What the heck are you talking about? I didn't "scam" anyone. Stop changing the narrative to suit your agenda. I have a perfect credit score of 850. That 0% financing was offered only to folks with the best credit. Folks with low credit don't qualify because obviously, if they are more a credit risk than they have to pay more for the privilege of financing. In addition, that 0% was only for vehicles of the prior model year. It has nothing to do with your fabricated "poor selling" vehicles. My car is one on the best sellers for Ford so give it a rest.
That 0% deal is not rare. Stop making shit up if you don't know. This was offered to anyone that qualified, meaning responsible people. If you really believe paying $50K for a car in cash is better than a 0% loan allowing you to keep your money working for you, then maybe you are the one that got swayed by those late night infomercials and got suckered into one.
Zero % car financing is rare as obviously they make no money on loaning you money. Show me a manufacturer offering 0% currently. They probably just wanted to get rid of that car that's been on their lot all year (it was costing them money as they probably took a loan out to buy it). The only way you get a perfect credit score is by borrowing a lot of money, after all it is called a "credit" score. I assume once your home mortgage is paid off, you'll remortgage it and invest that money in the stock market. After all the mortgage rate is 4.5% and the market returns 10%. But, you know you won't do that. You're forgetting about risk.
I'll continue to be a multimillionaire that never goes into debt, and you can continue to do whatever it is you do.
And my house (in San Francisco) is paid off. No mortgage and financially, doing just fine.
By your arrogance, wouldn't surprise me if your "multimillionaire" status includes your parents' money, assuming you're even remotely telling the truth. Based on your prior posts, It's most likely the latter.
None of those I'm remotely interested in. I'd rather get a much larger cash back than 0% interest.
No, I'm a self made millionaire, I've gotten no inheritance or gifts. I've had a good income, and made sound investment decisions. Believe me or don't believe me, I really don't give a shit. And, I'm being arrogant by saying I don't go into debt?
Why haven't you remortgaged your house at 4.5% and invest that money at 10% in the market? Think of how much money you'll make!
Weird you should ask him that question, given your braggadocio about understanding risk and return: on a 40% tax bracket (which, as a "millionaire" you probably are), your actual cost of borrowing is 2.7%; an investment in A-rated (probably comparable in terms of the actual risk) municipal bonds gives you an after-tax 3.5%.
Why are you leaving $$ on the table?
Of course a 40% tax bracket doesn't mean all your income is taxed at 40% and don't forget about the SALT and mortgage interest deduction limit. The reason people don't remortgage their paid for house is they don't want to risk losing it in a market down turn.
Um... you should always make financial decisions using the marginal -- not the average -- tax rate, shouldn't you? In other words, I am sure you know that the essence of good financial decision making is to look at the tax effects of the incremental dollar that comes in or goes out as a result of that decision?
Yes, it’s true. But what a lot of people don’t understand is that not every investment gives the highest return. Like many things, it’s not that simple. I could sell all my Apple stock and buy various parts of BlackRock, and get (a real) 9+ percent return. But then I’d give up growth, etc. when we figure out the taxes with the accountant, which are too complex for my liking, I find that sometimes just giving a bit more on taxes saves us a lot of hassle. To me, that’s worth it. Everyone is different. I’ve gotten to the point that a bit here and there just doesn’t matter to me.
I am literally lol at some of these commenters. All of business, from banking to construction to real estate development, is entirely 100% based on lending, credit, debt, and repayment over time with interest. If there was no such thing the world economy would be in tatters — because few can afford to build a skyscraper or shopping center or even a house with cash. It has always been this way, and will always be this way. But sure, preach on with your cute debt-free piggy banks. Doesn’t change a thing in the real world.
Sure, some things require financing (which involves interest), but you aren't paying attention if you don't think a heck of a lot of people don't seem capable of using credit responsibly. And, one of the best ways to get your debt under control, if you can't manage a credit card, is to use debit cards or cash.
6502 said: Of course I was being sarcastic. He was so proud of his 0% two year loan. And he likely could have gotten a higher cash rebate if paid in cash instead of taking the loan.
Well, there are sometimes exceptions. When we bought our previous car, VW was offering 2 years (maybe 3?, I can't remember exactly) with zero % financing. Unless I'm missing something, we'd have been foolish not to take that deal. We paid the car off in under 2 years (we could have paid most of it off immediately, actually), but got to use that money in the interim at VW's expense.
