they are making some nice gear, I already placed my main desktop with a PC. my mac book pro is scheduled to be replaced by a dell xp, and this looks like good fit when my ipad pro goes eol.
So you’ll have a Windows Desktop, a Windows notebook and another Windows Desktop? Why couldn’t you replace all of them with a Surface Pro 6? Oh yeah, that’s right it doesn’t do anything well.
I have a SP4, and what you said that it doesn't do anything well is not true. With the Surface Dock I have no issues at all working with it as a desktop. As a tablet, I see no difference compared to an iPad Pro when browsing, annotating PDF documents, reading email, watching movies with Netflix, playing music or using social apps. Even Apple copied some elements from the Surface Pro, as support for a stylus and side-by-side applications. Too bad it doesn't have the long list of apps of an iPad. Plus is far better than an iPad + Smart Keyboard as a desktop replacement since it has a better backlit keyboard and trackpad. It's obvious that is not the best working with it on the lap, but a part from that it's has been a very good experience. There are cases where a desktop, laptop or iPad are a better option than a Surface Pro device, but neither of them are as good as the Surface Pro as a 2-in-1 device.
Maybe you should try one to see if it fits your workflow.
If that’s an XPS15 good luck with the performance throttling off the power cord! (Technically you’ll have 3 desktops)
Is there a modern notebook that doesn't throttle, including Macbook Pro's?
I’ve used all of the Surface Pro models to differing extents. I can’t say that any were pleasurable. Usable, yes. But that’s not really saying much. No matter what, when all is said and done, this is still a Desktop OS requiring a keyboard, and a real pointing device, to get much of anything done. The screen is simply too small for Windows. What I’m amazed about is thAt Win10 isn’t that much more optimized for fingers than was Win XP back when Gates said, around 2000, that within 5 years most computers would be Windows “tablets” (really convertible laptops). He was wrong. Those never sold more than 2.5 million a year, until they disappeared when the iPad arrived. Win 8 was supposed to fix those problems, but we all know how that worked out.
the current Surface Pro tablets don’t sell more than 3 million a year, and that may be optimistic. Too expensive for the windows audience, too limited in what it does, and how it does it and too clumsy.
I don't need the keyboard / trackpad in a Surface Pro if I'm browsing, watching movies or using social apps. But if I'm going to work in a long document or complex spreadsheet, that keyboard/trackpad will be useful, doesn't matter if it's a Surface Pro or an iPad Pro. But the Surface Pro gives you a better experience, since it has a trackpad, while Apple force you use a touch UI and touch apps with a vertical screen. Don't you think that's clumsy?
It’s far easier to do most everything on an iPad, including Office, without a keyboard, that on a Surface device without a keyboard. It doesn’t matter what you’re doing. The only annoyance is the lack of support for a trackpad, but the double finger keyboard approach to that isn’t too bad.
i also get the full screen resolution all of the time. The fact that the Desktop and apps are optimized for iOS helps tremendously. That includes Microsoft’s products, which work better on the iPad than on the Surface tablet.
The reason why Apple should just shrug at this is because Microsoft can’t sell them. Last year, the sales of the total Surface line was a bit above $5 billion. That was for the entire year. It was also broken up between all of these products. The best selling line, the Surface Pro, may, and I repeat - may, have reached 3 million. Maybe. The rest are just a few hundred thousand in sales. That’s for the full year.
no matter what Microsoft has done with these lines, the sales remain stagnant. They’re not a competitor. They’re all niche products. They’re much too expensive for the audience they’re intended for. Mostly, sales of the Surface Pro line end in IT departments.
It may be better to think of Microsoft selling hardware the same as Google selling hardware: It's not their primary market. But, they can assemble a complete configuration just show what can be done and to help market their primary product. They don't need to sell a lot or even make a profit to meet their objective.
