iPhone XR demand reportedly forcing Apple to cut production expansion plans

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  • Reply 61 of 73
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,732member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    how about Apple stop making the same phone year after year come up with a new concept or a new UI  They act like we care about faster this and faster that we want a new phone  I refused the update I will stay with my X Until I am impressed
    What do you want, a circle-phone? How about you figure out that Apple doesn't do change for change's sake? Ive has commented on this many times. Most recently:

    “It starts with the determination not to fall into the trap of just making things different. Because when a product has been highly regarded there is often a desire from people to see it redesigned. I think one of the most important things is that you change something not to make it different but to make it better.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/features/jony-ive-interview-apple-ipad-new-macbook-air-mac-tim-cook-event-a8614421.html
    There's a beautiful English word that comes to mind whenever people speak from a corporate mindset but want to send a 'message': BOLLOCKS!!

    That quote struck a nerve because it is bollocks in the purest form.

    Did the injection moulded (18 months of work!) Flower Power and Dalmatian iMacs make them better? Nope!

    Was the sunflower iMac such a better design hit that it was repeated? Was the hockey puck mouse (with one button) better than those that came before it? Were spring loaded CD trays better than motorised trays?

    Is Jony Ive better to listen to when he looks away from the camera into nothingness on a white background and speaks like he's spaced out? LOL!

    How did iluminating the Apple logo on laptops make them 'better'. How did taking that away make them 'better'? Did eliminating battery status leds make things better. Magsafe was born to resolve a common problem. Given the design of USB-C ports and where the expensive consequences of a damaged connector are, was removing magsafe really better?

    There are many reasons for change! Budget constrictions, industry trends, marketing, doing what your boss tells you do and of course making them better but in any case you need to define 'better' because one man's 'better' can be another man's 'worse'. I'm looking at you, butterfly keyboard!


    Does Huawei even consider Industrial design of its products, and if they do, do they just contract it out like they do camera design? Most everything Huawei looks derivative, like the mini chin, with as many features packed in as possible, and given that Apple and Jony Ive are behind the original designs that these copy, you might want to stop mocking him.

    Yeah, the butterfly switch keyboards have had problems for a small number of the overall users, an engineering and manufacturing problem, and it has certainly evolved in its now third generation, all in the name of cutting the keystroke by 40% over the design from 2015, because thinner Mac's is what the public wants. The biggest issue that Apple has yet to resolve is keystroke noise.
    Industrial design? Huawei has an aesthetic research center in Paris where all the recent designs have come from:

    Try searching for adjectives like 'stunning', 'gorgeous', 'beautiful' plus Huawei.

    Camera design is not contracted out. It is co-engineered with Leica. It has its own Imaging and Video Technology R&D Centre in Tampere, employing some of the biggest names in the business:

    https://businesstampere.com/business-environment/business-ecosystems/imaging/huawei/


    They have spillproof keyboards on laptops too. ;-)
    You haven't made your case, and as for "aesthetic research center in Paris", i'm guessing that they gave the okay to the FlyPod's, which obviously stole Apple's AirPod design language.

    Jony and Apple's ID team are already credited with a number of original designs that Huawei, and just about every other consumer electronics company, have used as reference designs for their own products, not to mention the manufacturing processes that Apple has originated. Oh, and the Leica Camera that he designed, and of course, Apple Headquarters that he was instrumental in.

    In fairness to Huawei, they really haven't been around that long in consumer electronics, and they don't actually make very many product lines.

    Were Huawei to create a new product with original design, then I would certainly acknowledge that, but so far, everything that they have done is either derivative, or derivative with some evolution, aka the camera system on the Mate Pro.

    BFD 
    edited November 2018 cornchip
  • Reply 62 of 73
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,753member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    how about Apple stop making the same phone year after year come up with a new concept or a new UI  They act like we care about faster this and faster that we want a new phone  I refused the update I will stay with my X Until I am impressed
    What do you want, a circle-phone? How about you figure out that Apple doesn't do change for change's sake? Ive has commented on this many times. Most recently:

    “It starts with the determination not to fall into the trap of just making things different. Because when a product has been highly regarded there is often a desire from people to see it redesigned. I think one of the most important things is that you change something not to make it different but to make it better.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/features/jony-ive-interview-apple-ipad-new-macbook-air-mac-tim-cook-event-a8614421.html
    There's a beautiful English word that comes to mind whenever people speak from a corporate mindset but want to send a 'message': BOLLOCKS!!

    That quote struck a nerve because it is bollocks in the purest form.

    Did the injection moulded (18 months of work!) Flower Power and Dalmatian iMacs make them better? Nope!

    Was the sunflower iMac such a better design hit that it was repeated? Was the hockey puck mouse (with one button) better than those that came before it? Were spring loaded CD trays better than motorised trays?

    Is Jony Ive better to listen to when he looks away from the camera into nothingness on a white background and speaks like he's spaced out? LOL!

    How did iluminating the Apple logo on laptops make them 'better'. How did taking that away make them 'better'? Did eliminating battery status leds make things better. Magsafe was born to resolve a common problem. Given the design of USB-C ports and where the expensive consequences of a damaged connector are, was removing magsafe really better?

    There are many reasons for change! Budget constrictions, industry trends, marketing, doing what your boss tells you do and of course making them better but in any case you need to define 'better' because one man's 'better' can be another man's 'worse'. I'm looking at you, butterfly keyboard!


    Does Huawei even consider Industrial design of its products, and if they do, do they just contract it out like they do camera design? Most everything Huawei looks derivative, like the mini chin, with as many features packed in as possible, and given that Apple and Jony Ive are behind the original designs that these copy, you might want to stop mocking him.

    Yeah, the butterfly switch keyboards have had problems for a small number of the overall users, an engineering and manufacturing problem, and it has certainly evolved in its now third generation, all in the name of cutting the keystroke by 40% over the design from 2015, because thinner Mac's is what the public wants. The biggest issue that Apple has yet to resolve is keystroke noise.
    Industrial design? Huawei has an aesthetic research center in Paris where all the recent designs have come from:

    Try searching for adjectives like 'stunning', 'gorgeous', 'beautiful' plus Huawei.

    Camera design is not contracted out. It is co-engineered with Leica. It has its own Imaging and Video Technology R&D Centre in Tampere, employing some of the biggest names in the business:

    https://businesstampere.com/business-environment/business-ecosystems/imaging/huawei/


    They have spillproof keyboards on laptops too. ;-)
    You haven't made your case, and as for "aesthetic research center in Paris", i'm guessing that they gave the okay to the FlyPod's, which obviously stole Apple's AirPod design language.

    Jony and Apple's ID team are already credited with a number of original designs that Huawei, and just about every other consumer electronics company, have used as reference designs for their own products, not to mention the manufacturing processes that Apple has originated. Oh, and the Leica Camera that he designed, and of course, Apple Headquarters that he was instrumental in.

    In fairness to Huawei, they really haven't been around that long in consumer electronics, and they don't actually make very many product lines.

    Were Huawei to create a new product with original design, then I would certainly acknowledge that, but so far, everything that they have done is either derivative, or derivative with some evolution, aka the camera system on the Mate Pro.

    BFD 
    Try imagining Air Pods with cables. That is what came before. Removing the cables wasn't really an exercise in industrial design. 

    The secret is on the inside, not the outside, and in fact they are actually different.

    In that regard Huawei/Honor has also added something new on the pro version. Bone ID.
  • Reply 63 of 73
    cornchipcornchip Posts: 1,311member
    Dead_Pool said:
    Going back to the early days of the Mac, Apple has always been something of an overpriced luxury brand. They just didn't have the sales to make money on volume. That changed a bit with the rise of the iPhone and the iPad, as they sold so many that they could make them affordable by Apple standards. But now that sales have plateaued and may decline in the future, Apple seems to have regressed back to what it knows best: making incredible products that are just too expensive for many. They seem to realize that they can't make money selling Chevys, so they are selling only BMW's and Mercedes now. Many will buy them, but many more just won't be able to. I, for one, am sad to see that.
    I only drive German sports cars.

    Used ones.

    I also only buy iPhones.

    Used ones.
  • Reply 64 of 73
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,732member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    how about Apple stop making the same phone year after year come up with a new concept or a new UI  They act like we care about faster this and faster that we want a new phone  I refused the update I will stay with my X Until I am impressed
    What do you want, a circle-phone? How about you figure out that Apple doesn't do change for change's sake? Ive has commented on this many times. Most recently:

    “It starts with the determination not to fall into the trap of just making things different. Because when a product has been highly regarded there is often a desire from people to see it redesigned. I think one of the most important things is that you change something not to make it different but to make it better.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/features/jony-ive-interview-apple-ipad-new-macbook-air-mac-tim-cook-event-a8614421.html
    There's a beautiful English word that comes to mind whenever people speak from a corporate mindset but want to send a 'message': BOLLOCKS!!

    That quote struck a nerve because it is bollocks in the purest form.

    Did the injection moulded (18 months of work!) Flower Power and Dalmatian iMacs make them better? Nope!

    Was the sunflower iMac such a better design hit that it was repeated? Was the hockey puck mouse (with one button) better than those that came before it? Were spring loaded CD trays better than motorised trays?

    Is Jony Ive better to listen to when he looks away from the camera into nothingness on a white background and speaks like he's spaced out? LOL!

    How did iluminating the Apple logo on laptops make them 'better'. How did taking that away make them 'better'? Did eliminating battery status leds make things better. Magsafe was born to resolve a common problem. Given the design of USB-C ports and where the expensive consequences of a damaged connector are, was removing magsafe really better?

    There are many reasons for change! Budget constrictions, industry trends, marketing, doing what your boss tells you do and of course making them better but in any case you need to define 'better' because one man's 'better' can be another man's 'worse'. I'm looking at you, butterfly keyboard!


    Does Huawei even consider Industrial design of its products, and if they do, do they just contract it out like they do camera design? Most everything Huawei looks derivative, like the mini chin, with as many features packed in as possible, and given that Apple and Jony Ive are behind the original designs that these copy, you might want to stop mocking him.

    Yeah, the butterfly switch keyboards have had problems for a small number of the overall users, an engineering and manufacturing problem, and it has certainly evolved in its now third generation, all in the name of cutting the keystroke by 40% over the design from 2015, because thinner Mac's is what the public wants. The biggest issue that Apple has yet to resolve is keystroke noise.
    Industrial design? Huawei has an aesthetic research center in Paris where all the recent designs have come from:

    Try searching for adjectives like 'stunning', 'gorgeous', 'beautiful' plus Huawei.

