Fingerprint ID has always been considered secure so why the rush to go to FaceID? It seems as tho Apple went down that road in order to increase the screen size with under/in-screen TouchID not yet workable. Me-too Android stuff is silly IMHO.
If it wasn't broken (as in insecure), and they can build a near-bevelless smartphone by using new tech that allows for under-screen fingerprint sensing why even bother with face-scanning? Marketing I suppose.
FaceID, according to Apple, is some 20x less likely to give a false positive from within the general populace. Yeah, I get that 1 in 50,000 (TouchID) is already likely sufficiently secure, but why not go with a 1 in 1,000,000 method that also allows a larger display on the same size device (higher screen to handset ratio)?
Absolutely no reason not to, and particularly since it was in a different time and filling a different requirement for a secure unlocking method that would still allow for a near full-screen display. Apple at their innovative best.
The second paragraph I wrote was speaking to Androidtoday and what need the OEM's versions of face unlock fills, not Apple.
How often do you really have TouchID problems tho? I presume they are exceedingly rare.
Security-wise I doubt there is a single member here concerned about TouchID on any of their devices being insecure or exposing them to unlocks by a thief, friend, family member, or random stranger.
I only have issues with Touch ID in instances where you'd expect the fingerprint reader to struggle, like overly wet, overly dry, or dirty fingers. However, Touch ID is nearly useless for my wife because she always pokes the home button with the end of her finger, rather quickly I might add. Because of this, Touch ID only works about 10% of the time for her. What can I say? For her, entering the pass code works fine so there's no reason to waste time learning a new way to do the same old thing. For some folks, Touch ID is simply a shiny trim ring around the home button that makes the phone look a bit nicer.
The thing we, technology fanatics, often overlook are the subtle "accommodations" that takes place between us and our technology devices. We really want the technology to work for us. We absolutely will adapt our behavior, perhaps unknowingly, to help make it work. Rather than poking at the home button like we so a keyboard key, an adding machine button, an old touch tone telephone keypad, or every iPhone/iPad/iPod that does not have Touch ID, we modify our previously learned behaviors to accommodate the needs of our shiny new devices. For Touch ID equipped iPhones this means carefully placing our registered finger on the home button and letting it linger there for a few tenths of a second or longer to allow the fingerprint reader to work. If it stumbles, we try to save it by using a different finger or maybe wiping off the sensor. Whatever it takes, we'll keep trying to make it happy. In essence the machine has subtly trained us to comply with its behaviors and limitations, and we dutifully adapt to whatever changes are required to keep our devices happy. Maybe we do this just to maintain a good relationship with our devices or maybe we do it because that's what we've always had to do when adopting new technology.
Face ID is far less demanding of us and requires fewer accommodations. It seems to work almost all of the time. If it doesn't work, say because I am wearing a ski mask or welding helmet, I'll gladly take them off just so it can work. If I was desperate I suppose I could, OMG, enter the pass code. So primitive. My experience with Face ID is that it almost works too well. There are times when I really don't want it to unlock my device even though I'm looking at it. For example, right before I slide my iPhone into my pocket I tend to peek at it to see whether the screen is turned off so I don't pocket dial someone. But looking at it makes matters worse by unlocking the phone, unless I only glance askew at the face of the phone. Disabling the "raise to unlock" feature alleviates this issue but now I have to touch the phone to unlock it. Touch ID didn't surprise me quite so often, other than occasionally summoning Siri if I pressed too hard or too long on the home button.
No technology is perfect, but it doesn't have to be. We will adapt.
I have to say, I am really pleased at how well FaceID works, and as you observed, sometimes almost too well! I have experienced the same thing when picking up the phone to head out the door or put in my pocket. The simple "accommodation" there is to tap the right side button to quickly put it back to sleep before putting in your pocket. BTW, it's "raise to wake" not unlock, so it seems OK to me to keep this feature enabled, knowing I can put it back to sleep quickly and easily.
