How Apple Pay beat the odds because of great design

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 49
    mike1mike1 Posts: 1,941member
    Soli said:
    rowjimmy said:
     I hate that most places I use Apple Pay still require a signature or a PIN. 
    There’s a small grocery store near me that requires a signature for anything over $25. Meanwhile, the diner next door hasn’t required a signature yet, though my bill is seldom over $40.  The grocery store I frequent more doesn’t require a signature for under $150 (at minimum). I went to Costco last week, $144, no signature. 

    And I have never in 4 years had to enter a PIN, 
    I've never had to enter a PIN, but I've also never used anything but a credit card for Apple Pay. Signature requirements are definitely wonky and now standardized.
    I often need to enter a PIN for debit purchases. Probably the floor limits that the store has or has set up.
  • Reply 42 of 49
    crowley said:
    The article says “Chiefly because other countries were already moving to contactless payments, it's more common that Apple Pay just works there.”

    I’d like to know who these countries are. I travel to Paris a lot. ApplePay almost never works, despite the fact that there are NFC-enabled POS terminals everywhere. It doesn’t work in my travels (admittedly less frequent) to India, the Netherlands or the U.K.  

    ApplePay underachieves globally relative to potential. Period.
    ApplePay works pretty much everywhere in the UK.  I wonder if your issue might be the card, do you use American Express?  Most of Europe is a Mastercard/VISA lock in, so maybe that's your issue?
    You may have hit the nail on head...
  • Reply 43 of 49


    What card is in your Apple Pay?
    See above. I should have tried the Visa that I also have on there  :-/


    chia
  • Reply 44 of 49
    The article says “Chiefly because other countries were already moving to contactless payments, it's more common that Apple Pay just works there.”

    I’d like to know who these countries are. I travel to Paris a lot. ApplePay almost never works, despite the fact that there are NFC-enabled POS terminals everywhere. It doesn’t work in my travels (admittedly less frequent) to India, the Netherlands or the U.K.  

    ApplePay underachieves globally relative to potential. Period.
    In Australia it was accepted almost everywhere instantly because of our tap and go systems. But we couldn't get an ApplePay account unless we had an accepted US credit card so we had to wait (and even today our major banks won't partner). 

    I was surprised at Tim Cook demonstrating people using a magnetic stripe, and a signature... I thought he was deliberately showing how it was used 5 years back. We had been inserting cards and using a pin, and that was transitioning to the tap system. 

    But one thing that doesn't work overseas is debit cards. Apple Pay hooks into Amex or MasterCard or Visa or our debut card system EFTPOS - but if your ApplePay is using an EFTPOS card it won't work internationally because the international system doesn't recognised eftpos. 

    What card is in your Apple Pay?
    When ApplePay was introduced swipe cards had most all of the market here in the U.S.    Chip cards were starting to be issued, but vendors had yet to install the new terminals.
  • Reply 45 of 49
    CuJoYYC said:
    Get thee to a copy editor … STAT! (Too many issues to lost here.)
    Glass houses...   ROFL....
    anantksundarambonobob
  • Reply 46 of 49
    SoliSoli Posts: 9,360member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:

    avon b7 said:
    "At launch, though, this feature is only going to be available to people in the United States. 

    Doubtlessly it will spread to other markets but for now, America has a lead on payment technology -- and it's all because of Apple."

    Is this a reference to 'cash' transfers using a phone? 

    That can already be done with apps like Twyp or Bizum. And using Siri too.

    Is there a difference between what those apps are doing and what the feature will offer?
    Yes, security and safety, but you already know that.
    Mobile 'cash' payments have existed in Spain since 2016. Bizum is operated by 23 Spanish banks and the Bank of Spain is involved, but the article mentioned the 'feature' which I took to mean 'cash' payments, not the security or safety (which would be irrelevant bin this case as no cards are even in play).
    You asked what the difference was and @Soli replied “security and safety”. I’m not sure why that would be irrelevant due to no cards being in play. How does Bizum verify the identity of the user (Especially if it’s possible to send cash with Siri)?

    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:

    avon b7 said:
    "At launch, though, this feature is only going to be available to people in the United States. 

    Doubtlessly it will spread to other markets but for now, America has a lead on payment technology -- and it's all because of Apple."

    Is this a reference to 'cash' transfers using a phone? 

    That can already be done with apps like Twyp or Bizum. And using Siri too.

