Microsoft surpasses Apple, retakes crown of world's most valuable company

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 100
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 1,761member

    chasm said:
    Conclusion: this downturn in AAPL is driven 100 percent by unproven speculation, which is a sure sign of market manipulation. Microsoft's sudden rise in its stock price is also seemingly driven by speculation and market manipulation. Expect big corrections in January when MS again reports lacklustre results (after its execs cash out on this windfall) and Apple reports exactly what it has promised it will: a record-breaking fiscal Q1.

    Just hope that the general US economy doesn't crash in the meantime ...
    Exactly. Unfortunately, yes, the whole 'investment' game falls apart if the $dollar does. But, the US has invested a lot of money, military power, government overthrowing, propaganda, etc. to ensure that doesn't happen. But, the shell game can only go on so long.
  • Reply 22 of 100
    mubailimubaili Posts: 381member
    this is a perfect time to buy Apple stock if you are a long term investor. The more Apple’s stock falls the better investment. And Apple and Microsoft are not competing in the same area (except surface vs iPad), so good for both companies. For Apple to win, Apple needs to produce insanely great products, which last time I check Apple is doing exactly that. I will give a sime example, one day I was on my iMac, and I was looking at an email on my iPhone, and wanted to copy something from my iPhone to search on the iMac. So I select on the iPhone and copy, and then go to the iMac and do a paste. I then just realized how crazy that is. I am stunned that it even works at all. From a machine to another machine instantaneously. Also I am using a 2018 iPad 6th Gen bought on Black Friday for $249, a steal. Wall Street always has this deep uneasy about Apple. Well, there is not much Apple can do other than creating more great products. I will keep buying their products, and if God willing, let the stock fall a bit more so I can buy more Apple stocks as well as their own buy back.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 100
    What a complete joke of valuation.  Wall Street effectively thinks MSFT earning are worth 3x that of AAPL.  

    Wall Strret is a den of thieves.
    magman1979watto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 100
    pjs_socal said:
    Microsoft has a P/E ratio of 45 and Apple has a P/E ratio of 15.

    Apple and Microsoft have similar margins and Apple had better growth in 2018. Apple makes 2.5x more revenue and 3x more profits. So, why are Microsoft shares valued at 3x Apple’s? Because investors are morons.

    In reality Microsoft is worth ⅓ the value of Apple.
    Well if Microsoft is shifting its business model to enterprise clients and away from consumers it probably has a more stable income stream than Apple which has to deal with fickle consumers and so the NPV discount rate for Apple could be higher than that for Microsoft. Also even though the last reported fiscal annual Net Income is significantly different between the two companies with $59.5B for Apple and $16.5B for Microsoft, the Net Cash Flow reported by the two companies is a lot closer with $5.6B for Apple and $4.2B for Microsoft. https://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/aapl/financials?query=cash-flow https://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/msft/financials?query=cash-flow
  • Reply 25 of 100
    Microsoft did not surpass Apple, Apple fell behind. 
    elijahgdedgecko
  • Reply 26 of 100
    Microsoft is very lucky that Amazon relies on their AWS profits to subsidize everything else—if Amazon started pricing AWS with the same margins as their retail business, a big chunk of Microsoft’s newfound profits would be up in smoke. But honestly, that’s probably no less likely than the idea of iPhone sales suffering a significant slump. Both seem highly unlikely, but Wall Street seems to have a lot more confidence that Amazon will never be as aggressive with their AWS pricing as they are in other areas. If I had to guess, I’d say that’s much more likely than, say, iPhone sales dropping by 2/3–which, as another commenter reasonably asserted, is what would have to happen for this valuation to make any sense. 
    badmonkwatto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 100
    Microsoft is Office. 

    Then Windows. 

    Azure isnt a monymaker. It’s a foot in the door. 

    Microsofts hardware business is nothing. 

    Basically, today’s valuation of MS is a charade. 

    Good imitation of success, but no actual success. 

    Meanwhilr Apple has a very healthy and stable PC business. 

    Then it has a psychotically great and stable phone business. 

    Then it has has an amazing wearables business. 

    Then it has an pustsnding services business. 

    It also boasys a second second to none retail business where it not only profits off its own products, but third party offerings as well. 

    The iBooks, iTunes, and App Store business are the stuff Microsoft can only dream of. 

    The idea that MS is even mentioned in the same sentence as Apple is laughable. 