The loss of the home button also requires accommodation beyond the loss of TouchID, and that's another story of how well things work. I was a bit nervous about how to navigate without the home button when I first got my XS (coming from a 6, so a big step!), but the swipe up from the bottom works so consistently well, it has become second nature. The line at the bottom when first unlocking or when in an app was initially a great reminder of "where the home button went," and I now find the swipe (and the swipe/pause variant) much more intuitive than the home button.
So wait - the aim was test the 3D recognition feature of the iPhone against the Androids? But then they selected only 2D facial recognition systems in the Androids? So, the compared a feature that the Androids didn't even have?
Revolutionary!
They should do a test of the iPhone X fingerprint recognition versus the Androids. I can see the heading 'Android consistently beats iPhone X fingerprint sensor '
So wait - the aim was test the 3D recognition feature of the iPhone against the Androids? But then they selected only 2D facial recognition systems in the Androids? So, the compared a feature that the Androids didn't even have?
Revolutionary!
They should do a test of the iPhone X fingerprint recognition versus the Androids. I can see the heading 'Android consistently beats iPhone X fingerprint sensor '
So wait - the aim was test the 3D recognition feature of the iPhone against the Androids? But then they selected only 2D facial recognition systems in the Androids? So, the compared a feature that the Androids didn't even have?
Revolutionary!
They should do a test of the iPhone X fingerprint recognition versus the Androids. I can see the heading 'Android consistently beats iPhone X fingerprint sensor '
Briljant!
I think you forgot the sarcasm tag.
The test was on facial recognition (which all of the phones listed claim to have), not 3D recognition. Having 3D facial recognition is a clear advantage of the iPhone X series. @TheDude121’s comment is incorrect, especially the fabricated headline. The other phone manufacturers say they have a facial recognition system on those phones. Apple does not say the iPhone X series has a fingerprint sensor.
You don't think the test would be more objective if they included phones with the same type system ... ?
I mean cherry picking is cool 'n stuff, but majority of technical people (ie not Android or iPhone fans) are going to pick up the rather obvious issue. But it'd be far more fair if they included an Android rival with a real facial recognition system like the iPhone
Unfortunately, Apple loses again....High Android smartphone sales combined with their overall market share percentage are absolutely crushing Apple into a poorly valued mess of a company.
That'll be why the arguably the worlds best, most astute and successful investor, Warren Buffet, continues to buy shares in the business.
You are aware that Apple have hit the same issue as pretty much everyone else - Peak-SmartPhone (all the vendors are reaching this)? And that Apple already saw the writing on the wall which is the reason behind them branching heavily into new areas such as Wearables (the AirPods and the Apple Watch - both of which of which have been monumentally successful and exceptionally strong profit drivers).
Only someone who doesn't truly understand the company would make facile statements such as yours.
Please try to contain your hatred of the company and keep your statements factual.
The recent downturn, however, has caused the value of his investment to drop by nearly $17 billion from its recent highs.
They're definitely slowing down with the competition. Good thing they've stopped dishing out the sales numbers, right? They're also losing market share to Huawei who have rocketed up in the last few years and dropped to the 3rd largest smartphone maker on the planet.
I'm not saying they're unsuccessful at all, but close to 30% share price drop, slow iPhone sales/demand and declining market share is something that should be addressed sooner, rather than later.
You don't think the test would be more objective if they included phones with the same type system ... ?
The same type system? Those manufacturers chose to use a different implementation than Apple did but still market a facial recognition system, which is what was put to the test. It is not Apple's fault nor Forbes' fault that the other implementations can be fooled. It is solely the responsibility of those other manufacturers. Why are you trying to shift blame?
I mean cherry picking is cool 'n stuff, but majority of technical people (ie not Android or iPhone fans) are going to pick up the rather obvious issue. But it'd be far more fair if they included an Android rival with a real facial recognition system like the iPhone
I didn't realize some Android phones were marketed with fake facial recognition systems and others were marketed with real facial recognition systems. I guess Forbes didn't either.
