Today is not the same as when we were young (if you're older than 40), but I can't tell you where it's gone wrong. I don't know. Maybe we're just trying too hard not to be our parents.
I'm not older than 40, but what I said still stands. I don't mean I don't care what they're doing of course I would care. My point is that were holding their hand all the way up until they go off to College and then they don't have any life skills because mommy and daddy watched their every little move. It is a different world out there, and they need to learn how to interact in that world appropriately. Having a piece of big brother software attached to their phone isn't the right way to do it IMO.
arlomedia said: Anyway, I'm not sure why a developer would need to collect the Apple ID and password, or save it on an outside server. I've never used iCloud storage in my apps, but I assume the SDK does the authentication from the info saved in the device settings, so developers don't have to touch the login info. But parental controls apps have to rely on various odd workarounds to do what they do.
Exactly. That was my question too. Why the heck would this app be collecting the AppleID and password unless it was one incredible hack (which it probably was).
Of course, iOS doesn't help anything by popping up dialogs asking for one's AppleID/password all over the place. It trains users to expect to be asked for it, so they might not even realize when they are giving it to Apple, vs. some poorly written app, vs. being phished.
GeorgeBMac said: One that's different is: When we were kids we grew up and associated with neighborhood kids. Everyone pretty much knew who the bad ones were (although, by today's standards, they generally weren't all that bad!). But today, kids can easily be associated with pretty much anybody and anything in the world -- from the Dahli Lhama to a paedophiles. And, often it's pretty difficult to tell saints from sinners...
This just seems like a useless service to me. There are things in place on iOS that already do similar things. Find my Friends being one of them and you can also have the iPhone set to send the last known location if the phone powers down for some reason. Also, I know on Verizon the bill gives a list of every call received and placed for a specific line. I'm not a parent, but if I were I want to give my child a little privacy and not play big brother with every single aspect of their life. I can't stand parents who want to be in every single aspect of their child's life. We can't hold their hand and keep them from doing every single little thing. Let them get into trouble, make mistakes. This is how they learn. You did it growing up and so did I. We're sending our children into the world being hand held all the way up through life and then we all of a sudden let go and some don't know how to handle themselves in this world.
**gets off soapbox**
I agree a bit with both of these. There absolutely have to be boundaries and a certain amount of 'monitoring' so you can know if the other parenting work you are doing is working or not, so you can do some course-correction. At the same time, it's impossible to monitor everything, so if the foundations aren't in place, it's a hopeless mission of whack-a-mole until they get old enough to just head down the 'bad path' on their own. Plus, if monitoring is done wrong, it just adds a lack of relationship/trust and encourages a likely more tech-savvy kid to get in a game of cat-and-mouse they will likely win.
My own personal take on this is that it's a parents right/duty to interfere or check on what the kids are doing at any time. Mine is pretty young yet, but he knows if I hear something questionable, I'm having him show me what he was watching and we talk about it. It's also important for them to understand that with maturity (not necessarily age) comes privileges and that something 'bad' for a kid might be not as bad or fine for an adult. For example, something that scares kiddo so he won't sleep, might not scare mom/dad so they don't sleep.
And, then whenever possible, lay a foundation that would make a kiddo think for themselves that something is inappropriate or should be questioned (and brought to an adult) on their own. Actually talk to them about these things and why it is inappropriate. That can lead into talking about the difference between things that are always inappropriate vs things that are age-appropriate.
I'm sure it gets trickier as they get older, but I don't think there is any way to keep them in some kind of bubble. And, any efforts I've ever run into to do so tend to lead to worse outcomes. The options aren't..... 1. keep them in a bubble, or 2. let them run wild. Both of those tend to be disasters.
GeorgeBMac said: But, it's not just "the bad guys" out there that parents must worry about:
We have learned from Cambridge Analytica how information can be distorted and twisted to one's purpose in order to shape ideas and perceptions.
Yes, and it's *really*, *really* NOT just Cambridge Analytica! It's everyone from our own governments (yes, there is an actual well-funded department of the US-gov't that works with Hollywood/media to get messages and content into our media, TV, movies, etc.), to well-meaning people with un-thought-through worldviews, to all sorts of intentionally malicious stuff.
gatorguy said: I don't know. Maybe we're just trying too hard not to be our parents.
Yeah, other-ditch-itis seems to be a reoccurring societal tendency.
I have a story about the whole 'hands off' parenting too.
When my wife was in seminary in the SF Bay area, we were at a birthday party for a friend. Another woman was there with her pre-teen daughter. The conversation turned to what my wife was doing and when the mom heard this, she said something like, "Yea, I should probably teach my daughter some of that stuff. We grew up Lutheran, but we figured we'd just let her [daughter] decide for herself what to believe. But, the other day we were in a jewelry store and she noticed a Catholic crucifix and asked what it was. I was shocked that she didn't seem to know anything about Christianity."
