsung.
Apple's product releases - I agree with you. There is no strong evidence that they need to change it (like say - don't release the large LCD model in Sep-2018, rather release it in Mar-2019, to keep the interest throughout the year). I guess they would have changed it already, if required.
Regarding iOS installed base, did we hear from Apple/Tim Cook recently? When was the last time we got this data from Apple? I may have missed that part if it was revealed recently. Can you please share the details?
That is Apple's total user base, but isn't broken down by segment. Some analysts have done that though.
You and Avon b7 are fine making assumptions about Huawei's ASP compared to Samsung, yet have provided no numbers. I'm shocked!
Apple provides unit sales, revenue, margins, and profit for it's iPhones. Analysts have enough external data to flesh out a pretty good idea of the model mix, albeit Apple has stated that the iPhone X continues to be the leading model for sales. It is also the highest ASP model in the current lineup. The iPhone X also has extremely high customer satisfaction numbers.
Some time ago, after the financial results of Apple's Christmas/Q1,there was a post on AI by Daniel with both Apple's record breaking $795 ASP for the Quarter and Samsung's record breaking $275 ASP (I might be a bit off on that from memory).
Nowhere have I seen any data that put Huawei near the same ASP as Samsung, and I wouldn't expect to merely from Huawei being later in the market and with weak branding.
What appears to be happening, and I stated this up thread, is that Samsung is seeing impact on it's share from Huawei, but I see little evidence at all of Huawei's impact on Apple. Again, there is a great deal of evidence over a long period of time, that Apple's iPhone market is, for the most part, independent of the Android OS market.
Now, for the sake of forward vision, we have Xiaomi that has pledged a cap of 5% on profits, with the plan of returning anything above that back to it's user, in some fashion, and generating its revenues in services. Yet, when pressed, Avon b7 reported that Xiaomi was actually generating around 3% profits. So once you throw Xiaomi into the mix in the eurozone, and with Samsung obviously going to compete harder against Huawei, I'm not seeing these quests for higher ASP's to actually hold up. Remember, most of the existing smartphone markets are saturated, so there's only so much organic growth the Huawei can expect.
I do think that Huawei has enough premium phones to create a higher ASP, but sales won't touch the numbers for any on Apple's models, and again, Samsung will likely make a concerted effort to compete.
Hence why the unit growth vs revenue growth for Huawei appears, so far, to be all market acquisition, Ie, promotions, and incentives to gain unit share.
I'll be happy to see actual data on Huawei's P20 sales, but I'm not expecting any miracles.
Ehem!
'when pressed'? Ha! You mentioned the point and I gave you an answer to the best of my knowledge, just like I always do. I was not 'pressed'.
I mentioned the cap on net profit simply because it is newsworthy (and quite curious seeing as they plan an IPO).
Huawei isn't a publicly traded company. It is a private company.
ASP isn't even mentioned in its annual financial reporting. That said, there are many research firms offering estimates. I think around 2016 it was on a par with Samsung.
Irrelevant for the consumer though. And, in case you were wondering, I don't work for Huawei and therefore have no shareholder stake. ;-)
Apple's larger spread seems to be finding takers at every entry point. 25% went to SE, iPhone 6 and iPhone 6s. That's a lot of demand for cheaper options as well as the higher options. The larger spread may be paying off.
Huawei up over 30% and without including P20 series phones or next week's Honor 10 launch. They look good for the current quarter.
More worrying are the sharp drops in three of Apple's major European markets.
Yet the iPhone X was "the best-shipping smartphone in the region".
Your concern troll is showing.
Going to have another day of pushing FUD to make Huawei look good?
Oh no, he wasn't 100% overpraising Apple, he must be a troll. Trolling goes both ways, incessant and blind praise of Apple is as much trolling as is constant bashing. By that metric, you're a troll.
I think iPhones are still too expensive. Everyone I've spoken to about the X says it's way too expensive, and people already think the non-flagships are pretty steep. I have plenty Apple-toting friends, and I am a self-confessed fanboy. But even I can see Apple gear really is getting very expensive. Cook's Apple seems to be all about raising prices, I don't know any product that's gone down in price in Cook's reign. The increasing service revenue should be offsetting the phone prices, not adding to them. Unfortunately this is reminiscent of the early 90's Apple; ballooning SKU numbers, not giving people what they want, software and hardware bugs creeping in whilst prices edge up. Apple's obviously in a much better position now, but even so. I don't want history to repeat itself.
You need to follow his comments over time here at AI. He is a shill for Huawei; proven by his many pro Huawei posts. That is a fact.
He spreads FUD about Apple. That is also a fact. He did so today with his first comment, "worrisome" which had no basis in fact. I believe that he does that because his team hasn't reached Apple's success. His metric is unit sales. Please note that Huawei's growth of 38 percent in unit sales has added a mere 1.7% in revenue gains. Is that in any way a quantifiable success? Apple's slight dip in unit sales is likely driven by an increase in ASP. Which is the better business model?
Am I blindly praising Apple, as you have now stated, and am I a troll for responding to Avon b7's bullshit? Perhaps you should be a bit more discerning in what you are reading and posting. My comments stand on their own, and you are free to continue to check my history if you think that I am a troll.
Huawei's growth of 38 percent in unit sales has added a mere 1.7% in revenue gains
This is just another sign of dumping by a Chinese company as has been shown many times before.
Now I am glad the U.S. kept Huawei.
I am so tired of reading this Huawei crap by Avon all the time. Why did Golden State win the 2017? Huawei increased it marketshare. Why did the French Revolution take place - Huawei was not available in France at the time. I feel like I just stuck in HuaweiInsider. Quite opposite of encouraging me to ever look at Huawei if it showed up in the US, I'm quite disposed against it. TrollFail.
That is exactly the kind of comment that needs correcting so here we go yet again:
Apple's business is still dominated by mobile.
It has a yearly release cycle that obviously leads to a yearly spike in performance. People hold off before a refresh, then buy en mass when it happens. Looking at the results from that spike, just one quarter (or the one immediately after it) provides a somewhat distorted view.
Do you agree with that? You should.
It is far more reliable to gauge performance YoY (full years). You should agree with that too.
So here is Huawei's audited results summary direct from the horse's mouth (my bold):
"Shenzhen, China, March 30, 2018] Huawei released its audited financial results for 2017, reporting solid business growth. The company's total annual revenue was CNY603.6 billion (US$92.5 billion based on year-end exchange rates), anincreaseof15.7% over 2016 ."Net profits were CNY47.5 billion (US$7.3 billion), anincreaseof28.1% year-on-year."
Now, the 1.7% figure comes from a research estimate for one quarter in one region and the report made it crystal clear that it doesn't include the P20 Series models. Models that appear to be breaking records.
