Steve Jobs wanted ultra-optimized US manufacturing, Apple vets say

2»

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 39
    Anyone who knows Apple's history know that they failed miserably manufacturing in the US. Same for Jobs when he was founder and CEO at NeXT. One of the smartest things he did was to hire Tim Cook to run Apple Operations. It allowed Apple to focus it's energies on Products and Marketing while leveraging global manufacturing and supply chains to fulfill demand. One can argue the efficacy of Apple's Global Operations, but would be hard pressed to consider them anything but a rousing success...
  • Reply 22 of 39
    ksecksec Posts: 1,569member
    Steve's vision for Manufacturing was WAY ahead of its time. He wanted a full automated and flexible machine to build his machine. Much like how cars where made today. 

    But the newest Robots are still no where close to the Speed, flexibility, and adaptability of human. Foxconn wanted to replace its human worker but not working out well.
    One of the theory I have with Apple was their disassembling robots is part of the training for Manufacturing Robotics.

    For certain iPhones, such as those with Touch ID, may be it makes sense to be manufactured in US, Where they will be kept largely the same design to serve the low end market. But given how small volume those are, I am not entirely sure if it is worth the hassle.

    While I worry about Apple's Software, Hardware, Design and R&D. The only thing I don't worry at all is Supply Chain management. Tim Cook is an absolute genius in this field. 
  • Reply 23 of 39
    sirozha said:
    My town is inundated with H1B-visa Indians who have replaced 50% or more of American IT personnel. About 35% of doctors are Indian on H1B visas. They have pushed Americans out of the jobs here, and these are not manufacturing jobs. These are high-tech and medical jobs. As a result, housing prices are  through the roof. These temporary Indians are buying several houses each on interest-only loans, knowing full well that they are going to have to leave within 5-6 years and can simply abandon their houses (if the market turns down) with no consequences. Their monthly mortgage payments are significantly lower than apartment rentals because of the ARM-type loans that they take out.  In the meantime, they are collecting rents on the multiple houses that they purchased with no credit history and no permanent status here. How can a temporary worker buy a house in the US on a mortgage is beyond comprehension. We have not learned anything from the 2009 housing crash. 

    If we don't want to manufacture anything, we don't want to build anything, we don't want to work in agriculture, we don't want to study sciences, we don't want to work as engineers, we don't want to be doctors, what the hell are we good for? Are we going to be pigs for the rest of the world to raise until we get fat enough to be slaughtered? 

    We can have robotic factories built in the US and train our citizens to maintain and program robots. If we don't know how to do this, let's invite Chinese, Japanese, and Germans to help us out, pay them handsomely, and learn how to make our own crap efficiently by leveraging the latest robotic technologies for manufacturing. This could not be done three decades ago, but with the advance of technology, it is now possible. 
    👏 
  • Reply 24 of 39
    normmnormm Posts: 653member
    ksec said:
    But the newest Robots are still no where close to the Speed, flexibility, and adaptability of human. Foxconn wanted to replace its human worker but not working out well.
    Robotic assembly is the future.  Manufacturing jobs are going away everywhere.
  • Reply 25 of 39
    normm said:
    ksec said:
    But the newest Robots are still no where close to the Speed, flexibility, and adaptability of human. Foxconn wanted to replace its human worker but not working out well.
    Robotic assembly is the future.  Manufacturing jobs are going away everywhere.
    True, but a general purpose robot which can be trained in a matter of minutes and which is capable of human-level dexterity and vision is not here yet.
  • Reply 26 of 39
    mac_dog said:
    sirozha said:
    My town is inundated with H1B-visa Indians who have replaced 50% or more of American IT personnel. About 35% of doctors are Indian on H1B visas. They have pushed Americans out of the jobs here, and these are not manufacturing jobs. These are high-tech and medical jobs. As a result, housing prices are  through the roof. These temporary Indians are buying several houses each on interest-only loans, knowing full well that they are going to have to leave within 5-6 years and can simply abandon their houses (if the market turns down) with no consequences. Their monthly mortgage payments are significantly lower than apartment rentals because of the ARM-type loans that they take out.  In the meantime, they are collecting rents on the multiple houses that they purchased with no credit history and no permanent status here. How can a temporary worker buy a house in the US on a mortgage is beyond comprehension. We have not learned anything from the 2009 housing crash. 

    If we don't want to manufacture anything, we don't want to build anything, we don't want to work in agriculture, we don't want to study sciences, we don't want to work as engineers, we don't want to be doctors, what the hell are we good for? Are we going to be pigs for the rest of the world to raise until we get fat enough to be slaughtered? 

    We can have robotic factories built in the US and train our citizens to maintain and program robots. If we don't know how to do this, let's invite Chinese, Japanese, and Germans to help us out, pay them handsomely, and learn how to make our own crap efficiently by leveraging the latest robotic technologies for manufacturing. This could not be done three decades ago, but with the advance of technology, it is now possible. 
    We’re already too fat. Seriously, though. Companies hire the best. Period. We don’t even have an adequate school infrastructure. This is what happens when you have 10x the amount of money pouring into the military. You leave nothing for educating the masses. The irony about Indians is that they modeled their school system after our public system of the 60’s & 70’s. 
    Companies hire what's best for their bottom line. Meritocracy is a myth in a capitalist society  
  • Reply 27 of 39
    mac_dog said:
    sirozha said:
    My town is inundated with H1B-visa Indians who have replaced 50% or more of American IT personnel. About 35% of doctors are Indian on H1B visas. They have pushed Americans out of the jobs here, and these are not manufacturing jobs. These are high-tech and medical jobs. As a result, housing prices are  through the roof. These temporary Indians are buying several houses each on interest-only loans, knowing full well that they are going to have to leave within 5-6 years and can simply abandon their houses (if the market turns down) with no consequences. Their monthly mortgage payments are significantly lower than apartment rentals because of the ARM-type loans that they take out.  In the meantime, they are collecting rents on the multiple houses that they purchased with no credit history and no permanent status here. How can a temporary worker buy a house in the US on a mortgage is beyond comprehension. We have not learned anything from the 2009 housing crash. 

    If we don't want to manufacture anything, we don't want to build anything, we don't want to work in agriculture, we don't want to study sciences, we don't want to work as engineers, we don't want to be doctors, what the hell are we good for? Are we going to be pigs for the rest of the world to raise until we get fat enough to be slaughtered? 