I don't think they would have given us a better deal if we had paid cash. In fact, I think we talked about that at the time, as we could have (with a small note to temporarily cover the difference from our bank). We came out better taking VW's deal. (When we went in, we didn't intend on financing it.)
But, even then... I think more relevant to this discussion, they know the average person won't pay it off in those 2 years, so they'll get the interest. So, the push even those kind of 'too good to be true' details to pull people in. They sell a car, and they probably get interest from 90% of people in the long run. It's a win-win except for the few people like us, and even then, it was a win to move the car.
I'm wondering how much of this card is Apple and how much of it is Goldman? ... Is it just a store card (like Macy's) issued by a bank but under the name of store (Apple)? ... How much of my data does Goldman see? ... If there is a problem -- say an unautorized charge or payment not recorded -- does an Apple employee deal with it or Goldman?
Yeah, that's one of my questions too. Apple talks about privacy and tokenized purchases and all. But, I think that applies to the vendor you're purchasing from, not the bank behind the card. I'm pretty sure they would be generating the statement and have your purchase data. I would have a hard time believing they would just be underwriting Apple, and Apple is becoming the bank.
I think for the really fiscally conservative types (like Dave Ramsey), that would be a no-no. He'd argue that you should save up for a car and buy what you can afford (as a car isn't an asset, depreciates, etc.). I've often argued you're better off buying a used-car most of the time anyway (there are exceptions).
The problem is that most people really mess up with fairly big things like cars and student loans (and I'll include my past-self in that.... bad decisions which I'm still recovering from). Real-estate, IMO, is about the only exception if you're being financially smart (or have enough money/resources that it doesn't matter).
Apple the most disruptive corporate force in entrenched business practices. They shook the Computer Industry to its core and changed the way people interacted with computers. They did this by changing the basic philosophy and premise of computing. They personalized it. Game Changer. They did it with music, how it was distributed, how it was carried, how it was consumed. Game Changer. Now they are bring that same disruptive force to the financial industry. Credit Cards have been pretty pedestrian for decades. They have been entirely industry (financial industry driven) as a result the ways they have tried to interact with their consumers have been more and more driven by their self interest with little concern for the consumer experience. AppleCard... Game Changer.
Does it break the mold for rewards? Nope. Does it break the mold for cost? Nope. Does it break the mold for all things reward driven Credit Card? Nope. It just thinks different and delivers a better consumer experience in delivering it. Apple just Apple-ized Consumer Credit. 10 years from now we will all look back and say "of course making it easier for Credit Approval should be this easy. Of course all of the things that AppleCard just delivered to consumer finance should have been implemented." Except Chase, Bank of America, Well Fargo, and a myriad of other Financial Industry Titans could have done it but didn't. They had to have the foundation of their business model moved beneath them by Apple.
Troll away with, how "Meh, my card does all that already. Big Deal! Why are Apple fanbois such tewls?", indifference. DOS command line users used to LOVE how easy it was to do things too. Now we all just do things differently. We all just do things differently, more intuitively, and simply, since Apple decided to innovate the processes.
If you think the Apple Card is a game changer, you've set a very low bar.
And your indifference to the shift will be looked at as part of the problem that Apple just solved for an industry it didn't NEED to be involved in. Apple doesn't make moves and involve itself in things if it doesn't feel like it can make a significant (read profitable) change in a significant way. This big dog doesn't get off the porch unless there is a need. You staring at the enormity of the dog and saying " psssshhht! I've seen bigger dogs" Misses the point a little. You pulling the curtain back and pointing to the Great Wizard, 5 minutes into the movie, misses the point a bit. It's all Meh bro, life isn't that complicated. Your indifference and nonchalantness isn't all that earth shattering, in fact Microsoft and IBM used to say "they only represent less than 3% of all computer users..." too. How is that indifference working out for them?
So Apple is now a martyr for saving the credit card industry? My credit card is a next to nothing part of my life. I charge things on it, pay it off when due and don't think twice about it. This is not what made Apple great.
LOL You sir are not the average consumer. Congrats on WINNING! Apple isn't a martyr. They won't die because of this. They will however, usher in a changed ecosystem that never existed before. They will usher in a new and easier way for the "average consumer" to interact with their finances. Bro clearly this isn't a big deal to you. However, your incredible money skillz aren't who this is for. This is for the average user. This is for the masses. This just took your "I'm winning at life cuz I can finance..." and made it easier for the average user to win. GAME CHANGER. Your once venerable DOS Command Line user skillz have just been fossilized. Welcome to irrelevance.