And from that, you jump in feet first with your 'dumping' claim. You made a mistake. I can live with that but I would like to point out that in a previous post I went out of my way to point out that Huawei increased prices (yes, iniEurope too) across many models by around 100€ last year. They have also made a concerted effort to move into the premium segment. 'Dumping' should be the last thing on your mind.
Your comment on 'Huaweiinsider' is also completely incorrect. Appleinnsider dedicates far more articles to Samsung and Google than any of my contributions to threads here.
For starters, I do not even participate in the vast majority of threads here. Your argument virtually dies right there but on top of that, there is a lot of pure misinformation that appears in the forums that I just let go.
However, there needs to be some balance in things so readers don't get mislead.
Hence this post that was only necessary because you put 'dumping' into the soup.
I support competition. Apple biting into Samsung, Huawei biting into Apple and Xiaomi biting into Huawei etc.
I don't care if sales, revenues or profits take a hit. I care about what reaches the consumer and having choice. There is a lot of quality out there. Far more than ever before. There is crap too, I don't deny it but has that ever not been the case?
Almost all Android OEMs (including the likes of Xiaomi who are expected to be "cheap") have increased prices across the board in the last 2 years. So I agree with you that the "dumping" comments are ignorant of the ground reality. This increased prices across the board could be the driver behind the slowing down of the smartphone market overall.
Uhm, the "dumping" comment was with regard to the fact that Huawei increased its sales in the Eurozone 38% with only a 1.7% revenue increase. Now that data may not be true, but it is the case that acquisition or "buying" marketshare would have the same result. So even if individual products increase in price, it wouldn't necessarily align with either a higher ASP, more revenue, or more profits, due to promotions and incentives.
I would acknowledge that Apple's primary revenue generator is iPhone, now at about 60% of revenue. but it is also the case that Avon b7 is fine with adding all of Huawei's revenue and profit for 2017 as if it was entirely smartphones, which it decidedly isn't. I have stated that Apple's average iPhone age is now nearly 4 years, yet the user base has continued to grow, as has subscriptions and the ecosystem. So even if Apple's iPhone sales have "flattened", Apple's ASP has provided increased YOY iPhone revenue, and, as I have posted, will have again at the end of this quarter, with and estimated 15% revenue increase, driven, again, by Apple's current lineup and iPhone's 7 and 7 plus. Very little comparative revenue is generated by the either the iPhone 6 or the SE, which in the Eurozone, account for 25% of unit sales. That's how ASP works.
Avon b7 wants to create the impression that Huawei is very competitive in the smartphone market with Apple, but as I have stated many a time, Android OS devices don't actually compete directly with Apple's iPhone. This is a fundamental flaw in his analysis.
More so, Avon b7's focus on Huawei distorts the actual competition, which is primarily Samsung and other large Chinese device makers like Oppo, Vivo, and Xiaomi. I have never stated that Huawei isn't growing it's units sales, nor that it isn't moving its ASP up. However, it's ASP is much lower than Samsung's, which is about a third of Apple's, so I'm not inclined to give them peer status with Apple. I suspect this is an issue with Avon b7.
The last thing is that Avon b7 is in fact incorrect wrt Apple's product releases. Apple does not need to release other than its yearly schedule. There isn't any evidence that iPhone buyers are craving faster release of features. If anything, the yearly cycle provides a stability to the market and has the effect of maintaining the value of Apple devices in the secondary market of used iPhones. These iPhones, plus Apple refurbished models, are a gateway for many new iOS users, again, note that Apple's user base continues to expand; the last data from Apple was an expansion from a billion users to 1.3 billion in two years.
While I agree with most of your points (mostly related to Apple and their business model etc), I disagree with some of the points particularly related to Huawei. Huawei is 4th largest smartphone maker worldwide if we consider BBK (Oppo + Vivo + OnePlus) as a single entity. If we consider them as separate entities which is how they want to be identified, Huawei is the 3rd largest smartphone maker, right behind Apple and Samsung in terms of market share and revenue. Xiaomi is behind Huawei in both market share and revenue share, though they were growing much faster last year and can overtake Huawei IF they maintain that momentum (extremely hard to pull it off while constantly increasing prices, I would say). And I don't think Huawei's ASP is way below Samsung's. They both have similar spread (from $100 phones to $1000+ phones) with similar market share. So I won't be surprised if their phone's ASP is close to that of Samsung. So I can understand why Avon's talking more about Huawei as equal to Samsung.
Apple's product releases - I agree with you. There is no strong evidence that they need to change it (like say - don't release the large LCD model in Sep-2018, rather release it in Mar-2019, to keep the interest throughout the year). I guess they would have changed it already, if required.
Regarding iOS installed base, did we hear from Apple/Tim Cook recently? When was the last time we got this data from Apple? I may have missed that part if it was revealed recently. Can you please share the details?
That is Apple's total user base, but isn't broken down by segment. Some analysts have done that though.
You and Avon b7 are fine making assumptions about Huawei's ASP compared to Samsung, yet have provided no numbers. I'm shocked!
Apple provides unit sales, revenue, margins, and profit for it's iPhones. Analysts have enough external data to flesh out a pretty good idea of the model mix, albeit Apple has stated that the iPhone X continues to be the leading model for sales. It is also the highest ASP model in the current lineup. The iPhone X also has extremely high customer satisfaction numbers.
Some time ago, after the financial results of Apple's Christmas/Q1,there was a post on AI by Daniel with both Apple's record breaking $795 ASP for the Quarter and Samsung's record breaking $275 ASP (I might be a bit off on that from memory).
Nowhere have I seen any data that put Huawei near the same ASP as Samsung, and I wouldn't expect to merely from Huawei being later in the market and with weak branding.
What appears to be happening, and I stated this up thread, is that Samsung is seeing impact on it's share from Huawei, but I see little evidence at all of Huawei's impact on Apple. Again, there is a great deal of evidence over a long period of time, that Apple's iPhone market is, for the most part, independent of the Android OS market.
Now, for the sake of forward vision, we have Xiaomi that has pledged a cap of 5% on profits, with the plan of returning anything above that back to it's user, in some fashion, and generating its revenues in services. Yet, when pressed, Avon b7 reported that Xiaomi was actually generating around 3% profits. So once you throw Xiaomi into the mix in the eurozone, and with Samsung obviously going to compete harder against Huawei, I'm not seeing these quests for higher ASP's to actually hold up. Remember, most of the existing smartphone markets are saturated, so there's only so much organic growth the Huawei can expect.
I do think that Huawei has enough premium phones to create a higher ASP, but sales won't touch the numbers for any on Apple's models, and again, Samsung will likely make a concerted effort to compete.
