Still, this product feels compromised - either or not to maintain the other, more compromised/aging MacBook models. Processor/port/RAM/HD wise. What about the TouchBar ? Has Apple decided that NOT to be an across-platform standard ? What’s the policy here ? Expandability...service...pfff. The whole planet now sees Apple is broadening its 1 year service window and busy defining repair programs as its quality standards appear to fall. This is not gratitude, it is a principal omission that the current leadership isn’t able or interested to address. I am not prepared to pay the premium price for a 2016-spec product designed not to compromise MBPro 2018 I am prepared to buy a $15 BT tactile keyboard substitute for daily use, which should have Apple ashamed as it denies the whole concept of mobility. My 2015 Air being the best mobile solution to date, is just insane.
Laptops aren’t built for “expandability” and they’re quite serviceable, just not by me which is fine. Like with cars, the compromise is worth it for the attributes I value in a portable — size, weight, etc.
Compromise isn’t a bad word. It surrounds us.
Unfortunately, Apple's obsession with size and weight makes compromise pretty much a moot point. I'm glad these units meet your needs. My needs are more along the lines of a quality keyboard, easy on the eyes screen, maintainability and upgradability.
The 6 year old Thinkpad T410 I'm typing this on is pretty much bullet proof. It's running the current OS, has a great keyboard & screen, double its original RAM (which I could double again if needed), a new 256Gb SSD and a second harddrive for automatic backups & such. But, I'm thinking about tearing it down to apply new thermal grease to the CPU & GPU coolers because its starting to run a little warm when I put demands on it. Fortunately, Lenovo supplies detailed, step by step instructions on how to do that.
We all have unique needs and one size rarely fits all.
The keyboards are quality, despite the very few that had issues in the past. Not liking shallow key travel isn’t the same as not being quality.
Macbooks are maintainable.
You buy buy laptops based on upgradability? Cool story bro. Most people aren’t DIY tinkerers and that is fact. Get a giant Alienware or crappy Dell. Like I said, compromise is all around us...laptops that let you upgrade their components compromise on size, weight, and often look & feel.
Apple compromising bulk for portability isn’t an obsession — it’s whar their customers want. We vote with our wallets, over and over.
Still, this product feels compromised - either or not to maintain the other, more compromised/aging MacBook models. Processor/port/RAM/HD wise. What about the TouchBar ? Has Apple decided that NOT to be an across-platform standard ? What’s the policy here ? Expandability...service...pfff. The whole planet now sees Apple is broadening its 1 year service window and busy defining repair programs as its quality standards appear to fall. This is not gratitude, it is a principal omission that the current leadership isn’t able or interested to address. I am not prepared to pay the premium price for a 2016-spec product designed not to compromise MBPro 2018 I am prepared to buy a $15 BT tactile keyboard substitute for daily use, which should have Apple ashamed as it denies the whole concept of mobility. My 2015 Air being the best mobile solution to date, is just insane.
Laptops aren’t built for “expandability” and they’re quite serviceable, just not by me which is fine. Like with cars, the compromise is worth it for the attributes I value in a portable — size, weight, etc.
Compromise isn’t a bad word. It surrounds us.
Unfortunately, Apple's obsession with size and weight makes compromise pretty much a moot point. I'm glad these units meet your needs. My needs are more along the lines of a quality keyboard, easy on the eyes screen, maintainability and upgradability.
The 6 year old Thinkpad T410 I'm typing this on is pretty much bullet proof. It's running the current OS, has a great keyboard & screen, double its original RAM (which I could double again if needed), a new 256Gb SSD and a second harddrive for automatic backups & such. But, I'm thinking about tearing it down to apply new thermal grease to the CPU & GPU coolers because its starting to run a little warm when I put demands on it. Fortunately, Lenovo supplies detailed, step by step instructions on how to do that.
We all have unique needs and one size rarely fits all.
The keyboards are quality, despite the very few that had issues in the past. Not liking shallow key travel isn’t the same as not being quality.
Macbooks are maintainable.
You buy buy laptops based on upgradability? Cool story bro. Most people aren’t DIY tinkerers and that is fact. Get a giant Alienware or crappy Dell. Like I said, compromise is all around us...laptops that let you upgrade their components compromise on size, weight, and often look & feel.
Apple compromising bulk for portability isn’t an obsession — it’s whar their customers want. We vote with our wallets, over and over.
While I agree, and am myself the kind of Apple buyer you describe, I do think there's room in Apple's lineup for something less svelte and more grunty.
Whatever year it was that Apple was making a lot of noise about how they'd shrunk the chassis of the MacBook Pro to impossibly thin proportions, my reaction was "Why? Those that prefer slim and light already have the Air. Why do we have to compromise the design of the Pro by restricting space and thermals?"
I admit I like the lighter weight and slimmer design of the current MBP over my old Unibody, but if Apple had left it thicker and heavier to allow more RAM, that would have been fine, too. It would not have been a deterrent to me buying it. Who knows, I may been even happier.
