Spotify says Apple a 'monopolist' in escalating war of words

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  • Reply 21 of 146
    ElCapitan said:
    HenryDJP said:
    ... but Spotify should be ashamed of their actions. 
    They will probably be so ashamed they pull their app from the App store, together with Amazon Prime, HBO, Netflix and many others. Leaving Apple customers with one, curated,  left leaning, family centric offering from – Apple. 

    I hope you realize that Apple's global marketshare is less than 10% in any category, so good luck with that strategy in the long run. 
    I understand you hate Apple. Plainly obvious. What you purposely are ignoring is that Apple is amongst the biggest companies in the world. There's only two major cellular platforms, iOS and Android. Spotify is not in the position to pull away from Apple. If they were they wouldn't be crying like they are trying to get the world to side with them against Apple. Truth is Spotify is upset because Apple has much more to offer their customers and Spotify is simply a music distribution service. Spotify knows it's simply a matter of time and they will no longer be relevant as many other music streaming services have failed. This whining from Spotify is coming from the fact that Apple has a keynote coming up with major updates to their streaming services, and Spotify feels threatened. Sorry if that hurts you. 
    kruegdudeAppleExposed
  • Reply 22 of 146
    Abalos65 said:
    urahara said:
    So what solution does Spotify offers?
    And how they want to pay for selling their product through App Store?

    I like Spotify app more than Apple's.
    but seriously, regarding this I am on the Apple's side. 
    I don't know what Spotify would offer, however I personally do not find it fair that Spotify cannot mention that you could subscribe to Premium via the web and would like Apple to allow this. 
    You should take Business 101. Business isn't about being fair. Business is Business, period. Yeah, so luring iOS customers out of the app and onto the Spotify website to sign up for a paid subscription in order to bypass Apple is "fair" huh? It's more like underhanded and unprofessional of Spotify. 
    AppleExposedchaickaRadcapper
  • Reply 23 of 146
    uraharaurahara Posts: 313member
    tehabe said:
    When it comes to distribution of applications for iOS Apple is a monopolist. You can't buy applications anywhere else. On the other hand, Spotify is not a monopolist, there are many music streaming services on the market, including Apple Music who are competing with Spotify. And currently i it is doubtful if you could charge more than $10 per month for music streaming.
    When it comes to sell Big Mac in the McDonalds, it is a monopolist. By your logic.
    By 'correct' logic - McDonalds is the owner. Apple is the owner of their platform. It has absolutely nothing to do with monopoly. 
    chiawilliamlondonchaicka
  • Reply 24 of 146
    uraharaurahara Posts: 313member
    This is why i'm going to vote for elizabeth warren, to break up these big greedy companies like apple
    Yep. Some people voted for Trump too.
    You are either not a very good at trolling, or you are just not very good at critical thinking.
    macxpress
  • Reply 25 of 146
    tehabetehabe Posts: 19member
    urahara said:
    tehabe said:
    When it comes to distribution of applications for iOS Apple is a monopolist. You can't buy applications anywhere else. On the other hand, Spotify is not a monopolist, there are many music streaming services on the market, including Apple Music who are competing with Spotify. And currently i it is doubtful if you could charge more than $10 per month for music streaming.
    When it comes to sell Big Mac in the McDonalds, it is a monopolist. By your logic.
    By 'correct' logic - McDonalds is the owner. Apple is the owner of their platform. It has absolutely nothing to do with monopoly. 
    You didn't get my point. There is no other way for Spotify to get there application on an iOS device than Apple's App Store. That is the monopoly part. This is also true for the Play Store on Android. Even though you could side load applications on Android, it is off by default and not recommended, so the Play Store is the only store for applications on Android and therefor a monopoly.

    McDonald's is not a monopoly because there are other fast food chains and restaurants on the market. it would be different for example, if McDonald's had an exclusive contract with a mall and would be the only store on the food court.
  • Reply 26 of 146
    HenryDJP said:
    Abalos65 said:
    urahara said:
    So what solution does Spotify offers?
    And how they want to pay for selling their product through App Store?