I have a Surface Studio which I use to run AutoCAD and Revit (won't run on macOS). With its large, tilt screen, it's the most beautiful computer I've ever owned. People say the internals are underwhelming. Maybe so, but I find the machine to be incredibly responsive. I also have a Surface Book which is a stunning and versatile little machine. The build quality on both is excellent, on a par with Apple. What I like about the Surface line, is that all devices have touch screens and face ID. I wish Apple would do that. What I don't like is Windows. I've used both PCs and Macs for almost three decades. The Mac operating system is more intuitive and more fun to use, and it's more reliable. My 27-inch iMac and MacBook Pro are my workhorses and my machines of choice, but I can enjoy my Surface Studio too. I won't upgrade to the Studio 2, but I look forward to seeing what new features they might add to the 3.
The reason why Apple should just shrug at this is because Microsoft can’t sell them. Last year, the sales of the total Surface line was a bit above $5 billion. That was for the entire year. It was also broken up between all of these products. The best selling line, the Surface Pro, may, and I repeat - may, have reached 3 million. Maybe. The rest are just a few hundred thousand in sales. That’s for the full year.
no matter what Microsoft has done with these lines, the sales remain stagnant. They’re not a competitor. They’re all niche products. They’re much too expensive for the audience they’re intended for. Mostly, sales of the Surface Pro line end in IT departments.
It may be better to think of Microsoft selling hardware the same as Google selling hardware: It's not their primary market. But, they can assemble a complete configuration just show what can be done and to help market their primary product. They don't need to sell a lot or even make a profit to meet their objective.
For a while, Microsoft was attempting to garner big hardware sales. They looked at Apple, and as some financial writers said, at the time, and were jealous at the sales and profits of hardware, as Apple moved past them in sales, profits and valuation. Both Google and Microsoft want these sales to grow, but neither understands those markets they’re entering. Neither the Windows or the Android markets need Microsoft or Google to show them anything. It’s a joke. Show other companies how to make a “better” product, but fail to sell those products, thereby having those others basically laugh at them.
the only way to teach others by making your own products is to have them so successful that the others have to take notice, and follow. This isn’t happening. The product lines are essentially failures, and are dragging nobody anywhere, except away.
I certainly won't switch to this gear. But I have to say, they are catching up. Sure, rounded edges, overall design and even videos are copied from Apple. The question, however, seems to be: Can Apple up the game, think different and get a lead again – or is the competition catching up and be on par with Apple in the next years. Currently, my impression is Apple mainly leads with the Watch (and significantly here!) and maybe AirPods. But regarding Phone, Tablet and Computer – Apple has no clear lead for now.
Yeh, most of the comments here are based more on a hatred of Microsoft and love of Apple rather than reality. I guess that's the way things are these days: It's "My side is good, Your side is bad" regardless of the facts.
I would love to hear what Steve's comments would have been about the Surface line. I am sure he would find something to criticize. But, for the most part, particularly in his more mature and settled days, he could see a product for what it was.
For myself, I'm not sure if these products are great or just mediocre. But, I have to give Microsoft credit for innovative designs. Apple seems stuck in rehashing old form factors -- which is not all bad -- "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". But, it is getting to be time that they came up with something innovative in the iPad/MacBook/Mac lines.... I think that they probably will in the year or maybe two. They're due to spring one.
These aren’t bad products, overall, but they’re meaningless products. For a time, before Ballmer left. Microsoft was supposed to be known as a software, services and devices business. That focus has changed since he left. They’ve given up on the devices part of the description. But it’s odd, that even though this small division consistently loses money for Microsoft, they continue it.
I don't think the MS focus have changed. They still huge in the software and services side, specially with business / enterprises. They just added the Surface line, among other things. And based in the latest quarters reports, they aren't losing money anymore.
What’s the point? We read, from posters, and a few writers, that these
are reference designs to enorage OEMs to make better gear, but that’s
nonsense. That’s used as an excuse when something doesn’t sell, but is
continued.
a major problem with the Surface Pro line is the
screen size. It’s way too small for Windows. Even Win10, which is
supposed to be more finger friendly, isn’t, you still NEED a keyboard to
do anything much. A stylus is required, or a trackpad, or mouse. Not
that’s its nice to have these things, but required. Because of the small
screen trying to run what is still a Desktop OS, the high resolution of
the screen can only be used for some things. The native resolution is
brought down to a much lower level, though I forget exactly what it is
right now. So there’s much less information on the screen.
the
only thing I like about these devices is the longer battery life. It’s
inexcusable that the iPad still is rated at 10 hours. It should be 14 by
now.