    If office tanks, all of Microsoft goes with it. Windows as well. 

    Apple would be fine for a very long time if any number of its businesses went through through a severe famine - and that’s not due to its savings. THats due to cash flow. Apples business is heavily diversified and healthy on all points. Not the same for ms, which bleeds money on pet projects to project the illusion of diversification and relevance. 

    Its hilarious to see how the the stock market is manipulated. One moment, it makes sense and logic rules the day. The next, it’s 2+2=-22. 

    I give this s week before people realize there is no actual money in this error. 

    Its similar to google when people were giving google free money for no reason. It was a terrible investment. A company good at selling online ads. Then blew money like toilet paper on everything else. They would have tanked had an ignorant public not been so naive as to throw money at them. 

    Tjrn you hsve apple. They could go private and still hand the free money people a big blow. But they’re public and it’s like people don’t know what’s actually available to them. 

    In reality, Apple is worth over twice what it was a couple months ago. 

    No no other company has ever created and sustained their type of growth with their type of reliability and trust factor with how they handle business - never going in blind. Never taking stupid risks, but calculated ones. And having it pay off. 

    Lets see see how this plays out by next Friday. 

    Going to be a a fun ride. 


    "Azure isnt a monymaker."

    Wrong.  Azure & Office 365 are MS' fastest growing businesses.
    LOL

    Office was my point. It’s MS’ backbone. Break it and they die. 

    Asure isnt a moneymaker. It’s growing “for them” by userbase. Yay. 

    Azure is lame. As is the rest of Microsoft’s portfolio not named Office. They’re actually good at that. 

    Outside of people giving them money, Office is really Microsoft’s business. Once that cracks, they’re in worse trouble than if iPhone does for Apple. 
    magman1979watto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 100
    claire1claire1 Posts: 483unconfirmed, member
    davgreg said:
    Microsoft under Nadella has followed the Jobs pattern of picking a couple of things to do and then skating to where the puck is. Apple under Cook has followed the Ballmer pattern of imitate and iterate instead of innovate. Nadella taught the elephant to tap dance and Cook took a once lean Apple and created a top heavy organization that seems unable to do anything other than design and market cell phones.

    Apple is a one trick pony.
    Sarcasm?
    magman1979watto_cobra
  • Reply 29 of 100
    It is hot in here with the molten lava level of hot takes in this thread... 
    edited December 1 watto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 100
    davgreg said:
    Microsoft under Nadella has followed the Jobs pattern of picking a couple of things to do and then skating to where the puck is. Apple under Cook has followed the Ballmer pattern of imitate and iterate instead of innovate. Nadella taught the elephant to tap dance and Cook took a once lean Apple and created a top heavy organization that seems unable to do anything other than design and market cell phones.

    Apple is a one trick pony.
    You don’t even quote SJ correctly. And writing this unsubstantiated nonsense with a stuck bold key doesn’t make this comment any better. 
    Rayz2016jdb8167netmagemacxpresspalominemagman1979roundaboutnowwatto_cobra
  • Reply 31 of 100
    viclauyyc said:
    Microsoft is Office. 

    Then Windows. 

    Azure isnt a monymaker. It’s a foot in the door. 

    Microsofts hardware business is nothing. 

    Basically, today’s valuation of MS is a charade. 

    Good imitation of success, but no actual success. 

    Meanwhilr Apple has a very healthy and stable PC business. 

    Then it has a psychotically great and stable phone business. 

    Then it has has an amazing wearables business. 

    Then it has an pustsnding services business. 

    It also boasys a second second to none retail business where it not only profits off its own products, but third party offerings as well. 

    The iBooks, iTunes, and App Store business are the stuff Microsoft can only dream of. 

    The idea that MS is even mentioned in the same sentence as Apple is laughable. 

    If office tanks, all of Microsoft goes with it. Windows as well. 

    Apple would be fine for a very long time if any number of its businesses went through through a severe famine - and that’s not due to its savings. THats due to cash flow. Apples business is heavily diversified and healthy on all points. Not the same for ms, which bleeds money on pet projects to project the illusion of diversification and relevance. 

    Its hilarious to see how the the stock market is manipulated. One moment, it makes sense and logic rules the day. The next, it’s 2+2=-22. 

    I give this s week before people realize there is no actual money in this error. 

    Its similar to google when people were giving google free money for no reason. It was a terrible investment. A company good at selling online ads. Then blew money like toilet paper on everything else. They would have tanked had an ignorant public not been so naive as to throw money at them. 

