The really clever part is how they’ve tricked us all for the big reveal; the screen will be external as an internal screen makes no sense and probably won’t fold as well. Folded, only half the screen is active with subtle live textures on the ‘back’ but opened the whole thing becomes a tablet. Without much tablet software, shame.
I don't think Samsung expect this to be a mass market device. They'll price it high, make limited quantities and attract people that accept that it is a 1.0 device. Eventually, like the edge display, it'll become a useful part of a future phone. Samsung aren't Apple - for starters they are happy to throw things at the wall and second they are a component manufacturer and realise they need to put new, untested tech out in the wild before their component buyers are willing to do the same.
Foldable displays are the new 3D. Lauded only by a lazy tech press and astroturfers on Mac Rumors. It’s going to maybe 15 or 20 years before someone releases a foldable display that lives up to the hype, and even then I’m sure there will be many people with no interest in getting one.
There have been two problems with folding OLED screens, even though we’ve seen examples of them during trade shows for several years, from several vendors.
one is that OLED is very sensitive to moisture, and plastic allows enfiltration of moisture. That’s been a major reason Win 10 they’re bonded to glass. The second is that even if the bending area doesn’t fail in some way, the surface isn’t glass, so it’s going to go back to the bad old days of highly scratched screens.
will consumers accept this?
You are assuming glass can’t bend.
There isn’t any glass that can bend flat as would be required for this purpose. In the lab, there are lots of glasses, but they are either way too expensive to use, or have some other major flaw, such as being very soft. Remember that we’re talking about something that has to bend over itself with no more than about an 0.125” radius. And it has to do it hundreds of times, maybe thousands. There is also the spring pressure from bending glass. The more you try to close the two halves, the more it will resist that bending. How hard would a glass covered screen be to fold up, assuming hat it could be made in the first place, which I doubt highly?
Tomorrow is my last day at an engineered plastics firm, I have seen some crazy tech, but Melgross is correct. There are some graphene solutions coming down the pipeline, not this capable and not even approaching affordable. There’s nothing currently available that can provide a durable, transparent and seamless design. Both glass and plastic have a finite amount of bends (some opaque plastics can reach 500 bends before failing), the seam needs to register touch events, and the device must be able to survive at least a 3-4ft drop.
The last phone is more plausible than the folded phone, but still no screen protection. Even with an abrasion resistant coating (the only cost effective option) you’re only temporarily delaying the inevitable.
I appreciate Samsung getting everyone excited about technology, but this is vapor-ware at our current position on the Technology Curve. What’s needed is at the bleeding edge, Shape Memory Polymers (SMP). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape-memory_polymer
There have been two problems with folding OLED screens, even though we’ve seen examples of them during trade shows for several years, from several vendors.
one is that OLED is very sensitive to moisture, and plastic allows enfiltration of moisture. That’s been a major reason Win 10 they’re bonded to glass. The second is that even if the bending area doesn’t fail in some way, the surface isn’t glass, so it’s going to go back to the bad old days of highly scratched screens.
will consumers accept this?
With any luck, the phones would probably explode before they get scratched!
I used to work in Plastics and some of them act as a hinge, but the seem will become visible over time and has more time of around 200-500 bends depending on the formulation, and it’s not perfectly clear.
what if you drop your phone, and BendGate all over again!
I’d hate to be the first to buy and experience this Frankensteinien monster.
Sorry, but I don't see what all the whining is about. There are times when I need just my phone, and a smaller screen and other times when it would be nice to have a larger screen. Right now I have an iPhone and an iPad Mini. Together, they meet all my needs. What's so terrible about having one device that would work as both? As for the technical hurdles, are we really in a position to still say "it can't be made to work" or "it'll be awful"?? After all we've seen in the past 5 or 10 years? I don't like Samsung any more than the next guy (or the next ten guys), but I'd rather see this and then decide.
Samsung has a habit of coming out with features that either don’t work well, or don’t work at all. Just read some reviews of their phones and you’ll see. Of course, that fact is generally overlooked once the review is over.
the question with this device is whether it’s real, or just a technology concept. If the latter, then it’s there to judge reactions, not to serve as an actual product preview.
but the difficulties of making something like this, which is almost considered to be the holy grail of smartphone screens, are real. For those who were either too young to be familiar with plastic screens on smartphones, where you had to interact with your screen directly, or not interested in the phones back then, going back to plastic would be quite a revelation. We NEEDED screen protectors back then. Now, with companies trying to convince us that we need tempered glass protectors and other crap, even though we don’t, they would have a field day with this. The problem, of course, would be how you get a flexible protector to bend enough in the middle to not cause a problem. Glass is out, because you would need two pieces, and with the middle needing a good 0.25” of bend room, you’d have a big slice in the middle not protected.