Still, this product feels compromised - either or not to maintain the other, more compromised/aging MacBook models. Processor/port/RAM/HD wise. What about the TouchBar ? Has Apple decided that NOT to be an across-platform standard ? What’s the policy here ? Expandability...service...pfff. The whole planet now sees Apple is broadening its 1 year service window and busy defining repair programs as its quality standards appear to fall. This is not gratitude, it is a principal omission that the current leadership isn’t able or interested to address. I am not prepared to pay the premium price for a 2016-spec product designed not to compromise MBPro 2018 I am prepared to buy a $15 BT tactile keyboard substitute for daily use, which should have Apple ashamed as it denies the whole concept of mobility. My 2015 Air being the best mobile solution to date, is just insane.
Laptops aren’t built for “expandability” and they’re quite serviceable, just not by me which is fine. Like with cars, the compromise is worth it for the attributes I value in a portable — size, weight, etc.
Compromise isn’t a bad word. It surrounds us.
Unfortunately, Apple's obsession with size and weight makes compromise pretty much a moot point. I'm glad these units meet your needs. My needs are more along the lines of a quality keyboard, easy on the eyes screen, maintainability and upgradability.
The 6 year old Thinkpad T410 I'm typing this on is pretty much bullet proof. It's running the current OS, has a great keyboard & screen, double its original RAM (which I could double again if needed), a new 256Gb SSD and a second harddrive for automatic backups & such. But, I'm thinking about tearing it down to apply new thermal grease to the CPU & GPU coolers because its starting to run a little warm when I put demands on it. Fortunately, Lenovo supplies detailed, step by step instructions on how to do that.
We all have unique needs and one size rarely fits all.
The keyboards are quality, despite the very few that had issues in the past. Not liking shallow key travel isn’t the same as not being quality.
Macbooks are maintainable.
You buy buy laptops based on upgradability? Cool story bro. Most people aren’t DIY tinkerers and that is fact. Get a giant Alienware or crappy Dell. Like I said, compromise is all around us...laptops that let you upgrade their components compromise on size, weight, and often look & feel.
Apple compromising bulk for portability isn’t an obsession — it’s whar their customers want. We vote with our wallets, over and over.
Buy laptops that can be upgraded to keep up with changing times and demands?
Yeh, I do. Of course. The alternative is to buy a disposable one to keep for a year or two or maybe three and then throw it away. That's one way to do it. But few people would want to throw premium dollars at a disposable product.
And, by the way, from reading these forums you should realize that few people regard MB keyboards as "quality" - either from a functional sense or from a reliability sense. Lenovo keyboards have superior typing feel and reliability -- and when they do break can be cheaply replaced in 10 minutes with nothing more than a phillips head screw driver and the minutely detailed, screw-by-screw Lenovo instructions on how to do it. Those keyboards are functionally superior and more reliable than those in any modern MB.
Basically, the Mac team sacrificed all that in their search for thin & light. For some (actually for many) that is an acceptable trade-off. But, it IS a trade-off. A trade-off that I for one do not want to make. I have no desire to modify my needs to fit the capabilities of a thousand dollar machine.
And, when did they start making MBs maintainable? For the most part they are glued and soldered together so that what you buy initially is what you live with -- until you throw it away.
bestkeptsecret said: I seriously feel that people are just making a mountain out of a molehill.
Spend a few days with mine. I promise that will clear up your "feeling" on the matter right quick.
Then again, if you don't use the letter P very much, maybe you won't mind if pressing the key doesn't always produce a character on screen.
Actually the worst offender at the moment is 6. P seems to be working today. Even when it wasn't, it was less disruptive than when the E key went south or the R produced rrrr every time I touched it.
Actually, that kind of wondering stickiness or lack of responsiveness has always been, in my experience, more a case of some sort machine overload rather than a keyboard problem. I find it is usually resolved by things like:
-- shutting down open programs
-- adding memory
-- rebooting
And, I find that it mostly happens on certain user forums that monitor keystrokes as you type.
But then I use Windows machines and don't use Apple keyboards -- so my experience may not apply.
But, regardless of the cause, it is incredibly frustrating and irritating.
I understand what you're describing. The iOS keyboard is notorious for that, as the predictive text engine tries to keep up.
That's not what's happening with this machine though. Either contaminants get under the keys or the keys themselves just slip, and a particular key will fail and stay failed until a remedy is applied. Then, sometime later, another key will fail and stay failed until cleared. Tolerable on a piece of junk one picked up cheap, but not on a supposedly top-of-the-line machine that cost $5000. My frustration arises from not being able to do anything about it. It's just the way it is, and seemingly always will be.
In an earlier post I agreed with a bunch of other stuff you said, but forgot to address this. They keyboard is not "quality" if it's more vulnerable to failure and less reliable than even a cheap crap laptop from anyone else.