    Tjrn you hsve apple. They could go private and still hand the free money people a big blow. But they’re public and it’s like people don’t know what’s actually available to them. 

    In reality, Apple is worth over twice what it was a couple months ago. 

    No no other company has ever created and sustained their type of growth with their type of reliability and trust factor with how they handle business - never going in blind. Never taking stupid risks, but calculated ones. And having it pay off. 

    Lets see see how this plays out by next Friday. 

    Going to be a a fun ride. 


    Can Apple buy itself and go private?

    apple sure don’t need outside investors to fund ny project like many company. 
    Interesting point. They are essentially doing that by taking share off the market via buy backs. At this rate they are buying back 100 billion a quarter. I’m not sure how that works but at some point you would think the balance would shift back. 



    watto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 100
    Fair analysis, but I don't think Microsoft "beat" Apple more than Apple "dropped" below Microsoft's valuation due to investor speculation and subsequent media coverage. Microsoft has remained rather steady over the past few months in terms of strategy, share price and resulting the Market Cap. So in my view, the headline is a bit misleading, but hail to the new Tech King all the same. Microsoft has done a tremendous job at remaining relevant and I'm quite a fan of their Office 365 Cloud offerings...
  • Reply 33 of 100
    bitmodbitmod Posts: 190member
    It will be 2 entire years before the iMac sees an update... 2 years!!! 
    Professionals are leaving in the platform in droves - for Microsoft of all things! 

    Id say there are some big concerns that need to be addressed. 
    elijahgmike54
  • Reply 34 of 100
    marsorry said:
    Fair analysis, but I don't think Microsoft "beat" Apple more than Apple "dropped" below Microsoft's valuation due to investor speculation and subsequent media coverage. Microsoft has remained rather steady over the past few months in terms of strategy, share price and resulting the Market Cap. So in my view, the headline is a bit misleading, but hail to the new Tech King all the same. Microsoft has done a tremendous job at remaining relevant and I'm quite a fan of their Office 365 Cloud offerings...
    My work lets me use my Office 365 account on my iPad and iPhone. OneNote is great on iPad Pro and they’ve really done a great job on the whole Office suite.
  • Reply 35 of 100
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,461member
    davgreg said:
    Microsoft under Nadella has followed the Jobs pattern of picking a couple of things to do and then skating to where the puck is. Apple under Cook has followed the Ballmer pattern of imitate and iterate instead of innovate. Nadella taught the elephant to tap dance and Cook took a once lean Apple and created a top heavy organization that seems unable to do anything other than design and market cell phones.

    Apple is a one trick pony.

    An argument in bold is an argument lost.

    -- Old Chinese proverb.
    AppleExposedwonkothesanenetmagemagman1979williamlondonroundaboutnowmuthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
  • Reply 36 of 100
    viclauyyc said:
    Microsoft is Office. 

    Then Windows. 

    Azure isnt a monymaker. It’s a foot in the door. 

    Microsofts hardware business is nothing. 

    Basically, today’s valuation of MS is a charade. 

    Good imitation of success, but no actual success. 

    Meanwhilr Apple has a very healthy and stable PC business. 

    Then it has a psychotically great and stable phone business. 

    Then it has has an amazing wearables business. 

    Then it has an pustsnding services business. 

    It also boasys a second second to none retail business where it not only profits off its own products, but third party offerings as well. 

    The iBooks, iTunes, and App Store business are the stuff Microsoft can only dream of. 

    The idea that MS is even mentioned in the same sentence as Apple is laughable. 

    If office tanks, all of Microsoft goes with it. Windows as well. 

    Apple would be fine for a very long time if any number of its businesses went through through a severe famine - and that’s not due to its savings. THats due to cash flow. Apples business is heavily diversified and healthy on all points. Not the same for ms, which bleeds money on pet projects to project the illusion of diversification and relevance. 

    Its hilarious to see how the the stock market is manipulated. One moment, it makes sense and logic rules the day. The next, it’s 2+2=-22. 

    I give this s week before people realize there is no actual money in this error. 

    Its similar to google when people were giving google free money for no reason. It was a terrible investment. A company good at selling online ads. Then blew money like toilet paper on everything else. They would have tanked had an ignorant public not been so naive as to throw money at them. 

    Tjrn you hsve apple. They could go private and still hand the free money people a big blow. But they’re public and it’s like people don’t know what’s actually available to them. 