Hence why the unit growth vs revenue growth for Huawei appears, so far, to be all market acquisition, Ie, promotions, and incentives to gain unit share.
I'll be happy to see actual data on Huawei's P20 sales, but I'm not expecting any miracles.
Ehem!
'when pressed'? Ha! You mentioned the point and I gave you an answer to the best of my knowledge, just like I always do. I was not 'pressed'.
I mentioned the cap on net profit simply because it is newsworthy (and quite curious seeing as they plan an IPO).
Huawei isn't a publicly traded company. It is a private company.
ASP isn't even mentioned in its annual financial reporting. That said, there are many research firms offering estimates. I think around 2016 it was on a par with Samsung.
Irrelevant for the consumer though. And, in case you were wondering, I don't work for Huawei and therefore have no shareholder stake. ;-)
So there isn't any data, and if there was, and it didn't show high ASP, revenue, or profit, it wouldn't matter.
Got it.
Yet you are fine with comparing Huawei to Apple, just without any metrics or data except units
Apple's larger spread seems to be finding takers at every entry point. 25% went to SE, iPhone 6 and iPhone 6s. That's a lot of demand for cheaper options as well as the higher options. The larger spread may be paying off.
Huawei up over 30% and without including P20 series phones or next week's Honor 10 launch. They look good for the current quarter.
More worrying are the sharp drops in three of Apple's major European markets.
Yet the iPhone X was "the best-shipping smartphone in the region".
Your concern troll is showing.
Going to have another day of pushing FUD to make Huawei look good?
Oh no, he wasn't 100% overpraising Apple, he must be a troll. Trolling goes both ways, incessant and blind praise of Apple is as much trolling as is constant bashing. By that metric, you're a troll.
I think iPhones are still too expensive. Everyone I've spoken to about the X says it's way too expensive, and people already think the non-flagships are pretty steep. I have plenty Apple-toting friends, and I am a self-confessed fanboy. But even I can see Apple gear really is getting very expensive. Cook's Apple seems to be all about raising prices, I don't know any product that's gone down in price in Cook's reign. The increasing service revenue should be offsetting the phone prices, not adding to them. Unfortunately this is reminiscent of the early 90's Apple; ballooning SKU numbers, not giving people what they want, software and hardware bugs creeping in whilst prices edge up. Apple's obviously in a much better position now, but even so. I don't want history to repeat itself.
You need to follow his comments over time here at AI. He is a shill for Huawei; proven by his many pro Huawei posts. That is a fact.
He spreads FUD about Apple. That is also a fact. He did so today with his first comment, "worrisome" which had no basis in fact. I believe that he does that because his team hasn't reached Apple's success. His metric is unit sales. Please note that Huawei's growth of 38 percent in unit sales has added a mere 1.7% in revenue gains. Is that in any way a quantifiable success? Apple's slight dip in unit sales is likely driven by an increase in ASP. Which is the better business model?
Am I blindly praising Apple, as you have now stated, and am I a troll for responding to Avon b7's bullshit? Perhaps you should be a bit more discerning in what you are reading and posting. My comments stand on their own, and you are free to continue to check my history if you think that I am a troll.
Huawei's growth of 38 percent in unit sales has added a mere 1.7% in revenue gains
This is just another sign of dumping by a Chinese company as has been shown many times before.
Now I am glad the U.S. kept Huawei.
I am so tired of reading this Huawei crap by Avon all the time. Why did Golden State win the 2017? Huawei increased it marketshare. Why did the French Revolution take place - Huawei was not available in France at the time. I feel like I just stuck in HuaweiInsider. Quite opposite of encouraging me to ever look at Huawei if it showed up in the US, I'm quite disposed against it. TrollFail.
That is exactly the kind of comment that needs correcting so here we go yet again:
Apple's business is still dominated by mobile.
It has a yearly release cycle that obviously leads to a yearly spike in performance. People hold off before a refresh, then buy en mass when it happens. Looking at the results from that spike, just one quarter (or the one immediately after it) provides a somewhat distorted view.
Do you agree with that? You should.
It is far more reliable to gauge performance YoY (full years). You should agree with that too.
So here is Huawei's audited results summary direct from the horse's mouth (my bold):
"Shenzhen, China, March 30, 2018] Huawei released its audited financial results for 2017, reporting solid business growth. The company's total annual revenue was CNY603.6 billion (US$92.5 billion based on year-end exchange rates), anincreaseof15.7% over 2016 ."Net profits were CNY47.5 billion (US$7.3 billion), anincreaseof28.1% year-on-year."
Now, the 1.7% figure comes from a research estimate for one quarter in one region and the report made it crystal clear that it doesn't include the P20 Series models. Models that appear to be breaking records.
And from that, you jump in feet first with your 'dumping' claim. You made a mistake. I can live with that but I would like to point out that in a previous post I went out of my way to point out that Huawei increased prices (yes, iniEurope too) across many models by around 100€ last year. They have also made a concerted effort to move into the premium segment. 'Dumping' should be the last thing on your mind.
Your comment on 'Huaweiinsider' is also completely incorrect. Appleinnsider dedicates far more articles to Samsung and Google than any of my contributions to threads here.
For starters, I do not even participate in the vast majority of threads here. Your argument virtually dies right there but on top of that, there is a lot of pure misinformation that appears in the forums that I just let go.
However, there needs to be some balance in things so readers don't get mislead.
Hence this post that was only necessary because you put 'dumping' into the soup.
I support competition. Apple biting into Samsung, Huawei biting into Apple and Xiaomi biting into Huawei etc.
I don't care if sales, revenues or profits take a hit. I care about what reaches the consumer and having choice. There is a lot of quality out there. Far more than ever before. There is crap too, I don't deny it but has that ever not been the case?
Almost all Android OEMs (including the likes of Xiaomi who are expected to be "cheap") have increased prices across the board in the last 2 years. So I agree with you that the "dumping" comments are ignorant of the ground reality. This increased prices across the board could be the driver behind the slowing down of the smartphone market overall.
Uhm, the "dumping" comment was with regard to the fact that Huawei increased its sales in the Eurozone 38% with only a 1.7% revenue increase. Now that data may not be true, but it is the case that acquisition or "buying" marketshare would have the same result. So even if individual products increase in price, it wouldn't necessarily align with either a higher ASP, more revenue, or more profits, due to promotions and incentives.