I suppose the atheists out there might think that a positive thing, but to be utterly ignorant and unaware of what like 1/3 of the world believes (over 1/2 w/ Islam), much of the last couple millennia of history, the foundations of the societies in which we live, etc. can't be a good thing. And, it isn't like the girl would now be picking from among the options in a well-informed manner, either. She just gets parented by the world-views of the media, movies, classroom, and culture she happens to run into (no matter how right or wrong they might be).
I sort of do think it's a good thing that this young person has no "hereditary" religion. How would it hurt her to not be aware of every facet of every religion at pre-teen age? If it's of no interest to her, then it doesn't matter. Being worldly happens over a great amount of time. She will discover that large percentages of people believe in specific myths over time. Asking what a crucifix is is part of that discovery process just as it would be to ask what a specific food or plant is. She should be taught to exercise her critical thinking ability first and foremost, which is far more important than knowing all the myths people may potentially believe.
dysamoria said: I sort of do think it's a good thing that this young person has no "hereditary" religion. How would it hurt her to not be aware of every facet of every religion at pre-teen age? If it's of no interest to her, then it doesn't matter. Being worldly happens over a great amount of time. She will discover that large percentages of people believe in specific myths over time. Asking what a crucifix is is part of that discovery process just as it would be to ask what a specific food or plant is. She should be taught to exercise her critical thinking ability first and foremost, which is far more important than knowing all the myths people may potentially believe.
The problem with this, IMO, is that it is kind of a fallacy of there being a neutral from which to explore. For example, her parents had already communicated something quite crucial in their non-approach, in that religion isn't really important enough to be concerned with or teach her about. Whatever one's world-view, truth should be of prime importance.
Also, the world and today's education don't necessarily push critical thinking skills that I've seen. It's just other forms of indoctrination (not that indoctrination in it's negative sense is ever good, no matter who is doing it!)... i.e.: what to think, not how to think. So, these kids end up filling in the blank with crazy YouTube videos and such, these days.
I think a better way is to be serious about your beliefs, but teach kids to pursue the truth, wherever that might lead. If you don't think your own worldview is true, and thus, worth making every effort to teach people (including your kids!), then maybe it's time for a bit more reflection about what the truth really is.
Also, I have to say that in the US especially, eduction of religion, world-view, and even history is pretty poor. We're currently enjoying going through various Rick Riordan's mythology based books, and while it's fiction, it does provide some foundation. Also, (I was educated up until grad school in USA) it is my understanding that many other Western countries have world-religion type course as part of the curriculum. I think that's really good, just in terms of cultural understanding. I rarely meet anyone who is knowledgable enough in any world religion (even often their own!), enough to critique it or others.
And... I wouldn't consider not being aware of Jesus or the basic narrative of Christianity in a Western society as "every facet of every religion." I too, am a bit shocked (like the mom) that the school system failed her quite that badly. Of course, given the context of San Francisco, a lot of the teachers probably think it's 'freedom from religion' instead of 'freedom of religion.'
But, in context of this article... if parents spent more time imparting their values, really teaching the reasons behind them, and building a good communicative relationship with their kids, they'd need to be less concerned with trying to build the bubble (or wall) up.
This turned into a really interesting conversation!
Might be some hope for this site after all.
What is interesting is how this went from being Teensafe’s fault, to what Apple should be doing, as if Apple is now the cure for the world’s ills.
Apple has Find My Friends which can help keep tabs on your kids location (for their safety, not for spying). Everything else is down to parenting, no excuses.
I know now a couple who have raised a pair of the most fantastic kids ever. She looks after horses, he builds houses. They’re not fabulously wealthy. They have sacrificed their time and that is all. They have taught their kids the value of money as soon as they could count. Every day, rain or shine, the kids have to go outside. They taught them to respect their elders and their peers, and that education comes first.
They paid for their own iPads by taking odd jobs around the area. When they hit a target, the folks added a little bit on top. (This was to demonstrate how it was better to save than take out a loan. This is also the one concession they agreed one: the parents pay interest above the Bank of England base rate).
Mrs Rayz2016 is proud to have these kids as godchildren.
Having said all that though, any app that requires disabling authentication should never have been allowed on the App Store. Apple should have removed it.
This turned into a really interesting conversation!
Might be some hope for this site after all.
What is interesting is how this went from being Teensafe’s fault, to what Apple should be doing, as if Apple is now the cure for the world’s ills.
Apple has Find My Friends which can help keep tabs on your kids location (for their safety, not for spying). Everything else is down to parenting, no excuses.
I know now a couple who have raised a pair of the most fantastic kids ever. She looks after horses, he builds houses. They’re not fabulously wealthy. They have sacrificed their time and that is all. They have taught their kids the value of money as soon as they could count. Every day, rain or shine, the kids have to go outside. They taught them to respect their elders and their peers, and that education comes first.
They paid for their own iPads by taking odd jobs around the area. When they hit a target, the folks added a little bit on top. (This was to demonstrate how it was better to save than take out a loan. This is also the one concession they agreed one: the parents pay interest above the Bank of England base rate).
Mrs Rayz2016 is proud to have these kids as godchildren.
