[...] I remember how I longed for my first Mac, which at the original price was far out of reach (> 10k more than 30 years ago for a Mac 512ke including a line printer and a few other things) which eventually went over the table for half price. That was however, a game changing device at the time. And for me: I never regretted the hefty price tag for owning one of those marvels.
The difference between then and now is that the Mac of that time did things that simply weren't possible with a PC at any price. It was a few years before WYSIWYG layout became possible with Windows, and even then it wasn't as easy or reliable as what we got from the Mac.
Now there isn't much you can do with a Mac that you can't accomplish with less expensive tools. There are perks associated with using a Mac, but when we come right down to it they're not really deal breakers. While I may enjoy iTunes Match, AirPlay, iCloud Keychain, etc., none of them contribute much to my income earning potential. I used Adobe and Avid products with Windows for years, and when I switched to Mac the only notable difference was the window buttons were on the other side.
The higher cost was justified when the machines could do things the competition could not. These days it's more about the Apple experience than genuine, tangible, quantifiable advantages. That has value, and I expect to pay more to get it, but the question is HOW MUCH more? Mac prices now exceed what I can justify. My wife is using a seven-year-old machine because we just can't afford a current replacement (mostly due to the high cost of internal storage upgrades). I understand that Apple is prepared to sell fewer machines at high margins than a buttload at low profit, but I can't imagine the increasing number of broken camel backs being good for its bottom line.
There seems to be a prevailing sentiment in the comments here that Jeff Williams acknowledged prices being too high or some intent at Apple to bring them down. I didn't get that from his comments. In fact, most of what he said was defending and justifying current pricing. Where are people getting the idea that Apple intends to lower prices?
[...] I remember how I longed for my first Mac, which at the original price was far out of reach (> 10k more than 30 years ago for a Mac 512ke including a line printer and a few other things) which eventually went over the table for half price. That was however, a game changing device at the time. And for me: I never regretted the hefty price tag for owning one of those marvels.
The difference between then and now is that the Mac of that time did things that simply weren't possible with a PC at any price. It was a few years before WYSIWYG layout became possible with Windows, and even then it wasn't as easy or reliable as what we got from the Mac.
Now there isn't much you can do with a Mac that you can't accomplish with less expensive tools. There are perks associated with using a Mac, but when we come right down to it they're not really deal breakers. While I may enjoy iTunes Match, AirPlay, iCloud Keychain, etc., none of them contribute much to my income earning potential. I used Adobe and Avid products with Windows for years, and when I switched to Mac the only notable difference was the window buttons were on the other side.
The higher cost was justified when the machines could do things the competition could not. These days it's more about the Apple experience than genuine, tangible, quantifiable advantages. That has value, and I expect to pay more to get it, but the question is HOW MUCH more? Mac prices now exceed what I can justify. My wife is using a seven-year-old machine because we just can't afford a current replacement (mostly due to the high cost of internal storage upgrades). I understand that Apple is prepared to sell fewer machines at high margins than a buttload at low profit, but I can't imagine the increasing number of broken camel backs being good for its bottom line.
Maybe you didn’t read all through my comment, or I was bad at explaining; l tried to make exactly the point you made:
“Yet: there were many faithful customers for those expensive products: because it was a productivity tool and in this capacity worth its price. So maybe, by contrast, the iPhone is “simply” a gimmick. Nothing where it’s design/usability provides such a strong USP that it would justify the price.”
the Mac at time had the USP that made it worth the price. From a design and from a productivity POV. The iPhone itself doesn’t raise productivity (my claim; no hard data, but I don’t believe it) so there was a strong design/usability USP. Now there’s not much in terms of USP left (except of course for the ecosystem, but that doesn’t justify he product price itself).
I make a lot more money now than what I did a few years ago, but cannot stomach seeing a $129 wireless keyboard when I can buy the same thing for $40 at some other place.
I was really excited that Apple FINALLY offered a full-size wireless keyboard (i.e. with number pad), but like you, did a double-take when I saw the price. Still, that wasn't the part that led me to accuse Apple of a foul. It was Apple charging an extra 20% -- on top of the already very high price -- to get it in Space Grey. That gives the appearance of opportunistic gouging.
Are you sure that car options are not opportunistically priced? It is simply what people are willing to pay for. Or not.