    Camera design is not contracted out. It is co-engineered with Leica. It has its own Imaging and Video Technology R&D Centre in Tampere, employing some of the biggest names in the business:

    https://businesstampere.com/business-environment/business-ecosystems/imaging/huawei/


    They have spillproof keyboards on laptops too. ;-)
    You haven't made your case, and as for "aesthetic research center in Paris", i'm guessing that they gave the okay to the FlyPod's, which obviously stole Apple's AirPod design language.

    Jony and Apple's ID team are already credited with a number of original designs that Huawei, and just about every other consumer electronics company, have used as reference designs for their own products, not to mention the manufacturing processes that Apple has originated. Oh, and the Leica Camera that he designed, and of course, Apple Headquarters that he was instrumental in.

    In fairness to Huawei, they really haven't been around that long in consumer electronics, and they don't actually make very many product lines.

    Were Huawei to create a new product with original design, then I would certainly acknowledge that, but so far, everything that they have done is either derivative, or derivative with some evolution, aka the camera system on the Mate Pro.

    BFD 
    Try imagining Air Pods with cables. That is what came before. Removing the cables wasn't really an exercise in industrial design. 

    The secret is on the inside, not the outside, and in fact they are actually different.

    In that regard Huawei/Honor has also added something new on the pro version. Bone ID.
    Yeah, Apple spent a shit ton of time analyzing data from thousands of individual's ears to come up with the design of the Ear Pods, so I think it is fair for them to evolve that design into AirPods. 

    Bone ID, Touch, and some kind of face ID, all in the Mate P20 pro series.

    You would almost think that the designers and engineers couldn't decide what was best, so they used everything that they could throw in.

    That isn't good design, BTW, but you seem to really like it, so there's that going for them.
    edited November 2018
  • Reply 65 of 73
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,753member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    how about Apple stop making the same phone year after year come up with a new concept or a new UI  They act like we care about faster this and faster that we want a new phone  I refused the update I will stay with my X Until I am impressed
    What do you want, a circle-phone? How about you figure out that Apple doesn't do change for change's sake? Ive has commented on this many times. Most recently:

    “It starts with the determination not to fall into the trap of just making things different. Because when a product has been highly regarded there is often a desire from people to see it redesigned. I think one of the most important things is that you change something not to make it different but to make it better.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/features/jony-ive-interview-apple-ipad-new-macbook-air-mac-tim-cook-event-a8614421.html
    There's a beautiful English word that comes to mind whenever people speak from a corporate mindset but want to send a 'message': BOLLOCKS!!

    That quote struck a nerve because it is bollocks in the purest form.

    Did the injection moulded (18 months of work!) Flower Power and Dalmatian iMacs make them better? Nope!

    Was the sunflower iMac such a better design hit that it was repeated? Was the hockey puck mouse (with one button) better than those that came before it? Were spring loaded CD trays better than motorised trays?

    Is Jony Ive better to listen to when he looks away from the camera into nothingness on a white background and speaks like he's spaced out? LOL!

    How did iluminating the Apple logo on laptops make them 'better'. How did taking that away make them 'better'? Did eliminating battery status leds make things better. Magsafe was born to resolve a common problem. Given the design of USB-C ports and where the expensive consequences of a damaged connector are, was removing magsafe really better?

    There are many reasons for change! Budget constrictions, industry trends, marketing, doing what your boss tells you do and of course making them better but in any case you need to define 'better' because one man's 'better' can be another man's 'worse'. I'm looking at you, butterfly keyboard!


    Does Huawei even consider Industrial design of its products, and if they do, do they just contract it out like they do camera design? Most everything Huawei looks derivative, like the mini chin, with as many features packed in as possible, and given that Apple and Jony Ive are behind the original designs that these copy, you might want to stop mocking him.

    Yeah, the butterfly switch keyboards have had problems for a small number of the overall users, an engineering and manufacturing problem, and it has certainly evolved in its now third generation, all in the name of cutting the keystroke by 40% over the design from 2015, because thinner Mac's is what the public wants. The biggest issue that Apple has yet to resolve is keystroke noise.
    Industrial design? Huawei has an aesthetic research center in Paris where all the recent designs have come from:

    Try searching for adjectives like 'stunning', 'gorgeous', 'beautiful' plus Huawei.

    Camera design is not contracted out. It is co-engineered with Leica. It has its own Imaging and Video Technology R&D Centre in Tampere, employing some of the biggest names in the business:

    https://businesstampere.com/business-environment/business-ecosystems/imaging/huawei/


    They have spillproof keyboards on laptops too. ;-)
    You haven't made your case, and as for "aesthetic research center in Paris", i'm guessing that they gave the okay to the FlyPod's, which obviously stole Apple's AirPod design language.

    Jony and Apple's ID team are already credited with a number of original designs that Huawei, and just about every other consumer electronics company, have used as reference designs for their own products, not to mention the manufacturing processes that Apple has originated. Oh, and the Leica Camera that he designed, and of course, Apple Headquarters that he was instrumental in.

    In fairness to Huawei, they really haven't been around that long in consumer electronics, and they don't actually make very many product lines.

    Were Huawei to create a new product with original design, then I would certainly acknowledge that, but so far, everything that they have done is either derivative, or derivative with some evolution, aka the camera system on the Mate Pro.

    BFD 
    Try imagining Air Pods with cables. That is what came before. Removing the cables wasn't really an exercise in industrial design. 

    The secret is on the inside, not the outside, and in fact they are actually different.

    In that regard Huawei/Honor has also added something new on the pro version. Bone ID.
    Yeah, Apple spent a shit ton of time analyzing data from thousands of individual's ears to come up with the design of the Ear Pods, so I think it is fair for them to evolve that design into AirPods. 

    Bone ID, Touch, and some kind of face ID, all in the Mate P20 pro series.

    You would almost think that the designers and engineers couldn't decide what was best, so they used everything that they could throw in.

    That isn't good design, BTW, but you seem to really like it, so there's that going for them.
    I'm the sceptical type. For Bone ID, we'll have to see how it works in the wild. The idea is good, though.

    As for multiple biometric options, it all boils down to choice. It's nice to have options. Currently there are only two on Huawei phones (BoneID is of no use without the buds).

    Data on ear shape has been accumulated for decades by hearing aid companies. In fact, Bragi used a lot of that data for Dash.

    And let's not forget that in the field of truly wireless earbuds, Bragi was the real innovator in the field.

    AirPods have all those ideas (right down to the carry case that also charges) and add a couple of ideas. In fact, if Apple had produced the Dash first and Bragi had followed with AirPods, a lot of people would have been howling about Bragi stealing Apple's work! The form factor is different but hardly original.

    The biggest drawback back on AirPods from a design perspective is the colour options.

    Honor adds BoneID and makes the carry case wireless chargeable (perfect for a reverse charging phone like the Mate 20 Pro). Honor also has a partnership with DJI for a voice controlled drone for which the Fly Pods will also prove useful.
  • Reply 66 of 73
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,732member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    how about Apple stop making the same phone year after year come up with a new concept or a new UI  They act like we care about faster this and faster that we want a new phone  I refused the update I will stay with my X Until I am impressed
    What do you want, a circle-phone? How about you figure out that Apple doesn't do change for change's sake? Ive has commented on this many times. Most recently:

    “It starts with the determination not to fall into the trap of just making things different. Because when a product has been highly regarded there is often a desire from people to see it redesigned. I think one of the most important things is that you change something not to make it different but to make it better.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/features/jony-ive-interview-apple-ipad-new-macbook-air-mac-tim-cook-event-a8614421.html
    There's a beautiful English word that comes to mind whenever people speak from a corporate mindset but want to send a 'message': BOLLOCKS!!

    That quote struck a nerve because it is bollocks in the purest form.

    Did the injection moulded (18 months of work!) Flower Power and Dalmatian iMacs make them better? Nope!

    Was the sunflower iMac such a better design hit that it was repeated? Was the hockey puck mouse (with one button) better than those that came before it? Were spring loaded CD trays better than motorised trays?

    Is Jony Ive better to listen to when he looks away from the camera into nothingness on a white background and speaks like he's spaced out? LOL!

    How did iluminating the Apple logo on laptops make them 'better'. How did taking that away make them 'better'? Did eliminating battery status leds make things better. Magsafe was born to resolve a common problem. Given the design of USB-C ports and where the expensive consequences of a damaged connector are, was removing magsafe really better?

    There are many reasons for change! Budget constrictions, industry trends, marketing, doing what your boss tells you do and of course making them better but in any case you need to define 'better' because one man's 'better' can be another man's 'worse'. I'm looking at you, butterfly keyboard!


    Does Huawei even consider Industrial design of its products, and if they do, do they just contract it out like they do camera design? Most everything Huawei looks derivative, like the mini chin, with as many features packed in as possible, and given that Apple and Jony Ive are behind the original designs that these copy, you might want to stop mocking him.

    Yeah, the butterfly switch keyboards have had problems for a small number of the overall users, an engineering and manufacturing problem, and it has certainly evolved in its now third generation, all in the name of cutting the keystroke by 40% over the design from 2015, because thinner Mac's is what the public wants. The biggest issue that Apple has yet to resolve is keystroke noise.
    Industrial design? Huawei has an aesthetic research center in Paris where all the recent designs have come from:

    Try searching for adjectives like 'stunning', 'gorgeous', 'beautiful' plus Huawei.

    Camera design is not contracted out. It is co-engineered with Leica. It has its own Imaging and Video Technology R&D Centre in Tampere, employing some of the biggest names in the business:

    https://businesstampere.com/business-environment/business-ecosystems/imaging/huawei/


    They have spillproof keyboards on laptops too. ;-)
    You haven't made your case, and as for "aesthetic research center in Paris", i'm guessing that they gave the okay to the FlyPod's, which obviously stole Apple's AirPod design language.

    Jony and Apple's ID team are already credited with a number of original designs that Huawei, and just about every other consumer electronics company, have used as reference designs for their own products, not to mention the manufacturing processes that Apple has originated. Oh, and the Leica Camera that he designed, and of course, Apple Headquarters that he was instrumental in.

    In fairness to Huawei, they really haven't been around that long in consumer electronics, and they don't actually make very many product lines.

    Were Huawei to create a new product with original design, then I would certainly acknowledge that, but so far, everything that they have done is either derivative, or derivative with some evolution, aka the camera system on the Mate Pro.

    BFD 
    Try imagining Air Pods with cables. That is what came before. Removing the cables wasn't really an exercise in industrial design. 

    The secret is on the inside, not the outside, and in fact they are actually different.

    In that regard Huawei/Honor has also added something new on the pro version. Bone ID.
    Yeah, Apple spent a shit ton of time analyzing data from thousands of individual's ears to come up with the design of the Ear Pods, so I think it is fair for them to evolve that design into AirPods. 

    Bone ID, Touch, and some kind of face ID, all in the Mate P20 pro series.

    You would almost think that the designers and engineers couldn't decide what was best, so they used everything that they could throw in.