    We can have robotic factories built in the US and train our citizens to maintain and program robots. If we don't know how to do this, let's invite Chinese, Japanese, and Germans to help us out, pay them handsomely, and learn how to make our own crap efficiently by leveraging the latest robotic technologies for manufacturing. This could not be done three decades ago, but with the advance of technology, it is now possible. 
    We’re already too fat. Seriously, though. Companies hire the best. Period. We don’t even have an adequate school infrastructure. This is what happens when you have 10x the amount of money pouring into the military. You leave nothing for educating the masses. The irony about Indians is that they modeled their school system after our public system of the 60’s & 70’s. 
    We are spending more on education per student than any other country in the world, and the results of our education system are one of the worst out there among developed and semi-developed countries. It's not a matter of money, it's a matter of ineffectiveness of our system. Same goes for the military. We are spending more on the military than the next several countries combined, but we have not won a single war since WWII (except for the invasion in Grenada and Panama). And even WWII we didn't win alone. It's questionable if we would have won WWII without the British and the Russians. 
    edited December 2018
  • Reply 28 of 39
    1st1st Posts: 443member
    normm said:
    ksec said:
    But the newest Robots are still no where close to the Speed, flexibility, and adaptability of human. Foxconn wanted to replace its human worker but not working out well.
    Robotic assembly is the future.  Manufacturing jobs are going away everywhere.
    the latest Tesla example proven to be opposit - "human being is under rated" as someone admit.  In order to be successfully implmented using robot in MFG to replace majority of human, you need to change the design and possibly assembly sequence - that is a tall order for Young designers who have little or no MFG experiences (including assembly sequence).  If your product engineering dwg got revision more than 6 or 7, you need human being to be flexible to tolerate the change (usually, you change one issue, it will impacted more than 3 other events, that robot may not be able to forecast). NA MFG talent is on the short supply, partly due to baby boomer retirement and partly due to lack of qualified instructor as mentor at university and MFG facility - lack of trust between older generation and younger worker due to highly competitive nature put USA in big disadvantage (some of newbie's atitude and lack of repsect to the "master of MFG" didn't help - Japanese solved that problem years ago.  it could be a culture thing... I can't see any Japanese young chaps openly claim "young chaps just more smarter" by sitting on the booster seat.  IMHO).  design for robotic assembly and MFG using robotic is a chicken and egg thing... fast product design cycle didn't help.  However, apple is better suited than others (longer new product developing cycle, especially for next gen).  Can't wait to see Apple utilize 5G and AI for inhouse automation - that could be a game change for US MFG.  At current state, human possibly still your best bet with some robotic assistance (due to in-mature design process).  
  • Reply 29 of 39
    maestro64 said:
    mac_dog said:
    sirozha said:
    My town is inundated with H1B-visa Indians who have replaced 50% or more of American IT personnel. About 35% of doctors are Indian on H1B visas. They have pushed Americans out of the jobs here, and these are not manufacturing jobs. These are high-tech and medical jobs. As a result, housing prices are  through the roof. These temporary Indians are buying several houses each on interest-only loans, knowing full well that they are going to have to leave within 5-6 years and can simply abandon their houses (if the market turns down) with no consequences. Their monthly mortgage payments are significantly lower than apartment rentals because of the ARM-type loans that they take out.  In the meantime, they are collecting rents on the multiple houses that they purchased with no credit history and no permanent status here. How can a temporary worker buy a house in the US on a mortgage is beyond comprehension. We have not learned anything from the 2009 housing crash. 

    If we don't want to manufacture anything, we don't want to build anything, we don't want to work in agriculture, we don't want to study sciences, we don't want to work as engineers, we don't want to be doctors, what the hell are we good for? Are we going to be pigs for the rest of the world to raise until we get fat enough to be slaughtered? 

    We can have robotic factories built in the US and train our citizens to maintain and program robots. If we don't know how to do this, let's invite Chinese, Japanese, and Germans to help us out, pay them handsomely, and learn how to make our own crap efficiently by leveraging the latest robotic technologies for manufacturing. This could not be done three decades ago, but with the advance of technology, it is now possible. 
    We’re already too fat. Seriously, though. Companies hire the best. Period. We don’t even have an adequate school infrastructure. This is what happens when you have 10x the amount of money pouring into the military. You leave nothing for educating the masses. The irony about Indians is that they modeled their school system after our public system of the 60’s & 70’s. 
    As person who worked for companies who hired lots of H1B, i can tell you its not about hiring the best talent, it about hiring the lowest cost. H1B do not command the same salary as their US counter parts. Many times instead of sponsoring and H1B since only so many can be sponsored each year the companies I worked for would just outsource to these foreign countries and hire lots of people locally and 25% the US wage.  Also as person who has seen lots of H1B resumes and interview a fair number of them, they are not as well educated as the US counter parts. I will give you one example since this is what I had the most experience with. I would get resumes of people who had an education in Electronics Engineering or the close equivalent, most all these people had no experience in electronic, most their experience was in power but they will sit across you from you and tell you they could design and test digital circuits. They had no clue what they were talking about, but they did not stop them from claiming their could do they job, I give they credit for the positive attitude, but these people were replacing people who have real experience.


    I completely agree with that. I've just left my very well paying consulting gig with one of the top multinational corporations in the hospitably business. The number of H1B Indians well exceeded 50% of all IT personnel, and in some departments the H1B Indians reached 90%.These H1B people get hired via Indian suppliers who do all the H1B paperwork. The "engineers" that they send here have their master's degrees but all of that is on paper only and all of that is braindumped. They memorize questions and answers and pass their exams in their universities. They also memorize books but have no idea what any of that means. They can't apply their "knowledge" to do anything.
    I'm sure some of them buy their degrees. They definitely buy their IT certification, including the most prestigious one. You can buy a CCIE in India for about $10,000. They learn here on the job. Some of them become decent in what they do, while others stay useless. Very few become excellent. 

    They are being hired for lower salaries. They bring with them their "culture". They cook their Indian food in the microwaves. Everything smells like curry. The company had to put step-by-step instructions in every restroom explaining how to use the restroom and how to wash hands after using the restroom. I'm not kidding: a step-by-step instruction. In India, sanitation is the largest problem that the government is trying to solve. Over 700 million Indians have no access to a toilet. These are the people we are bringing here as engineers.