    I like Spotify app more than Apple's.
    but seriously, regarding this I am on the Apple's side. 
    I don't know what Spotify would offer, however I personally do not find it fair that Spotify cannot mention that you could subscribe to Premium via the web and would like Apple to allow this. 
    You should take Business 101. Business isn't about being fair. Business is Business, period. Yeah, so luring iOS customers out of the app and onto the Spotify website to sign up for a paid subscription in order to bypass Apple is "fair" huh? It's more like underhanded and unprofessional of Spotify. 
    Sorry, but just being snarky and saying that business is business is a pretty weak argument. There are also rules and regulations, it is not a free for all, and we will see if the regulators of the EU will take this up. What exactly is the problem with Spotify mentioning that signing up can be done on their website? The subscriptions from the website aren't the problem for Apple, only the mentioning of it in the app, why?
    edited March 16
  • Reply 27 of 146
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 31,504member
    They must be really close to being unable to make payroll.
    cgWerks
  • Reply 28 of 146
    Well, the argument cuts both ways... I had a (paid) Dropbox account, years ago, when the only alternatives were GoogleDrive, which I distrust, and OneDrive. But as an Apple customer, as soon as iCloud Drive was in good enough shape, I've changed suppliers. Trouble is, it is a lot easier to keep within Apple services, particularly if you have Macs and iDevices. But that is neither Apple's fault, nor ill intent. That's consumer trust and convenience.
    chaicka
  • Reply 29 of 146
    supadav03supadav03 Posts: 461member
    I don’t know. I kind of think of it like a grocery store. If I want to sell my goods at a grocery store I have to pay. I have to pay slotting fees, pay-to-stay fees and display fees, etc. All the while the grocery store can sell their own brand of goods for less, right alongside mine, without paying the same fees. While they don’t pay the same fees as me, they have other cost associated with running the store that I don’t incure. Pretty reasonable business model that’s used all over. Idk...doesn’t seem unfair to me. 

    If I don’t like the fees Publix charges to sell in their stores I can always sell my stuff at Winn-Dixie instead, but if I want access to Publix customers, I have to pay what they are asking. Now, Publix should want my product on their shelves so I would expect some consessions on their end as well. To that point, I do think Apple should continue to lower IAP cut. Think dropping the reoccurring to 15% was a nice move in that direction. 
    edited March 16 SpamSandwichchaicka
  • Reply 30 of 146
    larryjwlarryjw Posts: 426member
    tehabe said:
    When it comes to distribution of applications for iOS Apple is a monopolist. You can't buy applications anywhere else. On the other hand, Spotify is not a monopolist, there are many music streaming services on the market, including Apple Music who are competing with Spotify. And currently i it is doubtful if you could charge more than $10 per month for music streaming.
    Apple is restrictive for iOS apps, but not for MacOS apps. The argument for restricting iOS is security and performance and privacy. The iOS App Store is not just online retail. In theory Apple is setting and enforcing standards which otherwise can't be enforced in the OS and hardware. When the hardware becomes solid enough to sandbox bad software, then I think Apple's restrictions could be seen are unacceptable. 

    edited March 16
  • Reply 31 of 146
    supadav03 said:
    I don’t know. I kind of think of it like a grocery store. If I want to sell my goods at a grocery store I have to pay. I have to pay slotting fees, pay-to-stay fees and display fees, etc. All the while the grocery store can sell their own brand of goods for less, right alongside mine, without paying the same fees. While they don’t pay the same fees as me, they have other cost associated with running the store that I don’t incure. Pretty reasonable business model that’s used all over. Idk...doesn’t seem unfair to me. 
    The drawback of analogies is that they do not always fit perfectly. How would the fact that iPhone users can only access the App Store fit into your analogy? Or Spotify not being allowed to mention the fact that they have set up their own 'store' on their own website?
  • Reply 32 of 146
    uraharaurahara Posts: 313member
    Abalos65 said:
    supadav03 said:
    I don’t know. I kind of think of it like a grocery store. If I want to sell my goods at a grocery store I have to pay. I have to pay slotting fees, pay-to-stay fees and display fees, etc. All the while the grocery store can sell their own brand of goods for less, right alongside mine, without paying the same fees. While they don’t pay the same fees as me, they have other cost associated with running the store that I don’t incure. Pretty reasonable business model that’s used all over. Idk...doesn’t seem unfair to me. 
    The drawback of analogies is that they do not always fit perfectly. How would the fact that iPhone users can only access the App Store fit into your analogy? Or Spotify not being allowed to mention the fact that they have set up their own 'store' on their own website?
    Which stores can Android users access to download the apps?
  • Reply 33 of 146
    uraharaurahara Posts: 313member
    tehabe said:
    urahara said:
    tehabe said:
    When it comes to distribution of applications for iOS Apple is a monopolist. You can't buy applications anywhere else. On the other hand, Spotify is not a monopolist, there are many music streaming services on the market, including Apple Music who are competing with Spotify. And currently i it is doubtful if you could charge more than $10 per month for music streaming.
    When it comes to sell Big Mac in the McDonalds, it is a monopolist. By your logic.
    By 'correct' logic - McDonalds is the owner. Apple is the owner of their platform. It has absolutely nothing to do with monopoly. 
    You didn't get my point. There is no other way for Spotify to get there application on an iOS device than Apple's App Store. That is the monopoly part. This is also true for the Play Store on Android. Even though you could side load applications on Android, it is off by default and not recommended, so the Play Store is the only store for applications on Android and therefor a monopoly.