    That isn't good design, BTW, but you seem to really like it, so there's that going for them.
    I'm the sceptical type. For Bone ID, we'll have to see how it works in the wild. The idea is good, though.

    As for multiple biometric options, it all boils down to choice. It's nice to have options. Currently there are only two on Huawei phones (BoneID is of no use without the buds).

    Data on ear shape has been accumulated for decades by hearing aid companies. In fact, Bragi used a lot of that data for Dash.

    And let's not forget that in the field of truly wireless earbuds, Bragi was the real innovator in the field.

    AirPods have all those ideas (right down to the carry case that also charges) and add a couple of ideas. In fact, if Apple had produced the Dash first and Bragi had followed with AirPods, a lot of people would have been howling about Bragi stealing Apple's work! The form factor is different but hardly original.

    The biggest drawback back on AirPods from a design perspective is the colour options.

    Honor adds BoneID and makes the carry case wireless chargeable (perfect for a reverse charging phone like the Mate 20 Pro). Honor also has a partnership with DJI for a voice controlled drone for which the Fly Pods will also prove useful.
    You keep going back to features, not Industrial Design, which was your original, and mocking, comment of Jony Ive and Apple. 

    I get that Huawei has to have a whole lot of features to stand out from the rest of the Android OS devices, but, that isn't the same as Industrial Design, which I'm not seeing that Huawei has any strength in.

    "Before AirPods came along, the Bragi Dash was the poster child for truly wireless earbuds. And yet, even with that cachet, the product was fraught with problems. The earbuds featured a so-so battery life of about two to three hours. Using them for voice calls, or even to talk to a digital assistant, was pretty much out of the question. Worst of all, the earbuds’ connection to a user’s phone would hiccup constantly. For those of us who hate wires, the Dash was not the solution

    Bragi wound up making and selling a second set of earbuds (annoyingly named, collectively, the Headphone) that boasted fewer features, but were therefore cheaper and less complicated. Those turned out to be some of the best wireless earbuds around

    But the $329 Dash Pro, announced in May and released earlier this summer, was supposed to fix all of the problems of the original Dash, while also getting the company back on track toward making brilliant-sounding, truly wireless earbuds with advanced intelligence. Bragi also promised longer battery life, improved voice calling, and added a real-time language translation feature."

    AirPods were released in December 2016, to rave reviews, and set the standard for wireless earbuds, and more to the point, Huawei copied Apple/s Industrial Design, not Bragi's.


    edited November 2018
  • Reply 67 of 73
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,753member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    how about Apple stop making the same phone year after year come up with a new concept or a new UI  They act like we care about faster this and faster that we want a new phone  I refused the update I will stay with my X Until I am impressed
    What do you want, a circle-phone? How about you figure out that Apple doesn't do change for change's sake? Ive has commented on this many times. Most recently:

    “It starts with the determination not to fall into the trap of just making things different. Because when a product has been highly regarded there is often a desire from people to see it redesigned. I think one of the most important things is that you change something not to make it different but to make it better.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/features/jony-ive-interview-apple-ipad-new-macbook-air-mac-tim-cook-event-a8614421.html
    There's a beautiful English word that comes to mind whenever people speak from a corporate mindset but want to send a 'message': BOLLOCKS!!

    That quote struck a nerve because it is bollocks in the purest form.

    Did the injection moulded (18 months of work!) Flower Power and Dalmatian iMacs make them better? Nope!

    Was the sunflower iMac such a better design hit that it was repeated? Was the hockey puck mouse (with one button) better than those that came before it? Were spring loaded CD trays better than motorised trays?

    Is Jony Ive better to listen to when he looks away from the camera into nothingness on a white background and speaks like he's spaced out? LOL!

    How did iluminating the Apple logo on laptops make them 'better'. How did taking that away make them 'better'? Did eliminating battery status leds make things better. Magsafe was born to resolve a common problem. Given the design of USB-C ports and where the expensive consequences of a damaged connector are, was removing magsafe really better?

    There are many reasons for change! Budget constrictions, industry trends, marketing, doing what your boss tells you do and of course making them better but in any case you need to define 'better' because one man's 'better' can be another man's 'worse'. I'm looking at you, butterfly keyboard!


    Does Huawei even consider Industrial design of its products, and if they do, do they just contract it out like they do camera design? Most everything Huawei looks derivative, like the mini chin, with as many features packed in as possible, and given that Apple and Jony Ive are behind the original designs that these copy, you might want to stop mocking him.

    Yeah, the butterfly switch keyboards have had problems for a small number of the overall users, an engineering and manufacturing problem, and it has certainly evolved in its now third generation, all in the name of cutting the keystroke by 40% over the design from 2015, because thinner Mac's is what the public wants. The biggest issue that Apple has yet to resolve is keystroke noise.
    Industrial design? Huawei has an aesthetic research center in Paris where all the recent designs have come from:

    Try searching for adjectives like 'stunning', 'gorgeous', 'beautiful' plus Huawei.

    Camera design is not contracted out. It is co-engineered with Leica. It has its own Imaging and Video Technology R&D Centre in Tampere, employing some of the biggest names in the business:

    https://businesstampere.com/business-environment/business-ecosystems/imaging/huawei/


    They have spillproof keyboards on laptops too. ;-)
    You haven't made your case, and as for "aesthetic research center in Paris", i'm guessing that they gave the okay to the FlyPod's, which obviously stole Apple's AirPod design language.

    Jony and Apple's ID team are already credited with a number of original designs that Huawei, and just about every other consumer electronics company, have used as reference designs for their own products, not to mention the manufacturing processes that Apple has originated. Oh, and the Leica Camera that he designed, and of course, Apple Headquarters that he was instrumental in.

    In fairness to Huawei, they really haven't been around that long in consumer electronics, and they don't actually make very many product lines.

    Were Huawei to create a new product with original design, then I would certainly acknowledge that, but so far, everything that they have done is either derivative, or derivative with some evolution, aka the camera system on the Mate Pro.

    BFD 
    Try imagining Air Pods with cables. That is what came before. Removing the cables wasn't really an exercise in industrial design. 

    The secret is on the inside, not the outside, and in fact they are actually different.

    In that regard Huawei/Honor has also added something new on the pro version. Bone ID.
    Yeah, Apple spent a shit ton of time analyzing data from thousands of individual's ears to come up with the design of the Ear Pods, so I think it is fair for them to evolve that design into AirPods. 

    Bone ID, Touch, and some kind of face ID, all in the Mate P20 pro series.

    You would almost think that the designers and engineers couldn't decide what was best, so they used everything that they could throw in.

    That isn't good design, BTW, but you seem to really like it, so there's that going for them.
    I'm the sceptical type. For Bone ID, we'll have to see how it works in the wild. The idea is good, though.

    As for multiple biometric options, it all boils down to choice. It's nice to have options. Currently there are only two on Huawei phones (BoneID is of no use without the buds).

    Data on ear shape has been accumulated for decades by hearing aid companies. In fact, Bragi used a lot of that data for Dash.

    And let's not forget that in the field of truly wireless earbuds, Bragi was the real innovator in the field.

    AirPods have all those ideas (right down to the carry case that also charges) and add a couple of ideas. In fact, if Apple had produced the Dash first and Bragi had followed with AirPods, a lot of people would have been howling about Bragi stealing Apple's work! The form factor is different but hardly original.

    The biggest drawback back on AirPods from a design perspective is the colour options.

    Honor adds BoneID and makes the carry case wireless chargeable (perfect for a reverse charging phone like the Mate 20 Pro). Honor also has a partnership with DJI for a voice controlled drone for which the Fly Pods will also prove useful.
    You keep going back to features, not Industrial Design, which was your original, and mocking, comment of Jony Ive and Apple. 

    I get that Huawei has to have a whole lot of features to stand out from the rest of the Android OS devices, but, that isn't the same as Industrial Design, which I'm not seeing that Huawei has any strength in.

    "Before AirPods came along, the Bragi Dash was the poster child for truly wireless earbuds. And yet, even with that cachet, the product was fraught with problems. The earbuds featured a so-so battery life of about two to three hours. Using them for voice calls, or even to talk to a digital assistant, was pretty much out of the question. Worst of all, the earbuds’ connection to a user’s phone would hiccup constantly. For those of us who hate wires, the Dash was not the solution

    Bragi wound up making and selling a second set of earbuds (annoyingly named, collectively, the Headphone) that boasted fewer features, but were therefore cheaper and less complicated. Those turned out to be some of the best wireless earbuds around

    But the $329 Dash Pro, announced in May and released earlier this summer, was supposed to fix all of the problems of the original Dash, while also getting the company back on track toward making brilliant-sounding, truly wireless earbuds with advanced intelligence. Bragi also promised longer battery life, improved voice calling, and added a real-time language translation feature."

    AirPods were released in December 2016, to rave reviews, and set the standard for wireless earbuds, and more to the point, Huawei copied Apple/s Industrial Design, not Bragi's.


    You are mixing things up.

    I said Apple used all of the ideas behind the Dash. That in itself isn't something I find problematic. Lots of people, myself included have had the same ideas but lots of Apple users seem to think that everything is an Apple copy. It isn't. However, don't confuse the idea with the implementation of the idea.

    As for industrial design. I mentioned further up that Huawei has a whole Design Center in Paris with a team of industrial designers. They were responsible for the Mate 10 and P20 series flagships for example. The P20 Pro is probably the best looking phone of the year. The Mate 20 Pro packs a lot into a small space and is highly modular. It also packs the main speaker into the USB-C port without seriously impacting sound when the charger is plugged in. The ultra fast charger block itself is very compact and has a small side indent for better grip when unplugging. At the other end of the charging cable you have a piece of straight reinforced plastic that not only protects the cable termination and includes sensors as part of the safety mechanisms but offers a perfect surface to get a good grip for unplugging from the device. Apple's fray prone designs are not very resistant and very finicky when it comes to grip. Then there is the new Hyper Optical finish on the new Mates which add to the gradient finishes of this year. That's on the outside. Huawei has used microcapsule cooling on the inside and the new Mate X uses graphene film cooling, an smartphone first. The results that were presented at launch were pretty spectacular. They have a new antenna design too which was very hard to pull off.

    Of over 180,000 employees, more than half are involved in R&D and engineering. There are over 28 R&D centers around the world. Two, (Russia and France) specialised in mathematics alone. 
    edited November 2018
  • Reply 68 of 73
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,732member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    how about Apple stop making the same phone year after year come up with a new concept or a new UI  They act like we care about faster this and faster that we want a new phone  I refused the update I will stay with my X Until I am impressed
    What do you want, a circle-phone? How about you figure out that Apple doesn't do change for change's sake? Ive has commented on this many times. Most recently:

    “It starts with the determination not to fall into the trap of just making things different. Because when a product has been highly regarded there is often a desire from people to see it redesigned. I think one of the most important things is that you change something not to make it different but to make it better.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/features/jony-ive-interview-apple-ipad-new-macbook-air-mac-tim-cook-event-a8614421.html
    There's a beautiful English word that comes to mind whenever people speak from a corporate mindset but want to send a 'message': BOLLOCKS!!

