nht said: [...] Apple, like all premium brands, has always been a luxury
That's a realization that's slowly sinking in for me. One of the obvious reasons we prefer Apple products in our house is the ecosystem. Things like Airplay, Handoff, automatic sync between devices via iCloud... those are things we like so we've resisted the temptation to go back to Windows, even though it would be a lot easier to find devices that match our particular preferences because of the much wider selection.
But maybe the things that have kept us on board really are luxuries we can live without. There are lots of things I'd like to have but can't justify at my income level. Maybe Apple product is one of those things.
nht said: [...] that folks of all economic levels can buy into at different levels of the product line
Perhaps true, but only with some pretty significant compromises. When it comes to portable Macs, screen size is the big one. At lower prices there's no option for anything but a tiny screen. Storage is another. The only choices are "inadequate" or "expensive." I haven't looked into it, but I'm confident if I look outside Apple I can find something with a larger screen that trades some storage speed for increased capacity at any given price point. I can't do that with Apple. That doesn't mean that Apple is "doing it wrong" but it may mean that Apple isn't the best supplier for our particular needs.
nht said: [...] Apple, like all premium brands, has always been a luxury
That's a realization that's slowly sinking in for me. One of the obvious reasons we prefer Apple products in our house is the ecosystem. Things like Airplay, Handoff, automatic sync between devices via iCloud... those are things we like so we've resisted the temptation to go back to Windows, even though it would be a lot easier to find devices that match our particular preferences because of the much wider selection.
But maybe the things that have kept us on board really are luxuries we can live without. There are lots of things I'd like to have but can't justify at my income level. Maybe Apple product is one of those things.
nht said: [...] that folks of all economic levels can buy into at different levels of the product line
Perhaps true, but only with some pretty significant compromises. When it comes to portable Macs, screen size is the big one. At lower prices there's no option for anything but a tiny screen. Storage is another. The only choices are "inadequate" or "expensive." I haven't looked into it, but I'm confident if I look outside Apple I can find something with a larger screen that trades some storage speed for increased capacity at any given price point. I can't do that with Apple. That doesn't mean that Apple is "doing it wrong" but it may mean that Apple isn't the best supplier for our particular needs.
Definitely you will find better hardware options for less elsewhere.
I would use the analogy of the difference between the menu from mid-grade chain restaurant to that of a higher end restaurant.
Lots more choices for less money but, presumably you have a nicer dining experience at they high end restaurant.
Apples product menu is like the menu of a high end restaurant. Limited, pricey but presumably worthwhile for many...even us middle class folks that watch our budget.
In your case case you might decide iPhones are worth it but not MBPs...just like i don’t eat at a high end restaurant every day.
In your case case you might decide iPhones are worth it but not MBPs
I thought about that, but wonder if there's enough benefit to iPhones to justify either paying more or accepting an older version if we didn't have Macs. Without the ecosystem, what's the point? We might as well just use droids.
In your case case you might decide iPhones are worth it but not MBPs
I thought about that, but wonder if there's enough benefit to iPhones to justify either paying more or accepting an older version if we didn't have Macs. Without the ecosystem, what's the point? We might as well just use droids.
My use of Macs and iPhones are distantly related...almost everything I used to manage via a Mac is now done directly in iOS or tvOS.
After that it's a question of what apps you use for photo and video management. If I didn't use FCPX I wouldn't need a Mac. I prefer one but I wouldn't need one.
The two ecosystems are complementary but not directly related for me. YMMV but I just prefer Apple vs Amazon for where I buy apps, games, songs and movies and I have a sufficiently large collection that the iOS ecosystem is sticky on its own.
I'm also still using a 6S whereas all of the Android phones purchased for my kids are long dead and even if still alive would be stuck in a 2 year old OS. While iOS 11 was a little sluggish on my old 6, iOS 12 works well enough that one of my kids has it.
I dunno what you do on the Mac that really really impacts what you do on the iPhone. Backups? Media management? Still should be fine on Windows 10.
I'd rather have a 1-2 year old iPhone than a mid-grade Android having owned both. The TCO just ended up being lower on the iPhones because if you get one of those mid-tier flagship killers from Huawei (I preferred ZTE) you find that screen replacement is more hit and miss in terms of availability than with the far more popular Samsung or iPhone. Top tier android flagships aren't that much cheaper than the iPhone either. Plus, the advantages of the A-series chips and iOS efficiency means that there is often processor parity between a 1 year old iPhone and a current Android flagship. Certainly you get longer iOS updates than you get with most Android brands.