    I've spoken with many of them, and they are nice guys, but they were born to absolute poverty with no toilets or running water, and were recruited to attend a local university in a closest city. They memorized and brain dumped their way to a "degree", and then they get hired here for $40/hour, and it's like hitting a jackpot for them, since they go from absolute poverty to an amazing lifestyle in the US in a matter of five-six years. They get married in India right before they come here (arranged marriages), and the first thing they do here is have a baby or two. The guys are in their early to mid twenties with several kids born in the US. Their wives sit at home and take care of kids, while the husbands are working hourly and over-bill the companies they work for for non-existing overtime. The same work now takes many more people and several times as long to accomplish, and the IT becomes less and less efficient. So, what does the management do? They lay off all the H1B Indians, have some of them rehired though an outsourcing company, and have 80% of IT off-shored in India while 15% on-shored in the US with the same Indians. The remaining 5% are the skeleton crew of Americans who are trying to keep the ship afloat, while the Indians are drilling holes in it to make it sink. This is what's happening to IT here in the US.

    We have outsourced all of the manufacturing, then we tried to outsource all the IT. That didn't work, so we tried to bring the Indian IT on-shore. That didn't save any money, so now they are doing a hybrid model with 80% of IT off-shored and 15% on-shored (for hands-on support). Any American who stays with the company has a hell of a problem trying to understand anything being said on conference calls. It's hard enough to understand the Indian accent of those who have been here for a few years, but once most of the jobs off-shored to India, it's impossible to understand ANYTHING that those guys who have never left India say. Sometimes you wonder if they are speaking English or Gujarati. Sometimes you realize they are speaking English, but you have no clue what is being said. Sometimes you realize they are actually speaking Gujarati or Tamil with a few English words in the middle. You have to ask the on-shored Indians to translate what's being said from the off-shored Indian English to the on-shored Indian English. It's just amazing what a corporation would do for the bottom line, including shooting itself in the balls with an anti-aircraft machine gun.

    Finally, I had to leave the consulting gig, as I couldn't stand it anymore. Every project came to screeching halt, nothing could be accomplished, as everyone who knew what they were doing was either laid off or left in complete frustration. You all know the company that I consulted for. Its hotels are all over the world.  

    You know what they will be saying in another 10-15 years? "We can't do any IT in this country. We have no IT culture. Only Indians know how to do IT."
    edited December 2018
  • Reply 30 of 39
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    sirozha said:
    My town is inundated with H1B-visa Indians who have replaced 50% or more of American IT personnel. About 35% of doctors are Indian on H1B visas. They have pushed Americans out of the jobs here, and these are not manufacturing jobs. These are high-tech and medical jobs. As a result, housing prices are  through the roof. These temporary Indians are buying several houses each on interest-only loans, knowing full well that they are going to have to leave within 5-6 years and can simply abandon their houses (if the market turns down) with no consequences. Their monthly mortgage payments are significantly lower than apartment rentals because of the ARM-type loans that they take out.  In the meantime, they are collecting rents on the multiple houses that they purchased with no credit history and no permanent status here. How can a temporary worker buy a house in the US on a mortgage is beyond comprehension. We have not learned anything from the 2009 housing crash. 

    If we don't want to manufacture anything, we don't want to build anything, we don't want to work in agriculture, we don't want to study sciences, we don't want to work as engineers, we don't want to be doctors, what the hell are we good for? Are we going to be pigs for the rest of the world to raise until we get fat enough to be slaughtered? 

    We can have robotic factories built in the US and train our citizens to maintain and program robots. If we don't know how to do this, let's invite Chinese, Japanese, and Germans to help us out, pay them handsomely, and learn how to make our own crap efficiently by leveraging the latest robotic technologies for manufacturing. This could not be done three decades ago, but with the advance of technology, it is now possible. 
    Some of the arguments I see against net manufacturing in the USA are just asinine.   I’ve worked in manufacturing in the USA all my life, heavy automation too and it has never been a problem.  

    The electronics industry went went to China for one reason, it was cheap with no responsibilities to consider.  
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 31 of 39
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member

    mac_dog said:
    sirozha said:
    My town is inundated with H1B-visa Indians who have replaced 50% or more of American IT personnel. About 35% of doctors are Indian on H1B visas. They have pushed Americans out of the jobs here, and these are not manufacturing jobs. These are high-tech and medical jobs. As a result, housing prices are  through the roof. These temporary Indians are buying several houses each on interest-only loans, knowing full well that they are going to have to leave within 5-6 years and can simply abandon their houses (if the market turns down) with no consequences. Their monthly mortgage payments are significantly lower than apartment rentals because of the ARM-type loans that they take out.  In the meantime, they are collecting rents on the multiple houses that they purchased with no credit history and no permanent status here. How can a temporary worker buy a house in the US on a mortgage is beyond comprehension. We have not learned anything from the 2009 housing crash. 

    If we don't want to manufacture anything, we don't want to build anything, we don't want to work in agriculture, we don't want to study sciences, we don't want to work as engineers, we don't want to be doctors, what the hell are we good for? Are we going to be pigs for the rest of the world to raise until we get fat enough to be slaughtered? 

    We can have robotic factories built in the US and train our citizens to maintain and program robots. If we don't know how to do this, let's invite Chinese, Japanese, and Germans to help us out, pay them handsomely, and learn how to make our own crap efficiently by leveraging the latest robotic technologies for manufacturing. This could not be done three decades ago, but with the advance of technology, it is now possible. 
    We’re already too fat. Seriously, though. Companies hire the best. Period. We don’t even have an adequate school infrastructure. This is what happens when you have 10x the amount of money pouring into the military. You leave nothing for educating the masses. The irony about Indians is that they modeled their school system after our public system of the 60’s & 70’s. 
    This is non sense, public schools have never been a problem.    The problem rests directly with companies that want cheap labor over social responsibility.   Believe me these H1B people are not any better nor any worse than the average American.    What is different is their being willing to work with substandard wages and benefits.  This drives the whole living standard in the country down.  Thus jobs that might have been appealing end up not being able to sustain people that have to pay the taxes  and otherwise sustain the community.   


  • Reply 32 of 39
    wizard69 said:

    mac_dog said:
    sirozha said:
    My town is inundated with H1B-visa Indians who have replaced 50% or more of American IT personnel. About 35% of doctors are Indian on H1B visas. They have pushed Americans out of the jobs here, and these are not manufacturing jobs. These are high-tech and medical jobs. As a result, housing prices are  through the roof. These temporary Indians are buying several houses each on interest-only loans, knowing full well that they are going to have to leave within 5-6 years and can simply abandon their houses (if the market turns down) with no consequences. Their monthly mortgage payments are significantly lower than apartment rentals because of the ARM-type loans that they take out.  In the meantime, they are collecting rents on the multiple houses that they purchased with no credit history and no permanent status here. How can a temporary worker buy a house in the US on a mortgage is beyond comprehension. We have not learned anything from the 2009 housing crash. 