    That quote struck a nerve because it is bollocks in the purest form.

    Did the injection moulded (18 months of work!) Flower Power and Dalmatian iMacs make them better? Nope!

    Was the sunflower iMac such a better design hit that it was repeated? Was the hockey puck mouse (with one button) better than those that came before it? Were spring loaded CD trays better than motorised trays?

    Is Jony Ive better to listen to when he looks away from the camera into nothingness on a white background and speaks like he's spaced out? LOL!

    How did iluminating the Apple logo on laptops make them 'better'. How did taking that away make them 'better'? Did eliminating battery status leds make things better. Magsafe was born to resolve a common problem. Given the design of USB-C ports and where the expensive consequences of a damaged connector are, was removing magsafe really better?

    There are many reasons for change! Budget constrictions, industry trends, marketing, doing what your boss tells you do and of course making them better but in any case you need to define 'better' because one man's 'better' can be another man's 'worse'. I'm looking at you, butterfly keyboard!


    Does Huawei even consider Industrial design of its products, and if they do, do they just contract it out like they do camera design? Most everything Huawei looks derivative, like the mini chin, with as many features packed in as possible, and given that Apple and Jony Ive are behind the original designs that these copy, you might want to stop mocking him.

    Yeah, the butterfly switch keyboards have had problems for a small number of the overall users, an engineering and manufacturing problem, and it has certainly evolved in its now third generation, all in the name of cutting the keystroke by 40% over the design from 2015, because thinner Mac's is what the public wants. The biggest issue that Apple has yet to resolve is keystroke noise.
    Industrial design? Huawei has an aesthetic research center in Paris where all the recent designs have come from:

    Try searching for adjectives like 'stunning', 'gorgeous', 'beautiful' plus Huawei.

    Camera design is not contracted out. It is co-engineered with Leica. It has its own Imaging and Video Technology R&D Centre in Tampere, employing some of the biggest names in the business:

    https://businesstampere.com/business-environment/business-ecosystems/imaging/huawei/


    They have spillproof keyboards on laptops too. ;-)
    You haven't made your case, and as for "aesthetic research center in Paris", i'm guessing that they gave the okay to the FlyPod's, which obviously stole Apple's AirPod design language.

    Jony and Apple's ID team are already credited with a number of original designs that Huawei, and just about every other consumer electronics company, have used as reference designs for their own products, not to mention the manufacturing processes that Apple has originated. Oh, and the Leica Camera that he designed, and of course, Apple Headquarters that he was instrumental in.

    In fairness to Huawei, they really haven't been around that long in consumer electronics, and they don't actually make very many product lines.

    Were Huawei to create a new product with original design, then I would certainly acknowledge that, but so far, everything that they have done is either derivative, or derivative with some evolution, aka the camera system on the Mate Pro.

    BFD 
    Try imagining Air Pods with cables. That is what came before. Removing the cables wasn't really an exercise in industrial design. 

    The secret is on the inside, not the outside, and in fact they are actually different.

    In that regard Huawei/Honor has also added something new on the pro version. Bone ID.
    Yeah, Apple spent a shit ton of time analyzing data from thousands of individual's ears to come up with the design of the Ear Pods, so I think it is fair for them to evolve that design into AirPods. 

    Bone ID, Touch, and some kind of face ID, all in the Mate P20 pro series.

    You would almost think that the designers and engineers couldn't decide what was best, so they used everything that they could throw in.

    That isn't good design, BTW, but you seem to really like it, so there's that going for them.
    I'm the sceptical type. For Bone ID, we'll have to see how it works in the wild. The idea is good, though.

    As for multiple biometric options, it all boils down to choice. It's nice to have options. Currently there are only two on Huawei phones (BoneID is of no use without the buds).

    Data on ear shape has been accumulated for decades by hearing aid companies. In fact, Bragi used a lot of that data for Dash.

    And let's not forget that in the field of truly wireless earbuds, Bragi was the real innovator in the field.

    AirPods have all those ideas (right down to the carry case that also charges) and add a couple of ideas. In fact, if Apple had produced the Dash first and Bragi had followed with AirPods, a lot of people would have been howling about Bragi stealing Apple's work! The form factor is different but hardly original.

    The biggest drawback back on AirPods from a design perspective is the colour options.

    Honor adds BoneID and makes the carry case wireless chargeable (perfect for a reverse charging phone like the Mate 20 Pro). Honor also has a partnership with DJI for a voice controlled drone for which the Fly Pods will also prove useful.
    You keep going back to features, not Industrial Design, which was your original, and mocking, comment of Jony Ive and Apple. 

    I get that Huawei has to have a whole lot of features to stand out from the rest of the Android OS devices, but, that isn't the same as Industrial Design, which I'm not seeing that Huawei has any strength in.

    "Before AirPods came along, the Bragi Dash was the poster child for truly wireless earbuds. And yet, even with that cachet, the product was fraught with problems. The earbuds featured a so-so battery life of about two to three hours. Using them for voice calls, or even to talk to a digital assistant, was pretty much out of the question. Worst of all, the earbuds’ connection to a user’s phone would hiccup constantly. For those of us who hate wires, the Dash was not the solution

    Bragi wound up making and selling a second set of earbuds (annoyingly named, collectively, the Headphone) that boasted fewer features, but were therefore cheaper and less complicated. Those turned out to be some of the best wireless earbuds around

    But the $329 Dash Pro, announced in May and released earlier this summer, was supposed to fix all of the problems of the original Dash, while also getting the company back on track toward making brilliant-sounding, truly wireless earbuds with advanced intelligence. Bragi also promised longer battery life, improved voice calling, and added a real-time language translation feature."

    AirPods were released in December 2016, to rave reviews, and set the standard for wireless earbuds, and more to the point, Huawei copied Apple/s Industrial Design, not Bragi's.


    You are mixing things up.

    I said Apple used all of the ideas behind the Dash. That in itself isn't something I find problematic. Lots of people, myself included have had the same ideas but lots of Apple users seem to think that everything is an Apple copy. It isn't. However, don't confuse the idea with the implementation of the idea.

    As for industrial design. I mentioned further up that Huawei has a whole Design Center in Paris with a team of industrial designers. They were responsible for the Mate 10 and P20 series flagships for example. The P20 Pro is probably the best looking phone of the year. The Mate 20 Pro packs a lot into a small space and is highly modular. It also packs the main speaker into the USB-C port without seriously impacting sound when the charger is plugged in. The ultra fast charger block itself is very compact and has a small side indent for better grip when unplugging. At the other end of the charging cable you have a piece of straight reinforced plastic that not only protects the cable termination and includes sensors as part of the safety mechanisms but offers a perfect surface to get a good grip for unplugging from the device. Apple's fray prone designs are not very resistant and very finicky when it comes to grip. Then there is the new Hyper Optical finish on the new Mates which add to the gradient finishes of this year. That's on the outside. Huawei has used microcapsule cooling on the inside and the new Mate X uses graphene film cooling, an smartphone first. The results that were presented at launch were pretty spectacular. They have a new antenna design too which was very hard to pull off.

    Of over 180,000 employees, more than half are involved in R&D and engineering. There are over 28 R&D centers around the world. Two, (Russia and France) specialised in mathematics alone. 
    "Used all of the ideas behind the Dash".

    Really need to back that up with data, because it sounds like BS to me. More to the point, why would Huawei and Xiaomi both copy Apple, when they could have copied Bragi?

    I am reminded of the HomePod design which was unlike anything designed previously other than a professional speaker. You might want to consider that Apple has competent R&D for most all of the technologies that they use in house, audio and imaging being notable.

    Otherwise, thanks for the Huawei PR statement, but you still have failed to convince me.

    Ta Ta.

    BTW, the iPhone 7 and 7 Plus was announced in Sept of 2016, and notably, had no headphone jack.

    Pretty bold move for a company that was supposedly copying Bragi's technology that was only released in late 2015, less than a year earlier. Can you see how your bullshit argument falls apart?
    edited November 2018
  • Reply 69 of 73
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,753member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    how about Apple stop making the same phone year after year come up with a new concept or a new UI  They act like we care about faster this and faster that we want a new phone  I refused the update I will stay with my X Until I am impressed
    What do you want, a circle-phone? How about you figure out that Apple doesn't do change for change's sake? Ive has commented on this many times. Most recently:

    “It starts with the determination not to fall into the trap of just making things different. Because when a product has been highly regarded there is often a desire from people to see it redesigned. I think one of the most important things is that you change something not to make it different but to make it better.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/features/jony-ive-interview-apple-ipad-new-macbook-air-mac-tim-cook-event-a8614421.html
    There's a beautiful English word that comes to mind whenever people speak from a corporate mindset but want to send a 'message': BOLLOCKS!!

    That quote struck a nerve because it is bollocks in the purest form.

    Did the injection moulded (18 months of work!) Flower Power and Dalmatian iMacs make them better? Nope!

    Was the sunflower iMac such a better design hit that it was repeated? Was the hockey puck mouse (with one button) better than those that came before it? Were spring loaded CD trays better than motorised trays?

    Is Jony Ive better to listen to when he looks away from the camera into nothingness on a white background and speaks like he's spaced out? LOL!

    How did iluminating the Apple logo on laptops make them 'better'. How did taking that away make them 'better'? Did eliminating battery status leds make things better. Magsafe was born to resolve a common problem. Given the design of USB-C ports and where the expensive consequences of a damaged connector are, was removing magsafe really better?

    There are many reasons for change! Budget constrictions, industry trends, marketing, doing what your boss tells you do and of course making them better but in any case you need to define 'better' because one man's 'better' can be another man's 'worse'. I'm looking at you, butterfly keyboard!


    Does Huawei even consider Industrial design of its products, and if they do, do they just contract it out like they do camera design? Most everything Huawei looks derivative, like the mini chin, with as many features packed in as possible, and given that Apple and Jony Ive are behind the original designs that these copy, you might want to stop mocking him.

    Yeah, the butterfly switch keyboards have had problems for a small number of the overall users, an engineering and manufacturing problem, and it has certainly evolved in its now third generation, all in the name of cutting the keystroke by 40% over the design from 2015, because thinner Mac's is what the public wants. The biggest issue that Apple has yet to resolve is keystroke noise.
    Industrial design? Huawei has an aesthetic research center in Paris where all the recent designs have come from:

    Try searching for adjectives like 'stunning', 'gorgeous', 'beautiful' plus Huawei.