    McDonald's is not a monopoly because there are other fast food chains and restaurants on the market. it would be different for example, if McDonald's had an exclusive contract with a mall and would be the only store on the food court.
    Some one has given already the example with the grocery store. If you want to sell your good sat grocery store you pay the slot fees. And there is no other way for your to sell in this store. The store is the monopolist? No. They are the owners.
    You are confusing the terms.
    SpamSandwichradarthekatcgWerkschaicka
  • Reply 34 of 146
    ElCapitanElCapitan Posts: 285member
    HenryDJP said:
    ElCapitan said:
    HenryDJP said:
    ... but Spotify should be ashamed of their actions. 
    They will probably be so ashamed they pull their app from the App store, together with Amazon Prime, HBO, Netflix and many others. Leaving Apple customers with one, curated,  left leaning, family centric offering from – Apple. 

    I hope you realize that Apple's global marketshare is less than 10% in any category, so good luck with that strategy in the long run. 
    I understand you hate Apple. Plainly obvious. What you purposely are ignoring is that Apple is amongst the biggest companies in the world. There's only two major cellular platforms, iOS and Android. Spotify is not in the position to pull away from Apple. If they were they wouldn't be crying like they are trying to get the world to side with them against Apple. Truth is Spotify is upset because Apple has much more to offer their customers and Spotify is simply a music distribution service. Spotify knows it's simply a matter of time and they will no longer be relevant as many other music streaming services have failed. This whining from Spotify is coming from the fact that Apple has a keynote coming up with major updates to their streaming services, and Spotify feels threatened. Sorry if that hurts you. 
    Does not hurt me at all. 

    Chances are the new services will be US only, with a couple other locations thrown in the mix.

    Fact is that when it comes to distribution of media in general, the minute you step out of the US, there are so many complicated distribution rights and deals that nobody have managed to unify them into one service. So even if Apple is big on hardware, chances are they will struggle in multiple markets when it comes to distribution of media – even music. I am not saying that Spotify has a firm standing overall, but they have distribution rights and artists not found in Apple Music in Europe.  Removing Spotify will just make iOS (even) less attractive in the same markets where Android dominates. 
    chaicka
  • Reply 35 of 146
    urahara said:
    Abalos65 said:
    supadav03 said:
    I don’t know. I kind of think of it like a grocery store. If I want to sell my goods at a grocery store I have to pay. I have to pay slotting fees, pay-to-stay fees and display fees, etc. All the while the grocery store can sell their own brand of goods for less, right alongside mine, without paying the same fees. While they don’t pay the same fees as me, they have other cost associated with running the store that I don’t incure. Pretty reasonable business model that’s used all over. Idk...doesn’t seem unfair to me. 
    The drawback of analogies is that they do not always fit perfectly. How would the fact that iPhone users can only access the App Store fit into your analogy? Or Spotify not being allowed to mention the fact that they have set up their own 'store' on their own website?
    Which stores can Android users access to download the apps?
    Play Store, Amazon app store, Samsung app store, F-Droid and any application can be downloaded via a browser (see ApkMirror for example or Fortnite), which also means many online app stores
    edited March 16 avon b7
  • Reply 36 of 146
    jkichlinejkichline Posts: 1,336member
    bwik said:

    Spotify makes an interesting argument.  If HBO Now was downloaded from Apple (a fairly small service by Apple), does it mean Apple collects 30% of revenue for the first year and 15% thereafter?  If so, that seems excessive, just for providing a download portal to its users.  Apple could then compete with HBO on a lower cost structure and do its own shows, which apparently it is doing.  Netflix, same?  How about Amazon Prime revenue? 