Having said all that though, any app that requires disabling authentication should never have been allowed on the App Store. Apple should have removed it.
Well... No...
Find My Friends is good, but not sufficient....
Today's internet and social media is dangerous for adults. But for kids, it's like sending them out to wonder whatever city streets and neighborhoods they might like to explore -- all on their own. "Hey! Let's try that Crack House!" or "Hey! Look! An ISIS bomb making site!". Or maybe: "This anonymous internet person has become my very best friend, "she" is so sweet and so nice! And "she" said she wants to meet me in person!"
Or, even putting the personal danger aside, then we have socioogic danger: We saw in the last election how Cambridge Analytica and Russian professionals manipulated adult minds with their disinformation and propaganda. But, ISIS uses similar techniques to manipulate and recruit younger minds. But they are certainly not alone or unique.
... Why would you care about your kid going to a physical ISIS meeting but not care about them associating with them online?
(And, I'm using ISIS as a placeholder for any of the undesirable cults and organizations that are flourishing today)
Nope, sorry... Apple needs to provide parents with the tools to monitor what their kids are doing out in that jungle...
Claiming that that makes Apple the parent or doing the job of the parents is just not correct....
I'd really like to see Apple incorporate additional sandbox-like testing in their App approval process to detect whether apps submitted for approval "leak" any Apple product attributed private data as part of their data storage and retrieval services, like sending Apple Id credentials in cleartext over any outbound communication connection.
Apple already requires that HTTP communication between the app and an outside service use HTTPS. The network functions in the SDK don't work otherwise. But they have no way to control what the developers do with the data later, as was the problem in this case.
Anyway, I'm not sure why a developer would need to collect the Apple ID and password, or save it on an outside server. I've never used iCloud storage in my apps, but I assume the SDK does the authentication from the info saved in the device settings, so developers don't have to touch the login info. But parental controls apps have to rely on various odd workarounds to do what they do.
Thanks for clarifying this. So this app is using a secure channel to move private Apple associated account information off the device and then storing the private data unencrypted on their own servers. Very bad. Yeah, nothing much Apple can do to prevent this other than not allowing the offending app access to the data in a directly consumable format. The app requiring two factor authentication to be disabled on the device grants them unchallenged access to the kingdom. Apple could disallow disabling of 2FA but it would probably lead to usability issues with headless services. This particular app may have been a little less sleazy they had used an app specific password instead of bypassing 2FA.
Comments
Also, the world and today's education don't necessarily push critical thinking skills that I've seen. It's just other forms of indoctrination (not that indoctrination in it's negative sense is ever good, no matter who is doing it!)... i.e.: what to think, not how to think. So, these kids end up filling in the blank with crazy YouTube videos and such, these days.
I think a better way is to be serious about your beliefs, but teach kids to pursue the truth, wherever that might lead. If you don't think your own worldview is true, and thus, worth making every effort to teach people (including your kids!), then maybe it's time for a bit more reflection about what the truth really is.
Also, I have to say that in the US especially, eduction of religion, world-view, and even history is pretty poor. We're currently enjoying going through various Rick Riordan's mythology based books, and while it's fiction, it does provide some foundation. Also, (I was educated up until grad school in USA) it is my understanding that many other Western countries have world-religion type course as part of the curriculum. I think that's really good, just in terms of cultural understanding. I rarely meet anyone who is knowledgable enough in any world religion (even often their own!), enough to critique it or others.
And... I wouldn't consider not being aware of Jesus or the basic narrative of Christianity in a Western society as "every facet of every religion." I too, am a bit shocked (like the mom) that the school system failed her quite that badly. Of course, given the context of San Francisco, a lot of the teachers probably think it's 'freedom from religion' instead of 'freedom of religion.'
But, in context of this article... if parents spent more time imparting their values, really teaching the reasons behind them, and building a good communicative relationship with their kids, they'd need to be less concerned with trying to build the bubble (or wall) up.
This turned into a really interesting conversation!
Might be some hope for this site after all.
What is interesting is how this went from being Teensafe’s fault, to what Apple should be doing, as if Apple is now the cure for the world’s ills.
Apple has Find My Friends which can help keep tabs on your kids location (for their safety, not for spying). Everything else is down to parenting, no excuses.
I know now a couple who have raised a pair of the most fantastic kids ever. She looks after horses, he builds houses. They’re not fabulously wealthy. They have sacrificed their time and that is all. They have taught their kids the value of money as soon as they could count. Every day, rain or shine, the kids have to go outside. They taught them to respect their elders and their peers, and that education comes first.
They paid for their own iPads by taking odd jobs around the area. When they hit a target, the folks added a little bit on top. (This was to demonstrate how it was better to save than take out a loan. This is also the one concession they agreed one: the parents pay interest above the Bank of England base rate).
Mrs Rayz2016 is proud to have these kids as godchildren.
Having said all that though, any app that requires disabling authentication should never have been allowed on the App Store. Apple should have removed it.
(And, I'm using ISIS as a placeholder for any of the undesirable cults and organizations that are flourishing today)