    Camera design is not contracted out. It is co-engineered with Leica. It has its own Imaging and Video Technology R&D Centre in Tampere, employing some of the biggest names in the business:

    https://businesstampere.com/business-environment/business-ecosystems/imaging/huawei/


    They have spillproof keyboards on laptops too. ;-)
    You haven't made your case, and as for "aesthetic research center in Paris", i'm guessing that they gave the okay to the FlyPod's, which obviously stole Apple's AirPod design language.

    Jony and Apple's ID team are already credited with a number of original designs that Huawei, and just about every other consumer electronics company, have used as reference designs for their own products, not to mention the manufacturing processes that Apple has originated. Oh, and the Leica Camera that he designed, and of course, Apple Headquarters that he was instrumental in.

    In fairness to Huawei, they really haven't been around that long in consumer electronics, and they don't actually make very many product lines.

    Were Huawei to create a new product with original design, then I would certainly acknowledge that, but so far, everything that they have done is either derivative, or derivative with some evolution, aka the camera system on the Mate Pro.

    BFD 
    Try imagining Air Pods with cables. That is what came before. Removing the cables wasn't really an exercise in industrial design. 

    The secret is on the inside, not the outside, and in fact they are actually different.

    In that regard Huawei/Honor has also added something new on the pro version. Bone ID.
    Yeah, Apple spent a shit ton of time analyzing data from thousands of individual's ears to come up with the design of the Ear Pods, so I think it is fair for them to evolve that design into AirPods. 

    Bone ID, Touch, and some kind of face ID, all in the Mate P20 pro series.

    You would almost think that the designers and engineers couldn't decide what was best, so they used everything that they could throw in.

    That isn't good design, BTW, but you seem to really like it, so there's that going for them.
    I'm the sceptical type. For Bone ID, we'll have to see how it works in the wild. The idea is good, though.

    As for multiple biometric options, it all boils down to choice. It's nice to have options. Currently there are only two on Huawei phones (BoneID is of no use without the buds).

    Data on ear shape has been accumulated for decades by hearing aid companies. In fact, Bragi used a lot of that data for Dash.

    And let's not forget that in the field of truly wireless earbuds, Bragi was the real innovator in the field.

    AirPods have all those ideas (right down to the carry case that also charges) and add a couple of ideas. In fact, if Apple had produced the Dash first and Bragi had followed with AirPods, a lot of people would have been howling about Bragi stealing Apple's work! The form factor is different but hardly original.

    The biggest drawback back on AirPods from a design perspective is the colour options.

    Honor adds BoneID and makes the carry case wireless chargeable (perfect for a reverse charging phone like the Mate 20 Pro). Honor also has a partnership with DJI for a voice controlled drone for which the Fly Pods will also prove useful.
    You keep going back to features, not Industrial Design, which was your original, and mocking, comment of Jony Ive and Apple. 

    I get that Huawei has to have a whole lot of features to stand out from the rest of the Android OS devices, but, that isn't the same as Industrial Design, which I'm not seeing that Huawei has any strength in.

    "Before AirPods came along, the Bragi Dash was the poster child for truly wireless earbuds. And yet, even with that cachet, the product was fraught with problems. The earbuds featured a so-so battery life of about two to three hours. Using them for voice calls, or even to talk to a digital assistant, was pretty much out of the question. Worst of all, the earbuds’ connection to a user’s phone would hiccup constantly. For those of us who hate wires, the Dash was not the solution

    Bragi wound up making and selling a second set of earbuds (annoyingly named, collectively, the Headphone) that boasted fewer features, but were therefore cheaper and less complicated. Those turned out to be some of the best wireless earbuds around

    But the $329 Dash Pro, announced in May and released earlier this summer, was supposed to fix all of the problems of the original Dash, while also getting the company back on track toward making brilliant-sounding, truly wireless earbuds with advanced intelligence. Bragi also promised longer battery life, improved voice calling, and added a real-time language translation feature."

    AirPods were released in December 2016, to rave reviews, and set the standard for wireless earbuds, and more to the point, Huawei copied Apple/s Industrial Design, not Bragi's.


    You are mixing things up.

    I said Apple used all of the ideas behind the Dash. That in itself isn't something I find problematic. Lots of people, myself included have had the same ideas but lots of Apple users seem to think that everything is an Apple copy. It isn't. However, don't confuse the idea with the implementation of the idea.

    As for industrial design. I mentioned further up that Huawei has a whole Design Center in Paris with a team of industrial designers. They were responsible for the Mate 10 and P20 series flagships for example. The P20 Pro is probably the best looking phone of the year. The Mate 20 Pro packs a lot into a small space and is highly modular. It also packs the main speaker into the USB-C port without seriously impacting sound when the charger is plugged in. The ultra fast charger block itself is very compact and has a small side indent for better grip when unplugging. At the other end of the charging cable you have a piece of straight reinforced plastic that not only protects the cable termination and includes sensors as part of the safety mechanisms but offers a perfect surface to get a good grip for unplugging from the device. Apple's fray prone designs are not very resistant and very finicky when it comes to grip. Then there is the new Hyper Optical finish on the new Mates which add to the gradient finishes of this year. That's on the outside. Huawei has used microcapsule cooling on the inside and the new Mate X uses graphene film cooling, an smartphone first. The results that were presented at launch were pretty spectacular. They have a new antenna design too which was very hard to pull off.

    Of over 180,000 employees, more than half are involved in R&D and engineering. There are over 28 R&D centers around the world. Two, (Russia and France) specialised in mathematics alone. 
    "Used all of the ideas behind the Dash".

    Really need to back that up with data, because it sounds like BS to me. More to the point, why would Huawei and Xiaomi both copy Apple, when they could have copied Bragi?

    I am reminded of the HomePod design which was unlike anything designed previously other than a professional speaker. You might want to consider that Apple has competent R&D for most all of the technologies that they use in house, audio and imaging being notable.

    Otherwise, thanks for the Huawei PR statement, but you still have failed to convince me.

    Ta Ta.

    BTW, the iPhone 7 and 7 Plus was announced in Sept of 2016, and notably, had no headphone jack.

    Pretty bold move for a company that was supposedly copying Bragi's technology that was only released in late 2015, less than a year earlier. Can you see how your bullshit argument falls apart?
    Bragi Dash: truly wireless, touch capable, accelerometers, fitness sensors, gestures, charging carry case...

    When it came to ideas, they had a few.

    Apple added a couple of things and slotted it into the existing hardware/software setup.

    One of the reasons for the stems are the mics and batteries. Like BT headsets from years ago. Exactly the same use, simply larger due to the period (then, they were 'small')

    The result IMO is very nice (you haven't heard me criticise it) but from a design perspective no different in practice from hundreds of cabled designs already commonplace on the market. Snip those cables off and you have 'Air Pods', simply slimmer.

    From my personal view, the observations are that 'white' is supremely boring and that, for all the studies, they don't stay in my ears. But neither do many other brands (wired or otherwise). In fact, the Freebuds/Flypods are different from that perspective (as I said earlier) in that they have silicone adapters which are 'in ear', thus offering a higher degree of noise isolation.

    I'm just guessing here, but imagine being able to have a voice controlled drone follow you on your bike and record you as you go cross country.

    Apple's R&D isn't in question although they have actually bought in a lot tech to bolster areas where it has been found lacking. Key areas too.

    I fail to see what removing the headphone jack has to do with anything. Conceptually, nothing has changed. You still have wired and wireless options.

    On the HomePod I have always questioned the design concept behind a 360 speaker system with a two metre power cord.

    Allow for the rise to a table and it is impossible to position it centrally in most rooms and doing so involves an extension lead (there's a call for Magsafe if ever there was one). Therefore most units will be acting like shelf speakers from a positional sense, negating the idea behind a 360 system.


    edited November 2018
  • Reply 70 of 73
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,732member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    how about Apple stop making the same phone year after year come up with a new concept or a new UI  They act like we care about faster this and faster that we want a new phone  I refused the update I will stay with my X Until I am impressed
    What do you want, a circle-phone? How about you figure out that Apple doesn't do change for change's sake? Ive has commented on this many times. Most recently:

    “It starts with the determination not to fall into the trap of just making things different. Because when a product has been highly regarded there is often a desire from people to see it redesigned. I think one of the most important things is that you change something not to make it different but to make it better.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/features/jony-ive-interview-apple-ipad-new-macbook-air-mac-tim-cook-event-a8614421.html
    There's a beautiful English word that comes to mind whenever people speak from a corporate mindset but want to send a 'message': BOLLOCKS!!

    That quote struck a nerve because it is bollocks in the purest form.

    Did the injection moulded (18 months of work!) Flower Power and Dalmatian iMacs make them better? Nope!

    Was the sunflower iMac such a better design hit that it was repeated? Was the hockey puck mouse (with one button) better than those that came before it? Were spring loaded CD trays better than motorised trays?

    Is Jony Ive better to listen to when he looks away from the camera into nothingness on a white background and speaks like he's spaced out? LOL!

    How did iluminating the Apple logo on laptops make them 'better'. How did taking that away make them 'better'? Did eliminating battery status leds make things better. Magsafe was born to resolve a common problem. Given the design of USB-C ports and where the expensive consequences of a damaged connector are, was removing magsafe really better?

    There are many reasons for change! Budget constrictions, industry trends, marketing, doing what your boss tells you do and of course making them better but in any case you need to define 'better' because one man's 'better' can be another man's 'worse'. I'm looking at you, butterfly keyboard!


    Does Huawei even consider Industrial design of its products, and if they do, do they just contract it out like they do camera design? Most everything Huawei looks derivative, like the mini chin, with as many features packed in as possible, and given that Apple and Jony Ive are behind the original designs that these copy, you might want to stop mocking him.

    Yeah, the butterfly switch keyboards have had problems for a small number of the overall users, an engineering and manufacturing problem, and it has certainly evolved in its now third generation, all in the name of cutting the keystroke by 40% over the design from 2015, because thinner Mac's is what the public wants. The biggest issue that Apple has yet to resolve is keystroke noise.
    Industrial design? Huawei has an aesthetic research center in Paris where all the recent designs have come from:

    Try searching for adjectives like 'stunning', 'gorgeous', 'beautiful' plus Huawei.

    Camera design is not contracted out. It is co-engineered with Leica. It has its own Imaging and Video Technology R&D Centre in Tampere, employing some of the biggest names in the business:

    https://businesstampere.com/business-environment/business-ecosystems/imaging/huawei/


    They have spillproof keyboards on laptops too. ;-)
    You haven't made your case, and as for "aesthetic research center in Paris", i'm guessing that they gave the okay to the FlyPod's, which obviously stole Apple's AirPod design language.