I would acknowledge that Apple's primary revenue generator is iPhone, now at about 60% of revenue. but it is also the case that Avon b7 is fine with adding all of Huawei's revenue and profit for 2017 as if it was entirely smartphones, which it decidedly isn't. I have stated that Apple's average iPhone age is now nearly 4 years, yet the user base has continued to grow, as has subscriptions and the ecosystem. So even if Apple's iPhone sales have "flattened", Apple's ASP has provided increased YOY iPhone revenue, and, as I have posted, will have again at the end of this quarter, with and estimated 15% revenue increase, driven, again, by Apple's current lineup and iPhone's 7 and 7 plus. Very little comparative revenue is generated by the either the iPhone 6 or the SE, which in the Eurozone, account for 25% of unit sales. That's how ASP works.
Avon b7 wants to create the impression that Huawei is very competitive in the smartphone market with Apple, but as I have stated many a time, Android OS devices don't actually compete directly with Apple's iPhone. This is a fundamental flaw in his analysis.
More so, Avon b7's focus on Huawei distorts the actual competition, which is primarily Samsung and other large Chinese device makers like Oppo, Vivo, and Xiaomi. I have never stated that Huawei isn't growing it's units sales, nor that it isn't moving its ASP up. However, it's ASP is much lower than Samsung's, which is about a third of Apple's, so I'm not inclined to give them peer status with Apple. I suspect this is an issue with Avon b7.
The last thing is that Avon b7 is in fact incorrect wrt Apple's product releases. Apple does not need to release other than its yearly schedule. There isn't any evidence that iPhone buyers are craving faster release of features. If anything, the yearly cycle provides a stability to the market and has the effect of maintaining the value of Apple devices in the secondary market of used iPhones. These iPhones, plus Apple refurbished models, are a gateway for many new iOS users, again, note that Apple's user base continues to expand; the last data from Apple was an expansion from a billion users to 1.3 billion in two years.
While I agree with most of your points (mostly related to Apple and their business model etc), I disagree with some of the points particularly related to Huawei. Huawei is 4th largest smartphone maker worldwide if we consider BBK (Oppo + Vivo + OnePlus) as a single entity. If we consider them as separate entities which is how they want to be identified, Huawei is the 3rd largest smartphone maker, right behind Apple and Samsung in terms of market share and revenue. Xiaomi is behind Huawei in both market share and revenue share, though they were growing much faster last year and can overtake Huawei IF they maintain that momentum (extremely hard to pull it off while constantly increasing prices, I would say). And I don't think Huawei's ASP is way below Samsung's. They both have similar spread (from $100 phones to $1000+ phones) with similar market share. So I won't be surprised if their phone's ASP is close to that of Samsung. So I can understand why Avon's talking more about Huawei as equal to Samsung.
Apple's product releases - I agree with you. There is no strong evidence that they need to change it (like say - don't release the large LCD model in Sep-2018, rather release it in Mar-2019, to keep the interest throughout the year). I guess they would have changed it already, if required.
Regarding iOS installed base, did we hear from Apple/Tim Cook recently? When was the last time we got this data from Apple? I may have missed that part if it was revealed recently. Can you please share the details?
That is Apple's total user base, but isn't broken down by segment. Some analysts have done that though.
You and Avon b7 are fine making assumptions about Huawei's ASP compared to Samsung, yet have provided no numbers. I'm shocked!
Apple provides unit sales, revenue, margins, and profit for it's iPhones. Analysts have enough external data to flesh out a pretty good idea of the model mix, albeit Apple has stated that the iPhone X continues to be the leading model for sales. It is also the highest ASP model in the current lineup. The iPhone X also has extremely high customer satisfaction numbers.
Some time ago, after the financial results of Apple's Christmas/Q1,there was a post on AI by Daniel with both Apple's record breaking $795 ASP for the Quarter and Samsung's record breaking $275 ASP (I might be a bit off on that from memory).
Nowhere have I seen any data that put Huawei near the same ASP as Samsung, and I wouldn't expect to merely from Huawei being later in the market and with weak branding.
What appears to be happening, and I stated this up thread, is that Samsung is seeing impact on it's share from Huawei, but I see little evidence at all of Huawei's impact on Apple. Again, there is a great deal of evidence over a long period of time, that Apple's iPhone market is, for the most part, independent of the Android OS market.
Now, for the sake of forward vision, we have Xiaomi that has pledged a cap of 5% on profits, with the plan of returning anything above that back to it's user, in some fashion, and generating its revenues in services. Yet, when pressed, Avon b7 reported that Xiaomi was actually generating around 3% profits. So once you throw Xiaomi into the mix in the eurozone, and with Samsung obviously going to compete harder against Huawei, I'm not seeing these quests for higher ASP's to actually hold up. Remember, most of the existing smartphone markets are saturated, so there's only so much organic growth the Huawei can expect.
I do think that Huawei has enough premium phones to create a higher ASP, but sales won't touch the numbers for any on Apple's models, and again, Samsung will likely make a concerted effort to compete.
Hence why the unit growth vs revenue growth for Huawei appears, so far, to be all market acquisition, Ie, promotions, and incentives to gain unit share.
I'll be happy to see actual data on Huawei's P20 sales, but I'm not expecting any miracles.
Ehem!
'when pressed'? Ha! You mentioned the point and I gave you an answer to the best of my knowledge, just like I always do. I was not 'pressed'.
I mentioned the cap on net profit simply because it is newsworthy (and quite curious seeing as they plan an IPO).
Huawei isn't a publicly traded company. It is a private company.
ASP isn't even mentioned in its annual financial reporting. That said, there are many research firms offering estimates. I think around 2016 it was on a par with Samsung.
Irrelevant for the consumer though. And, in case you were wondering, I don't work for Huawei and therefore have no shareholder stake. ;-)
So there isn't any data, and if there was, and it didn't show high ASP, revenue, or profit, it wouldn't matter.
Got it.
Yet you are fine with comparing Huawei to Apple, just without any metrics or data except units
Go it.
Lame.
You lost me there. More than usual.
Yes, there is data. A full annual, audited report. Revenues, profits,...
I quoted from it in this very thread and gave a link to it. Why not give it a read yourself?
Apple's larger spread seems to be finding takers at every entry point. 25% went to SE, iPhone 6 and iPhone 6s. That's a lot of demand for cheaper options as well as the higher options. The larger spread may be paying off.
Huawei up over 30% and without including P20 series phones or next week's Honor 10 launch. They look good for the current quarter.
More worrying are the sharp drops in three of Apple's major European markets.
Yet the iPhone X was "the best-shipping smartphone in the region".
Your concern troll is showing.
Going to have another day of pushing FUD to make Huawei look good?
Oh no, he wasn't 100% overpraising Apple, he must be a troll. Trolling goes both ways, incessant and blind praise of Apple is as much trolling as is constant bashing. By that metric, you're a troll.