So it's for people who buy stuff they don't need, with money they don't have to impress people they don't like (to quote Dave Ramsey). In other words, imbeciles.
The worst kind of imbecile is one who does not understand the opportunity cost of using one’s capital.
When someone says “I never take on debt,” they simply have no clue how they could have invested their capital to earn a higher rate of return, and therefore how, by avoiding debt, they’re incurring an opportunity cost.
I recommend some Econ 101.
And you're forgetting about risk. Why doesn't everyone remortgage their paid off house and invest the money? I recommend some high school econ.
Too bad that the autarkic barter economy doesn't exist in your primitive financial world...
My financial world may be primitive, but it's gained me several million dollars and I sleep like a baby at night. I don't worry about margin calls, or not being able to pay my debts. To me that's worth a lot.
Anyone who buys stock on margin is, indeed, an imbecile -- most brokerages charge personal investors 6%-7%. But that's not what you've been talking about. You've been berating people for borrowing mortgage debt at 4.5% (pre-tax), which makes no sense (given your supposed financial savvy).
Moreover, your arrogance is laid bare by the stupid comment that you "sleep like a baby at night." Does it occur to you that is for exactly the same reason that, some people who may not have the ability make ends meet during the last week of the month might decide to not pay off 100% of their cc charges by the end of the month?
Or, is sleep only for arrogant internet twits like you?
I never berated anyone for taking out a reasonable mortgage loan and paying it off as fast as you can. I said many times before that this is the only acceptable loan to take out and only because it is for an asset that you live in and increases in value. I berated people for using credit card debt as a way to finance a life style they cannot afford. Cry me a river if you can't budget your money and save an emergency fund.
But, I'm an arrogant internet twit for being fiscally responsible that lives well below my means and never goes into consumer debt. I'm happily a twit then.
Well, to be fair, car loans too.
No, that was one of the first things I worked on -- after I realized how much money I was wasting paying off my early car loans. I decided I wouldn't buy a car that I couldn't pay cash for -- because otherwise I was paying too much. 50 years later I don't regret that a bit. (It also stopped the temptation of buying that really cool car and instead I drove Corollas and such.)
I'm wondering how much of this card is Apple and how much of it is Goldman? ... Is it just a store card (like Macy's) issued by a bank but under the name of store (Apple)? ... How much of my data does Goldman see? ... If there is a problem -- say an unautorized charge or payment not recorded -- does an Apple employee deal with it or Goldman?
Yeah, that's one of my questions too. Apple talks about privacy and tokenized purchases and all. But, I think that applies to the vendor you're purchasing from, not the bank behind the card. I'm pretty sure they would be generating the statement and have your purchase data. I would have a hard time believing they would just be underwriting Apple, and Apple is becoming the bank.
Yeh, you're probably right about that: this is likely just a fancy department store credit care and I suspect Goldman knows all and gets to see everything..
But it goes potentially a little deeper than that: Today's FinTech startups are being constrained because banking regulations prohibit them from doing many of the things banks are allowed to do. And, Apple has been pushing that envelope with ApplePay and especially AppleCash. This partnership with a legal bank (or is it bankster?) could open some doors for them.
Standard isn’t always best when many cards have better rewards than 2%. Also, my standard purchases are extremely low compared to other categories. There’s practically nowhere that I purchase things that I can’t get at least 3% back and up to 5% on most things.
Depends on how one defines "best", doesn't it? The Amazon Prime Store Card, for example, gives you 5% back... with a 28.24% annual APR.
Apple committed to a low (albeit unspecified) APR, with no fees, no late charges, and no penalties. Not to mention the not-so-minor fact that you get your rewards back daily as Apple Cash. Not at the end of the month, not when you redeem them. Daily.
Then there's the secure unique randomized card number per transaction. No number or signature to steal on the physical card. No tracking of purchases. No sales of transaction data.
I don't know about you, but there's a ton of value in privacy and security.
Fees and APRs don’t matter if you pay your balance in full.
You realize that being able to pay off your cards every month isn’t the norm, right?
For our Amex card it is. There are lots of people using that. I would imagine that most idevice users have one.
That's my primary. Forces me to pay off all charges no interest.
I'm wondering how much of this card is Apple and how much of it is Goldman? ... Is it just a store card (like Macy's) issued by a bank but under the name of store (Apple)? ... How much of my data does Goldman see? ... If there is a problem -- say an unautorized charge or payment not recorded -- does an Apple employee deal with it or Goldman?