    Jony and Apple's ID team are already credited with a number of original designs that Huawei, and just about every other consumer electronics company, have used as reference designs for their own products, not to mention the manufacturing processes that Apple has originated. Oh, and the Leica Camera that he designed, and of course, Apple Headquarters that he was instrumental in.

    In fairness to Huawei, they really haven't been around that long in consumer electronics, and they don't actually make very many product lines.

    Were Huawei to create a new product with original design, then I would certainly acknowledge that, but so far, everything that they have done is either derivative, or derivative with some evolution, aka the camera system on the Mate Pro.

    BFD 
    Try imagining Air Pods with cables. That is what came before. Removing the cables wasn't really an exercise in industrial design. 

    The secret is on the inside, not the outside, and in fact they are actually different.

    In that regard Huawei/Honor has also added something new on the pro version. Bone ID.
    Yeah, Apple spent a shit ton of time analyzing data from thousands of individual's ears to come up with the design of the Ear Pods, so I think it is fair for them to evolve that design into AirPods. 

    Bone ID, Touch, and some kind of face ID, all in the Mate P20 pro series.

    You would almost think that the designers and engineers couldn't decide what was best, so they used everything that they could throw in.

    That isn't good design, BTW, but you seem to really like it, so there's that going for them.
    I'm the sceptical type. For Bone ID, we'll have to see how it works in the wild. The idea is good, though.

    As for multiple biometric options, it all boils down to choice. It's nice to have options. Currently there are only two on Huawei phones (BoneID is of no use without the buds).

    Data on ear shape has been accumulated for decades by hearing aid companies. In fact, Bragi used a lot of that data for Dash.

    And let's not forget that in the field of truly wireless earbuds, Bragi was the real innovator in the field.

    AirPods have all those ideas (right down to the carry case that also charges) and add a couple of ideas. In fact, if Apple had produced the Dash first and Bragi had followed with AirPods, a lot of people would have been howling about Bragi stealing Apple's work! The form factor is different but hardly original.

    The biggest drawback back on AirPods from a design perspective is the colour options.

    Honor adds BoneID and makes the carry case wireless chargeable (perfect for a reverse charging phone like the Mate 20 Pro). Honor also has a partnership with DJI for a voice controlled drone for which the Fly Pods will also prove useful.
    You keep going back to features, not Industrial Design, which was your original, and mocking, comment of Jony Ive and Apple. 

    I get that Huawei has to have a whole lot of features to stand out from the rest of the Android OS devices, but, that isn't the same as Industrial Design, which I'm not seeing that Huawei has any strength in.

    "Before AirPods came along, the Bragi Dash was the poster child for truly wireless earbuds. And yet, even with that cachet, the product was fraught with problems. The earbuds featured a so-so battery life of about two to three hours. Using them for voice calls, or even to talk to a digital assistant, was pretty much out of the question. Worst of all, the earbuds’ connection to a user’s phone would hiccup constantly. For those of us who hate wires, the Dash was not the solution

    Bragi wound up making and selling a second set of earbuds (annoyingly named, collectively, the Headphone) that boasted fewer features, but were therefore cheaper and less complicated. Those turned out to be some of the best wireless earbuds around

    But the $329 Dash Pro, announced in May and released earlier this summer, was supposed to fix all of the problems of the original Dash, while also getting the company back on track toward making brilliant-sounding, truly wireless earbuds with advanced intelligence. Bragi also promised longer battery life, improved voice calling, and added a real-time language translation feature."

    AirPods were released in December 2016, to rave reviews, and set the standard for wireless earbuds, and more to the point, Huawei copied Apple/s Industrial Design, not Bragi's.


    You are mixing things up.

    I said Apple used all of the ideas behind the Dash. That in itself isn't something I find problematic. Lots of people, myself included have had the same ideas but lots of Apple users seem to think that everything is an Apple copy. It isn't. However, don't confuse the idea with the implementation of the idea.

    As for industrial design. I mentioned further up that Huawei has a whole Design Center in Paris with a team of industrial designers. They were responsible for the Mate 10 and P20 series flagships for example. The P20 Pro is probably the best looking phone of the year. The Mate 20 Pro packs a lot into a small space and is highly modular. It also packs the main speaker into the USB-C port without seriously impacting sound when the charger is plugged in. The ultra fast charger block itself is very compact and has a small side indent for better grip when unplugging. At the other end of the charging cable you have a piece of straight reinforced plastic that not only protects the cable termination and includes sensors as part of the safety mechanisms but offers a perfect surface to get a good grip for unplugging from the device. Apple's fray prone designs are not very resistant and very finicky when it comes to grip. Then there is the new Hyper Optical finish on the new Mates which add to the gradient finishes of this year. That's on the outside. Huawei has used microcapsule cooling on the inside and the new Mate X uses graphene film cooling, an smartphone first. The results that were presented at launch were pretty spectacular. They have a new antenna design too which was very hard to pull off.

    Of over 180,000 employees, more than half are involved in R&D and engineering. There are over 28 R&D centers around the world. Two, (Russia and France) specialised in mathematics alone. 
    "Used all of the ideas behind the Dash".

    Really need to back that up with data, because it sounds like BS to me. More to the point, why would Huawei and Xiaomi both copy Apple, when they could have copied Bragi?

    I am reminded of the HomePod design which was unlike anything designed previously other than a professional speaker. You might want to consider that Apple has competent R&D for most all of the technologies that they use in house, audio and imaging being notable.

    Otherwise, thanks for the Huawei PR statement, but you still have failed to convince me.

    Ta Ta.

    BTW, the iPhone 7 and 7 Plus was announced in Sept of 2016, and notably, had no headphone jack.

    Pretty bold move for a company that was supposedly copying Bragi's technology that was only released in late 2015, less than a year earlier. Can you see how your bullshit argument falls apart?
    Bragi Dash: truly wireless, touch capable, accelerometers, fitness sensors, gestures, charging carry case...

    When it came to ideas, they had a few.

    Apple added a couple of things and slotted it into the existing hardware/software setup.

    One of the reasons for the stems are the mics and batteries. Like BT headsets from years ago. Exactly the same use, simply larger due to the period (then, they were 'small')

    The result IMO is very nice (you haven't heard me criticise it) but from a design perspective no different in practice from hundreds of cabled designs already commonplace on the market. Snip those cables off and you have 'Air Pods', simply slimmer.

    From my personal view, the observations are that 'white' is supremely boring and that, for all the studies, they don't stay in my ears. But neither do many other brands (wired or otherwise). In fact, the Freebuds/Flypods are different from that perspective (as I said earlier) in that they have silicone adapters which are 'in ear', thus offering a higher degree of noise isolation.

    I'm just guessing here, but imagine being able to have a voice controlled drone follow you on your bike and record you as you go cross country.

    Apple's R&D isn't in question although they have actually bought in a lot tech to bolster areas where it has been found lacking. Key areas too.

    I fail to see what removing the headphone jack has to do with anything. Conceptually, nothing has changed. You still have wired and wireless options.

    On the HomePod I have always questioned the design concept behind a 360 speaker system with a two metre power cord.

    Allow for the rise to a table and it is impossible to position it centrally in most rooms and doing so involves an extension lead (there's a call for Magsafe if ever there was one). Therefore most units will be acting like shelf speakers from a positional sense, negating the idea behind a 360 system.


    So, your implication is that Apple found out what Bragi was creating, likely at the time of the kickstarter campaign, which would have been something like early 2014, and Apple responded by creating a near perfect system by late 2016, including developing the W1 chip.

    That's pretty impressive in itself, but likely not accurate. Again, Apple has it's own audio team, and they would have been aware of all of the trends in industry even before Bragi. All of this doesn't change the point that Huawei and Xiaomi copied Apple's AirPod design.

    As for you limited knowledge to the HomePod; it isn't necessary to place a 360 degree speaker in the middle of a room. The HomePod was notable for its extremely high level of active control of its speakers and microphones such that it can actively model the room and configure and optimize the sound to that.

    All of these responses of yours are poor defense for Huawei's inferior Industrial Design vs Apple.
    edited November 2018
  • Reply 71 of 73
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,753member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    how about Apple stop making the same phone year after year come up with a new concept or a new UI  They act like we care about faster this and faster that we want a new phone  I refused the update I will stay with my X Until I am impressed
    What do you want, a circle-phone? How about you figure out that Apple doesn't do change for change's sake? Ive has commented on this many times. Most recently:

    “It starts with the determination not to fall into the trap of just making things different. Because when a product has been highly regarded there is often a desire from people to see it redesigned. I think one of the most important things is that you change something not to make it different but to make it better.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/features/jony-ive-interview-apple-ipad-new-macbook-air-mac-tim-cook-event-a8614421.html
    There's a beautiful English word that comes to mind whenever people speak from a corporate mindset but want to send a 'message': BOLLOCKS!!

    That quote struck a nerve because it is bollocks in the purest form.

    Did the injection moulded (18 months of work!) Flower Power and Dalmatian iMacs make them better? Nope!

    Was the sunflower iMac such a better design hit that it was repeated? Was the hockey puck mouse (with one button) better than those that came before it? Were spring loaded CD trays better than motorised trays?

    Is Jony Ive better to listen to when he looks away from the camera into nothingness on a white background and speaks like he's spaced out? LOL!

    How did iluminating the Apple logo on laptops make them 'better'. How did taking that away make them 'better'? Did eliminating battery status leds make things better. Magsafe was born to resolve a common problem. Given the design of USB-C ports and where the expensive consequences of a damaged connector are, was removing magsafe really better?

    There are many reasons for change! Budget constrictions, industry trends, marketing, doing what your boss tells you do and of course making them better but in any case you need to define 'better' because one man's 'better' can be another man's 'worse'. I'm looking at you, butterfly keyboard!


    Does Huawei even consider Industrial design of its products, and if they do, do they just contract it out like they do camera design? Most everything Huawei looks derivative, like the mini chin, with as many features packed in as possible, and given that Apple and Jony Ive are behind the original designs that these copy, you might want to stop mocking him.

    Yeah, the butterfly switch keyboards have had problems for a small number of the overall users, an engineering and manufacturing problem, and it has certainly evolved in its now third generation, all in the name of cutting the keystroke by 40% over the design from 2015, because thinner Mac's is what the public wants. The biggest issue that Apple has yet to resolve is keystroke noise.
    Industrial design? Huawei has an aesthetic research center in Paris where all the recent designs have come from:

    Try searching for adjectives like 'stunning', 'gorgeous', 'beautiful' plus Huawei.

    Camera design is not contracted out. It is co-engineered with Leica. It has its own Imaging and Video Technology R&D Centre in Tampere, employing some of the biggest names in the business:

    https://businesstampere.com/business-environment/business-ecosystems/imaging/huawei/


    They have spillproof keyboards on laptops too. ;-)
    You haven't made your case, and as for "aesthetic research center in Paris", i'm guessing that they gave the okay to the FlyPod's, which obviously stole Apple's AirPod design language.