There seems to be a prevailing sentiment in the comments here that Jeff Williams acknowledged prices being too high or some intent at Apple to bring them down. I didn't get that from his comments. In fact, most of what he said was defending and justifying current pricing. Where are people getting the idea that Apple intends to lower prices?
Maybe from his statements regarding emerging markets. Obviously, he doesn’t state anywhere that prices were too high, or how Apple plans to address the less stronger economies (second life products, older models, there are options)
I make a lot more money now than what I did a few years ago, but cannot stomach seeing a $129 wireless keyboard when I can buy the same thing for $40 at some other place.
I was really excited that Apple FINALLY offered a full-size wireless keyboard (i.e. with number pad), but like you, did a double-take when I saw the price. Still, that wasn't the part that led me to accuse Apple of a foul. It was Apple charging an extra 20% -- on top of the already very high price -- to get it in Space Grey. That gives the appearance of opportunistic gouging.
Are you sure that car options are not opportunistically priced? It is simply what people are willing to pay for. Or not.
I'm not sure what cars have to do with the price of Apple products, unless you're suggesting the auto industry's despicable model is one you think Apple should adopt. If so, I wish you and the rest of the faithful good luck as I fold up my wallet and walk away. If not, what's your point?
It’s always the same story. Our puny minds can’t comprehend the expenses Apple has. Well, every company has expenses that are not materials cost. Is that really the customer’s burden to bear? I think what customers want is for some of that past R&D to start to amortize, and result in stable product lines. This unpredictable continuous rise in prices for no compelling reason has everyone concerned.
Meanwhile, our puny minds can comprehend the balance sheet, and profit is obscene. The same old story doesn’t fly.
Dont get get me wrong I think it’s perfectly fine for Apple to have a wide line of iPhone, but they’ve pushed the envelope on what a flagship model can cost and they’re not doing anything they weren’t doing 5 years ago when a flagship iPhone was $650.
It’s kind of like when a car dealer tries to add a service fee for advertising.
Yeah, but it's the same problem for all industries. Have you ever noticed that every time someone farts in the middle east, gas stations are out there changing the sign ten minutes later? Didn't they already buy that gas in the ground? Maybe I don't understand the oil to the gas pump expense, but it happens. Every year it's the same story, faster processor, better camera, and we lemmings go out and get one. This made sense when they first came out cause every phone was miles above the previous one. No so much anymore. I managed to wait from the 6 to the xs, four years. I'll probably do the same this time. that's two phones in 8 years instead of 6 phones in 6 years. Vote with your wallet.
That just makes the iPhone price worth it. I've noticed lately people are holding onto their iPhones for 4 years.
Meanwhile people who buy cheap knockoffs are exchanging them every few months. I know someone who has bought 2 this year already! At $100-$200 it adds up.
LOL, is he really!!! This is coming from an ex apple customer and a Steve Jobs fan. You people have a choice and you could get a phone or computer that will do anything that apple promises to do and much more for literally one tenth the price. They even have the worst customer service, I sent my old imac to be fixed at their stores and due to several wrong diagnosis so they can start charge me to replace the most expensive part without actually listening to me or acknowledging the real problem, they ended up stealing it because I was late a week for picking it up and told me they threw it in the trash to be recycled and I lost $2500 and a life time of memories and hard work.
That first line gave away the rest of your post.
Android will never copy privacy. Apple is #1 in customer satisfaction.
It’s always the same story. Our puny minds can’t comprehend the expenses Apple has. Well, every company has expenses that are not materials cost. Is that really the customer’s burden to bear? ... they’re not doing anything they weren’t doing 5 years ago when a flagship iPhone was $650.
Yes, those are costs that customers must bear, otherwise the company is running below-cost, essentially losing money.
There are far more costs beyond just $350 worth of physical parts for an iPhone. Think about all the man-hours in every department, plus the cost of supporting devices after they sell. The costs that Apple must bear are astronomical! It's amazing they are reporting a profit year after year, if you ask me.
People expect to get wage increases, including Apple employees. But the product we are buying can't go up in price?
Hey, I'm not rich. I'd love Apple products be cheaper, and I do think they are missing the mark some on some (ie. an affordable Mac mini), but I'm not going to claim that Apple is screwing their customers for no reason. They do have enormous costs to cover, and they need to have money in the bank to keep investing into their products and services. Yes, they need to work harder to bring costs down. And Apple has acknowledged that. Let's keep the pressure on them, but let's also stay realistic about it.