The iPhone is around twice the price of the Androids tested according the article
Androids with 3D Face (ie Huawei Mate 20 Pro or Xiaomi Mi 8 or Oppo Find X) are conveniently left off
There is generally a setting to enable a 'blink' or direct site to open - no mention of it ... was it even on ?
I think any person interested in technology (ie a non bias) is going to look at this and think 'Hmmmmmm'. Obviously, I'd expect most this forum in particular to pat each on the back because this 'test' favours an iPhone.
So wait - the aim was test the 3D recognition feature of the iPhone against the Androids? But then they selected only 2D facial recognition systems in the Androids? So, the compared a feature that the Androids didn't even have?
Revolutionary!
They should do a test of the iPhone X fingerprint recognition versus the Androids. I can see the heading 'Android consistently beats iPhone X fingerprint sensor '
Briljant!
I think you forgot the sarcasm tag.
The test was on facial recognition (which all of the phones listed claim to have), not 3D recognition. Having 3D facial recognition is a clear advantage of the iPhone X series. @TheDude121’s comment is incorrect, especially the fabricated headline. The other phone manufacturers say they have a facial recognition system on those phones. Apple does not say the iPhone X series has a fingerprint sensor.
Agreed. The new account trolls are getting dumber and dumber.
You don't think the test would be more objective if they included phones with the same type system ... ?
I mean cherry picking is cool 'n stuff, but majority of technical people (ie not Android or iPhone fans) are going to pick up the rather obvious issue. But it'd be far more fair if they included an Android rival with a real facial recognition system like the iPhone
It'd probably make for better reading too ...
That’s absolutely fucking stupid. Facial recognition is the feature. The tech implemented to achieve the advertised feature is the responsibility of the manufacturer. As consumers, we can’t be expected to know or care what tech is used to do it. Clearly these knockoffs chose shitty tech. That’s on them. That’s the point of the article.
The recent downturn, however, has caused the value of his investment to drop by nearly $17 billion from its recent highs.
They're definitely slowing down with the competition. Good thing they've stopped dishing out the sales numbers, right? They're also losing market share to Huawei who have rocketed up in the last few years and dropped to the 3rd largest smartphone maker on the planet.
I'm not saying they're unsuccessful at all, but close to 30% share price drop, slow iPhone sales/demand and declining market share is something that should be addressed sooner, rather than later.
Oh look, another newbie advocating worship at the Church of Market Share. Yawn. Market share is not king. Profit is king. Profit is the air corporations breathe. Market share is for people to brag about when they’re not making as much money as the profit leaders.
You don't think the test would be more objective if they included phones with the same type system ... ?
I mean cherry picking is cool 'n stuff, but majority of technical people (ie not Android or iPhone fans) are going to pick up the rather obvious issue. But it'd be far more fair if they included an Android rival with a real facial recognition system like the iPhone
It'd probably make for better reading too ...
That’s absolutely fucking stupid. Facial recognition is the feature. The tech implemented to achieve the advertised feature is the responsibility of the manufacturer. As consumers, we can’t be expected to know or care what tech is used to do it. Clearly these knockoffs chose shitty tech. That’s on them. That’s the point of the article.
Go move your goalposts somewhere else.
Android phones had the tech long before the iPhone (just one iPhone at that) introduced FaceID. Now we have just three phones with the tech (and just three months).
The Android tech has always worked as advertised. In fact, not only as 'advertised' but informed, as just turning the feature on gives you a reminder - in very clear language - that the feature is NOT a security feature. It is a convenience feature. That's why it cannot be used to authorise payments etc.
As a convenience biometric feature it is nice to have. All non iPhone X users could also benefit in exactly the same way but Apple chooses not to provide the feature for them.
You don't think the test would be more objective if they included phones with the same type system ... ?