What is best for you may vary from the norm but it is false to say that Apple is priced too high for the average individual in 2018. Yes, it's priced higher than Dell or Huawei but the TCO is often lower depending on the useful life expectancy of the devices.
Finally, my phone is the device I most interact with. If I'm going to splurge anywhere, its going to be on the device I use the most.
Is this report talking about gross margins or profit margins? Do you have a comparison of average selling prices over time?
Meaningless to to this discussion. When Dodge started selling the 12-cylinder Viper it would have had a positive effect on ASPs. But it offered a lot more power and sportiness. Apples latest iPhones offer a lot more performance and capabilities versus previous generations. You’d expect ASPs to climb. Gross margins is where the comparison should lay, and this article does a good job pointing out how they have not significantly moved during Cook’s tenure.
The 2010 MBA had more performance and capabilities than the 2008 model but it was cheaper. Same with the $329 iPad compared to the original. Anyone who doesn’t see that Apple is offsetting slower/flat unit sales growth with price increases is blind. New flagship iPhones used to start at $649, now they’re $999. Now you can argue the XS is $350 better than 6 was, that’s obviously subjective but it’s still more expensive. Take the new Mac mini. Starts at $799. The previous entry point was $499. Again, one can argue that the new mini is way better and deserves the $300 price increase but the bottom line is you used to be able to get into the Mac ecosystem for $499 and now the cheapest entry point is $799. The previous entry point to iPhone was the $399 SE. Now the cheapest entry point is the $499 7. And the cheapest iPad used to be $259; now it’s $329. In the past you could get an Apple TV for $99; now it’s $179. It costs more to get into the Apple ecosystem that’s just a fact.
It’s not appropriate to cast the comparison the way you have. Like saying the entry level cancer cure in 1950 was les expensive than today’s entry level cancer cure. These are different things you are comparing. I use an extreme example to illustrate my point.
As for being blind, I could accuse those who aren’t willing to acknowledge that Apple could certainly juice units sales year after year by simply designing and developing iPhone models spanning lower price tiers, as other vendors have done. How popular would be a 6” OLED iPhone priced at $400? Pretty popular, but Apple would make no margins on such a model. So it’s not that Apple is reacting to slower/flat unit sales. It’s quite the opposite; Apple has deliberately decided to go farther up market in capabilities, performance, etc, and at significantly higher prices. Slower/flattening unit sales is a result of that strategy, not the reason for the strategy. You see, those who aren’t blind can see that it’s acually the opposite of your characterization.
I don’t agree, or at least don’t agree that it can only be one or the other. I highly doubt that Apple would intentionally try to slow unit growth. Going “up market” allows Apple to still post record financials even when sales have flatlined. But for how long? How long can they keep increasing prices to offset flat to declining sales?
Again, missing the point. Of course Apple hasn’t intentionally slowed sales. The company has intentionally continued to outpace competitors in technology, performance, etc, and is charging prices appropriate to those accomplishments. Knowing that that might flatten unit volumes is different than intending for it to do so.
Outside of their A-series chips where is Apple outpacing the competition? iOS vs Android is subjective but hardware wise most of the competition is right up there with Apple. And no one would claim Apple is top of the pack when it comes to ML/AI.
Other than that did you enjoy the show Mrs Lincoln?
The A-series is enough of a lead. Then there was Touch ID, Face ID, security, speed of iOS upgrades, etc. iOS vs Android adoption rates isn’t subjective but a function of engineering design and execution. Whether the latest Android might have software parity with the latest iOS is immaterial when the vast majority of iOS devices gets them while the vast majority of Android devices don’t.
All the major Android players have devices with fingerprint authentication. And how many people really care about speed of software upgrades? Especially when most Google apps are updated via the play store? Look I prefer the Apple ecosystem but I don’t think it’s really outpacing the competition except with silicon.
I dunno what you do on the Mac that really really impacts what you do on the iPhone. Backups? Media management? Still should be fine on Windows 10.