In my experience, I have no major issues with Windows 10 and the screen size. When I want to use it as a tablet, I switch to tablet mode and it works very fine to browse, watch movies, uses social apps and annotate documents. No keyboard / trackpad required for these tasks. IMO, the keyboard requirement is more related to the tasks than the device. If I need to work in a spreadsheet or document, I'll have a better experience with a Surface Pro than an iPad. And it doesn't means that the iPad is a bad device. It's just limited for same tasks where a Surface Pro does better, while there are things where an iPad will do better.
There was a time when Microsoft was very interested in producing hardware as a major product line. It didn’t work out, and so they changed their focus. Now, if you look at their mobile software references on their site, they say that the best mobile experience for Microsoft software is with an iPhone and iPad. They know where things are going.
I haven't seen MS saying that the best mobile experience was iPhone or iPad. What I have seen is they promoting their apps and services as the best option for mobile devices, including iPhone and iPad.
the Surface Pro is not a real mobile device. It’s a light portable
Windows device. It’s very different. Microsoft has been trying to get
into mobile, which requires a real mobile OS, but they keep failing at
it.
I agree that MS have failed with mobile devices, specially smartphones. And even though Windows 10 is not a mobile OS in the line of iOS or Android, it has many of the benefits of a mobile OS, like support for touchscreen, a touch UI and touch optimized apps. The Surface Pro is a portable device that can be used as a mobile device.
they are making some nice gear, I already placed my main desktop with a PC. my mac book pro is scheduled to be replaced by a dell xp, and this looks like good fit when my ipad pro goes eol.
So you’ll have a Windows Desktop, a Windows notebook and another Windows Desktop? Why couldn’t you replace all of them with a Surface Pro 6? Oh yeah, that’s right it doesn’t do anything well.
I have a SP4, and what you said that it doesn't do anything well is not true. With the Surface Dock I have no issues at all working with it as a desktop. As a tablet, I see no difference compared to an iPad Pro when browsing, annotating PDF documents, reading email, watching movies with Netflix, playing music or using social apps. Even Apple copied some elements from the Surface Pro, as support for a stylus and side-by-side applications. Too bad it doesn't have the long list of apps of an iPad. Plus is far better than an iPad + Smart Keyboard as a desktop replacement since it has a better backlit keyboard and trackpad. It's obvious that is not the best working with it on the lap, but a part from that it's has been a very good experience. There are cases where a desktop, laptop or iPad are a better option than a Surface Pro device, but neither of them are as good as the Surface Pro as a 2-in-1 device.
Maybe you should try one to see if it fits your workflow.
If that’s an XPS15 good luck with the performance throttling off the power cord! (Technically you’ll have 3 desktops)
Is there a modern notebook that doesn't throttle, including Macbook Pro's?
I’ve used all of the Surface Pro models to differing extents. I can’t say that any were pleasurable. Usable, yes. But that’s not really saying much. No matter what, when all is said and done, this is still a Desktop OS requiring a keyboard, and a real pointing device, to get much of anything done. The screen is simply too small for Windows. What I’m amazed about is thAt Win10 isn’t that much more optimized for fingers than was Win XP back when Gates said, around 2000, that within 5 years most computers would be Windows “tablets” (really convertible laptops). He was wrong. Those never sold more than 2.5 million a year, until they disappeared when the iPad arrived. Win 8 was supposed to fix those problems, but we all know how that worked out.
the current Surface Pro tablets don’t sell more than 3 million a year, and that may be optimistic. Too expensive for the windows audience, too limited in what it does, and how it does it and too clumsy.