I think iPhones are still too expensive. Everyone I've spoken to about the X says it's way too expensive, and people already think the non-flagships are pretty steep. I have plenty Apple-toting friends, and I am a self-confessed fanboy. But even I can see Apple gear really is getting very expensive. Cook's Apple seems to be all about raising prices, I don't know any product that's gone down in price in Cook's reign. The increasing service revenue should be offsetting the phone prices, not adding to them. Unfortunately this is reminiscent of the early 90's Apple; ballooning SKU numbers, not giving people what they want, software and hardware bugs creeping in whilst prices edge up. Apple's obviously in a much better position now, but even so. I don't want history to repeat itself.
You need to follow his comments over time here at AI. He is a shill for Huawei; proven by his many pro Huawei posts. That is a fact.
He spreads FUD about Apple. That is also a fact. He did so today with his first comment, "worrisome" which had no basis in fact. I believe that he does that because his team hasn't reached Apple's success. His metric is unit sales. Please note that Huawei's growth of 38 percent in unit sales has added a mere 1.7% in revenue gains. Is that in any way a quantifiable success? Apple's slight dip in unit sales is likely driven by an increase in ASP. Which is the better business model?
Am I blindly praising Apple, as you have now stated, and am I a troll for responding to Avon b7's bullshit? Perhaps you should be a bit more discerning in what you are reading and posting. My comments stand on their own, and you are free to continue to check my history if you think that I am a troll.
Huawei's growth of 38 percent in unit sales has added a mere 1.7% in revenue gains
This is just another sign of dumping by a Chinese company as has been shown many times before.
Now I am glad the U.S. kept Huawei.
I am so tired of reading this Huawei crap by Avon all the time. Why did Golden State win the 2017? Huawei increased it marketshare. Why did the French Revolution take place - Huawei was not available in France at the time. I feel like I just stuck in HuaweiInsider. Quite opposite of encouraging me to ever look at Huawei if it showed up in the US, I'm quite disposed against it. TrollFail.
That is exactly the kind of comment that needs correcting so here we go yet again:
Apple's business is still dominated by mobile.
It has a yearly release cycle that obviously leads to a yearly spike in performance. People hold off before a refresh, then buy en mass when it happens. Looking at the results from that spike, just one quarter (or the one immediately after it) provides a somewhat distorted view.
Do you agree with that? You should.
It is far more reliable to gauge performance YoY (full years). You should agree with that too.
So here is Huawei's audited results summary direct from the horse's mouth (my bold):
"Shenzhen, China, March 30, 2018] Huawei released its audited financial results for 2017, reporting solid business growth. The company's total annual revenue was CNY603.6 billion (US$92.5 billion based on year-end exchange rates), anincreaseof15.7% over 2016 ."Net profits were CNY47.5 billion (US$7.3 billion), anincreaseof28.1% year-on-year."
Now, the 1.7% figure comes from a research estimate for one quarter in one region and the report made it crystal clear that it doesn't include the P20 Series models. Models that appear to be breaking records.
And from that, you jump in feet first with your 'dumping' claim. You made a mistake. I can live with that but I would like to point out that in a previous post I went out of my way to point out that Huawei increased prices (yes, iniEurope too) across many models by around 100€ last year. They have also made a concerted effort to move into the premium segment. 'Dumping' should be the last thing on your mind.
Your comment on 'Huaweiinsider' is also completely incorrect. Appleinnsider dedicates far more articles to Samsung and Google than any of my contributions to threads here.
For starters, I do not even participate in the vast majority of threads here. Your argument virtually dies right there but on top of that, there is a lot of pure misinformation that appears in the forums that I just let go.
However, there needs to be some balance in things so readers don't get mislead.
Hence this post that was only necessary because you put 'dumping' into the soup.
I support competition. Apple biting into Samsung, Huawei biting into Apple and Xiaomi biting into Huawei etc.
I don't care if sales, revenues or profits take a hit. I care about what reaches the consumer and having choice. There is a lot of quality out there. Far more than ever before. There is crap too, I don't deny it but has that ever not been the case?
Almost all Android OEMs (including the likes of Xiaomi who are expected to be "cheap") have increased prices across the board in the last 2 years. So I agree with you that the "dumping" comments are ignorant of the ground reality. This increased prices across the board could be the driver behind the slowing down of the smartphone market overall.
Uhm, the "dumping" comment was with regard to the fact that Huawei increased its sales in the Eurozone 38% with only a 1.7% revenue increase. Now that data may not be true, but it is the case that acquisition or "buying" marketshare would have the same result. So even if individual products increase in price, it wouldn't necessarily align with either a higher ASP, more revenue, or more profits, due to promotions and incentives.
I would acknowledge that Apple's primary revenue generator is iPhone, now at about 60% of revenue. but it is also the case that Avon b7 is fine with adding all of Huawei's revenue and profit for 2017 as if it was entirely smartphones, which it decidedly isn't. I have stated that Apple's average iPhone age is now nearly 4 years, yet the user base has continued to grow, as has subscriptions and the ecosystem. So even if Apple's iPhone sales have "flattened", Apple's ASP has provided increased YOY iPhone revenue, and, as I have posted, will have again at the end of this quarter, with and estimated 15% revenue increase, driven, again, by Apple's current lineup and iPhone's 7 and 7 plus. Very little comparative revenue is generated by the either the iPhone 6 or the SE, which in the Eurozone, account for 25% of unit sales. That's how ASP works.
Avon b7 wants to create the impression that Huawei is very competitive in the smartphone market with Apple, but as I have stated many a time, Android OS devices don't actually compete directly with Apple's iPhone. This is a fundamental flaw in his analysis.
More so, Avon b7's focus on Huawei distorts the actual competition, which is primarily Samsung and other large Chinese device makers like Oppo, Vivo, and Xiaomi. I have never stated that Huawei isn't growing it's units sales, nor that it isn't moving its ASP up. However, it's ASP is much lower than Samsung's, which is about a third of Apple's, so I'm not inclined to give them peer status with Apple. I suspect this is an issue with Avon b7.
The last thing is that Avon b7 is in fact incorrect wrt Apple's product releases. Apple does not need to release other than its yearly schedule. There isn't any evidence that iPhone buyers are craving faster release of features. If anything, the yearly cycle provides a stability to the market and has the effect of maintaining the value of Apple devices in the secondary market of used iPhones. These iPhones, plus Apple refurbished models, are a gateway for many new iOS users, again, note that Apple's user base continues to expand; the last data from Apple was an expansion from a billion users to 1.3 billion in two years.