    In reality, Apple is worth over twice what it was a couple months ago. 

    No no other company has ever created and sustained their type of growth with their type of reliability and trust factor with how they handle business - never going in blind. Never taking stupid risks, but calculated ones. And having it pay off. 

    Lets see see how this plays out by next Friday. 

    Going to be a a fun ride. 


    Can Apple buy itself and go private?

    apple sure don’t need outside investors to fund ny project like many company. 
    No. It can't buy itself and in doing so make itself private.

    In theory it could buy up enough shares such that it had few enough shareholders left, and then it could go private. But those remaining shareholders would still own the company. That isn't going to happen anytime soon.

    It could also be bought by a group of investors who would take it private. But that would require pulling together an enormous amount of capital or financing. That is extremely unlikely to happen anytime soon.
  • Reply 37 of 100
    genovelle said:
    viclauyyc said:
    Microsoft is Office. 

    Then Windows. 

    Azure isnt a monymaker. It’s a foot in the door. 

    Microsofts hardware business is nothing. 

    Basically, today’s valuation of MS is a charade. 

    Good imitation of success, but no actual success. 

    Meanwhilr Apple has a very healthy and stable PC business. 

    Then it has a psychotically great and stable phone business. 

    Then it has has an amazing wearables business. 

    Then it has an pustsnding services business. 

    It also boasys a second second to none retail business where it not only profits off its own products, but third party offerings as well. 

    The iBooks, iTunes, and App Store business are the stuff Microsoft can only dream of. 

    The idea that MS is even mentioned in the same sentence as Apple is laughable. 

    If office tanks, all of Microsoft goes with it. Windows as well. 

    Apple would be fine for a very long time if any number of its businesses went through through a severe famine - and that’s not due to its savings. THats due to cash flow. Apples business is heavily diversified and healthy on all points. Not the same for ms, which bleeds money on pet projects to project the illusion of diversification and relevance. 

    Its hilarious to see how the the stock market is manipulated. One moment, it makes sense and logic rules the day. The next, it’s 2+2=-22. 

    I give this s week before people realize there is no actual money in this error. 

    Its similar to google when people were giving google free money for no reason. It was a terrible investment. A company good at selling online ads. Then blew money like toilet paper on everything else. They would have tanked had an ignorant public not been so naive as to throw money at them. 

    Tjrn you hsve apple. They could go private and still hand the free money people a big blow. But they’re public and it’s like people don’t know what’s actually available to them. 

    In reality, Apple is worth over twice what it was a couple months ago. 

    No no other company has ever created and sustained their type of growth with their type of reliability and trust factor with how they handle business - never going in blind. Never taking stupid risks, but calculated ones. And having it pay off. 

    Lets see see how this plays out by next Friday. 

    Going to be a a fun ride. 


    Can Apple buy itself and go private?

    apple sure don’t need outside investors to fund ny project like many company. 
    Interesting point. They are essentially doing that by taking share off the market via buy backs. At this rate they are buying back 100 billion a quarter. I’m not sure how that works but at some point you would think the balance would shift back. 



    If by balance you're referring to how many shares Apple itself owns versus how many are outstanding, then that isn't how it works. Apple retires the shares that it buys back. So it isn't holding a bunch of treasury stock. When it retires shares, each outstanding share represents ownership of a larger portion of the company. So someone who holds a given amount of shares ends up owning more of the company.
  • Reply 38 of 100
    It will be interesting to see, after this quarter, how much stock Apple bought back while the share price was lower. And it will be interesting to see whether Mr. Buffett took advantage of the lower share price to buy a lot more AAPL. Or has he changed his mind somewhat about Apple's long-term prospects?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 39 of 100
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,461member

    zoetmb said:
    lkrupp said:
    pjs_socal said:
    Microsoft has a P/E ratio of 45 and Apple has a P/E ratio of 15.

    Apple and Microsoft have similar margins and Apple had better growth in 2018. Apple makes 2.5x more revenue and 3x more profits. So, why are Microsoft shares valued at 3x Apple’s? Because investors are morons.