I don't need the keyboard / trackpad in a Surface Pro if I'm browsing, watching movies or using social apps. But if I'm going to work in a long document or complex spreadsheet, that keyboard/trackpad will be useful, doesn't matter if it's a Surface Pro or an iPad Pro. But the Surface Pro gives you a better experience, since it has a trackpad, while Apple force you use a touch UI and touch apps with a vertical screen. Don't you think that's clumsy?
It’s far easier to do most everything on an iPad, including Office, without a keyboard, that on a Surface device without a keyboard. It doesn’t matter what you’re doing. The only annoyance is the lack of support for a trackpad, but the double finger keyboard approach to that isn’t too bad.
Can you give an specific example on how is easier to do something in MS Office compared to a Surface Pro? And you cannot compare the virtual trackpad in iOS to a real trackpad. Do you think isn't too bad to do the dual finger with the screen in vertical position? It's awful. The Surface is miles ahead as a desktop replacement compared to what Apple has done with the iPad.
i also get the full screen resolution all of the time. The fact that the
Desktop and apps are optimized for iOS helps tremendously. That
includes Microsoft’s products, which work better on the iPad than on the
Surface tablet.
MS Office is touch optimized since version 2016, and there is a mobile version of Office. Both are optimized for touch in Windows 10. Maybe you can give details on how they work better in iOS than the Surface.
The reason why Apple should just shrug at this is because Microsoft can’t sell them. Last year, the sales of the total Surface line was a bit above $5 billion. That was for the entire year. It was also broken up between all of these products. The best selling line, the Surface Pro, may, and I repeat - may, have reached 3 million. Maybe. The rest are just a few hundred thousand in sales. That’s for the full year.
no matter what Microsoft has done with these lines, the sales remain stagnant. They’re not a competitor. They’re all niche products. They’re much too expensive for the audience they’re intended for. Mostly, sales of the Surface Pro line end in IT departments.
It may be better to think of Microsoft selling hardware the same as Google selling hardware: It's not their primary market. But, they can assemble a complete configuration just show what can be done and to help market their primary product. They don't need to sell a lot or even make a profit to meet their objective.
For a while, Microsoft was attempting to garner big hardware sales. They looked at Apple, and as some financial writers said, at the time, and were jealous at the sales and profits of hardware, as Apple moved past them in sales, profits and valuation. Both Google and Microsoft want these sales to grow, but neither understands those markets they’re entering. Neither the Windows or the Android markets need Microsoft or Google to show them anything. It’s a joke. Show other companies how to make a “better” product, but fail to sell those products, thereby having those others basically laugh at them.
the only way to teach others by making your own products is to have them so successful that the others have to take notice, and follow. This isn’t happening. The product lines are essentially failures, and are dragging nobody anywhere, except away.
I think you missed my point and are thinking of every product having to be successful and make a profit.
But, Gillette proved that ain't so with razors.
And Supermarkets do it daily with money losing specials designed to get you in the door.
Yes, Microsoft did try to branch out into phones and failed. But that doesn't mean they are trying to repeat the problem. I suspect they are simply putting out a product to demonstrate to HP, Lenovo, etc. how the full potential of Windows can be exploited with a workable product. That has been their primary goal since WIndows 8.
they are making some nice gear, I already placed my main desktop with a PC. my mac book pro is scheduled to be replaced by a dell xp, and this looks like good fit when my ipad pro goes eol.
So you’ll have a Windows Desktop, a Windows notebook and another Windows Desktop? Why couldn’t you replace all of them with a Surface Pro 6? Oh yeah, that’s right it doesn’t do anything well.
I have a SP4, and what you said that it doesn't do anything well is not true. With the Surface Dock I have no issues at all working with it as a desktop. As a tablet, I see no difference compared to an iPad Pro when browsing, annotating PDF documents, reading email, watching movies with Netflix, playing music or using social apps. Even Apple copied some elements from the Surface Pro, as support for a stylus and side-by-side applications. Too bad it doesn't have the long list of apps of an iPad. Plus is far better than an iPad + Smart Keyboard as a desktop replacement since it has a better backlit keyboard and trackpad. It's obvious that is not the best working with it on the lap, but a part from that it's has been a very good experience. There are cases where a desktop, laptop or iPad are a better option than a Surface Pro device, but neither of them are as good as the Surface Pro as a 2-in-1 device.