My concern was synchronization. I see now that's not an issue though. I was just looking at the Microsoft Surface laptop out of curiosity, and saw that Windows 10 syncs with iPhone via iCloud the same way my Mac does -- contacts, music library, calendar, etc. -- so that's one obstacle overcome.
I take your points about the advantages of even an older iPhone over a new Android. If nothing else, staying with iPhones would at least allow us to retain old habits and not require learning a new OS.
[...] it is false to say that Apple is priced too high for the average individual in 2018. Yes, it's priced higher than Dell or Huawei but the TCO is often lower depending on the useful life expectancy of the devices.
Three years is the age at which the processing speed apps expect to see is enough greater than my old iPhone can provide that I'm no longer satisfied with its performance. What's the useful life of a decent non-Apple phone these days? Unless it's much less than three years it's pretty much a wash for me.
I just compared a Xs Max 512GB $1449 to a Note 9 512GB $1249, Apple’s premium is 16%. For that you get premium material (all glass, stainless steel), superior security, processor, screen among others. Noting that Samsung supply themselves with the display so it costs them less. Why doesn’t Samsung get some of this criticism?
Because Samsung is raising their prices piggybacking on Apple. It still cold comfort to people who don’t care that much for those premium materials at those prices. Some people are on tight budgets. It’s Apple’s prerogative to move upmarket, but not everyone wants BMWs and Mercedeses, even if they could afford them. Then, there’s the perception issue too. If people feel like they get ripped off, even if they’re not, you’ve got a problem. At the end of the day, this is grumbling while some people realize that going forward, if they want the latest Apple tech, they either have to borrow to buy it, or buy used or refurbished, and hold on longer to it. So Apple is just dropping the “affordable” from “affordable luxury”.
You can get a top end iPhone and pay it off over 24 months with zero interest. Or you can get last year’s model for half the price and do the same thing. Now figure how many cups of coffee you could make at home instead of buying at a coffee shop per month to afford one. I’ll wait.
The phone still costs the same even if you spread it over 2 years with no interest (I was starting from the assumption that all phones are sold on 24 month interest free "contract"). This makes it easier for some people, but still costs the same. And for last year’s model, not sure where you get it for 1/2 off, except maybe carrier specials with strings attached. But this just proves my point: Apple’s tech is becoming a thing of luxury for people who don’t look at money, and makes regular people need to jump through all kind of hoops How many people reading this can just go to an Apple store and buy a laptop at the price they ask for? I would guess less and less people do that, instead looking for deals. And I was not only talking about iPhone, but everything they sell. I bought my laptop, refurbished with a Barclay card with introductory interest and paid it off early. This is the new Apple reality. And thanks for waiting: I make my coffee at home,and only occasionally splurge on outside coffee. Should I stop buying coffee beans for stretches of time so I can afford a new iPhone X? Is this the marketing message you want Apple to use going forward: which foods will you give up, to own Apple stuff?
No, I was merely pointing out that any of these things are affordable to nearly everyone with a job and some basic financing. You can buy older models of the iPhone for a few hundred dollars if you’re constrained. Same with Macs. This isn’t any different than when I bought a beige G3 tower and display with a student loan back in the day. It’s not rocket science. I don’t see a lot of emaciated corpses in the street clutching iPhones or Macs so I think people are figuring it out just fine.
“Wah Apple is expensive” is probably the oldest, most tired trope ever.
You can get a top end iPhone and pay it off over 24 months with zero interest
I don't see that option. Is that only in the United States?
I don’t know, I bought mine through T-Mobile. All carriers here have a tradein program too, as does Apple. Or get a credit card with zero interest for the first year. Apple does financing. Adorama does financing. Do you not have any of these options where you live?
You can get a top end iPhone and pay it off over 24 months with zero interest
I don't see that option. Is that only in the United States?
I don’t know, I bought mine through T-Mobile. All carriers here have a tradein program too, as does Apple. Or get a credit card with zero interest for the first year. Apple does financing. Adorama does financing. Do you not have any of these options where you live?
If Canadian carriers offer that, they're keeping it a closely guarded secret! Mine definitely doesn't.
I can't find any reference to spreading out the cost of an iPhone on Apple's Canadian web site. The only mention of financing is leasing for schools and businesses.
As for your parting quip, of course I can find a way to pay for an iPhone. I only asked because I got the impression you were referring to some specific program being offered by Apple.