1) There always were more costs than the parts, thats been true from the start. 2) Wage increases haven't been anything like the the increases in prices. 3) They probably do have enormous costs though, and I think I a lot of it is in products ( like the car) that will never see the light of day, and shouldn't have been started.
It’s always the same story. Our puny minds can’t comprehend the expenses Apple has. Well, every company has expenses that are not materials cost. Is that really the customer’s burden to bear? I think what customers want is for some of that past R&D to start to amortize, and result in stable product lines. This unpredictable continuous rise in prices for no compelling reason has everyone concerned.
Meanwhile, our puny minds can comprehend the balance sheet, and profit is obscene. The same old story doesn’t fly.
Dont get get me wrong I think it’s perfectly fine for Apple to have a wide line of iPhone, but they’ve pushed the envelope on what a flagship model can cost and they’re not doing anything they weren’t doing 5 years ago when a flagship iPhone was $650.
It’s kind of like when a car dealer tries to add a service fee for advertising.
Yeah, but it's the same problem for all industries. Have you ever noticed that every time someone farts in the middle east, gas stations are out there changing the sign ten minutes later? Didn't they already buy that gas in the ground? Maybe I don't understand the oil to the gas pump expense, but it happens. Every year it's the same story, faster processor, better camera, and we lemmings go out and get one. This made sense when they first came out cause every phone was miles above the previous one. No so much anymore. I managed to wait from the 6 to the xs, four years. I'll probably do the same this time. that's two phones in 8 years instead of 6 phones in 6 years. Vote with your wallet.
That just makes the iPhone price worth it. I've noticed lately people are holding onto their iPhones for 4 years.
Meanwhile people who buy cheap knockoffs are exchanging them every few months. I know someone who has bought 2 this year already! At $100-$200 it adds up.
Are you serious that EACH and EVERY Android phone buyer in this world is changing his/her phone every few months? If that is what you think, better come out of that wild dream immediately.
For the record, I am currently owing an Android phone (which I bought for ~$200 equivalent in India in Feb-2017) for last 2 years WITHOUT even a single problem EVER and planning to retain it for another year. Go figure.
Let me help translate the C-Level speak.
"Let them eat cake"
Apple has gone very far afield from a company I could respect.
Dishonest. One standard for this market, one for that. Hide behind 'Gotta follow the local laws' Even Google didn't stoop to such a story. They left China rather than give control to the Chinese government. Apple?
Over priced. What exactly would it be that would get me to pay a premium for a (i)Mac (Mini)? Cutting edge technology? Nope, not in there. Best build quality? Not better than others. Best customer service? Hardly, have you been to a 'Genius' appointment lately?
Arrogant. From censorship as the type of apps they will allow, to their 'But we're Apple, we need more money' stance, just arrogant.
I'm sure they won't miss my money when I swap my phone out. I will miss my Watch, but I tend to keep true to what I believe. Something sorely lacking in Apple, consumers too for that matter. Always a rationale to continue to do things you shouldn't.
I wouldn't mind paying a high price for Macs if they didn't suck. When people tell you your pricing is high they are essentially saying your product is lacking in the features they expect at that price. Apple is fantastic about making money but the company is adrift on the foundation of computer science. Overcoming and fixing issues. Stop trying to sell lifestyle crap. Get back to the philosophy of the founders ...make a change rather than collecting change.
I make a lot more money now than what I did a few years ago, but cannot stomach seeing a $129 wireless keyboard when I can buy the same thing for $40 at some other place.
I was really excited that Apple FINALLY offered a full-size wireless keyboard (i.e. with number pad), but like you, did a double-take when I saw the price. Still, that wasn't the part that led me to accuse Apple of a foul. It was Apple charging an extra 20% -- on top of the already very high price -- to get it in Space Grey. That gives the appearance of opportunistic gouging.
Are you sure that car options are not opportunistically priced? It is simply what people are willing to pay for. Or not.
I'm not sure what cars have to do with the price of Apple products, unless you're suggesting the auto industry's despicable model is one you think Apple should adopt. If so, I wish you and the rest of the faithful good luck as I fold up my wallet and walk away. If not, what's your point?