what a mess!
people would also complain that opening up their phones to use them for something quick, such as reading notifications, is a real pain. So it would need a screen on the outside too, if for nothing else than for basic phone and notification purposes. This will make the phone thicker, heavier and much more expensive than the expensive product it will be anyway.
sometimes you can’t just say that we’ve seen a lot of things in the past ten years, so why not this too? Not every product is practical, or if it is, it may be very expensive, or too ahead of the technology needed to produce it. I see a lot of patents that are great, but the technology to produce something using the patent isn’t there yet. I think I read somewhere that Samsung is stating that the surface of this screen is as hard as Gorrila Glass, or something to that effect. I don’t see how that is possible.
There are hard coatings for plastics, such as these used as windows and for eyeglass lenses. But this coating are either expensive, or are effective for something that just gets dirty, like a window outside, that doesn’t get rubbed much. Those coatings wear off. They’re also not as hard as hardened glass in the practical sense, because they’re just a couple of thou thick. The substrate is soft, and so scratches push their way into the coating and the substrate beneath. Anyone who uses hard anodized aluminum is familiar with the problem.
I understand what you're saying, but my point is: what's to be gained from denying this will ever happen? I realize that this is a very pro-Apple forum and therefore very anti-Samsung, but why not wait and see? The world of innovation is full of people saying that things could never happen/work: "No one can travel at more than 20 MPH. They'll get nosebleeds." (yes, people once believed this.) "No one wants to watch a TV station that has only news, 24 hours a day." "No one will ever need more than 640K of memory." "No one will ever pay $1000 for a phone.", etc., etc., etc. All I'm saying is wait and see. Is there any harm in that? Maybe this time Samsung will actually deliver! (you can stop laughing now 😂).
Those bendy screens are very cool. Seems like it should be possible to do something better with them than a folding smartphone. Like a future Apple Watch.
Funny how Apple fanboys are already trashing an unreleased product, with no real information. If it was Apple, I'm sure the fanboys would be drooling: "YESSS!! Finally! There is absolutely a need and a market for such a device! Genius! Revolutionary!"
I don't think Samsung expect this to be a mass market device. They'll price it high, make limited quantities and attract people that accept that it is a 1.0 device. Eventually, like the edge display, it'll become a useful part of a future phone. Samsung aren't Apple - for starters they are happy to throw things at the wall and second they are a component manufacturer and realise they need to put new, untested tech out in the wild before their component buyers are willing to do the same.
The Edge display has not become useful. It’s distracting, because even though Samsung had less graphics and lettering spill over that curved edge than originally, that first year, where there were a lot of complaints over it, nothing has come out to use that edge.
the only thing that really happens is that the edge of the display will pulse on a different color if a notification, or perhaps a phone call comes in. But that’s only useful if you put your phone face down on a surface, which isn’t a smart thing to do. My friend who has one does put it down that way, but only after he bought (using a typical 2 for 1 offer) first the 7 and now, the 9. Previously, he would never do that. It seems to us sitting at the table with him that he does it on purpose to show the edge change color.
I suppose there are apps that try try to use the edge of the screen for something useful, but I’ve never seen one. It’s a very minor feature that looks cool, but isn’t worth much in practice.
Sorry, but I don't see what all the whining is about. There are times when I need just my phone, and a smaller screen and other times when it would be nice to have a larger screen. Right now I have an iPhone and an iPad Mini. Together, they meet all my needs. What's so terrible about having one device that would work as both? As for the technical hurdles, are we really in a position to still say "it can't be made to work" or "it'll be awful"?? After all we've seen in the past 5 or 10 years? I don't like Samsung any more than the next guy (or the next ten guys), but I'd rather see this and then decide.
Samsung has a habit of coming out with features that either don’t work well, or don’t work at all. Just read some reviews of their phones and you’ll see. Of course, that fact is generally overlooked once the review is over.
the question with this device is whether it’s real, or just a technology concept. If the latter, then it’s there to judge reactions, not to serve as an actual product preview.
but the difficulties of making something like this, which is almost considered to be the holy grail of smartphone screens, are real. For those who were either too young to be familiar with plastic screens on smartphones, where you had to interact with your screen directly, or not interested in the phones back then, going back to plastic would be quite a revelation. We NEEDED screen protectors back then. Now, with companies trying to convince us that we need tempered glass protectors and other crap, even though we don’t, they would have a field day with this. The problem, of course, would be how you get a flexible protector to bend enough in the middle to not cause a problem. Glass is out, because you would need two pieces, and with the middle needing a good 0.25” of bend room, you’d have a big slice in the middle not protected.