Yeah, that's one of my questions too. Apple talks about privacy and tokenized purchases and all. But, I think that applies to the vendor you're purchasing from, not the bank behind the card. I'm pretty sure they would be generating the statement and have your purchase data. I would have a hard time believing they would just be underwriting Apple, and Apple is becoming the bank.
This partnership with a legal bank (or is it bankster?)
It remains an open question over how much of this card is "Apple" versus how much of it is "Goldman". In truth, it seems that we don't really know -- and the answer depends mostly on which part of the card you are looking at. But, it is clear I think, that a big part of this card is Goldman Sachs not Apple.
So, this article might be interesting in why and how Goldman is leaving investment banking and entering consumer banking via credit cards. One interesting point it makes: They seem less likely to finance the card themselves as opposed to "securitizing the debt" * -- much as they and others did with mortgage debt in the run up to the 2008 crash.
* Securitizing debt is: taking debt an entity has issued, bundling it up and selling it to others. Among other things it is way of increasing leverage because you can then use the proceeds of that sale to lend out more money -- which you then sell to produce more money which you use to finance more lending... That can go on almost indefinitely. There were some prior to 2008 who turned it over upwards of 70 times. Then, when the debt became worthless, the whole scheme came crashing down.
But, prior to 2008 there were three additional factors that compounded the systemic risk: 1) The banksters moved the liability for the debt off of their balance sheets into off-shore entities in order to hide their true risk. 2) Auditors were paid to look the other way and regulators were told to rely on free markets to regulate the risk. 3) Ratings agencies were paid to rate the collatoralized debt as "AAA' when it was really just junk.
It remains an open question over how much of this card is "Apple" versus how much of it is "Goldman". In truth, it seems that we don't really know -- and the answer depends mostly on which part of the card you are looking at. But, it is clear I think, that a big part of this card is Goldman Sachs not Apple.
Even Apple doesn’t know what you bought. Or where. Or how much you paid.
"At Apple, we firmly believe in your right to privacy. That’s why we created a unique architecture for Apple Card that generates things like your transaction history and spending summaries right in the Wallet app on your iPhone.
"Of course, Goldman Sachs will use your data to operate Apple Card. But they will never share or sell your data to third parties for marketing or advertising."
So Apple won't know, but Goldman will, tho they won't sell/share personally identifiable stuff outside of GS properties for ads/marketing according to Apple. No mention of any other restrictions that I see. So in the background similar to other credit cards who also say they don't sell or share personal marketing/ad data to 3rd parties AFAICT.
Apple the most disruptive corporate force in entrenched business practices. They shook the Computer Industry to its core and changed the way people interacted with computers. They did this by changing the basic philosophy and premise of computing. They personalized it. Game Changer. They did it with music, how it was distributed, how it was carried, how it was consumed. Game Changer. Now they are bring that same disruptive force to the financial industry. Credit Cards have been pretty pedestrian for decades. They have been entirely industry (financial industry driven) as a result the ways they have tried to interact with their consumers have been more and more driven by their self interest with little concern for the consumer experience. AppleCard... Game Changer.
Does it break the mold for rewards? Nope. Does it break the mold for cost? Nope. Does it break the mold for all things reward driven Credit Card? Nope. It just thinks different and delivers a better consumer experience in delivering it. Apple just Apple-ized Consumer Credit. 10 years from now we will all look back and say "of course making it easier for Credit Approval should be this easy. Of course all of the things that AppleCard just delivered to consumer finance should have been implemented." Except Chase, Bank of America, Well Fargo, and a myriad of other Financial Industry Titans could have done it but didn't. They had to have the foundation of their business model moved beneath them by Apple.
Troll away with, how "Meh, my card does all that already. Big Deal! Why are Apple fanbois such tewls?", indifference. DOS command line users used to LOVE how easy it was to do things too. Now we all just do things differently. We all just do things differently, more intuitively, and simply, since Apple decided to innovate the processes.
If you think the Apple Card is a game changer, you've set a very low bar.
And your indifference to the shift will be looked at as part of the problem that Apple just solved for an industry it didn't NEED to be involved in. Apple doesn't make moves and involve itself in things if it doesn't feel like it can make a significant (read profitable) change in a significant way. This big dog doesn't get off the porch unless there is a need. You staring at the enormity of the dog and saying " psssshhht! I've seen bigger dogs" Misses the point a little. You pulling the curtain back and pointing to the Great Wizard, 5 minutes into the movie, misses the point a bit. It's all Meh bro, life isn't that complicated. Your indifference and nonchalantness isn't all that earth shattering, in fact Microsoft and IBM used to say "they only represent less than 3% of all computer users..." too. How is that indifference working out for them?