I mean cherry picking is cool 'n stuff, but majority of technical people (ie not Android or iPhone fans) are going to pick up the rather obvious issue. But it'd be far more fair if they included an Android rival with a real facial recognition system like the iPhone
It'd probably make for better reading too ...
That’s absolutely fucking stupid. Facial recognition is the feature. The tech implemented to achieve the advertised feature is the responsibility of the manufacturer. As consumers, we can’t be expected to know or care what tech is used to do it. Clearly these knockoffs chose shitty tech. That’s on them. That’s the point of the article.
Go move your goalposts somewhere else.
Maybe you should read again because you're not really answering .. you're just getting aggressive.
* There are Android 3D Facial recognition systems - but they were left off the test - why? * There is a setting that will prevent a photo or fake head entering - that was not turned not on - why? * The phones chosen are half the price of the Phone - why?
On a real tech forum, a test like this laughed at. I mean a competitive test with out the competitors doesn't make the best reading. Though, the test makes you feel warm and fuzzy ... and that's all that matters. Personally I'd love to see a competitor in a comparative test.
The recent downturn, however, has caused the value of his investment to drop by nearly $17 billion from its recent highs.
They're definitely slowing down with the competition. Good thing they've stopped dishing out the sales numbers, right? They're also losing market share to Huawei who have rocketed up in the last few years and dropped to the 3rd largest smartphone maker on the planet.
I'm not saying they're unsuccessful at all, but close to 30% share price drop, slow iPhone sales/demand and declining market share is something that should be addressed sooner, rather than later.
Oh look, another newbie advocating worship at the Church of Market Share. Yawn. Market share is not king. Profit is king. Profit is the air corporations breathe. Market share is for people to brag about when they’re not making as much money as the profit leaders.
This was in reply to the Warren Buffet comment - it had nothing to do with you and it was in context. But since you replied
You're right - market share is only one component and by itself, doesn't mean much. But if you add :
- Almost 30% / $250 billion knocked off market cap - Suppliers complaining about slow sales - Investors lowering forecasts warnings - Apple deciding not to release sales figures - I think November was the worst month since 2008?
Holistically (that means we add up all the points) it does a raise a warning bell or two - especially in the short space of time. Look, Apple is not in trouble as they have an army of rabbid, die hard fans (aka you) that will defend every single move they do. But it is something to keep an eye on.
EDIT : I love your comment about not making as much profit and profit leaders. This is your money at the end of the day ... and you're bragging about how much money this company is making off you ? It's bizarre - but I guess it does go to show that the research done on the iPhone / status symbol is correct. For iPhone users It's all about the money at the end of the day and what they've spent.
I mean, on one hand we have a fake giant head getting to an Android system using 2D facial recognition and with the settings switched off to make it less secure - and on the other hand, we have a 10 year old boy opening his moms (another gender, another generation) iPhone with revolutionary 3D IR dots blasting Face ID.
I mean, on one hand we have a fake giant head getting to an Android system using 2D facial recognition and with the settings switched off to make it less secure - and on the other hand, we have a 10 year old boy opening his moms (another gender, another generation) iPhone with revolutionary 3D IR dots blasting Face ID.
It's thought provoking, really.
So, you don't like that a fake head was able to fool some phones that claim to have facial recognition. I get that, it sucks when the phone you like fails at something it's supposed to do. It's like they brought a knife to a gun fight. Don't worry, though, they'll get better with time.
It's odd you keep bringing up the 2D facial recognition on those phones. Aren't the heads of the actual live humans that would use them in 3D? What is the proper method of testing a 2D facial recognition system and how would an actual live human use that 2D facial recognition system to unlock their phone?
It's rather silly that you're bringing up that tired example of the boy unlocking his mom's brand new iPhone X. Maybe you weren't paying attention back then so I'll give you a little recap: The phone was brand new, the mom had trained her phone only recently before and didn't realize that the more she unlocked her phone using Face ID the better it would learn her face, her son had a strong resemblance to her and, if I recall correctly, had also used her passcode to unlock the phone so inadvertently trained the phone that his face was the proper face. Not to mention that from the very start Apple had stated that Face ID wasn't recommended for children under 13. From Apple's website: "
For additional protection, Face ID allows only five unsuccessful match attempts before a passcode is required to obtain access to your iPhone. The probability of a false match is different for twins and siblings that look like you as well as among children under the age of 13, because their distinct facial features may not have fully developed."