    If we don't want to manufacture anything, we don't want to build anything, we don't want to work in agriculture, we don't want to study sciences, we don't want to work as engineers, we don't want to be doctors, what the hell are we good for? Are we going to be pigs for the rest of the world to raise until we get fat enough to be slaughtered? 

    We can have robotic factories built in the US and train our citizens to maintain and program robots. If we don't know how to do this, let's invite Chinese, Japanese, and Germans to help us out, pay them handsomely, and learn how to make our own crap efficiently by leveraging the latest robotic technologies for manufacturing. This could not be done three decades ago, but with the advance of technology, it is now possible. 
    We’re already too fat. Seriously, though. Companies hire the best. Period. We don’t even have an adequate school infrastructure. This is what happens when you have 10x the amount of money pouring into the military. You leave nothing for educating the masses. The irony about Indians is that they modeled their school system after our public system of the 60’s & 70’s. 
    This is non sense, public schools have never been a problem.    The problem rests directly with companies that want cheap labor over social responsibility.   Believe me these H1B people are not any better nor any worse than the average American.    What is different is their being willing to work with substandard wages and benefits.  This drives the whole living standard in the country down.  Thus jobs that might have been appealing end up not being able to sustain people that have to pay the taxes  and otherwise sustain the community.   


    We have a shortage of Americans wanting to study Engineering, Science, or Medicine. Americans want to go to Finance or Law. We are now bringing in engineers, scientists and doctors from third-world countries. None of them are good. It's scary to be treated by an Indian or Pakistani doctor. I have some horror stories to tell about the past couple of years of being treated by an Indian and Pakistani doctors. 

    Our educational system is absolutely failing Americans. We can't teach math or science in regular public schools unless those are specialized science and technology schools. Our kids are scared of math and science. Most don't want to touch those subjects with a 10-foot pole. We are also bad at teaching foreign languages, music, and pretty much everything else. Our gold standard is an iPad for every student and standardized tests. Kids don't learn anything useful in schools, yet we spend more on each kid's education than any other country in the world. We are preparing our kids to be consumers, not creators.  
    docno42
  • Reply 33 of 39
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    danox said:
    What data do you need? Other than Germany, most of the western countries (particularity the English speaking ones) are in the process of quitting, (have been since the 1970's) if Apple with 100's of billions being flushed down the buyout drain can't invest natively who will.
    Actually I’ve worked in manufacturing in the USA, in the same plant, and have been doing so for decades.   That includes all the automation and robotics you might want.   It isn’t really something that is difficult to achieve.  

    The problem is not tech nor people to run the plants.   It is rather a permissive attitude within government that has permitted, even encouraged the transfer of our industry off shore.   Frankly greed at the corporate and political level.  By the way both political parties benefited from this with Trump being the first president in decades to confrontation by the screwing over that the America can citizens have recieved.   This is one of the reasons both parties hate Trump so much because it impacts their Ability to generate wealth off “free trade”.  

    Thisisnt to say that all avenues Trump has taken are good but the constant attacks on Trump are about maintaining the status quo.  Free trade has done more to channel wealth into a few than any other government policy in decades.   Those few are heavily involved in the two big political parties, sometimes both parties at the same time.  

    In in the end the flight of manufacturing from the USA is more about politics than ability.   
    docno42
  • Reply 34 of 39
    sreesree Posts: 152member
    mac_dog said:
    sirozha said:
    My town is inundated with H1B-visa Indians who have replaced 50% or more of American IT personnel. About 35% of doctors are Indian on H1B visas. They have pushed Americans out of the jobs here, and these are not manufacturing jobs. These are high-tech and medical jobs. As a result, housing prices are  through the roof. These temporary Indians are buying several houses each on interest-only loans, knowing full well that they are going to have to leave within 5-6 years and can simply abandon their houses (if the market turns down) with no consequences. Their monthly mortgage payments are significantly lower than apartment rentals because of the ARM-type loans that they take out.  In the meantime, they are collecting rents on the multiple houses that they purchased with no credit history and no permanent status here. How can a temporary worker buy a house in the US on a mortgage is beyond comprehension. We have not learned anything from the 2009 housing crash. 

    If we don't want to manufacture anything, we don't want to build anything, we don't want to work in agriculture, we don't want to study sciences, we don't want to work as engineers, we don't want to be doctors, what the hell are we good for? Are we going to be pigs for the rest of the world to raise until we get fat enough to be slaughtered? 

    We can have robotic factories built in the US and train our citizens to maintain and program robots. If we don't know how to do this, let's invite Chinese, Japanese, and Germans to help us out, pay them handsomely, and learn how to make our own crap efficiently by leveraging the latest robotic technologies for manufacturing. This could not be done three decades ago, but with the advance of technology, it is now possible. 
    We’re already too fat. Seriously, though. Companies hire the best. Period. We don’t even have an adequate school infrastructure. This is what happens when you have 10x the amount of money pouring into the military. You leave nothing for educating the masses. The irony about Indians is that they modeled their school system after our public system of the 60’s & 70’s. 

    Well, I have been in the indian education system and the american education system. Blaming the american education system is really silly. It is so much superior. But, availability of good education system is different from availability of good students.

    Indians have been drilled in from childhood about the importance of a good education to get ahead in life, so the successful ones are highly self-motivated. You don't see the failures in the US, since only a small percentage manage to make it there. Indian education system produces more failures than successes.

    The idea that H1B visas are somehow eating american jobs is a little misleading. There is a cap of 65000 H1B visas per year, for all the countries combined (this cap has been going up and down a bit over the years). Indians and Chinese grab a lions share, but that is still just about 50,000 people every year. So, considering a 10yr timeframe (6yrs of H1B, plus another 3yrs of possible extension) and conversions of around 100,000 into employment-based green cards per year from the waitlist. You are looking at around 1-1.5million foreign workers in IT, medicine, business, finance and other white-collar work over the last 10yrs. The working population of US is around 150million. so, the foriegn workers are <1% of the working population of the US. It is just that they are mostly very good, and successful, which makes them conspicuous and a target of hate crime.

    It looks to me like american students have not been interested in science education in recent times, and that is a bigger problem. very few students are seen at masters and doctorate levels in the universities (about 1 or 2 per classroom). Arts, finance, business, marketing, music, sales, sports etc. seems to be their priority.