    Jony and Apple's ID team are already credited with a number of original designs that Huawei, and just about every other consumer electronics company, have used as reference designs for their own products, not to mention the manufacturing processes that Apple has originated. Oh, and the Leica Camera that he designed, and of course, Apple Headquarters that he was instrumental in.

    In fairness to Huawei, they really haven't been around that long in consumer electronics, and they don't actually make very many product lines.

    Were Huawei to create a new product with original design, then I would certainly acknowledge that, but so far, everything that they have done is either derivative, or derivative with some evolution, aka the camera system on the Mate Pro.

    BFD 
    Try imagining Air Pods with cables. That is what came before. Removing the cables wasn't really an exercise in industrial design. 

    The secret is on the inside, not the outside, and in fact they are actually different.

    In that regard Huawei/Honor has also added something new on the pro version. Bone ID.
    Yeah, Apple spent a shit ton of time analyzing data from thousands of individual's ears to come up with the design of the Ear Pods, so I think it is fair for them to evolve that design into AirPods. 

    Bone ID, Touch, and some kind of face ID, all in the Mate P20 pro series.

    You would almost think that the designers and engineers couldn't decide what was best, so they used everything that they could throw in.

    That isn't good design, BTW, but you seem to really like it, so there's that going for them.
    I'm the sceptical type. For Bone ID, we'll have to see how it works in the wild. The idea is good, though.

    As for multiple biometric options, it all boils down to choice. It's nice to have options. Currently there are only two on Huawei phones (BoneID is of no use without the buds).

    Data on ear shape has been accumulated for decades by hearing aid companies. In fact, Bragi used a lot of that data for Dash.

    And let's not forget that in the field of truly wireless earbuds, Bragi was the real innovator in the field.

    AirPods have all those ideas (right down to the carry case that also charges) and add a couple of ideas. In fact, if Apple had produced the Dash first and Bragi had followed with AirPods, a lot of people would have been howling about Bragi stealing Apple's work! The form factor is different but hardly original.

    The biggest drawback back on AirPods from a design perspective is the colour options.

    Honor adds BoneID and makes the carry case wireless chargeable (perfect for a reverse charging phone like the Mate 20 Pro). Honor also has a partnership with DJI for a voice controlled drone for which the Fly Pods will also prove useful.
    You keep going back to features, not Industrial Design, which was your original, and mocking, comment of Jony Ive and Apple. 

    I get that Huawei has to have a whole lot of features to stand out from the rest of the Android OS devices, but, that isn't the same as Industrial Design, which I'm not seeing that Huawei has any strength in.

    "Before AirPods came along, the Bragi Dash was the poster child for truly wireless earbuds. And yet, even with that cachet, the product was fraught with problems. The earbuds featured a so-so battery life of about two to three hours. Using them for voice calls, or even to talk to a digital assistant, was pretty much out of the question. Worst of all, the earbuds’ connection to a user’s phone would hiccup constantly. For those of us who hate wires, the Dash was not the solution

    Bragi wound up making and selling a second set of earbuds (annoyingly named, collectively, the Headphone) that boasted fewer features, but were therefore cheaper and less complicated. Those turned out to be some of the best wireless earbuds around

    But the $329 Dash Pro, announced in May and released earlier this summer, was supposed to fix all of the problems of the original Dash, while also getting the company back on track toward making brilliant-sounding, truly wireless earbuds with advanced intelligence. Bragi also promised longer battery life, improved voice calling, and added a real-time language translation feature."

    AirPods were released in December 2016, to rave reviews, and set the standard for wireless earbuds, and more to the point, Huawei copied Apple/s Industrial Design, not Bragi's.


    You are mixing things up.

    I said Apple used all of the ideas behind the Dash. That in itself isn't something I find problematic. Lots of people, myself included have had the same ideas but lots of Apple users seem to think that everything is an Apple copy. It isn't. However, don't confuse the idea with the implementation of the idea.

    As for industrial design. I mentioned further up that Huawei has a whole Design Center in Paris with a team of industrial designers. They were responsible for the Mate 10 and P20 series flagships for example. The P20 Pro is probably the best looking phone of the year. The Mate 20 Pro packs a lot into a small space and is highly modular. It also packs the main speaker into the USB-C port without seriously impacting sound when the charger is plugged in. The ultra fast charger block itself is very compact and has a small side indent for better grip when unplugging. At the other end of the charging cable you have a piece of straight reinforced plastic that not only protects the cable termination and includes sensors as part of the safety mechanisms but offers a perfect surface to get a good grip for unplugging from the device. Apple's fray prone designs are not very resistant and very finicky when it comes to grip. Then there is the new Hyper Optical finish on the new Mates which add to the gradient finishes of this year. That's on the outside. Huawei has used microcapsule cooling on the inside and the new Mate X uses graphene film cooling, an smartphone first. The results that were presented at launch were pretty spectacular. They have a new antenna design too which was very hard to pull off.

    Of over 180,000 employees, more than half are involved in R&D and engineering. There are over 28 R&D centers around the world. Two, (Russia and France) specialised in mathematics alone. 
    "Used all of the ideas behind the Dash".

    Really need to back that up with data, because it sounds like BS to me. More to the point, why would Huawei and Xiaomi both copy Apple, when they could have copied Bragi?

    I am reminded of the HomePod design which was unlike anything designed previously other than a professional speaker. You might want to consider that Apple has competent R&D for most all of the technologies that they use in house, audio and imaging being notable.

    Otherwise, thanks for the Huawei PR statement, but you still have failed to convince me.

    Ta Ta.

    BTW, the iPhone 7 and 7 Plus was announced in Sept of 2016, and notably, had no headphone jack.

    Pretty bold move for a company that was supposedly copying Bragi's technology that was only released in late 2015, less than a year earlier. Can you see how your bullshit argument falls apart?
    Bragi Dash: truly wireless, touch capable, accelerometers, fitness sensors, gestures, charging carry case...

    When it came to ideas, they had a few.

    Apple added a couple of things and slotted it into the existing hardware/software setup.

    One of the reasons for the stems are the mics and batteries. Like BT headsets from years ago. Exactly the same use, simply larger due to the period (then, they were 'small')

    The result IMO is very nice (you haven't heard me criticise it) but from a design perspective no different in practice from hundreds of cabled designs already commonplace on the market. Snip those cables off and you have 'Air Pods', simply slimmer.

    From my personal view, the observations are that 'white' is supremely boring and that, for all the studies, they don't stay in my ears. But neither do many other brands (wired or otherwise). In fact, the Freebuds/Flypods are different from that perspective (as I said earlier) in that they have silicone adapters which are 'in ear', thus offering a higher degree of noise isolation.

    I'm just guessing here, but imagine being able to have a voice controlled drone follow you on your bike and record you as you go cross country.

    Apple's R&D isn't in question although they have actually bought in a lot tech to bolster areas where it has been found lacking. Key areas too.

    I fail to see what removing the headphone jack has to do with anything. Conceptually, nothing has changed. You still have wired and wireless options.

    On the HomePod I have always questioned the design concept behind a 360 speaker system with a two metre power cord.

    Allow for the rise to a table and it is impossible to position it centrally in most rooms and doing so involves an extension lead (there's a call for Magsafe if ever there was one). Therefore most units will be acting like shelf speakers from a positional sense, negating the idea behind a 360 system.


    So, your implication is that Apple found out what Bragi was creating, likely at the time of the kickstarter campaign, which would have been something like early 2014, and Apple responded by creating a near perfect system by late 2016, including developing the W1 chip.

    That's pretty impressive in itself, but likely not accurate. Again, Apple has it's own audio team, and they would have been aware of all of the trends in industry even before Bragi. All of this doesn't change the point that Huawei and Xiaomi copied Apple's AirPod design.

    As for you limited knowledge to the HomePod; it isn't necessary to place a 360 degree speaker in the middle of a room. The HomePod was notable for its extremely high level of active control of its speakers and microphones such that it can actively model the room and configure and optimize the sound to that.

    All of these responses of yours are poor defense for Huawei's inferior Industrial Design vs Apple.
    Not at all. As I made very clear earlier, you can be sure that many people have had the same or similar idea for a very long time.

    Everything that Bragi produced ended up in Air Pods. That should not surprise anyone. However, trying to imply that this idea was in some way an 'Apple thing' and that everyone copied Apple is the real issue. Even from an industrial design perspective. It must have been one of the simplest aesthetic designs to come up with - just cut the cable off. Literally. Everything had literally been done before and for the same reasons. Time just makes it easier to get things smaller and, as I said earlier, the secret to Air Pods resides on the inside of the design and what it connects too. The ideas behind the conceptual design have been around probably since earbuds were conceived.


    edited November 2018
  • Reply 72 of 73
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,732member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    how about Apple stop making the same phone year after year come up with a new concept or a new UI  They act like we care about faster this and faster that we want a new phone  I refused the update I will stay with my X Until I am impressed
    What do you want, a circle-phone? How about you figure out that Apple doesn't do change for change's sake? Ive has commented on this many times. Most recently:

    “It starts with the determination not to fall into the trap of just making things different. Because when a product has been highly regarded there is often a desire from people to see it redesigned. I think one of the most important things is that you change something not to make it different but to make it better.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/features/jony-ive-interview-apple-ipad-new-macbook-air-mac-tim-cook-event-a8614421.html
    There's a beautiful English word that comes to mind whenever people speak from a corporate mindset but want to send a 'message': BOLLOCKS!!

    That quote struck a nerve because it is bollocks in the purest form.

    Did the injection moulded (18 months of work!) Flower Power and Dalmatian iMacs make them better? Nope!

    Was the sunflower iMac such a better design hit that it was repeated? Was the hockey puck mouse (with one button) better than those that came before it? Were spring loaded CD trays better than motorised trays?

    Is Jony Ive better to listen to when he looks away from the camera into nothingness on a white background and speaks like he's spaced out? LOL!

    How did iluminating the Apple logo on laptops make them 'better'. How did taking that away make them 'better'? Did eliminating battery status leds make things better. Magsafe was born to resolve a common problem. Given the design of USB-C ports and where the expensive consequences of a damaged connector are, was removing magsafe really better?

    There are many reasons for change! Budget constrictions, industry trends, marketing, doing what your boss tells you do and of course making them better but in any case you need to define 'better' because one man's 'better' can be another man's 'worse'. I'm looking at you, butterfly keyboard!


    Does Huawei even consider Industrial design of its products, and if they do, do they just contract it out like they do camera design? Most everything Huawei looks derivative, like the mini chin, with as many features packed in as possible, and given that Apple and Jony Ive are behind the original designs that these copy, you might want to stop mocking him.