    There is precedent to suggest that Apple can't simply charge a 30% toll on all the revenue producing activities that happen across iOS.  Apple has some arguments that it created the platform.  The literature on railroad competition provides many examples of monopolistic pricing that had to be made illegal.  Usually the solution is to remove the barrier to entry, or if that is impractical (as building totally duplicate rail lines is somewhat impractical), to allow multiple carriers (= other App Stores) on the platform.

    Spotify may be right that the current status quo on iOS App Store may be illegal.  Just my opinion as a hobbyist on these topics, not a professional.

    15% may seem high, until you start accounting for things like credit card processing, building a subscription service with user accounts, customer service staff for processing refunds, the marketing advantage of the App Store “storefront”, handling of international taxes and taxes in general. 15% is a steal. Now 30% a year wouldn’t be of course and Apple charges that once which is fair as a “finders fee”. 15% is the typical affiliate income anyway.

    Why doesn’t Spotify make their own smart speaker or media player? My guess is that they will quickly find they can’t compete. Apple
    is giving app developers a chance to become something and give them a big opportunity. Apple is not responsible for the viability of your business model. You knew the game and you choose to play.
    edited March 16 chaicka
  • Reply 37 of 146
    tehabetehabe Posts: 19member
    urahara said:
    tehabe said:
    urahara said:
    tehabe said:
    When it comes to distribution of applications for iOS Apple is a monopolist. You can't buy applications anywhere else. On the other hand, Spotify is not a monopolist, there are many music streaming services on the market, including Apple Music who are competing with Spotify. And currently i it is doubtful if you could charge more than $10 per month for music streaming.
    When it comes to sell Big Mac in the McDonalds, it is a monopolist. By your logic.
    By 'correct' logic - McDonalds is the owner. Apple is the owner of their platform. It has absolutely nothing to do with monopoly. 
    You didn't get my point. There is no other way for Spotify to get there application on an iOS device than Apple's App Store. That is the monopoly part. This is also true for the Play Store on Android. Even though you could side load applications on Android, it is off by default and not recommended, so the Play Store is the only store for applications on Android and therefor a monopoly.

    McDonald's is not a monopoly because there are other fast food chains and restaurants on the market. it would be different for example, if McDonald's had an exclusive contract with a mall and would be the only store on the food court.
    Some one has given already the example with the grocery store. If you want to sell your good sat grocery store you pay the slot fees. And there is no other way for your to sell in this store. The store is the monopolist? No. They are the owners.
    You are confusing the terms.
    The example is wrong. Because the grocery store is not the only one in the area. The App Store is the only app store on iOS. Also different on the Mac, the Mac App Store is not the only way to sell software to Mac users, therefore the Mac App Store is not a monopoly. It is not hard to understand.

    Btw, who the owner of the store is, is unimportant. Completely beside the point.
    edited March 16 ElCapitanwilliamlondon
  • Reply 38 of 146
    supadav03supadav03 Posts: 461member
    Abalos65 said:
    supadav03 said:
    I don’t know. I kind of think of it like a grocery store. If I want to sell my goods at a grocery store I have to pay. I have to pay slotting fees, pay-to-stay fees and display fees, etc. All the while the grocery store can sell their own brand of goods for less, right alongside mine, without paying the same fees. While they don’t pay the same fees as me, they have other cost associated with running the store that I don’t incure. Pretty reasonable business model that’s used all over. Idk...doesn’t seem unfair to me. 
    The drawback of analogies is that they do not always fit perfectly. How would the fact that iPhone users can only access the App Store fit into your analogy? Or Spotify not being allowed to mention the fact that they have set up their own 'store' on their own website?
    Yeah, not perfect parallels so it really doesn’t address your first question. As for Spotify not being allowed to mention their own store: Can I, as Entenmann’s, be mad at Publix if they don’t let me advertise in their store that my donuts can be bought at the Entenmann’s store for less? No. I’m paying for access to their customer base who may not know my product exist if not for being on their store shelf. So to try and direct those customers away from their store to mine so I can make more profit seems more unfair than them telling me I can’t advertise like that in their stores. 