You can get a top end iPhone and pay it off over 24 months with zero interest
I don't see that option. Is that only in the United States?
I don’t know, I bought mine through T-Mobile. All carriers here have a tradein program too, as does Apple. Or get a credit card with zero interest for the first year. Apple does financing. Adorama does financing. Do you not have any of these options where you live?
If Canadian carriers offer that, they're keeping it a closely guarded secret! Mine definitely doesn't.
I can't find any reference to spreading out the cost of an iPhone on Apple's Canadian web site. The only mention of financing is leasing for schools and businesses.
As for your parting quip, of course I can find a way to pay for an iPhone. I only asked because I got the impression you were referring to some specific program being offered by Apple.
Just went on Telus.com and added an iPhone XR and voice/data plan with only $100 due today and $125/mo payments for a 24 month plan. Took me 20 seconds to get there. Not sure who your carrier is but Telus isn't good at keeping theirs secret.
Apple's own iPhone Upgrade Program is available in the US, UK, and China right now apparently.
Just went on Telus.com and added an iPhone XR and voice/data plan with only $100 due today and $125/mo payments for a 24 month plan. Took me 20 seconds to get there. Not sure who your carrier is but Telus isn't good at keeping theirs secret.
Yeah, that's certainly an option for spreading out the cost of the iPhone, but it winds up costing more in the long run. If you read the fine print, phone financing is only available with "select plans." If you take the amount you pay for those plans over 24 months and deduct the price of the phone, it works out to more than an equivalent Bring-Your-Own-Device plan over the same term. In our case, the difference was about $600.
What I'd like is a way to pay Apple monthly for just the phone, exclusive of carrier service. For some reason I thought that's what you were referring to, though I'm not really sure why, since you didn't say that. Wishful thinking, I guess. Also (see above) stupid as a fish.
Just went on Telus.com and added an iPhone XR and voice/data plan with only $100 due today and $125/mo payments for a 24 month plan. Took me 20 seconds to get there. Not sure who your carrier is but Telus isn't good at keeping theirs secret.
Yeah, that's certainly an option for spreading out the cost of the iPhone, but it winds up costing more in the long run. If you read the fine print, phone financing is only available with "select plans." If you take the amount you pay for those plans over 24 months and deduct the price of the phone, it works out to more than an equivalent Bring-Your-Own-Device plan over the same term. In our case, the difference was about $600.
What I'd like is a way to pay Apple monthly for just the phone, exclusive of carrier service. For some reason I thought that's what you were referring to, though I'm not really sure why, since you didn't say that. Wishful thinking, I guess. Also (see above) stupid as a fish.
Apple's own iPhone Upgrade Program is available in the US, UK, and China right now apparently.
Maybe there's hope it will come to Canada then! I'd like to get on that particular bandwagon.
Apple’s program isn’t a particularly good deal either except that you can trade up every year. That program is financed by a bank in the US, not Apple directly. I bought my X outright from T-Mobile by paying something like $430 down and the rest in 30/mo payments on top of my plan with zero interest. My only point is most people can find a way to purchase an iPhone without giving up meals or whatever that other commenter was asserting.
fastasleep said: [...] I bought my X outright from T-Mobile by paying something like $430 down and the rest in 30/mo payments on top of my plan with zero interest.
Nice to see T-Mobile is taking a sensible approach. One discount carrier in Canada is splitting out the cost of the phone from the plan, but the Big Three majors STILL haven't completely shaken off the old 1990s notion of intertwining the cost of the phone with the plan. It's getting better, but it's still harder than it should be to accomplish what essentially amounts to financing a phone. I suppose there isn't much incentive for them to change, given how it results in higher revenues.
fastasleep said: [...] My only point is most people can find a way to purchase an iPhone without giving up meals or whatever that other commenter was asserting.
I think the other poster was just having a bit of fun with the old theme that one can pay for an iPhone by giving up one Starbucks a day. Or maybe it was the price of an iPhone can provide one coffee each day for a starving rhino in Africa? Either way, your point is taken. It's good to know that I can afford an iPhone without having to give up either caffeine or my dream of someday once again seeing herds of majestic rhinos grazing the plains of that big undeveloped area off the freeway next to the Ikea.
Is this report talking about gross margins or profit margins? Do you have a comparison of average selling prices over time?