  • Reply 35 of 39
    sree said:
    mac_dog said:
    sirozha said:
    My town is inundated with H1B-visa Indians who have replaced 50% or more of American IT personnel. About 35% of doctors are Indian on H1B visas. They have pushed Americans out of the jobs here, and these are not manufacturing jobs. These are high-tech and medical jobs. As a result, housing prices are  through the roof. These temporary Indians are buying several houses each on interest-only loans, knowing full well that they are going to have to leave within 5-6 years and can simply abandon their houses (if the market turns down) with no consequences. Their monthly mortgage payments are significantly lower than apartment rentals because of the ARM-type loans that they take out.  In the meantime, they are collecting rents on the multiple houses that they purchased with no credit history and no permanent status here. How can a temporary worker buy a house in the US on a mortgage is beyond comprehension. We have not learned anything from the 2009 housing crash. 

    If we don't want to manufacture anything, we don't want to build anything, we don't want to work in agriculture, we don't want to study sciences, we don't want to work as engineers, we don't want to be doctors, what the hell are we good for? Are we going to be pigs for the rest of the world to raise until we get fat enough to be slaughtered? 

    We can have robotic factories built in the US and train our citizens to maintain and program robots. If we don't know how to do this, let's invite Chinese, Japanese, and Germans to help us out, pay them handsomely, and learn how to make our own crap efficiently by leveraging the latest robotic technologies for manufacturing. This could not be done three decades ago, but with the advance of technology, it is now possible. 
    We’re already too fat. Seriously, though. Companies hire the best. Period. We don’t even have an adequate school infrastructure. This is what happens when you have 10x the amount of money pouring into the military. You leave nothing for educating the masses. The irony about Indians is that they modeled their school system after our public system of the 60’s & 70’s. 

    Well, I have been in the indian education system and the american education system. Blaming the american education system is really silly. It is so much superior. But, availability of good education system is different from availability of good students.

    Indians have been drilled in from childhood about the importance of a good education to get ahead in life, so the successful ones are highly self-motivated. You don't see the failures in the US, since only a small percentage manage to make it there. Indian education system produces more failures than successes.

    The idea that H1B visas are somehow eating american jobs is a little misleading. There is a cap of 65000 H1B visas per year, for all the countries combined (this cap has been going up and down a bit over the years). Indians and Chinese grab a lions share, but that is still just about 50,000 people every year. So, considering a 10yr timeframe (6yrs of H1B, plus another 3yrs of possible extension) and conversions of around 100,000 into employment-based green cards per year from the waitlist. You are looking at around 1-1.5million foreign workers in IT, medicine, business, finance and other white-collar work over the last 10yrs. The working population of US is around 150million. so, the foriegn workers are <1% of the working population of the US. It is just that they are mostly very good, and successful, which makes them conspicuous and a target of hate crime.

    It looks to me like american students have not been interested in science education in recent times, and that is a bigger problem. very few students are seen at masters and doctorate levels in the universities (about 1 or 2 per classroom). Arts, finance, business, marketing, music, sales, sports etc. seems to be their priority.

    I don’t think your calculations are accurate. Many H1B visa holders eventually get green cards. So, the real number of Indians in IT well exceed your calculations. In fact, I’ve worked with some Indians who came to the US 20 years ago on H1B and are now US citizens. They took jobs from Americans who were pushed out from their jobs 20 years ago. It may take 5-6 years for an H1B visa holder to get a green card, so in the past 25 years, we have added 2-3 million IT workers and hundreds of  thousands of doctors from other countries to our work force. It’s a significant number of high paying jobs we gave away, while pushing Americans out of their jobs.

    Now a lot of these people are Americans, so
    even mentioning the fact they they pushed someone out of the job would be considered racist. It’s how we have allowed our politicians and executives to rape our country for decades. One can only imagine what they have done to our manufacturing and the scale of the disaster they have brought upon the American people by outsourcing manufacturing almost entirely. 

    By by the way, these are not traditional immigrants who come here with very little and work their way to the top through hard work and dedication. These people land here with almost no experience and take well paying jobs away from the Americans. The starting pay of an H1B visa holder is north of $40/hour. 
    edited December 2018
  • Reply 36 of 39
    sreesree Posts: 152member
    sirozha said:
    sree said:
    mac_dog said:
    sirozha said:
    My town is inundated with H1B-visa Indians who have replaced 50% or more of American IT personnel. About 35% of doctors are Indian on H1B visas. They have pushed Americans out of the jobs here, and these are not manufacturing jobs. These are high-tech and medical jobs. As a result, housing prices are  through the roof. These temporary Indians are buying several houses each on interest-only loans, knowing full well that they are going to have to leave within 5-6 years and can simply abandon their houses (if the market turns down) with no consequences. Their monthly mortgage payments are significantly lower than apartment rentals because of the ARM-type loans that they take out.  In the meantime, they are collecting rents on the multiple houses that they purchased with no credit history and no permanent status here. How can a temporary worker buy a house in the US on a mortgage is beyond comprehension. We have not learned anything from the 2009 housing crash. 

    If we don't want to manufacture anything, we don't want to build anything, we don't want to work in agriculture, we don't want to study sciences, we don't want to work as engineers, we don't want to be doctors, what the hell are we good for? Are we going to be pigs for the rest of the world to raise until we get fat enough to be slaughtered? 

    We can have robotic factories built in the US and train our citizens to maintain and program robots. If we don't know how to do this, let's invite Chinese, Japanese, and Germans to help us out, pay them handsomely, and learn how to make our own crap efficiently by leveraging the latest robotic technologies for manufacturing. This could not be done three decades ago, but with the advance of technology, it is now possible. 
    We’re already too fat. Seriously, though. Companies hire the best. Period. We don’t even have an adequate school infrastructure. This is what happens when you have 10x the amount of money pouring into the military. You leave nothing for educating the masses. The irony about Indians is that they modeled their school system after our public system of the 60’s & 70’s. 

    Well, I have been in the indian education system and the american education system. Blaming the american education system is really silly. It is so much superior. But, availability of good education system is different from availability of good students.

    Indians have been drilled in from childhood about the importance of a good education to get ahead in life, so the successful ones are highly self-motivated. You don't see the failures in the US, since only a small percentage manage to make it there. Indian education system produces more failures than successes.

    The idea that H1B visas are somehow eating american jobs is a little misleading. There is a cap of 65000 H1B visas per year, for all the countries combined (this cap has been going up and down a bit over the years). Indians and Chinese grab a lions share, but that is still just about 50,000 people every year. So, considering a 10yr timeframe (6yrs of H1B, plus another 3yrs of possible extension) and conversions of around 100,000 into employment-based green cards per year from the waitlist. You are looking at around 1-1.5million foreign workers in IT, medicine, business, finance and other white-collar work over the last 10yrs. The working population of US is around 150million. so, the foriegn workers are <1% of the working population of the US. It is just that they are mostly very good, and successful, which makes them conspicuous and a target of hate crime.