    In reality Microsoft is worth ⅓ the value of Apple.
    Because Microsoft is diversified with recurring revenue streams which Wall Street loves. With Apple if iPhone sneezes the entire company gets a cold.
    So when did the iPhone sneeze? I must have missed that. The only thing I’ve heard are the predictions of analysts based on supply chain reports which Tim Cook has consistently advised against using to provide meaningful data about Apple. So remind me, when did the iPhone sneeze and give the entire company a cold? In your wet dreams?
    Reality doesn't matter.  It's about perception.   The iPhone is approximately 66% of Apple's gross revenue.  And Apple announcing that they're no longer going to break out iPhone units sales is sending the message, correct or not, that they expect declines in unit sales.  Wall Street doesn't like a lack of transparency and in that regard, I don't blame them.   Combine that with the insanity of believing supplier chain complaints and that's a recipe for killing the stock and that's if the stock is not being manipulated.   

    Declines in iPhone sales wouldn't surprise me one bit.  At least in the U.S., the market is mature, phones are no longer subsidized and Apple keeps raising the prices.   Does Apple really think that their users are going to buy a new phone every two years for $1000 or more per pop?   

    On the Mac side, Apple's price hikes combined with the inability to replace the battery, memory and storage as well as the fact that so many people don't really need a computer anymore is going to continue to affect sales, but the Mac is only about 10% of Apple now anyway.   Apple probably thought they could replace Mac sales with iPad sales, but that's only about 8% of Apple.    While I realize that Apple has never wanted to be the low-end, low-margin provider, I think the high salaries paid to Apple managers and executives has completely warped their perception of what most people are willing and able to spend, especially for a machine that can't be upgraded after purchase.    A 15" MBP now starts at $2400 and tops out at $6700.   That's ludicrous.   The MBA starts at $1000 at tops out at $2600.   The Mini tops out at $4300.   $5K for the 27" 5K Retina iMac (topping out at $13,200)?   IMO, this is either desperation to keep revenue high or unbelievable arrogance.     



    There is of course, the third option: you have the details wrong.

    Let's begin with the most obvious stumble (the real drop off the cliff is that Apple actually sells phones at a range of prices, but that's so obvious it doesn't really need covering):

    Declines in iPhone sales wouldn't surprise me one bit.  At least in the U.S., the market is mature, phones are no longer subsidized and Apple keeps raising the prices.   Does Apple really think that their users are going to buy a new phone every two years for $1000 or more per pop? 

    Er, no. Apple doesn't expect that because no one has ever done that.  What happens is that on each new release, Apple gets picks up customers from other platforms, but also gets a massive boost from people with folk with much iPhones much older than two years. I have just replaced my iPhone 6s, which means I missed out on the 7 and the X. The assumption that Apple thinks folk update their phone every two years is laughable. Which brings me to your other point:

    Yes, the price. And here again, the problem is narrow thinking. Saying that no one would buy a $1000 phone is a bit like saying no one would buy a house for $300,000 or a $30,000 car. Clearly they will, because I've seen houses and cars that cost several times that amount. So how do they do it?
    Well, I'm going to clue you in, but you have to keep it under your hat because I'm thinking of taking out a patent on the whole idea.

    Ready?

    This is going to amaze you, but people don't hand over the whole amount for houses and cars all at once. They pay it off in chunks. Buying a $1000 iPhone (which, by the way, is not the most expensive smart phone on the market) is best done on the Apple payment scheme: they throw in AppleCare and you can change the phone after a year if you want. Oh, and it's interest free, so if you're paying the whole cost up front then you're doing it wrong. 

    But that's kind of an aside. The point is that folk have been saying Apple gear is insanely expensive for as long as I can remember, and for as long as I can remember, they've been shifting it. So that leads me to believe that Apple understands basic economic theory better than anyone here who comments on it. All this braying about  Apple pricing always misses one vital piece of information: Apple's demand curve.

    This little bit of paper sitting on Tim Cook's desk will show you is that the demand for Apple kit is comparatively inelastic: movements in price have fairly negligible effects on demand.  If they increase the price, the sales will not drop significantly.

    But far more importantly, dropping the price will not actually produce a significant increase in sales, and this increase may not be enough to cover the price drop.

    So why is Apple's demand inelastic? Simply because the combination of hardware and software is perceived as unique in a very crowded market. 



    edited December 1 netmageelijahgpalominemagman1979watto_cobra
  • Reply 40 of 100
    AppleExposedAppleExposed Posts: 52unconfirmed, member
    Just a quick question,

    With Apples royalties/licenses from iKnockoff manufacturers, how much would Apple make from the phone industry if it sold 0 iPhones a year? What percentage of profit do you think Apple would take?
    watto_cobra
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