Meaningless to to this discussion. When Dodge started selling the 12-cylinder Viper it would have had a positive effect on ASPs. But it offered a lot more power and sportiness. Apples latest iPhones offer a lot more performance and capabilities versus previous generations. You’d expect ASPs to climb. Gross margins is where the comparison should lay, and this article does a good job pointing out how they have not significantly moved during Cook’s tenure.
The 2010 MBA had more performance and capabilities than the 2008 model but it was cheaper. Same with the $329 iPad compared to the original. Anyone who doesn’t see that Apple is offsetting slower/flat unit sales growth with price increases is blind. New flagship iPhones used to start at $649, now they’re $999. Now you can argue the XS is $350 better than 6 was, that’s obviously subjective but it’s still more expensive. Take the new Mac mini. Starts at $799. The previous entry point was $499. Again, one can argue that the new mini is way better and deserves the $300 price increase but the bottom line is you used to be able to get into the Mac ecosystem for $499 and now the cheapest entry point is $799. The previous entry point to iPhone was the $399 SE. Now the cheapest entry point is the $499 7. And the cheapest iPad used to be $259; now it’s $329. In the past you could get an Apple TV for $99; now it’s $179. It costs more to get into the Apple ecosystem that’s just a fact.
It’s not appropriate to cast the comparison the way you have. Like saying the entry level cancer cure in 1950 was les expensive than today’s entry level cancer cure. These are different things you are comparing. I use an extreme example to illustrate my point.
As for being blind, I could accuse those who aren’t willing to acknowledge that Apple could certainly juice units sales year after year by simply designing and developing iPhone models spanning lower price tiers, as other vendors have done. How popular would be a 6” OLED iPhone priced at $400? Pretty popular, but Apple would make no margins on such a model. So it’s not that Apple is reacting to slower/flat unit sales. It’s quite the opposite; Apple has deliberately decided to go farther up market in capabilities, performance, etc, and at significantly higher prices. Slower/flattening unit sales is a result of that strategy, not the reason for the strategy. You see, those who aren’t blind can see that it’s acually the opposite of your characterization.
I don’t agree, or at least don’t agree that it can only be one or the other. I highly doubt that Apple would intentionally try to slow unit growth. Going “up market” allows Apple to still post record financials even when sales have flatlined. But for how long? How long can they keep increasing prices to offset flat to declining sales?
Again, missing the point. Of course Apple hasn’t intentionally slowed sales. The company has intentionally continued to outpace competitors in technology, performance, etc, and is charging prices appropriate to those accomplishments. Knowing that that might flatten unit volumes is different than intending for it to do so.
Outside of their A-series chips where is Apple outpacing the competition? iOS vs Android is subjective but hardware wise most of the competition is right up there with Apple. And no one would claim Apple is top of the pack when it comes to ML/AI.
FaceID, ecosystem, forward compatibility (most iProducts take four or more OS updates), screen color accuracy, camera capabilities, the list goes on.
AppleCare profits are pretty high, very few people actually use this extended warranty. I know better than to buy an extended warranty. I personally never had to use them for Apple products, my iMac is 6 yrs old next month and never been in the shop. My kid on the other hand has used their apple care on their phones. I have gotten Apple care from time to time when I think the tech leap was enough to think Apple may have not gotten it 100% right, also knowing that Apple does give people who had Apple care less hassle when you do have a problem.
True, I would like to avail AppleCare if they can grant my old 3GS phone one. AppleCare is useless because the gadget is still new.
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But maybe the things that have kept us on board really are luxuries we can live without. There are lots of things I'd like to have but can't justify at my income level. Maybe Apple product is one of those things.
Perhaps true, but only with some pretty significant compromises. When it comes to portable Macs, screen size is the big one. At lower prices there's no option for anything but a tiny screen. Storage is another. The only choices are "inadequate" or "expensive." I haven't looked into it, but I'm confident if I look outside Apple I can find something with a larger screen that trades some storage speed for increased capacity at any given price point. I can't do that with Apple. That doesn't mean that Apple is "doing it wrong" but it may mean that Apple isn't the best supplier for our particular needs.
I would use the analogy of the difference between the menu from mid-grade chain restaurant to that of a higher end restaurant.
Lots more choices for less money but, presumably you have a nicer dining experience at they high end restaurant.