Perhaps you could point to a more recent example of Face ID fooled into unlocking on a fully trained iPhone.
Comments
The second paragraph I wrote was speaking to Android today and what need the OEM's versions of face unlock fills, not Apple.
The loss of the home button also requires accommodation beyond the loss of TouchID, and that's another story of how well things work. I was a bit nervous about how to navigate without the home button when I first got my XS (coming from a 6, so a big step!), but the swipe up from the bottom works so consistently well, it has become second nature. The line at the bottom when first unlocking or when in an app was initially a great reminder of "where the home button went," and I now find the swipe (and the swipe/pause variant) much more intuitive than the home button.
But then they selected only 2D facial recognition systems in the Androids?
So, the compared a feature that the Androids didn't even have?
Revolutionary!
They should do a test of the iPhone X fingerprint recognition versus the Androids. I can see the heading 'Android consistently beats iPhone X fingerprint sensor '
The test was on facial recognition (which all of the phones listed claim to have), not 3D recognition. Having 3D facial recognition is a clear advantage of the iPhone X series. @TheDude121’s comment is incorrect, especially the fabricated headline. The other phone manufacturers say they have a facial recognition system on those phones. Apple does not say the iPhone X series has a fingerprint sensor.
You don't think the test would be more objective if they included phones with the same type system ... ?
I mean cherry picking is cool 'n stuff, but majority of technical people (ie not Android or iPhone fans) are going to pick up the rather obvious issue. But it'd be far more fair if they included an Android rival with a real facial recognition system like the iPhone
It'd probably make for better reading too ...
You are aware that Apple have hit the same issue as pretty much everyone else - Peak-SmartPhone (all the vendors are reaching this)? And that Apple already saw the writing on the wall which is the reason behind them branching heavily into new areas such as Wearables (the AirPods and the Apple Watch - both of which of which have been monumentally successful and exceptionally strong profit drivers).
Only someone who doesn't truly understand the company would make facile statements such as yours.
Please try to contain your hatred of the company and keep your statements factual.
https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/12/17/the-1-buffett-stock-id-buy-right-now.aspx
The recent downturn, however, has caused the value of his investment to drop by nearly $17 billion from its recent highs.
They're definitely slowing down with the competition. Good thing they've stopped dishing out the sales numbers, right? They're also losing market share to Huawei who have rocketed up in the last few years and dropped to the 3rd largest smartphone maker on the planet.
I'm not saying they're unsuccessful at all, but close to 30% share price drop, slow iPhone sales/demand and declining market share is something that should be addressed sooner, rather than later.
I didn't realize some Android phones were marketed with fake facial recognition systems and others were marketed with real facial recognition systems. I guess Forbes didn't either.
I agree with you - it's neither Apple nor Forbes' fault that it can be cracked. Nothing is 100% safe anyway - I mean even the Face ID on the Apple can be fooled by real people (forget fake heads!)(https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/11/14/video-shows-10-year-old-unlocking-mothers-iphone-x-via-face-id)
But there are some valid points to this test :
- The iPhone is around twice the price of the Androids tested according the article
- Androids with 3D Face (ie Huawei Mate 20 Pro or Xiaomi Mi 8 or Oppo Find X) are conveniently left off
- There is generally a setting to enable a 'blink' or direct site to open - no mention of it ... was it even on ?