what a mess!
people would also complain that opening up their phones to use them for something quick, such as reading notifications, is a real pain. So it would need a screen on the outside too, if for nothing else than for basic phone and notification purposes. This will make the phone thicker, heavier and much more expensive than the expensive product it will be anyway.
sometimes you can’t just say that we’ve seen a lot of things in the past ten years, so why not this too? Not every product is practical, or if it is, it may be very expensive, or too ahead of the technology needed to produce it. I see a lot of patents that are great, but the technology to produce something using the patent isn’t there yet. I think I read somewhere that Samsung is stating that the surface of this screen is as hard as Gorrila Glass, or something to that effect. I don’t see how that is possible.
There are hard coatings for plastics, such as these used as windows and for eyeglass lenses. But this coating are either expensive, or are effective for something that just gets dirty, like a window outside, that doesn’t get rubbed much. Those coatings wear off. They’re also not as hard as hardened glass in the practical sense, because they’re just a couple of thou thick. The substrate is soft, and so scratches push their way into the coating and the substrate beneath. Anyone who uses hard anodized aluminum is familiar with the problem.
I understand what you're saying, but my point is: what's to be gained from denying this will ever happen? I realize that this is a very pro-Apple forum and therefore very anti-Samsung, but why not wait and see? The world of innovation is full of people saying that things could never happen/work: "No one can travel at more than 20 MPH. They'll get nosebleeds." (yes, people once believed this.) "No one wants to watch a TV station that has only news, 24 hours a day." "No one will ever need more than 640K of memory." "No one will ever pay $1000 for a phone.", etc., etc., etc. All I'm saying is wait and see. Is there any harm in that? Maybe this time Samsung will actually deliver! (you can stop laughing now 😂).
I didn’t say that this will NEVER happen. But if you’re familiar with the display technologies and materials, you would see that making a prototype, and showing it around is relatively easy. After all, bendable OLED displays have been shown for over five years, for full color, and well over that for green or orange/yellow displays. So there’s nothing all that new about it except for improvements.
but the fundamental problems still exist, even if Samsung has minimized them. The scratchability of these displays is all too real, like it or not. The problems with long term tight bending is real.
you may not be happy about that, and may want to ascribe talking about these real problems as the chatter of people on an Apple-centric site as unfair, but it’s not.
so, people, according to you, are just supposed to sit around, twiddling their thumbs every time a company announced something that is either unlikely to appear as a real product, or will appear as a flawed one? That’s unreal! We criticize Apple’s products as well. But at least those are released products. Apple doesn’t discuss a product until it’s some thing they will definitely have, in advance, such as the iPhone and tablet.
samsung is showing this around, so it’s fit to be admired, or criticized. I’ve worked with numerous materials over the decades. I’m familiar with the various technologies too. If Samsung made some serious breakthrough here, then I applaud it, but most likely, they have not. Such is the history of Samsung.
if you bother to read real reviews of products, not the short articles that are pushed as reviews but are rather just the reading of the manufacturer’s spec and feature lists masquerading as a real review, you’ll notice that samsung makes many claims for features that either don’t work well, or don’t work at all. They are shameless in that, and are well known for it. So when they show something around, and make some dubious claims, there’s a good reason to discuss whether those claims can stand up.
if Samsung does release this, as a real mass manufactured product, we’ll have a better idea as to its worth. Until then, we have a right to be skeptical.
Funny how Apple fanboys are already trashing an unreleased product, with no real information. If it was Apple, I'm sure the fanboys would be drooling: "YESSS!! Finally! There is absolutely a need and a market for such a device! Genius! Revolutionary!"
That’s the problem - there’s no real information. We don’t know whether Samsung ism just showing a prototype that won’t actually work in the field, or a pre-production product. When Apple announces something, and they rarely do in advance, it’s for a real product that will be produced, and becomes available when they say it will. They announce the price then as well. Samsung is being very coy about this, they are telling us very little.
its certainly not genius, as you shou,d know, because there’s nothing here we haven’t seen for years in trade shows, other than they took the display that they, and a number of other manufacturers have been showing, and put it into a device, instead of having it displayed in a bending machine, which is what I normally see in these trade shows.
is it revolutionary, well, not really, it’s a major advance, if real, though, and it works well.
“if Samsung does release this, as a real mass manufactured product, we’ll have a better idea as to its worth. Until then, we have a right to be skeptical.”