    Side comment to address iPhone users only accessing App Store - Playstation users can only access PSN. Is it right that if I own a Playstation I’m forced to use PSN for digital content? Why can’t I access Xbox Live Market Place or Nintendo eShop? Because if you choose the product (iPhone, Playstation) you do so knowing that you are also buying into their ecosystem and if you don’t like that, that you buy an Xbox or Switch. 
    edited March 16 radarthekatrainmaker
  • Reply 39 of 146
    tehabetehabe Posts: 19member
    Abalos65 said:
    urahara said:
    Abalos65 said:
    supadav03 said:
    I don’t know. I kind of think of it like a grocery store. If I want to sell my goods at a grocery store I have to pay. I have to pay slotting fees, pay-to-stay fees and display fees, etc. All the while the grocery store can sell their own brand of goods for less, right alongside mine, without paying the same fees. While they don’t pay the same fees as me, they have other cost associated with running the store that I don’t incure. Pretty reasonable business model that’s used all over. Idk...doesn’t seem unfair to me. 
    The drawback of analogies is that they do not always fit perfectly. How would the fact that iPhone users can only access the App Store fit into your analogy? Or Spotify not being allowed to mention the fact that they have set up their own 'store' on their own website?
    Which stores can Android users access to download the apps?
    Play Store, Amazon app store, Samsung app store, F-Droid and any application can be downloaded via a browser (see ApkMirror for example or Fortnite), which also means many online app stores
    In theory there are many but in most cases it is only one, the Play Store isn't available on Amazon devices, the Samsung one is not available on Pixel devices. And side loading doesn't work by default. The practical consequence is, that the store for applications is essentially a monopoly you have to use, if you want to sell/offer your application to the consumer of that device. The grocery example therefor wrong.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 40 of 146
    tehabe said:
    urahara said:
    tehabe said:
    urahara said:
    tehabe said:
    When it comes to distribution of applications for iOS Apple is a monopolist. You can't buy applications anywhere else. On the other hand, Spotify is not a monopolist, there are many music streaming services on the market, including Apple Music who are competing with Spotify. And currently i it is doubtful if you could charge more than $10 per month for music streaming.
    When it comes to sell Big Mac in the McDonalds, it is a monopolist. By your logic.
    By 'correct' logic - McDonalds is the owner. Apple is the owner of their platform. It has absolutely nothing to do with monopoly. 
    You didn't get my point. There is no other way for Spotify to get there application on an iOS device than Apple's App Store. That is the monopoly part. This is also true for the Play Store on Android. Even though you could side load applications on Android, it is off by default and not recommended, so the Play Store is the only store for applications on Android and therefor a monopoly.

    McDonald's is not a monopoly because there are other fast food chains and restaurants on the market. it would be different for example, if McDonald's had an exclusive contract with a mall and would be the only store on the food court.
    Some one has given already the example with the grocery store. If you want to sell your good sat grocery store you pay the slot fees. And there is no other way for your to sell in this store. The store is the monopolist? No. They are the owners.
    You are confusing the terms.
    The example is wrong. Because the grocery store is not the only one in the area. The App Store is the only app store on iOS. Also different on the Mac, the Mac App Store is not the only way to sell software to Mac users, therefore the Mac App Store is not a monopoly. It is not hard to understand.

    Btw, who the owner of the store is, is unimportant. Completely beside the point.
    As I said it a reply to someone else? What about video game marketplaces? Should Playstation be forced to allow access to Xbox live on their hardware? No.

    Plus, this kind of strays from the issue anyways. It’s not customers complaining they can only access Spotify via App Store, it’s the seller complaining they can’t direct customers away from the App Store. So I’m not sure why “being the only store” matters when that’s where customers want to shop. We made that choice when we purchase Apple hardware. 
    chiaradarthekatchaicka
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