So Apple is now a martyr for saving the credit card industry? My credit card is a next to nothing part of my life. I charge things on it, pay it off when due and don't think twice about it. This is not what made Apple great.
LOL You sir are not the average consumer. Congrats on WINNING! Apple isn't a martyr. They won't die because of this. They will however, usher in a changed ecosystem that never existed before. They will usher in a new and easier way for the "average consumer" to interact with their finances. Bro clearly this isn't a big deal to you. However, your incredible money skillz aren't who this is for. This is for the average user. This is for the masses. This just took your "I'm winning at life cuz I can finance..." and made it easier for the average user to win. GAME CHANGER. Your once venerable DOS Command Line user skillz have just been fossilized. Welcome to irrelevance.
So it's for people who buy stuff they don't need, with money they don't have to impress people they don't like (to quote Dave Ramsey). In other words, imbeciles.
The worst kind of imbecile is one who does not understand the opportunity cost of using one’s capital.
When someone says “I never take on debt,” they simply have no clue how they could have invested their capital to earn a higher rate of return, and therefore how, by avoiding debt, they’re incurring an opportunity cost.
I recommend some Econ 101.
And you're forgetting about risk. Why doesn't everyone remortgage their paid off house and invest the money? I recommend some high school econ.
Too bad that the autarkic barter economy doesn't exist in your primitive financial world...
My financial world may be primitive, but it's gained me several million dollars and I sleep like a baby at night. I don't worry about margin calls, or not being able to pay my debts. To me that's worth a lot.
Anyone who buys stock on margin is, indeed, an imbecile -- most brokerages charge personal investors 6%-7%. But that's not what you've been talking about. You've been berating people for borrowing mortgage debt at 4.5% (pre-tax), which makes no sense (given your supposed financial savvy).
Moreover, your arrogance is laid bare by the stupid comment that you "sleep like a baby at night." Does it occur to you that is for exactly the same reason that, some people who may not have the ability make ends meet during the last week of the month might decide to not pay off 100% of their cc charges by the end of the month?
Or, is sleep only for arrogant internet twits like you?
I never berated anyone for taking out a reasonable mortgage loan and paying it off as fast as you can. I said many times before that this is the only acceptable loan to take out and only because it is for an asset that you live in and increases in value. I berated people for using credit card debt as a way to finance a life style they cannot afford. Cry me a river if you can't budget your money and save an emergency fund.
But, I'm an arrogant internet twit for being fiscally responsible that lives well below my means and never goes into consumer debt. I'm happily a twit then.
Well, to be fair, car loans too.
No, that was one of the first things I worked on -- after I realized how much money I was wasting paying off my early car loans. I decided I wouldn't buy a car that I couldn't pay cash for -- because otherwise I was paying too much. 50 years later I don't regret that a bit. (It also stopped the temptation of buying that really cool car and instead I drove Corollas and such.)
Most people can afford to take out a car loan, but can’t afford to buy it outright. You are very dogmatic about all of this. What’s good for you isn’t always good for someone else. Life isn’t about saving every penny.
Standard isn’t always best when many cards have better rewards than 2%. Also, my standard purchases are extremely low compared to other categories. There’s practically nowhere that I purchase things that I can’t get at least 3% back and up to 5% on most things.
Depends on how one defines "best", doesn't it? The Amazon Prime Store Card, for example, gives you 5% back... with a 28.24% annual APR.
Apple committed to a low (albeit unspecified) APR, with no fees, no late charges, and no penalties. Not to mention the not-so-minor fact that you get your rewards back daily as Apple Cash. Not at the end of the month, not when you redeem them. Daily.
Then there's the secure unique randomized card number per transaction. No number or signature to steal on the physical card. No tracking of purchases. No sales of transaction data.
I don't know about you, but there's a ton of value in privacy and security.
Fees and APRs don’t matter if you pay your balance in full.
You realize that being able to pay off your cards every month isn’t the norm, right?
For our Amex card it is. There are lots of people using that. I would imagine that most idevice users have one.
That's my primary. Forces me to pay off all charges no interest.
We use our cards, mostly AmEx, as cash. In other words, if we can budget for this month, we buy it, and use the card for it. We use the other cards only when AmEx isn’t accepted, but we pay that off that month as well. The card companies don’t like us.