While I agree with most of your points (mostly related to Apple and their business model etc), I disagree with some of the points particularly related to Huawei. Huawei is 4th largest smartphone maker worldwide if we consider BBK (Oppo + Vivo + OnePlus) as a single entity. If we consider them as separate entities which is how they want to be identified, Huawei is the 3rd largest smartphone maker, right behind Apple and Samsung in terms of market share and revenue. Xiaomi is behind Huawei in both market share and revenue share, though they were growing much faster last year and can overtake Huawei IF they maintain that momentum (extremely hard to pull it off while constantly increasing prices, I would say). And I don't think Huawei's ASP is way below Samsung's. They both have similar spread (from $100 phones to $1000+ phones) with similar market share. So I won't be surprised if their phone's ASP is close to that of Samsung. So I can understand why Avon's talking more about Huawei as equal to Samsung.
Apple's product releases - I agree with you. There is no strong evidence that they need to change it (like say - don't release the large LCD model in Sep-2018, rather release it in Mar-2019, to keep the interest throughout the year). I guess they would have changed it already, if required.
Regarding iOS installed base, did we hear from Apple/Tim Cook recently? When was the last time we got this data from Apple? I may have missed that part if it was revealed recently. Can you please share the details?
That is Apple's total user base, but isn't broken down by segment. Some analysts have done that though.
You and Avon b7 are fine making assumptions about Huawei's ASP compared to Samsung, yet have provided no numbers. I'm shocked!
Apple provides unit sales, revenue, margins, and profit for it's iPhones. Analysts have enough external data to flesh out a pretty good idea of the model mix, albeit Apple has stated that the iPhone X continues to be the leading model for sales. It is also the highest ASP model in the current lineup. The iPhone X also has extremely high customer satisfaction numbers.
Some time ago, after the financial results of Apple's Christmas/Q1,there was a post on AI by Daniel with both Apple's record breaking $795 ASP for the Quarter and Samsung's record breaking $275 ASP (I might be a bit off on that from memory).
Nowhere have I seen any data that put Huawei near the same ASP as Samsung, and I wouldn't expect to merely from Huawei being later in the market and with weak branding.
What appears to be happening, and I stated this up thread, is that Samsung is seeing impact on it's share from Huawei, but I see little evidence at all of Huawei's impact on Apple. Again, there is a great deal of evidence over a long period of time, that Apple's iPhone market is, for the most part, independent of the Android OS market.
Now, for the sake of forward vision, we have Xiaomi that has pledged a cap of 5% on profits, with the plan of returning anything above that back to it's user, in some fashion, and generating its revenues in services. Yet, when pressed, Avon b7 reported that Xiaomi was actually generating around 3% profits. So once you throw Xiaomi into the mix in the eurozone, and with Samsung obviously going to compete harder against Huawei, I'm not seeing these quests for higher ASP's to actually hold up. Remember, most of the existing smartphone markets are saturated, so there's only so much organic growth the Huawei can expect.
I do think that Huawei has enough premium phones to create a higher ASP, but sales won't touch the numbers for any on Apple's models, and again, Samsung will likely make a concerted effort to compete.
Hence why the unit growth vs revenue growth for Huawei appears, so far, to be all market acquisition, Ie, promotions, and incentives to gain unit share.
I'll be happy to see actual data on Huawei's P20 sales, but I'm not expecting any miracles.
You and Avon b7 are fine making assumptions about Huawei's ASP compared to Samsung, yet have provided no numbers. I'm shocked!
On this particular point, no one can provide ASP for Samsung or Huawei phones because ASP is not officially disclosed by both Samsung and Huawei, as far as I know. Even the ASP of $275 specified in DED's article was an estimate, as far as I understand. I don't think Samsung ever discussed about ASP of its phones or willing to disclose that information. With lack of ANY official data from both the parties involved (Samsung and Huawei), I can only go with anecdotal evidence (market share, different models and their price tags etc). On almost all parameters, they both look similar to me. So I don't see how Huawei would have a far smaller ASP than Samsung.
Apple's larger spread seems to be finding takers at every entry point. 25% went to SE, iPhone 6 and iPhone 6s. That's a lot of demand for cheaper options as well as the higher options. The larger spread may be paying off.
Huawei up over 30% and without including P20 series phones or next week's Honor 10 launch. They look good for the current quarter.
More worrying are the sharp drops in three of Apple's major European markets.
Yet the iPhone X was "the best-shipping smartphone in the region".
Your concern troll is showing.
Going to have another day of pushing FUD to make Huawei look good?
Oh no, he wasn't 100% overpraising Apple, he must be a troll. Trolling goes both ways, incessant and blind praise of Apple is as much trolling as is constant bashing. By that metric, you're a troll.
I think iPhones are still too expensive. Everyone I've spoken to about the X says it's way too expensive, and people already think the non-flagships are pretty steep. I have plenty Apple-toting friends, and I am a self-confessed fanboy. But even I can see Apple gear really is getting very expensive. Cook's Apple seems to be all about raising prices, I don't know any product that's gone down in price in Cook's reign. The increasing service revenue should be offsetting the phone prices, not adding to them. Unfortunately this is reminiscent of the early 90's Apple; ballooning SKU numbers, not giving people what they want, software and hardware bugs creeping in whilst prices edge up. Apple's obviously in a much better position now, but even so. I don't want history to repeat itself.
You need to follow his comments over time here at AI. He is a shill for Huawei; proven by his many pro Huawei posts. That is a fact.
He spreads FUD about Apple. That is also a fact. He did so today with his first comment, "worrisome" which had no basis in fact. I believe that he does that because his team hasn't reached Apple's success. His metric is unit sales. Please note that Huawei's growth of 38 percent in unit sales has added a mere 1.7% in revenue gains. Is that in any way a quantifiable success? Apple's slight dip in unit sales is likely driven by an increase in ASP. Which is the better business model?
Am I blindly praising Apple, as you have now stated, and am I a troll for responding to Avon b7's bullshit? Perhaps you should be a bit more discerning in what you are reading and posting. My comments stand on their own, and you are free to continue to check my history if you think that I am a troll.
Huawei's growth of 38 percent in unit sales has added a mere 1.7% in revenue gains
This is just another sign of dumping by a Chinese company as has been shown many times before.
Now I am glad the U.S. kept Huawei.
I am so tired of reading this Huawei crap by Avon all the time. Why did Golden State win the 2017? Huawei increased it marketshare. Why did the French Revolution take place - Huawei was not available in France at the time. I feel like I just stuck in HuaweiInsider. Quite opposite of encouraging me to ever look at Huawei if it showed up in the US, I'm quite disposed against it. TrollFail.
That is exactly the kind of comment that needs correcting so here we go yet again:
Apple's business is still dominated by mobile.
It has a yearly release cycle that obviously leads to a yearly spike in performance. People hold off before a refresh, then buy en mass when it happens. Looking at the results from that spike, just one quarter (or the one immediately after it) provides a somewhat distorted view.