Maybe you should try one to see if it fits your workflow.
If that’s an XPS15 good luck with the performance throttling off the power cord! (Technically you’ll have 3 desktops)
Is there a modern notebook that doesn't throttle, including Macbook Pro's?
I’ve used all of the Surface Pro models to differing extents. I can’t say that any were pleasurable. Usable, yes. But that’s not really saying much. No matter what, when all is said and done, this is still a Desktop OS requiring a keyboard, and a real pointing device, to get much of anything done. The screen is simply too small for Windows. What I’m amazed about is thAt Win10 isn’t that much more optimized for fingers than was Win XP back when Gates said, around 2000, that within 5 years most computers would be Windows “tablets” (really convertible laptops). He was wrong. Those never sold more than 2.5 million a year, until they disappeared when the iPad arrived. Win 8 was supposed to fix those problems, but we all know how that worked out.
the current Surface Pro tablets don’t sell more than 3 million a year, and that may be optimistic. Too expensive for the windows audience, too limited in what it does, and how it does it and too clumsy.
I don't need the keyboard / trackpad in a Surface Pro if I'm browsing, watching movies or using social apps. But if I'm going to work in a long document or complex spreadsheet, that keyboard/trackpad will be useful, doesn't matter if it's a Surface Pro or an iPad Pro. But the Surface Pro gives you a better experience, since it has a trackpad, while Apple force you use a touch UI and touch apps with a vertical screen. Don't you think that's clumsy?
It’s far easier to do most everything on an iPad, including Office, without a keyboard, that on a Surface device without a keyboard. It doesn’t matter what you’re doing. The only annoyance is the lack of support for a trackpad, but the double finger keyboard approach to that isn’t too bad.
Can you give an specific example on how is easier to do something in MS Office compared to a Surface Pro? And you cannot compare the virtual trackpad in iOS to a real trackpad. Do you think isn't too bad to do the dual finger with the screen in vertical position? It's awful. The Surface is miles ahead as a desktop replacement compared to what Apple has done with the iPad.
i also get the full screen resolution all of the time. The fact that the
Desktop and apps are optimized for iOS helps tremendously. That
includes Microsoft’s products, which work better on the iPad than on the
Surface tablet.
MS Office is touch optimized since version 2016, and there is a mobile version of Office. Both are optimized for touch in Windows 10. Maybe you can give details on how they work better in iOS than the Surface.
I agree with you. But I think he was comparing an iPad without a keyboard to a Surface Tablet also with a keyboard or touchpad. In that, he's probably correct that the iPad is better. But that's taking away the primary advantage of the Surface for things like Excel so it isn't a fair comparison.
The Surface product line removes everything I like about Windows PCs and replaces it with a poor imitation of aa Apple product. If I’m going to buy a PC it is because I want a machine where I’m able to repair, replace, and upgrade individual system components over time. If I’m going to buy a “sealed” machine I’m going to buy a Mac or iOS device because it will probably last long enough that the regrets associated with not being able to repair/upgrade it myself are less likely to occur.
Comments
It’s far easier to do most everything on an iPad, including Office, without a keyboard, that on a Surface device without a keyboard. It doesn’t matter what you’re doing. The only annoyance is the lack of support for a trackpad, but the double finger keyboard approach to that isn’t too bad.
i also get the full screen resolution all of the time. The fact that the Desktop and apps are optimized for iOS helps tremendously. That includes Microsoft’s products, which work better on the iPad than on the Surface tablet.
the only way to teach others by making your own products is to have them so successful that the others have to take notice, and follow. This isn’t happening. The product lines are essentially failures, and are dragging nobody anywhere, except away.
MS Office is touch optimized since version 2016, and there is a mobile version of Office. Both are optimized for touch in Windows 10. Maybe you can give details on how they work better in iOS than the Surface.
https://products.office.com/en-us/mobile/office-mobile-apps-for-windows