I know you were responding to George, but in my case it has nothing to do with key travel, it's that keys out-and-out fail, period. I don't know if you have a Late 2016 MacBook Pro, but if you do I suspect you must have experienced what's happening with mine. It's not enough to make me throw the computer through the window in disgust (yet), but it sure sucks the joy out of the most expensive computer I've ever owned.
The computer is more excellent than bad. I like it. I would buy it again. The keyboard sucks.
I can agree with Thurrott’s comments here. For office automation and web browsing, basically any ultrabook in the $800 to $1600 range will do the job well. It’s a really mature market these days. It’s been the sign of the times the last few years that most everyone I see at work have laptops, with external monitors at their desks. Ultrabook performance is perfectly fine for office automation work.
An under rated aspect of the MBA is Thunderbolt 3 versus most non Apple laptops. You can drive a 5K monitor with it and that is a pretty pleasant experience at a desk. Or attach an eGPU that’s attached to a 5K monitor. A monitor with built-in speakers and dock with USB, Ethernet, memory card readers is all kind of awesome too.
It seems like a tough decision between brighter display, 2nd gen butterfly keyboard, rectangular form factor in the ‘17 MBP13FN vs dimmer display, 3rd gen keyboard, T2 chip and wedge form factor in the ‘18 MBA. I think I would choose the MBA.
The Pentium/Celeron options (Atom or neutered Core chips), with 4 GB RAM, HDD and 1366x768 TN display, in $300 to $500 “traditional” laptops that Dell or HP or Lenovo sell are basically consumable machines that people suffer through, and quite possibly throw away every 1 to 2 years, or abandon all together because their smartphones do the same job better, should be avoided.
Comments
Macbooks are maintainable.
You buy buy laptops based on upgradability? Cool story bro. Most people aren’t DIY tinkerers and that is fact. Get a giant Alienware or crappy Dell. Like I said, compromise is all around us...laptops that let you upgrade their components compromise on size, weight, and often look & feel.
Apple compromising bulk for portability isn’t an obsession — it’s whar their customers want. We vote with our wallets, over and over.
Whatever year it was that Apple was making a lot of noise about how they'd shrunk the chassis of the MacBook Pro to impossibly thin proportions, my reaction was "Why? Those that prefer slim and light already have the Air. Why do we have to compromise the design of the Pro by restricting space and thermals?"
I admit I like the lighter weight and slimmer design of the current MBP over my old Unibody, but if Apple had left it thicker and heavier to allow more RAM, that would have been fine, too. It would not have been a deterrent to me buying it. Who knows, I may been even happier.
Nice review from Paul Thurrott at https://www.thurrott.com/mobile/mac-and-macos/191301/apple-macbook-air-2018-check-in-performance concentrating on real world use.
Basically, the Mac team sacrificed all that in their search for thin & light. For some (actually for many) that is an acceptable trade-off. But, it IS a trade-off. A trade-off that I for one do not want to make. I have no desire to modify my needs to fit the capabilities of a thousand dollar machine.
And, when did they start making MBs maintainable? For the most part they are glued and soldered together so that what you buy initially is what you live with -- until you throw it away.
That's not what's happening with this machine though. Either contaminants get under the keys or the keys themselves just slip, and a particular key will fail and stay failed until a remedy is applied. Then, sometime later, another key will fail and stay failed until cleared. Tolerable on a piece of junk one picked up cheap, but not on a supposedly top-of-the-line machine that cost $5000. My frustration arises from not being able to do anything about it. It's just the way it is, and seemingly always will be.
I know you were responding to George, but in my case it has nothing to do with key travel, it's that keys out-and-out fail, period. I don't know if you have a Late 2016 MacBook Pro, but if you do I suspect you must have experienced what's happening with mine. It's not enough to make me throw the computer through the window in disgust (yet), but it sure sucks the joy out of the most expensive computer I've ever owned.
The computer is more excellent than bad. I like it. I would buy it again. The keyboard sucks.
An under rated aspect of the MBA is Thunderbolt 3 versus most non Apple laptops. You can drive a 5K monitor with it and that is a pretty pleasant experience at a desk. Or attach an eGPU that’s attached to a 5K monitor. A monitor with built-in speakers and dock with USB, Ethernet, memory card readers is all kind of awesome too.
It seems like a tough decision between brighter display, 2nd gen butterfly keyboard, rectangular form factor in the ‘17 MBP13FN vs dimmer display, 3rd gen keyboard, T2 chip and wedge form factor in the ‘18 MBA. I think I would choose the MBA.
The Pentium/Celeron options (Atom or neutered Core chips), with 4 GB RAM, HDD and 1366x768 TN display, in $300 to $500 “traditional” laptops that Dell or HP or Lenovo sell are basically consumable machines that people suffer through, and quite possibly throw away every 1 to 2 years, or abandon all together because their smartphones do the same job better, should be avoided.