    Yeah, the butterfly switch keyboards have had problems for a small number of the overall users, an engineering and manufacturing problem, and it has certainly evolved in its now third generation, all in the name of cutting the keystroke by 40% over the design from 2015, because thinner Mac's is what the public wants. The biggest issue that Apple has yet to resolve is keystroke noise.
    Industrial design? Huawei has an aesthetic research center in Paris where all the recent designs have come from:

    Try searching for adjectives like 'stunning', 'gorgeous', 'beautiful' plus Huawei.

    Camera design is not contracted out. It is co-engineered with Leica. It has its own Imaging and Video Technology R&D Centre in Tampere, employing some of the biggest names in the business:

    https://businesstampere.com/business-environment/business-ecosystems/imaging/huawei/


    They have spillproof keyboards on laptops too. ;-)
    You haven't made your case, and as for "aesthetic research center in Paris", i'm guessing that they gave the okay to the FlyPod's, which obviously stole Apple's AirPod design language.

    Jony and Apple's ID team are already credited with a number of original designs that Huawei, and just about every other consumer electronics company, have used as reference designs for their own products, not to mention the manufacturing processes that Apple has originated. Oh, and the Leica Camera that he designed, and of course, Apple Headquarters that he was instrumental in.

    In fairness to Huawei, they really haven't been around that long in consumer electronics, and they don't actually make very many product lines.

    Were Huawei to create a new product with original design, then I would certainly acknowledge that, but so far, everything that they have done is either derivative, or derivative with some evolution, aka the camera system on the Mate Pro.

    BFD 
    Try imagining Air Pods with cables. That is what came before. Removing the cables wasn't really an exercise in industrial design. 

    The secret is on the inside, not the outside, and in fact they are actually different.

    In that regard Huawei/Honor has also added something new on the pro version. Bone ID.
    Yeah, Apple spent a shit ton of time analyzing data from thousands of individual's ears to come up with the design of the Ear Pods, so I think it is fair for them to evolve that design into AirPods. 

    Bone ID, Touch, and some kind of face ID, all in the Mate P20 pro series.

    You would almost think that the designers and engineers couldn't decide what was best, so they used everything that they could throw in.

    That isn't good design, BTW, but you seem to really like it, so there's that going for them.
    I'm the sceptical type. For Bone ID, we'll have to see how it works in the wild. The idea is good, though.

    As for multiple biometric options, it all boils down to choice. It's nice to have options. Currently there are only two on Huawei phones (BoneID is of no use without the buds).

    Data on ear shape has been accumulated for decades by hearing aid companies. In fact, Bragi used a lot of that data for Dash.

    And let's not forget that in the field of truly wireless earbuds, Bragi was the real innovator in the field.

    AirPods have all those ideas (right down to the carry case that also charges) and add a couple of ideas. In fact, if Apple had produced the Dash first and Bragi had followed with AirPods, a lot of people would have been howling about Bragi stealing Apple's work! The form factor is different but hardly original.

    The biggest drawback back on AirPods from a design perspective is the colour options.

    Honor adds BoneID and makes the carry case wireless chargeable (perfect for a reverse charging phone like the Mate 20 Pro). Honor also has a partnership with DJI for a voice controlled drone for which the Fly Pods will also prove useful.
    You keep going back to features, not Industrial Design, which was your original, and mocking, comment of Jony Ive and Apple. 

    I get that Huawei has to have a whole lot of features to stand out from the rest of the Android OS devices, but, that isn't the same as Industrial Design, which I'm not seeing that Huawei has any strength in.

    "Before AirPods came along, the Bragi Dash was the poster child for truly wireless earbuds. And yet, even with that cachet, the product was fraught with problems. The earbuds featured a so-so battery life of about two to three hours. Using them for voice calls, or even to talk to a digital assistant, was pretty much out of the question. Worst of all, the earbuds’ connection to a user’s phone would hiccup constantly. For those of us who hate wires, the Dash was not the solution

    Bragi wound up making and selling a second set of earbuds (annoyingly named, collectively, the Headphone) that boasted fewer features, but were therefore cheaper and less complicated. Those turned out to be some of the best wireless earbuds around

    But the $329 Dash Pro, announced in May and released earlier this summer, was supposed to fix all of the problems of the original Dash, while also getting the company back on track toward making brilliant-sounding, truly wireless earbuds with advanced intelligence. Bragi also promised longer battery life, improved voice calling, and added a real-time language translation feature."

    AirPods were released in December 2016, to rave reviews, and set the standard for wireless earbuds, and more to the point, Huawei copied Apple/s Industrial Design, not Bragi's.


    You are mixing things up.

    I said Apple used all of the ideas behind the Dash. That in itself isn't something I find problematic. Lots of people, myself included have had the same ideas but lots of Apple users seem to think that everything is an Apple copy. It isn't. However, don't confuse the idea with the implementation of the idea.

    As for industrial design. I mentioned further up that Huawei has a whole Design Center in Paris with a team of industrial designers. They were responsible for the Mate 10 and P20 series flagships for example. The P20 Pro is probably the best looking phone of the year. The Mate 20 Pro packs a lot into a small space and is highly modular. It also packs the main speaker into the USB-C port without seriously impacting sound when the charger is plugged in. The ultra fast charger block itself is very compact and has a small side indent for better grip when unplugging. At the other end of the charging cable you have a piece of straight reinforced plastic that not only protects the cable termination and includes sensors as part of the safety mechanisms but offers a perfect surface to get a good grip for unplugging from the device. Apple's fray prone designs are not very resistant and very finicky when it comes to grip. Then there is the new Hyper Optical finish on the new Mates which add to the gradient finishes of this year. That's on the outside. Huawei has used microcapsule cooling on the inside and the new Mate X uses graphene film cooling, an smartphone first. The results that were presented at launch were pretty spectacular. They have a new antenna design too which was very hard to pull off.

    Of over 180,000 employees, more than half are involved in R&D and engineering. There are over 28 R&D centers around the world. Two, (Russia and France) specialised in mathematics alone. 
    "Used all of the ideas behind the Dash".

    Really need to back that up with data, because it sounds like BS to me. More to the point, why would Huawei and Xiaomi both copy Apple, when they could have copied Bragi?

    I am reminded of the HomePod design which was unlike anything designed previously other than a professional speaker. You might want to consider that Apple has competent R&D for most all of the technologies that they use in house, audio and imaging being notable.

    Otherwise, thanks for the Huawei PR statement, but you still have failed to convince me.

    Ta Ta.

    BTW, the iPhone 7 and 7 Plus was announced in Sept of 2016, and notably, had no headphone jack.

    Pretty bold move for a company that was supposedly copying Bragi's technology that was only released in late 2015, less than a year earlier. Can you see how your bullshit argument falls apart?
    Bragi Dash: truly wireless, touch capable, accelerometers, fitness sensors, gestures, charging carry case...

    When it came to ideas, they had a few.

    Apple added a couple of things and slotted it into the existing hardware/software setup.

    One of the reasons for the stems are the mics and batteries. Like BT headsets from years ago. Exactly the same use, simply larger due to the period (then, they were 'small')

    The result IMO is very nice (you haven't heard me criticise it) but from a design perspective no different in practice from hundreds of cabled designs already commonplace on the market. Snip those cables off and you have 'Air Pods', simply slimmer.

    From my personal view, the observations are that 'white' is supremely boring and that, for all the studies, they don't stay in my ears. But neither do many other brands (wired or otherwise). In fact, the Freebuds/Flypods are different from that perspective (as I said earlier) in that they have silicone adapters which are 'in ear', thus offering a higher degree of noise isolation.

    I'm just guessing here, but imagine being able to have a voice controlled drone follow you on your bike and record you as you go cross country.

    Apple's R&D isn't in question although they have actually bought in a lot tech to bolster areas where it has been found lacking. Key areas too.

    I fail to see what removing the headphone jack has to do with anything. Conceptually, nothing has changed. You still have wired and wireless options.

    On the HomePod I have always questioned the design concept behind a 360 speaker system with a two metre power cord.

    Allow for the rise to a table and it is impossible to position it centrally in most rooms and doing so involves an extension lead (there's a call for Magsafe if ever there was one). Therefore most units will be acting like shelf speakers from a positional sense, negating the idea behind a 360 system.


    So, your implication is that Apple found out what Bragi was creating, likely at the time of the kickstarter campaign, which would have been something like early 2014, and Apple responded by creating a near perfect system by late 2016, including developing the W1 chip.

    That's pretty impressive in itself, but likely not accurate. Again, Apple has it's own audio team, and they would have been aware of all of the trends in industry even before Bragi. All of this doesn't change the point that Huawei and Xiaomi copied Apple's AirPod design.

    As for you limited knowledge to the HomePod; it isn't necessary to place a 360 degree speaker in the middle of a room. The HomePod was notable for its extremely high level of active control of its speakers and microphones such that it can actively model the room and configure and optimize the sound to that.

    All of these responses of yours are poor defense for Huawei's inferior Industrial Design vs Apple.
    Not at all. As I made very clear earlier, you can be sure that many people have had the same or similar idea for a very long time.

    Everything that Bragi produced ended up in Air Pods. That should not surprise anyone. However, trying to imply that this idea was in some way an 'Apple thing' and that everyone copied Apple is the real issue. Even from an industrial design perspective. It must have been one of the simplest aesthetic designs to come up with - just cut the cable off. Literally. Everything had literally been done before and for the same reasons. Time just makes it easier to get things smaller and, as I said earlier, the secret to Air Pods resides on the inside of the design and what it connects too. The ideas behind the design have been around probably since earbuds were conceived.


    You are completely unconvincing, and no, you didn't make it clear other than Huawei copied Apple's AirPod design, and you're okay with it because you think it was "easy" for Apple to reuse it's also original EarPod design.

    I'm done here.
  • Reply 73 of 73
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,753member
    For the Home Pod it is clear. From the wall socket and running it straight across the floor you get 2metres. Put it on a table and you get much less. Or you plug it into an extension lead or you have it in a position where 360º speakers are simply not needed. Ironically, this device should have carried a battery and a base charger. Plunk it on a coffee or dining table - sans cable and have it measure/detect where Siri commands come from and fire out replies to where the command came from and at a volume to reach the person. Take it into the bedroom (no cables!) and have AI detect night mode. The thing is crying out for the cable to go - and at some point it will.

    Put it on a shelf or nearby and explain all the beam forming tech to your heart's content but my Cabasse system, NAD Viso, Kuro and lowly Charge 2 all sound great and a HomePod simply won't improve on it enough. 

    If you want something ugly from Huawei, take a look at the AI Cube. It's awful and isn't even a cube!
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