Apples product menu is like the menu of a high end restaurant. Limited, pricey but presumably worthwhile for many...even us middle class folks that watch our budget.
In your case case you might decide iPhones are worth it but not MBPs...just like i don’t eat at a high end restaurant every day.
After that it's a question of what apps you use for photo and video management. If I didn't use FCPX I wouldn't need a Mac. I prefer one but I wouldn't need one.
The two ecosystems are complementary but not directly related for me. YMMV but I just prefer Apple vs Amazon for where I buy apps, games, songs and movies and I have a sufficiently large collection that the iOS ecosystem is sticky on its own.
I'm also still using a 6S whereas all of the Android phones purchased for my kids are long dead and even if still alive would be stuck in a 2 year old OS. While iOS 11 was a little sluggish on my old 6, iOS 12 works well enough that one of my kids has it.
I dunno what you do on the Mac that really really impacts what you do on the iPhone. Backups? Media management? Still should be fine on Windows 10.
I'd rather have a 1-2 year old iPhone than a mid-grade Android having owned both. The TCO just ended up being lower on the iPhones because if you get one of those mid-tier flagship killers from Huawei (I preferred ZTE) you find that screen replacement is more hit and miss in terms of availability than with the far more popular Samsung or iPhone. Top tier android flagships aren't that much cheaper than the iPhone either. Plus, the advantages of the A-series chips and iOS efficiency means that there is often processor parity between a 1 year old iPhone and a current Android flagship. Certainly you get longer iOS updates than you get with most Android brands.
What is best for you may vary from the norm but it is false to say that Apple is priced too high for the average individual in 2018. Yes, it's priced higher than Dell or Huawei but the TCO is often lower depending on the useful life expectancy of the devices.
Finally, my phone is the device I most interact with. If I'm going to splurge anywhere, its going to be on the device I use the most.
I take your points about the advantages of even an older iPhone over a new Android. If nothing else, staying with iPhones would at least allow us to retain old habits and not require learning a new OS.
Three years is the age at which the processing speed apps expect to see is enough greater than my old iPhone can provide that I'm no longer satisfied with its performance. What's the useful life of a decent non-Apple phone these days? Unless it's much less than three years it's pretty much a wash for me.
“Wah Apple is expensive” is probably the oldest, most tired trope ever.
I don’t know, I bought mine through T-Mobile. All carriers here have a tradein program too, as does Apple. Or get a credit card with zero interest for the first year. Apple does financing. Adorama does financing. Do you not have any of these options where you live?
I can't find any reference to spreading out the cost of an iPhone on Apple's Canadian web site. The only mention of financing is leasing for schools and businesses.
As for your parting quip, of course I can find a way to pay for an iPhone. I only asked because I got the impression you were referring to some specific program being offered by Apple.
From a cursory DuckDuckGo search, first hit I checked was Best Buy Canada offering financing on unlocked iPhones
https://mobilesyrup.com/2017/11/02/best-buy-canada-smartphone-financing-canada/
Just went on Telus.com and added an iPhone XR and voice/data plan with only $100 due today and $125/mo payments for a 24 month plan. Took me 20 seconds to get there. Not sure who your carrier is but Telus isn't good at keeping theirs secret.
Apple's own iPhone Upgrade Program is available in the US, UK, and China right now apparently.
Yeah, that's certainly an option for spreading out the cost of the iPhone, but it winds up costing more in the long run. If you read the fine print, phone financing is only available with "select plans." If you take the amount you pay for those plans over 24 months and deduct the price of the phone, it works out to more than an equivalent Bring-Your-Own-Device plan over the same term. In our case, the difference was about $600.
What I'd like is a way to pay Apple monthly for just the phone, exclusive of carrier service. For some reason I thought that's what you were referring to, though I'm not really sure why, since you didn't say that. Wishful thinking, I guess. Also (see above) stupid as a fish.
I think the other poster was just having a bit of fun with the old theme that one can pay for an iPhone by giving up one Starbucks a day. Or maybe it was the price of an iPhone can provide one coffee each day for a starving rhino in Africa? Either way, your point is taken. It's good to know that I can afford an iPhone without having to give up either caffeine or my dream of someday once again seeing herds of majestic rhinos grazing the plains of that big undeveloped area off the freeway next to the Ikea.