Do you agree with that? You should.
It is far more reliable to gauge performance YoY (full years). You should agree with that too.
So here is Huawei's audited results summary direct from the horse's mouth (my bold):
"Shenzhen, China, March 30, 2018] Huawei released its audited financial results for 2017, reporting solid business growth. The company's total annual revenue was CNY603.6 billion (US$92.5 billion based on year-end exchange rates), anincreaseof15.7% over 2016 ."Net profits were CNY47.5 billion (US$7.3 billion), anincreaseof28.1% year-on-year."
Now, the 1.7% figure comes from a research estimate for one quarter in one region and the report made it crystal clear that it doesn't include the P20 Series models. Models that appear to be breaking records.
And from that, you jump in feet first with your 'dumping' claim. You made a mistake. I can live with that but I would like to point out that in a previous post I went out of my way to point out that Huawei increased prices (yes, in Europe too) across many models by around 100€ last year. They have also made a concerted effort to move into the premium segment. 'Dumping' should be the last thing on your mind.
Your comment on 'Huaweiinsider' is also completely incorrect. Appleinsider dedicates far more articles to Samsung and Google than any of my contributions to threads here.
For starters, I do not even participate in the vast majority of threads here. Your argument virtually dies right there but on top of that, there is a lot of pure misinformation that appears in the forums that I just let go.
However, there needs to be some balance in things so readers don't get mislead.
Hence this post that was only necessary because you put 'dumping' into the soup.
I support competition. Apple biting into Samsung, Huawei biting into Apple and Xiaomi biting into Huawei etc.
I don't care if sales, revenues or profits take a hit. I care about what reaches the consumer and having choice. There is a lot of quality out there. Far more than ever before. There is crap too, I don't deny it but has that ever not been the case?
So, 39% of Huawei's business is consumer, ie, smartphones, half of which is units sold in China.
Not a clue on how the profitable the handset business is.
Apple's larger spread seems to be finding takers at every entry point. 25% went to SE, iPhone 6 and iPhone 6s. That's a lot of demand for cheaper options as well as the higher options. The larger spread may be paying off.
Huawei up over 30% and without including P20 series phones or next week's Honor 10 launch. They look good for the current quarter.
More worrying are the sharp drops in three of Apple's major European markets.
Yet the iPhone X was "the best-shipping smartphone in the region".
Your concern troll is showing.
Going to have another day of pushing FUD to make Huawei look good?
Oh no, he wasn't 100% overpraising Apple, he must be a troll. Trolling goes both ways, incessant and blind praise of Apple is as much trolling as is constant bashing. By that metric, you're a troll.
I think iPhones are still too expensive. Everyone I've spoken to about the X says it's way too expensive, and people already think the non-flagships are pretty steep. I have plenty Apple-toting friends, and I am a self-confessed fanboy. But even I can see Apple gear really is getting very expensive. Cook's Apple seems to be all about raising prices, I don't know any product that's gone down in price in Cook's reign. The increasing service revenue should be offsetting the phone prices, not adding to them. Unfortunately this is reminiscent of the early 90's Apple; ballooning SKU numbers, not giving people what they want, software and hardware bugs creeping in whilst prices edge up. Apple's obviously in a much better position now, but even so. I don't want history to repeat itself.
You need to follow his comments over time here at AI. He is a shill for Huawei; proven by his many pro Huawei posts. That is a fact.
He spreads FUD about Apple. That is also a fact. He did so today with his first comment, "worrisome" which had no basis in fact. I believe that he does that because his team hasn't reached Apple's success. His metric is unit sales. Please note that Huawei's growth of 38 percent in unit sales has added a mere 1.7% in revenue gains. Is that in any way a quantifiable success? Apple's slight dip in unit sales is likely driven by an increase in ASP. Which is the better business model?
Am I blindly praising Apple, as you have now stated, and am I a troll for responding to Avon b7's bullshit? Perhaps you should be a bit more discerning in what you are reading and posting. My comments stand on their own, and you are free to continue to check my history if you think that I am a troll.
Huawei's growth of 38 percent in unit sales has added a mere 1.7% in revenue gains
This is just another sign of dumping by a Chinese company as has been shown many times before.
Now I am glad the U.S. kept Huawei.
I am so tired of reading this Huawei crap by Avon all the time. Why did Golden State win the 2017? Huawei increased it marketshare. Why did the French Revolution take place - Huawei was not available in France at the time. I feel like I just stuck in HuaweiInsider. Quite opposite of encouraging me to ever look at Huawei if it showed up in the US, I'm quite disposed against it. TrollFail.
That is exactly the kind of comment that needs correcting so here we go yet again:
Apple's business is still dominated by mobile.
It has a yearly release cycle that obviously leads to a yearly spike in performance. People hold off before a refresh, then buy en mass when it happens. Looking at the results from that spike, just one quarter (or the one immediately after it) provides a somewhat distorted view.
Do you agree with that? You should.
It is far more reliable to gauge performance YoY (full years). You should agree with that too.
So here is Huawei's audited results summary direct from the horse's mouth (my bold):
"Shenzhen, China, March 30, 2018] Huawei released its audited financial results for 2017, reporting solid business growth. The company's total annual revenue was CNY603.6 billion (US$92.5 billion based on year-end exchange rates), anincreaseof15.7% over 2016 ."Net profits were CNY47.5 billion (US$7.3 billion), anincreaseof28.1% year-on-year."
Now, the 1.7% figure comes from a research estimate for one quarter in one region and the report made it crystal clear that it doesn't include the P20 Series models. Models that appear to be breaking records.
And from that, you jump in feet first with your 'dumping' claim. You made a mistake. I can live with that but I would like to point out that in a previous post I went out of my way to point out that Huawei increased prices (yes, in Europe too) across many models by around 100€ last year. They have also made a concerted effort to move into the premium segment. 'Dumping' should be the last thing on your mind.
Your comment on 'Huaweiinsider' is also completely incorrect. Appleinsider dedicates far more articles to Samsung and Google than any of my contributions to threads here.
For starters, I do not even participate in the vast majority of threads here. Your argument virtually dies right there but on top of that, there is a lot of pure misinformation that appears in the forums that I just let go.
However, there needs to be some balance in things so readers don't get mislead.
Hence this post that was only necessary because you put 'dumping' into the soup.
I support competition. Apple biting into Samsung, Huawei biting into Apple and Xiaomi biting into Huawei etc.
I don't care if sales, revenues or profits take a hit. I care about what reaches the consumer and having choice. There is a lot of quality out there. Far more than ever before. There is crap too, I don't deny it but has that ever not been the case?
So, 39% of Huawei's business is consumer, ie, smartphones, half of which is units sold in China.