    It looks to me like american students have not been interested in science education in recent times, and that is a bigger problem. very few students are seen at masters and doctorate levels in the universities (about 1 or 2 per classroom). Arts, finance, business, marketing, music, sales, sports etc. seems to be their priority.

    I don’t think your calculations are accurate. Many H1B visa holders eventually get green cards. So, the real number of Indians in IT well exceed your calculations. In fact, I’ve worked with some Indians who came to the US 20 years ago on H1B and are now US citizens. They took jobs from Americans who were pushed out from their jobs 20 years ago. It may take 5-6 years for an H1B visa holder to get a green card, so in the past 25 years, we have added 2-3 million IT workers and hundreds of  thousands of doctors from other countries to our work force. It’s a significant number of high paying jobs we gave away, while pushing Americans out of their jobs.

    Now a lot of these people are Americans, so
    even mentioning the fact they they pushed someone out of the job would be considered racist. It’s how we have allowed our politicians and executives to rape our country for decades. One can only imagine what they have done to our manufacturing and the scale of the disaster they have brought upon the American people by outsourcing manufacturing almost entirely. 

    By by the way, these are not traditional immigrants who come here with very little and work their way to the top through hard work and dedication. These people land here with almost no experience and take well paying jobs away from the Americans. The starting pay of an H1B visa holder is north of $40/hour. 

    I have considered green cards. There are a total of 13.2million green card holders in the US (all time numbers as of 2014). Only 6% of green card holders are employment-based (the rest are family - spouses, children, parents etc.), i.e. ~1million working green card holders. And considering a max of 10yrs for H1B visas, ~0.5million H1B visa holders. So, that makes it ~1.5million employed immigrants. (We can consider an error margin of ~0.5million since H1B visa limits have fluctuated over the years. This includes IT workers, doctors and all other professions). 
  • Reply 37 of 39
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 5,043member
    sirozha said:
    maestro64 said:
    mac_dog said:
    sirozha said:
    My town is inundated with H1B-visa Indians who have replaced 50% or more of American IT personnel. About 35% of doctors are Indian on H1B visas. They have pushed Americans out of the jobs here, and these are not manufacturing jobs. These are high-tech and medical jobs. As a result, housing prices are  through the roof. These temporary Indians are buying several houses each on interest-only loans, knowing full well that they are going to have to leave within 5-6 years and can simply abandon their houses (if the market turns down) with no consequences. Their monthly mortgage payments are significantly lower than apartment rentals because of the ARM-type loans that they take out.  In the meantime, they are collecting rents on the multiple houses that they purchased with no credit history and no permanent status here. How can a temporary worker buy a house in the US on a mortgage is beyond comprehension. We have not learned anything from the 2009 housing crash. 

    If we don't want to manufacture anything, we don't want to build anything, we don't want to work in agriculture, we don't want to study sciences, we don't want to work as engineers, we don't want to be doctors, what the hell are we good for? Are we going to be pigs for the rest of the world to raise until we get fat enough to be slaughtered? 

    We can have robotic factories built in the US and train our citizens to maintain and program robots. If we don't know how to do this, let's invite Chinese, Japanese, and Germans to help us out, pay them handsomely, and learn how to make our own crap efficiently by leveraging the latest robotic technologies for manufacturing. This could not be done three decades ago, but with the advance of technology, it is now possible. 
    We’re already too fat. Seriously, though. Companies hire the best. Period. We don’t even have an adequate school infrastructure. This is what happens when you have 10x the amount of money pouring into the military. You leave nothing for educating the masses. The irony about Indians is that they modeled their school system after our public system of the 60’s & 70’s. 
    As person who worked for companies who hired lots of H1B, i can tell you its not about hiring the best talent, it about hiring the lowest cost. H1B do not command the same salary as their US counter parts. Many times instead of sponsoring and H1B since only so many can be sponsored each year the companies I worked for would just outsource to these foreign countries and hire lots of people locally and 25% the US wage.  Also as person who has seen lots of H1B resumes and interview a fair number of them, they are not as well educated as the US counter parts. I will give you one example since this is what I had the most experience with. I would get resumes of people who had an education in Electronics Engineering or the close equivalent, most all these people had no experience in electronic, most their experience was in power but they will sit across you from you and tell you they could design and test digital circuits. They had no clue what they were talking about, but they did not stop them from claiming their could do they job, I give they credit for the positive attitude, but these people were replacing people who have real experience.


    I completely agree with that. I've just left my very well paying consulting gig with one of the top multinational corporations in the hospitably business. The number of H1B Indians well exceeded 50% of all IT personnel, and in some departments the H1B Indians reached 90%.These H1B people get hired via Indian suppliers who do all the H1B paperwork. The "engineers" that they send here have their master's degrees but all of that is on paper only and all of that is braindumped. They memorize questions and answers and pass their exams in their universities. They also memorize books but have no idea what any of that means. They can't apply their "knowledge" to do anything.
    I'm sure some of them buy their degrees. They definitely buy their IT certification, including the most prestigious one. You can buy a CCIE in India for about $10,000. They learn here on the job. Some of them become decent in what they do, while others stay useless. Very few become excellent. 

    They are being hired for lower salaries. They bring with them their "culture". They cook their Indian food in the microwaves. Everything smells like curry. The company had to put step-by-step instructions in every restroom explaining how to use the restroom and how to wash hands after using the restroom. I'm not kidding: a step-by-step instruction. In India, sanitation is the largest problem that the government is trying to solve. Over 700 million Indians have no access to a toilet. These are the people we are bringing here as engineers.

    I've spoken with many of them, and they are nice guys, but they were born to absolute poverty with no toilets or running water, and were recruited to attend a local university in a closest city. They memorized and brain dumped their way to a "degree", and then they get hired here for $40/hour, and it's like hitting a jackpot for them, since they go from absolute poverty to an amazing lifestyle in the US in a matter of five-six years. They get married in India right before they come here (arranged marriages), and the first thing they do here is have a baby or two. The guys are in their early to mid twenties with several kids born in the US. Their wives sit at home and take care of kids, while the husbands are working hourly and over-bill the companies they work for for non-existing overtime. The same work now takes many more people and several times as long to accomplish, and the IT becomes less and less efficient. So, what does the management do? They lay off all the H1B Indians, have some of them rehired though an outsourcing company, and have 80% of IT off-shored in India while 15% on-shored in the US with the same Indians. The remaining 5% are the skeleton crew of Americans who are trying to keep the ship afloat, while the Indians are drilling holes in it to make it sink. This is what's happening to IT here in the US.