The point being Apple is neither worse nor better than any other company who’s goal it is to earn money. Well IMO actually better, since they do not appear to sell my data. The “rip-off” - if any - can easily be avoided by not paying the price for the device.
I can’t even read more than a few of these posts. Such entitled whiners...I’m certain most of you have never launched a retail product before, and are completely ignorant to costs and challenges of doing so. The prices have gone up on the top tier products which happen to do more, while lower tier options still exist. But nope, you feel entitled to top tier products at the entry level prices. Pathetic. And yes the Mac mini went up, but it’s been completely refitted with non mobile hardware and a fast bus, thus doing much more...and considering inflation from when it launched almost 15 years ago (!), it was only raised a minimal amount in exchange for that hardware.
Meanwhile, cars get more expensive every single year, this despite the internal combustion engine being a very old idea of the same basic components, with only newer technology added on top...tech which you expect to get cheaper in computing but do not question its rise in cars. Hmmm.
I can’t even read more than a few of these posts. Such entitled whiners...I’m certain most of you have never launched a retail product before, and are completely ignorant to costs and challenges of doing so. The prices have gone up on the top tier products which happen to do more, while lower tier options still exist. But nope, you feel entitled to top tier products at the entry level prices. Pathetic. And yes the Mac mini went up, but it’s been completely refitted with non mobile hardware and a fast bus, thus doing much more...and considering inflation from when it launched almost 15 years ago (!), it was only raised a minimal amount in exchange for that hardware.
Meanwhile, cars get more expensive every single year, this despite the internal combustion engine being a very old idea of the same basic components, with only newer technology added on top...tech which you expect to get cheaper in computing but do not question its rise in cars. Hmmm.
1) stupid argument - we don't have to have launch a retail product to complain about price. Otherwise we could never complain about price for anything unless we individually released an entire product, which of course isn't what most people do. 2) The top tier argument is slightly better but the question isn't just he higher level iPhone but price gauging throughout the line, and the Mac line etc. Certain products are reasonably priced though - the iPad mini, the AirPods etc. 3) very few things get more expensive at the rate of iPhones over the last while, and in fact cars are cheaper than they ever were relative to wages.
Its funny that Apple gets people who defend it when it doesn't defend itself.
I’m in the creative business. I’m a musician, music teacher and a photographer. I also do computer graphics as a sort of hobby of mine.
Yesterday I was playing around with my 2nd gen iPad Pro and opened up Garageband. I rarely use it because I haven’t done much recording stuff lately. I got notifications about new soundpacks from Apple and started listening to the previews. Those demo songs sounded truly awesome and I was again blown away at how good the speakers sounded on the iPad. There were a ton of new soundpacks and I downloaded them all. Because why not? They were free! Like Garageband. It made me consider recording and composing stuff on the iPad again. Garageband has a ton of really great features and you can even combine sounds from different applications and do all sorts of cool stuff. Really high quality and easy to get started stuff. It is all over iOS. All over the hardware. I use my iPad daily to do most of my work and every day it is a delight. The quality and thought that goes into Apple products really shines through. I know I paid for it all in the price of the product but the device is like an endless chest of creative wonders. If that even makes sense. I feel like a kid in the candy store that has all of the flavours to choose from.
There is so much else ”free” stuff from Apple like Pages, Numbers, Keynote and whatnot. Apple devices truly are for the creative people. The technology gets out of the way of getting stuff done. This and everything else is what you pay for in an Apple product. What other vendor has this??
Never have I once regretted spending over 1300€ for my iPad Pro and Apple Pencil. There is something really powerful in these products that goes way beyond the surface. You can’t see the value by estimating the cost of the components or comparing specsheets. It is not in the numbers. It really takes effort to realize what makes Apple products so great. The lazy people keep comparing specs and keep believing in conspiracy theories. It is the easy way of thinking. Someone once said that quality is hard to define but you know when you have it.
I’m starting to think there isn’t going to be a new iMac.
Maybe just variations of modules with their display.
Maybe the all-in-one experience is over to some degree.
Comments
Now there isn't much you can do with a Mac that you can't accomplish with less expensive tools. There are perks associated with using a Mac, but when we come right down to it they're not really deal breakers. While I may enjoy iTunes Match, AirPlay, iCloud Keychain, etc., none of them contribute much to my income earning potential. I used Adobe and Avid products with Windows for years, and when I switched to Mac the only notable difference was the window buttons were on the other side.