    Is there a difference between what those apps are doing and what the feature will offer?
    Yes, security and safety, but you already know that.
    In Apple Pay, Apple is the 'man in the middle' and as such geets a fee. Bizum doesn't have anyone in the middle. It's you and your bank (using standard communications technology).
    Yes, Apple gets a cut of Apple Pay transactions. But I don’t think they do for Apple Pay Cash transactions. If I send $10 to someone $10 comes out of my account and they receive $10. There isn’t some extra charge being removed somewhere. 

    FWIW, if I receive $10 via Apple Pay Cash I can immediately turn around and spend that same $10 using my Apple Pay Cash card in Wallet using Apple Pay. I don’t have to transfer it somewhere else, I just choose that card to make the payment. Does Bizum do that?
    Cards, especially non-EMV cards, were open to abuse. With bizum, it is your account and you use your phone number and phone to identify yourself authenticating using passcode, TouchID, FaceID etc (just like Apple Pay), so how is Apple Pay offering more security and safety if the identification process is identical? No card information needs to be stored on the phone, everything is at the bank. All you need to do is prove it is you originating the transaction using standard mobile technology.
    To be clear, there's no Secure Element not the device… but you say Apple Pay isn't as secure or safe. Sure¡

    You say all the info is at the bank, which means the device needs to be connected to the internet using "standard mobile technology" so that you can access your account at the bank? Apple Pay doesn't have this requirement post setup because Apple Pay is more secure and more safer. And don't act like you've never heard of SIM jacking and they try to pimp a transactional service that pairs a mobile number with a bank account. I'll stick with Apple's far superior solutions that protects the user.

    It doesn't look like it can do anything but transfer money between individuals so how exactly is that the same as Apple Pay? It's not! So you have a less safe and less secure system that's tied to a cell phone number instead of of the bank creating a separate, random, 16-digit card number to tie to Apple Pay for each new device in which you set it up with (which includes re-adding that card on that device) and all being stored on the Secure Element of the device, but you want use to believe that a system that requires internet access and requires the very very weak link of the cellphone number and yet can only do P2P payments is somehow superior to Apple Pay. Good one¡
    edited September 2018 GeorgeBMacanantksundaram
  • Reply 47 of 49
    glynhglynh Posts: 132member
    The article says “Chiefly because other countries were already moving to contactless payments, it's more common that Apple Pay just works there.”

    I’d like to know who these countries are. I travel to Paris a lot. ApplePay almost never works, despite the fact that there are NFC-enabled POS terminals everywhere. It doesn’t work in my travels (admittedly less frequent) to India, the Netherlands or the U.K.  

    ApplePay underachieves globally relative to potential. Period.
    Not sure what card you have registered to Apple Pay but it works almost everywhere in the UK!

    In many places there is also no £30 contactless limit and I can fill up with fuel at any Shell garage, pay for shopping in Waitrose & Aldi for example although not Tesco last time I tried although they do accept up to £30.

    I also travel extensively across Europe and I can’t remember the last time I had an issue with Apple Pay apart from where they place some of the RFID readers on the terminal hard up against a counter or merchandise and I have to twist my wrist to some acute angle just to get close enough to the thing for it to register.

    Many vendors are still shocked when I pay with my Watch or don’t know the £30 contactless limit doesn’t apply to Apple Pay!

    The simple fact that Apple Pay often doesn’t have a transaction limit tells me all I need to know about security compared to even well established card payments.

    That and the fact that it is not possible for a fraudster to skim the card while it is in a pocket only adds to my peace of mind when it comes to Apple Pay.
    edited September 2018 Rocwurst
  • Reply 48 of 49
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,295member
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:

    avon b7 said:
    "At launch, though, this feature is only going to be available to people in the United States. 

    Doubtlessly it will spread to other markets but for now, America has a lead on payment technology -- and it's all because of Apple."

    Is this a reference to 'cash' transfers using a phone? 

    That can already be done with apps like Twyp or Bizum. And using Siri too.

    Is there a difference between what those apps are doing and what the feature will offer?
    Yes, security and safety, but you already know that.
    Mobile 'cash' payments have existed in Spain since 2016. Bizum is operated by 23 Spanish banks and the Bank of Spain is involved, but the article mentioned the 'feature' which I took to mean 'cash' payments, not the security or safety (which would be irrelevant bin this case as no cards are even in play).
    You asked what the difference was and @Soli replied “security and safety”. I’m not sure why that would be irrelevant due to no cards being in play. How does Bizum verify the identity of the user (Especially if it’s possible to send cash with Siri)?