    We have outsourced all of the manufacturing, then we tried to outsource all the IT. That didn't work, so we tried to bring the Indian IT on-shore. That didn't save any money, so now they are doing a hybrid model with 80% of IT off-shored and 15% on-shored (for hands-on support). Any American who stays with the company has a hell of a problem trying to understand anything being said on conference calls. It's hard enough to understand the Indian accent of those who have been here for a few years, but once most of the jobs off-shored to India, it's impossible to understand ANYTHING that those guys who have never left India say. Sometimes you wonder if they are speaking English or Gujarati. Sometimes you realize they are speaking English, but you have no clue what is being said. Sometimes you realize they are actually speaking Gujarati or Tamil with a few English words in the middle. You have to ask the on-shored Indians to translate what's being said from the off-shored Indian English to the on-shored Indian English. It's just amazing what a corporation would do for the bottom line, including shooting itself in the balls with an anti-aircraft machine gun.

    Finally, I had to leave the consulting gig, as I couldn't stand it anymore. Every project came to screeching halt, nothing could be accomplished, as everyone who knew what they were doing was either laid off or left in complete frustration. You all know the company that I consulted for. Its hotels are all over the world.  

    You know what they will be saying in another 10-15 years? "We can't do any IT in this country. We have no IT culture. Only Indians know how to do IT."
    I find it funny your company had the same bathroom experience as my company. We use to complain to our facility group about their cheap ass cleaning company who was not cleaning the bathroom each day. Turns out they were the bathrooms were just so bad by mid day, then we figure out it was all the newly hired H1B who came to the US who did not know how to use a bathroom properly. My company actually hired an outside company to teach these people proper hygiene practices. What people do not realize the Government is not allowing the best of the best but the people who will work for the least amount of money for the same high paying job. Companies did not care these people were less productive, they could hire 2 or 3 of them for the same cost of the US born and educated person.

    Even this tended to backfire, The H1B would work for a while at the low wages for entry level jobs, then they would get together as group along with more senior level people from their same background most time born and educated in the US. The H1B would quickly find out they were making 25% of the more senior person. They would then try to demand to same pay as the more senior person. The argument was the senior person wrote code and the H1B wrote code so they should make the same 6 figure income as the senior person. They did not care the senior person had 10  to 15 yrs of experience went to a top US school, verses the H1B who has 1 or 2 yrs experience and went so no name school. As far as H1b was concern they were doing the same work, have you heard this term before. I use to tell management to fire the H1B for asking for more and also fire the more senior person for tell the H1B what they made, but they didn't they caved and end up paying the H1B more.

    BTW, the reason most US company no longer hire H1B directly is for a couple of reason. First, if you need to get rid of H!B for any reason the US government mandates you deport them at the companies cost. The H1B law requires that once a person is no longer working, they have to exit the US with 30 days. If the person does not and are caught (which barely happens as we know) the US company could be fined. The US company is the sponsor for the H1B and assumes all responsibility for them in the US.

    The second issue, anyone who works for a US company as an H1B the company is required to post that job every 2 yrs to the open public and if a US citizen can do the job they are required to get rid of the H1B and hire the US citizen. I worked with a engineer from Sweden who was on the H1B and his job was posted all the time, the only thing going in his favor was the fact he did something very specific that very few people could do the job and the Company use to write the job description so specific it made it extremely hard for any one to apply. One time someone did apply and he was very concern he would lose his job and would have the leave the US. Today their are third parts who sponsor and hire H1B, and they will contract their services out and companies do not have to worry about hiring and firing.
  • Reply 38 of 39
    sree said:
    sirozha said:
    sree said:
    mac_dog said:
    sirozha said:
    My town is inundated with H1B-visa Indians who have replaced 50% or more of American IT personnel. About 35% of doctors are Indian on H1B visas. They have pushed Americans out of the jobs here, and these are not manufacturing jobs. These are high-tech and medical jobs. As a result, housing prices are  through the roof. These temporary Indians are buying several houses each on interest-only loans, knowing full well that they are going to have to leave within 5-6 years and can simply abandon their houses (if the market turns down) with no consequences. Their monthly mortgage payments are significantly lower than apartment rentals because of the ARM-type loans that they take out.  In the meantime, they are collecting rents on the multiple houses that they purchased with no credit history and no permanent status here. How can a temporary worker buy a house in the US on a mortgage is beyond comprehension. We have not learned anything from the 2009 housing crash. 

    If we don't want to manufacture anything, we don't want to build anything, we don't want to work in agriculture, we don't want to study sciences, we don't want to work as engineers, we don't want to be doctors, what the hell are we good for? Are we going to be pigs for the rest of the world to raise until we get fat enough to be slaughtered? 

    We can have robotic factories built in the US and train our citizens to maintain and program robots. If we don't know how to do this, let's invite Chinese, Japanese, and Germans to help us out, pay them handsomely, and learn how to make our own crap efficiently by leveraging the latest robotic technologies for manufacturing. This could not be done three decades ago, but with the advance of technology, it is now possible. 
    We’re already too fat. Seriously, though. Companies hire the best. Period. We don’t even have an adequate school infrastructure. This is what happens when you have 10x the amount of money pouring into the military. You leave nothing for educating the masses. The irony about Indians is that they modeled their school system after our public system of the 60’s & 70’s. 

    Well, I have been in the indian education system and the american education system. Blaming the american education system is really silly. It is so much superior. But, availability of good education system is different from availability of good students.

    Indians have been drilled in from childhood about the importance of a good education to get ahead in life, so the successful ones are highly self-motivated. You don't see the failures in the US, since only a small percentage manage to make it there. Indian education system produces more failures than successes.

    The idea that H1B visas are somehow eating american jobs is a little misleading. There is a cap of 65000 H1B visas per year, for all the countries combined (this cap has been going up and down a bit over the years). Indians and Chinese grab a lions share, but that is still just about 50,000 people every year. So, considering a 10yr timeframe (6yrs of H1B, plus another 3yrs of possible extension) and conversions of around 100,000 into employment-based green cards per year from the waitlist. You are looking at around 1-1.5million foreign workers in IT, medicine, business, finance and other white-collar work over the last 10yrs. The working population of US is around 150million. so, the foriegn workers are <1% of the working population of the US. It is just that they are mostly very good, and successful, which makes them conspicuous and a target of hate crime.

    It looks to me like american students have not been interested in science education in recent times, and that is a bigger problem. very few students are seen at masters and doctorate levels in the universities (about 1 or 2 per classroom). Arts, finance, business, marketing, music, sales, sports etc. seems to be their priority.