The higher cost was justified when the machines could do things the competition could not. These days it's more about the Apple experience than genuine, tangible, quantifiable advantages. That has value, and I expect to pay more to get it, but the question is HOW MUCH more? Mac prices now exceed what I can justify. My wife is using a seven-year-old machine because we just can't afford a current replacement (mostly due to the high cost of internal storage upgrades). I understand that Apple is prepared to sell fewer machines at high margins than a buttload at low profit, but I can't imagine the increasing number of broken camel backs being good for its bottom line.
“Yet: there were many faithful customers for those expensive products: because it was a productivity tool and in this capacity worth its price. So maybe, by contrast, the iPhone is “simply” a gimmick. Nothing where it’s design/usability provides such a strong USP that it would justify the price.”
the Mac at time had the USP that made it worth the price. From a design and from a productivity POV. The iPhone itself doesn’t raise productivity (my claim; no hard data, but I don’t believe it) so there was a strong design/usability USP. Now there’s not much in terms of USP left (except of course for the ecosystem, but that doesn’t justify he product price itself).
That just makes the iPhone price worth it. I've noticed lately people are holding onto their iPhones for 4 years.
Meanwhile people who buy cheap knockoffs are exchanging them every few months. I know someone who has bought 2 this year already! At $100-$200 it adds up.
That first line gave away the rest of your post.
Android will never copy privacy. Apple is #1 in customer satisfaction.
Be gone.
Things cost money: Designing, testing, manufacturing, shipping, etc.
2) Wage increases haven't been anything like the the increases in prices.
3) They probably do have enormous costs though, and I think I a lot of it is in products ( like the car) that will never see the light of day, and shouldn't have been started.
Are you serious that EACH and EVERY Android phone buyer in this world is changing his/her phone every few months? If that is what you think, better come out of that wild dream immediately.
For the record, I am currently owing an Android phone (which I bought for ~$200 equivalent in India in Feb-2017) for last 2 years WITHOUT even a single problem EVER and planning to retain it for another year. Go figure.
Well IMO actually better, since they do not appear to sell my data. The “rip-off” - if any - can easily be avoided by not paying the price for the device.
Meanwhile, cars get more expensive every single year, this despite the internal combustion engine being a very old idea of the same basic components, with only newer technology added on top...tech which you expect to get cheaper in computing but do not question its rise in cars. Hmmm.
2) The top tier argument is slightly better but the question isn't just he higher level iPhone but price gauging throughout the line, and the Mac line etc. Certain products are reasonably priced though - the iPad mini, the AirPods etc.
3) very few things get more expensive at the rate of iPhones over the last while, and in fact cars are cheaper than they ever were relative to wages.
Its funny that Apple gets people who defend it when it doesn't defend itself.
Yesterday I was playing around with my 2nd gen iPad Pro and opened up Garageband. I rarely use it because I haven’t done much recording stuff lately. I got notifications about new soundpacks from Apple and started listening to the previews. Those demo songs sounded truly awesome and I was again blown away at how good the speakers sounded on the iPad. There were a ton of new soundpacks and I downloaded them all. Because why not? They were free! Like Garageband. It made me consider recording and composing stuff on the iPad again. Garageband has a ton of really great features and you can even combine sounds from different applications and do all sorts of cool stuff. Really high quality and easy to get started stuff. It is all over iOS. All over the hardware. I use my iPad daily to do most of my work and every day it is a delight. The quality and thought that goes into Apple products really shines through. I know I paid for it all in the price of the product but the device is like an endless chest of creative wonders. If that even makes sense. I feel like a kid in the candy store that has all of the flavours to choose from.
There is so much else ”free” stuff from Apple like Pages, Numbers, Keynote and whatnot. Apple devices truly are for the creative people. The technology gets out of the way of getting stuff done. This and everything else is what you pay for in an Apple product. What other vendor has this??
Never have I once regretted spending over 1300€ for my iPad Pro and Apple Pencil. There is something really powerful in these products that goes way beyond the surface. You can’t see the value by estimating the cost of the components or comparing specsheets. It is not in the numbers. It really takes effort to realize what makes Apple products so great. The lazy people keep comparing specs and keep believing in conspiracy theories. It is the easy way of thinking. Someone once said that quality is hard to define but you know when you have it.