    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:

    avon b7 said:
    "At launch, though, this feature is only going to be available to people in the United States. 

    Doubtlessly it will spread to other markets but for now, America has a lead on payment technology -- and it's all because of Apple."

    Is this a reference to 'cash' transfers using a phone? 

    That can already be done with apps like Twyp or Bizum. And using Siri too.

    Is there a difference between what those apps are doing and what the feature will offer?
    Yes, security and safety, but you already know that.
    In Apple Pay, Apple is the 'man in the middle' and as such geets a fee. Bizum doesn't have anyone in the middle. It's you and your bank (using standard communications technology).
    Yes, Apple gets a cut of Apple Pay transactions. But I don’t think they do for Apple Pay Cash transactions. If I send $10 to someone $10 comes out of my account and they receive $10. There isn’t some extra charge being removed somewhere. 

    FWIW, if I receive $10 via Apple Pay Cash I can immediately turn around and spend that same $10 using my Apple Pay Cash card in Wallet using Apple Pay. I don’t have to transfer it somewhere else, I just choose that card to make the payment. Does Bizum do that?
    Cards, especially non-EMV cards, were open to abuse. With bizum, it is your account and you use your phone number and phone to identify yourself authenticating using passcode, TouchID, FaceID etc (just like Apple Pay), so how is Apple Pay offering more security and safety if the identification process is identical? No card information needs to be stored on the phone, everything is at the bank. All you need to do is prove it is you originating the transaction using standard mobile technology.
    To be clear, there's no Secure Element not the device… but you say Apple Pay isn't as secure or safe. Sure¡

    You say all the info is at the bank, which means the device needs to be connected to the internet using "standard mobile technology" so that you can access your account at the bank? Apple Pay doesn't have this requirement post setup because Apple Pay is more secure and more safer. And don't act like you've never heard of SIM jacking and they try to pimp a transactional service that pairs a mobile number with a bank account. I'll stick with Apple's far superior solutions that protects the user.

    It doesn't look like it can do anything but transfer money between individuals so how exactly is that the same as Apple Pay? It's not! So you have a less safe and less secure system that's tied to a cell phone number instead of of the bank creating a separate, random, 16-digit card number to tie to Apple Pay for each new device in which you set it up with (which includes re-adding that card on that device) and all being stored on the Secure Element of the device, but you want use to believe that a system that requires internet access and requires the very very weak link of the cellphone number and yet can only do P2P payments is somehow superior to Apple Pay. Good one¡
    You lost the plot I fear. Rewind 

    I asked a legitimate question because from the article, the point I was raising wasn't clear.

    This point was on the 'cash' aspect, Apple Pay Cash and not Apple Pay. Would it be ironic if I said you knew that already?

    So off you go to bark up the wrong tree.

    You do not need a card, just an account and a phone number. Nothing goes anywhere near the secure enclave because there is no need for it, at least as far as I'm aware but that was partly why I asked the question in the first place and got your smart arse answer as a result. I mentioned the man in the middle simply because in the case of systems like bizum there appears to be none. It is the client sending 'cash' to another person but using the app on the smart phone. 

    As for the internal working, I do not know (again, that's partly why I asked but you don't know either) but in terms of sending 'cash' to another user, this system has been in place here since 2016 and seems to be plenty secure. And if the receiving person doesn't have a bank account and simply needs hard cash, the money can be made available at an ATM. The user doesn't need a card to withdraw the money.


  • Reply 49 of 49
    SoliSoli Posts: 9,360member
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:

    avon b7 said:
    "At launch, though, this feature is only going to be available to people in the United States. 

    Doubtlessly it will spread to other markets but for now, America has a lead on payment technology -- and it's all because of Apple."

    Is this a reference to 'cash' transfers using a phone? 

    That can already be done with apps like Twyp or Bizum. And using Siri too.

    Is there a difference between what those apps are doing and what the feature will offer?
    Yes, security and safety, but you already know that.
    Mobile 'cash' payments have existed in Spain since 2016. Bizum is operated by 23 Spanish banks and the Bank of Spain is involved, but the article mentioned the 'feature' which I took to mean 'cash' payments, not the security or safety (which would be irrelevant bin this case as no cards are even in play).
    You asked what the difference was and @Soli replied “security and safety”. I’m not sure why that would be irrelevant due to no cards being in play. How does Bizum verify the identity of the user (Especially if it’s possible to send cash with Siri)?