    I don’t think your calculations are accurate. Many H1B visa holders eventually get green cards. So, the real number of Indians in IT well exceed your calculations. In fact, I’ve worked with some Indians who came to the US 20 years ago on H1B and are now US citizens. They took jobs from Americans who were pushed out from their jobs 20 years ago. It may take 5-6 years for an H1B visa holder to get a green card, so in the past 25 years, we have added 2-3 million IT workers and hundreds of  thousands of doctors from other countries to our work force. It’s a significant number of high paying jobs we gave away, while pushing Americans out of their jobs.

    Now a lot of these people are Americans, so
    even mentioning the fact they they pushed someone out of the job would be considered racist. It’s how we have allowed our politicians and executives to rape our country for decades. One can only imagine what they have done to our manufacturing and the scale of the disaster they have brought upon the American people by outsourcing manufacturing almost entirely. 

    By by the way, these are not traditional immigrants who come here with very little and work their way to the top through hard work and dedication. These people land here with almost no experience and take well paying jobs away from the Americans. The starting pay of an H1B visa holder is north of $40/hour. 

    I have considered green cards. There are a total of 13.2million green card holders in the US (all time numbers as of 2014). Only 6% of green card holders are employment-based (the rest are family - spouses, children, parents etc.), i.e. ~1million working green card holders. And considering a max of 10yrs for H1B visas, ~0.5million H1B visa holders. So, that makes it ~1.5million employed immigrants. (We can consider an error margin of ~0.5million since H1B visa limits have fluctuated over the years. This includes IT workers, doctors and all other professions). 
    You didn’t consider citizens. Green card holders become citizens in 5 years. 
  • Reply 39 of 39
    sreesree Posts: 152member
    sirozha said:
    sree said:
    sirozha said:
    sree said:
    mac_dog said:
    sirozha said:
    My town is inundated with H1B-visa Indians who have replaced 50% or more of American IT personnel. About 35% of doctors are Indian on H1B visas. They have pushed Americans out of the jobs here, and these are not manufacturing jobs. These are high-tech and medical jobs. As a result, housing prices are  through the roof. These temporary Indians are buying several houses each on interest-only loans, knowing full well that they are going to have to leave within 5-6 years and can simply abandon their houses (if the market turns down) with no consequences. Their monthly mortgage payments are significantly lower than apartment rentals because of the ARM-type loans that they take out.  In the meantime, they are collecting rents on the multiple houses that they purchased with no credit history and no permanent status here. How can a temporary worker buy a house in the US on a mortgage is beyond comprehension. We have not learned anything from the 2009 housing crash. 

    If we don't want to manufacture anything, we don't want to build anything, we don't want to work in agriculture, we don't want to study sciences, we don't want to work as engineers, we don't want to be doctors, what the hell are we good for? Are we going to be pigs for the rest of the world to raise until we get fat enough to be slaughtered? 

    We can have robotic factories built in the US and train our citizens to maintain and program robots. If we don't know how to do this, let's invite Chinese, Japanese, and Germans to help us out, pay them handsomely, and learn how to make our own crap efficiently by leveraging the latest robotic technologies for manufacturing. This could not be done three decades ago, but with the advance of technology, it is now possible. 
    We’re already too fat. Seriously, though. Companies hire the best. Period. We don’t even have an adequate school infrastructure. This is what happens when you have 10x the amount of money pouring into the military. You leave nothing for educating the masses. The irony about Indians is that they modeled their school system after our public system of the 60’s & 70’s. 

    Well, I have been in the indian education system and the american education system. Blaming the american education system is really silly. It is so much superior. But, availability of good education system is different from availability of good students.

    Indians have been drilled in from childhood about the importance of a good education to get ahead in life, so the successful ones are highly self-motivated. You don't see the failures in the US, since only a small percentage manage to make it there. Indian education system produces more failures than successes.

    The idea that H1B visas are somehow eating american jobs is a little misleading. There is a cap of 65000 H1B visas per year, for all the countries combined (this cap has been going up and down a bit over the years). Indians and Chinese grab a lions share, but that is still just about 50,000 people every year. So, considering a 10yr timeframe (6yrs of H1B, plus another 3yrs of possible extension) and conversions of around 100,000 into employment-based green cards per year from the waitlist. You are looking at around 1-1.5million foreign workers in IT, medicine, business, finance and other white-collar work over the last 10yrs. The working population of US is around 150million. so, the foriegn workers are <1% of the working population of the US. It is just that they are mostly very good, and successful, which makes them conspicuous and a target of hate crime.

    It looks to me like american students have not been interested in science education in recent times, and that is a bigger problem. very few students are seen at masters and doctorate levels in the universities (about 1 or 2 per classroom). Arts, finance, business, marketing, music, sales, sports etc. seems to be their priority.

    I don’t think your calculations are accurate. Many H1B visa holders eventually get green cards. So, the real number of Indians in IT well exceed your calculations. In fact, I’ve worked with some Indians who came to the US 20 years ago on H1B and are now US citizens. They took jobs from Americans who were pushed out from their jobs 20 years ago. It may take 5-6 years for an H1B visa holder to get a green card, so in the past 25 years, we have added 2-3 million IT workers and hundreds of  thousands of doctors from other countries to our work force. It’s a significant number of high paying jobs we gave away, while pushing Americans out of their jobs.

    Now a lot of these people are Americans, so
    even mentioning the fact they they pushed someone out of the job would be considered racist. It’s how we have allowed our politicians and executives to rape our country for decades. One can only imagine what they have done to our manufacturing and the scale of the disaster they have brought upon the American people by outsourcing manufacturing almost entirely. 

    By by the way, these are not traditional immigrants who come here with very little and work their way to the top through hard work and dedication. These people land here with almost no experience and take well paying jobs away from the Americans. The starting pay of an H1B visa holder is north of $40/hour. 

    I have considered green cards. There are a total of 13.2million green card holders in the US (all time numbers as of 2014). Only 6% of green card holders are employment-based (the rest are family - spouses, children, parents etc.), i.e. ~1million working green card holders. And considering a max of 10yrs for H1B visas, ~0.5million H1B visa holders. So, that makes it ~1.5million employed immigrants. (We can consider an error margin of ~0.5million since H1B visa limits have fluctuated over the years. This includes IT workers, doctors and all other professions). 
    You didn’t consider citizens. Green card holders become citizens in 5 years. 
    Citizens are not a significant number at this point. There is a 10year waitlist for getting greencards for indians and chinese. conversion into citizenship is a fair distance away.
Sign In or Register to comment.