Not a clue on how the profitable the handset business is.
Yes. Consumer Business Group makes up less than 40% of total revenues. It isn't as dependant as Apple on handsets. Apple is trying reduce its dependency on handsets by growing services etc. A wise move.
Yes. Around half comes from China - the world's largest handset market. The United States hardly registers. I wonder why? They are pushing hard in other markets. This AI article highlights this fact.
As for profitability. You only need to know what I have already outlined in numerous threads where misinformation has abounded.
They are profitable enough to produce quite possibly the best smartphone on the market right now. Profitable enough to design their own CPUs (with rumours of an in-house GPU coming soon) and move to 7mn. Profitable enough to produce some of the best battery tech on the market. Profitable enough to produce some of the best modems on the market. Profitable enough to invest in AI on their SoC (the next NPU will even allow on-device learning). Profitable enough to be a core contributor to 5G. Profitable enough for much more than you are aware of and able to do it all with a lower ASP than Apple and without being listed as a public company.
Comments
While I agree with most of your points (mostly related to Apple and their business model etc), I disagree with some of the points particularly related to Huawei. Huawei is 4th largest smartphone maker worldwide if we consider BBK (Oppo + Vivo + OnePlus) as a single entity. If we consider them as separate entities which is how they want to be identified, Huawei is the 3rd largest smartphone maker, right behind Apple and Samsung in terms of market share and revenue. Xiaomi is behind Huawei in both market share and revenue share, though they were growing much faster last year and can overtake Huawei IF they maintain that momentum (extremely hard to pull it off while constantly increasing prices, I would say). And I don't think Huawei's ASP is way below Samsung's. They both have similar spread (from $100 phones to $1000+ phones) with similar market share. So I won't be surprised if their phone's ASP is close to that of Samsung. So I can understand why Avon's talking more about Huawei as equal to Samsung.
Apple's product releases - I agree with you. There is no strong evidence that they need to change it (like say - don't release the large LCD model in Sep-2018, rather release it in Mar-2019, to keep the interest throughout the year). I guess they would have changed it already, if required.
Regarding iOS installed base, did we hear from Apple/Tim Cook recently? When was the last time we got this data from Apple? I may have missed that part if it was revealed recently. Can you please share the details?
That is Apple's total user base, but isn't broken down by segment. Some analysts have done that though.
You and Avon b7 are fine making assumptions about Huawei's ASP compared to Samsung, yet have provided no numbers. I'm shocked!
Apple provides unit sales, revenue, margins, and profit for it's iPhones. Analysts have enough external data to flesh out a pretty good idea of the model mix, albeit Apple has stated that the iPhone X continues to be the leading model for sales. It is also the highest ASP model in the current lineup. The iPhone X also has extremely high customer satisfaction numbers.
https://www.macrumors.com/2018/04/23/iphone-x-siri-survey-creative-strategies/
Some time ago, after the financial results of Apple's Christmas/Q1,there was a post on AI by Daniel with both Apple's record breaking $795 ASP for the Quarter and Samsung's record breaking $275 ASP (I might be a bit off on that from memory).
Nowhere have I seen any data that put Huawei near the same ASP as Samsung, and I wouldn't expect to merely from Huawei being later in the market and with weak branding.
What appears to be happening, and I stated this up thread, is that Samsung is seeing impact on it's share from Huawei, but I see little evidence at all of Huawei's impact on Apple. Again, there is a great deal of evidence over a long period of time, that Apple's iPhone market is, for the most part, independent of the Android OS market.
Now, for the sake of forward vision, we have Xiaomi that has pledged a cap of 5% on profits, with the plan of returning anything above that back to it's user, in some fashion, and generating its revenues in services. Yet, when pressed, Avon b7 reported that Xiaomi was actually generating around 3% profits. So once you throw Xiaomi into the mix in the eurozone, and with Samsung obviously going to compete harder against Huawei, I'm not seeing these quests for higher ASP's to actually hold up. Remember, most of the existing smartphone markets are saturated, so there's only so much organic growth the Huawei can expect.
I do think that Huawei has enough premium phones to create a higher ASP, but sales won't touch the numbers for any on Apple's models, and again, Samsung will likely make a concerted effort to compete.
Hence why the unit growth vs revenue growth for Huawei appears, so far, to be all market acquisition, Ie, promotions, and incentives to gain unit share.
I'll be happy to see actual data on Huawei's P20 sales, but I'm not expecting any miracles.
'when pressed'? Ha! You mentioned the point and I gave you an answer to the best of my knowledge, just like I always do. I was not 'pressed'.
I mentioned the cap on net profit simply because it is newsworthy (and quite curious seeing as they plan an IPO).
Huawei isn't a publicly traded company. It is a private company.
ASP isn't even mentioned in its annual financial reporting. That said, there are many research firms offering estimates. I think around 2016 it was on a par with Samsung.
Irrelevant for the consumer though. And, in case you were wondering, I don't work for Huawei and therefore have no shareholder stake. ;-)
Got it.
Yet you are fine with comparing Huawei to Apple, just without any metrics or data except units
Go it.
Lame.
That was a good article.
Yes, there is data. A full annual, audited report. Revenues, profits,...
I quoted from it in this very thread and gave a link to it. Why not give it a read yourself?
You and Avon b7 are fine making assumptions about Huawei's ASP compared to Samsung, yet have provided no numbers. I'm shocked!
On this particular point, no one can provide ASP for Samsung or Huawei phones because ASP is not officially disclosed by both Samsung and Huawei, as far as I know. Even the ASP of $275 specified in DED's article was an estimate, as far as I understand. I don't think Samsung ever discussed about ASP of its phones or willing to disclose that information. With lack of ANY official data from both the parties involved (Samsung and Huawei), I can only go with anecdotal evidence (market share, different models and their price tags etc). On almost all parameters, they both look similar to me. So I don't see how Huawei would have a far smaller ASP than Samsung.
Not a clue on how the profitable the handset business is.
Yes. Around half comes from China - the world's largest handset market. The United States hardly registers. I wonder why? They are pushing hard in other markets. This AI article highlights this fact.
As for profitability. You only need to know what I have already outlined in numerous threads where misinformation has abounded.
They are profitable enough to produce quite possibly the best smartphone on the market right now. Profitable enough to design their own CPUs (with rumours of an in-house GPU coming soon) and move to 7mn. Profitable enough to produce some of the best battery tech on the market. Profitable enough to produce some of the best modems on the market. Profitable enough to invest in AI on their SoC (the next NPU will even allow on-device learning). Profitable enough to be a core contributor to 5G. Profitable enough for much more than you are aware of and able to do it all with a lower ASP than Apple and without being listed as a public company.