I think any person interested in technology (ie a non bias) is going to look at this and think 'Hmmmmmm'. Obviously, I'd expect most this forum in particular to pat each on the back because this 'test' favours an iPhone.That’s absolutely fucking stupid. Facial recognition is the feature. The tech implemented to achieve the advertised feature is the responsibility of the manufacturer. As consumers, we can’t be expected to know or care what tech is used to do it. Clearly these knockoffs chose shitty tech. That’s on them. That’s the point of the article.
Go move your goalposts somewhere else.
Oh look, another newbie advocating worship at the Church of Market Share. Yawn. Market share is not king. Profit is king. Profit is the air corporations breathe. Market share is for people to brag about when they’re not making as much money as the profit leaders.
The Android tech has always worked as advertised. In fact, not only as 'advertised' but informed, as just turning the feature on gives you a reminder - in very clear language - that the feature is NOT a security feature. It is a convenience feature. That's why it cannot be used to authorise payments etc.
As a convenience biometric feature it is nice to have. All non iPhone X users could also benefit in exactly the same way but Apple chooses not to provide the feature for them.
* There are Android 3D Facial recognition systems - but they were left off the test - why?
* There is a setting that will prevent a photo or fake head entering - that was not turned not on - why?
* The phones chosen are half the price of the Phone - why?
On a real tech forum, a test like this laughed at. I mean a competitive test with out the competitors doesn't make the best reading. Though, the test makes you feel warm and fuzzy ... and that's all that matters. Personally I'd love to see a competitor in a comparative test.
This was in reply to the Warren Buffet comment - it had nothing to do with you and it was in context. But since you replied
You're right - market share is only one component and by itself, doesn't mean much. But if you add :
- Almost 30% / $250 billion knocked off market cap
- Suppliers complaining about slow sales
- Investors lowering forecasts warnings
- Apple deciding not to release sales figures
- I think November was the worst month since 2008?
Holistically (that means we add up all the points) it does a raise a warning bell or two - especially in the short space of time. Look, Apple is not in trouble as they have an army of rabbid, die hard fans (aka you) that will defend every single move they do. But it is something to keep an eye on.
EDIT : I love your comment about not making as much profit and profit leaders. This is your money at the end of the day ... and you're bragging about how much money this company is making off you ? It's bizarre - but I guess it does go to show that the research done on the iPhone / status symbol is correct. For iPhone users It's all about the money at the end of the day and what they've spent.
I mean, on one hand we have a fake giant head getting to an Android system using 2D facial recognition and with the settings switched off to make it less secure - and on the other hand, we have a 10 year old boy opening his moms (another gender, another generation) iPhone with revolutionary 3D IR dots blasting Face ID.
It's thought provoking, really.
If you think I'm a troll, then don't reply. I feel I'm adding to the conversion and giving my opinion.
If you do choose to reply, try have some facts and that way, we can have a meaningful conversation.
No comment on the leaving out of 3D systems or why they didn't have the security settings.
No comment on your unbreakable Apple system.
No comment on the finances of a company, other than how much money they make off you and your friends
It's odd you keep bringing up the 2D facial recognition on those phones. Aren't the heads of the actual live humans that would use them in 3D? What is the proper method of testing a 2D facial recognition system and how would an actual live human use that 2D facial recognition system to unlock their phone?
It's rather silly that you're bringing up that tired example of the boy unlocking his mom's brand new iPhone X. Maybe you weren't paying attention back then so I'll give you a little recap: The phone was brand new, the mom had trained her phone only recently before and didn't realize that the more she unlocked her phone using Face ID the better it would learn her face, her son had a strong resemblance to her and, if I recall correctly, had also used her passcode to unlock the phone so inadvertently trained the phone that his face was the proper face. Not to mention that from the very start Apple had stated that Face ID wasn't recommended for children under 13. From Apple's website: "
For additional protection, Face ID allows only five unsuccessful match attempts before a passcode is required to obtain access to your iPhone. The probability of a false match is different for twins and siblings that look like you as well as among children under the age of 13, because their distinct facial features may not have fully developed."
Perhaps you could point to a more recent example of Face ID fooled into unlocking on a fully trained iPhone.