Skeptical yes, of course. A healthy dose of doubt is good. What I object to is people declaring that this will never work, etc., etc.
Let’s leave the definitive statements until it’s released and crashes and burns. (Oops, bad expression!).
“if Samsung does release this, as a real mass manufactured product, we’ll have a better idea as to its worth. Until then, we have a right to be skeptical.”
Skeptical yes, of course. A healthy dose of doubt is good. What I object to is people declaring that this will never work, etc., etc.
Let’s leave the definitive statements until it’s released and crashes and burns. (Oops, bad expression!).
I agree that people shouldn’t say that it will never work. But right now, skepticism is warranted.
Funny how Apple fanboys are already trashing an unreleased product, with no real information. If it was Apple, I'm sure the fanboys would be drooling: "YESSS!! Finally! There is absolutely a need and a market for such a device! Genius! Revolutionary!"
We pick Apple because they produce genuine, viable products so we have little tolerance for vapourware.
I ordered my Courier years ago, still waiting Microsoft! How am I supposed to get anything done when my Google Jetpack arrives?!
Comments
The last phone is more plausible than the folded phone, but still no screen protection. Even with an abrasion resistant coating (the only cost effective option) you’re only temporarily delaying the inevitable.
I appreciate Samsung getting everyone excited about technology, but this is vapor-ware at our current position on the Technology Curve. What’s needed is at the bleeding edge, Shape Memory Polymers (SMP).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape-memory_polymer
What, she's expecting you to pull out a condom after you open your phone (like a wallet)?
With any luck, the phones would probably explode before they get scratched!
The world of innovation is full of people saying that things could never happen/work: "No one can travel at more than 20 MPH. They'll get nosebleeds." (yes, people once believed this.) "No one wants to watch a TV station that has only news, 24 hours a day." "No one will ever need more than 640K of memory." "No one will ever pay $1000 for a phone.", etc., etc., etc.
All I'm saying is wait and see. Is there any harm in that? Maybe this time Samsung will actually deliver! (you can stop laughing now 😂).
the only thing that really happens is that the edge of the display will pulse on a different color if a notification, or perhaps a phone call comes in. But that’s only useful if you put your phone face down on a surface, which isn’t a smart thing to do. My friend who has one does put it down that way, but only after he bought (using a typical 2 for 1 offer) first the 7 and now, the 9. Previously, he would never do that. It seems to us sitting at the table with him that he does it on purpose to show the edge change color.
I suppose there are apps that try try to use the edge of the screen for something useful, but I’ve never seen one. It’s a very minor feature that looks cool, but isn’t worth much in practice.
but the fundamental problems still exist, even if Samsung has minimized them. The scratchability of these displays is all too real, like it or not. The problems with long term tight bending is real.
you may not be happy about that, and may want to ascribe talking about these real problems as the chatter of people on an Apple-centric site as unfair, but it’s not.
so, people, according to you, are just supposed to sit around, twiddling their thumbs every time a company announced something that is either unlikely to appear as a real product, or will appear as a flawed one? That’s unreal! We criticize Apple’s products as well. But at least those are released products. Apple doesn’t discuss a product until it’s some thing they will definitely have, in advance, such as the iPhone and tablet.
samsung is showing this around, so it’s fit to be admired, or criticized. I’ve worked with numerous materials over the decades. I’m familiar with the various technologies too. If Samsung made some serious breakthrough here, then I applaud it, but most likely, they have not. Such is the history of Samsung.
if you bother to read real reviews of products, not the short articles that are pushed as reviews but are rather just the reading of the manufacturer’s spec and feature lists masquerading as a real review, you’ll notice that samsung makes many claims for features that either don’t work well, or don’t work at all. They are shameless in that, and are well known for it. So when they show something around, and make some dubious claims, there’s a good reason to discuss whether those claims can stand up.
if Samsung does release this, as a real mass manufactured product, we’ll have a better idea as to its worth. Until then, we have a right to be skeptical.
its certainly not genius, as you shou,d know, because there’s nothing here we haven’t seen for years in trade shows, other than they took the display that they, and a number of other manufacturers have been showing, and put it into a device, instead of having it displayed in a bending machine, which is what I normally see in these trade shows.
is it revolutionary, well, not really, it’s a major advance, if real, though, and it works well.
Skeptical yes, of course. A healthy dose of doubt is good. What I object to is people declaring that this will never work, etc., etc.
Let’s leave the definitive statements until it’s released and crashes and burns. (Oops, bad expression!).
I ordered my Courier years ago, still waiting Microsoft! How am I supposed to get anything done when my Google Jetpack arrives?!