    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:

    avon b7 said:
    "At launch, though, this feature is only going to be available to people in the United States. 

    Doubtlessly it will spread to other markets but for now, America has a lead on payment technology -- and it's all because of Apple."

    Is this a reference to 'cash' transfers using a phone? 

    That can already be done with apps like Twyp or Bizum. And using Siri too.

    Is there a difference between what those apps are doing and what the feature will offer?
    Yes, security and safety, but you already know that.
    In Apple Pay, Apple is the 'man in the middle' and as such geets a fee. Bizum doesn't have anyone in the middle. It's you and your bank (using standard communications technology).
    Yes, Apple gets a cut of Apple Pay transactions. But I don’t think they do for Apple Pay Cash transactions. If I send $10 to someone $10 comes out of my account and they receive $10. There isn’t some extra charge being removed somewhere. 

    FWIW, if I receive $10 via Apple Pay Cash I can immediately turn around and spend that same $10 using my Apple Pay Cash card in Wallet using Apple Pay. I don’t have to transfer it somewhere else, I just choose that card to make the payment. Does Bizum do that?
    Cards, especially non-EMV cards, were open to abuse. With bizum, it is your account and you use your phone number and phone to identify yourself authenticating using passcode, TouchID, FaceID etc (just like Apple Pay), so how is Apple Pay offering more security and safety if the identification process is identical? No card information needs to be stored on the phone, everything is at the bank. All you need to do is prove it is you originating the transaction using standard mobile technology.
    To be clear, there's no Secure Element not the device… but you say Apple Pay isn't as secure or safe. Sure¡

    You say all the info is at the bank, which means the device needs to be connected to the internet using "standard mobile technology" so that you can access your account at the bank? Apple Pay doesn't have this requirement post setup because Apple Pay is more secure and more safer. And don't act like you've never heard of SIM jacking and they try to pimp a transactional service that pairs a mobile number with a bank account. I'll stick with Apple's far superior solutions that protects the user.

    It doesn't look like it can do anything but transfer money between individuals so how exactly is that the same as Apple Pay? It's not! So you have a less safe and less secure system that's tied to a cell phone number instead of of the bank creating a separate, random, 16-digit card number to tie to Apple Pay for each new device in which you set it up with (which includes re-adding that card on that device) and all being stored on the Secure Element of the device, but you want use to believe that a system that requires internet access and requires the very very weak link of the cellphone number and yet can only do P2P payments is somehow superior to Apple Pay. Good one¡
    You lost the plot I fear. Rewind 

    I asked a legitimate question because from the article, the point I was raising wasn't clear.

    This point was on the 'cash' aspect, Apple Pay Cash and not Apple Pay. Would it be ironic if I said you knew that already?

    So off you go to bark up the wrong tree.

    You do not need a card, just an account and a phone number. Nothing goes anywhere near the secure enclave because there is no need for it, at least as far as I'm aware but that was partly why I asked the question in the first place and got your smart arse answer as a result. I mentioned the man in the middle simply because in the case of systems like bizum there appears to be none. It is the client sending 'cash' to another person but using the app on the smart phone. 

    As for the internal working, I do not know (again, that's partly why I asked but you don't know either) but in terms of sending 'cash' to another user, this system has been in place here since 2016 and seems to be plenty secure. And if the receiving person doesn't have a bank account and simply needs hard cash, the money can be made available at an ATM. The user doesn't need a card to withdraw the money.
    1) That would be more clear if you didn't specifically mention the service that Apple does get a cut from, Apple Pay.

    2) Regardless of whether it's AP or APC the Secure Element and not using your phone number to link with your bank account are inarguably more safe and more secure options. I don't even use my cellphone number for any accounts. Only my cellular carrier and Apple know what it is outside some friends and family because you obviously can't get around that. Everything else goes through a proxy service.

    3) The only thing you've shown is that Bizum is more secure and potential more convenient than carrying around cash… and that's what it's design for. These sorts of P2P money transfers were around well before Android and possibly before the iPhone. The oldest I'm familiar with is M-Pesa, which I read about as being popular in Kenya so that couriers didn't have to carry cash on them and risk being robbed, or at least reduce that risk because someone carrying a cellphone is commonplace, but a backpack filled with money would be an easier target.

    edited September 2018
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