You'll need a 780 FICO score to get the Apple Card. There is a $200 cap regarding Daily Cash Back. I don't know if that applies to the size of the purchase or the amount of cash returned daily. No late fees, no more missed payment penalty fees, but if either occurs your interest rate is increased. Maybe it drops if you behave long enough. Don't know.
There are no doubt other revelations in the fine print, so scrutinizing the TOS is as always the smart thing to do.
Obviously, the Apple Card is not the one card to rule them all; are any? You can have 10 cards to play as circumstances dictate, to maximize your points, miles, cash back, or however you choose to manage your finances.
Something that strikes me as odd is the number of posters who claim higher benefits for their card, and don't, as some posters do, name that card and/or bank. It leaves their claims unverifiable. Why would they do that.
I only have one credit card, USAA, that seldom gets used and it's app is tedious. I'll get the Apple card just to play with the app. That card may get more use, or I'll just go back to my debit card as my daily driver, which is afforded the same fraud protection as a credit card.
I pay cash for all my cars. And, I sleep like a baby at night knowing I don't owe anyone a nickel. The borrower is slave to the lender. You are criticizing me for being fiscally sound? LOL. If you enjoy paying fees and interest be my guest. I know I'll never be sued for not being able to pay on a load I don't have.
Well that's just good for you. Paying cash when you can use someone else's money is not sound planning as far as I'm concerned. I bought my car a couple years ago with 0% financing. I had the cash, but why take my $50K out of the market when I can keep it working for me?
The money I made on that $50K over the two years resulted in a significant "discount" on my car when I paid it off 8 months ago.
To be fair though, most people don't have the opportunity to use other people's money like you did. They have to let other people use their money. And while I enjoy being able to pay cash for most things, there are times when it's just not advisable to do so.
It's not always best to pay cash, but it's usually better.
If you have a credit card, by definition, you are using someone else's money for a period of time. The rewards stuff is a model where those with the money are willing to share the swipe fees they get from a merchant with the debtor. And of course the long bet is that that the debtor will then be willing to pay for longer term use of that money.
I have not paid cash for any purchase in many, many years. I use other people's cash (the reward credit cards) and am rewarded for doing so to the tune of > $1000 year.
I do the same. I never carry a balance but use my credit card for everything because of the rewards. At 3.4% back on everything with no limits or restrictions, it adds up fast.
When it comes to financing, if someone else is going to let me use their money interest-free, whether it’s for a month or years, I’ll take advantage. I bought my last car on a 72 month 0% deal. I got a much better vehicle than I could have bought for all cash at the time and had 6 years to pay it off without interest.
There are many great financing deals and reward options out there, but the key to taking advantage is discipline. Take balance transfer deals. Some can be quite good, even with the transfer fee, but if you don’t pay them off by the end of the promotional period, they sock you with all of the accumulated interest. Buyer beware, but if you’re disciplined and pay it off in time, you’ll save a lot of money.
Apple the most disruptive corporate force in entrenched business practices. They shook the Computer Industry to its core and changed the way people interacted with computers. They did this by changing the basic philosophy and premise of computing. They personalized it. Game Changer. They did it with music, how it was distributed, how it was carried, how it was consumed. Game Changer. Now they are bring that same disruptive force to the financial industry. Credit Cards have been pretty pedestrian for decades. They have been entirely industry (financial industry driven) as a result the ways they have tried to interact with their consumers have been more and more driven by their self interest with little concern for the consumer experience. AppleCard... Game Changer.
Does it break the mold for rewards? Nope. Does it break the mold for cost? Nope. Does it break the mold for all things reward driven Credit Card? Nope. It just thinks different and delivers a better consumer experience in delivering it. Apple just Apple-ized Consumer Credit. 10 years from now we will all look back and say "of course making it easier for Credit Approval should be this easy. Of course all of the things that AppleCard just delivered to consumer finance should have been implemented." Except Chase, Bank of America, Well Fargo, and a myriad of other Financial Industry Titans could have done it but didn't. They had to have the foundation of their business model moved beneath them by Apple.
Troll away with, how "Meh, my card does all that already. Big Deal! Why are Apple fanbois such tewls?", indifference. DOS command line users used to LOVE how easy it was to do things too. Now we all just do things differently. We all just do things differently, more intuitively, and simply, since Apple decided to innovate the processes.
If you think the Apple Card is a game changer, you've set a very low bar.
And your indifference to the shift will be looked at as part of the problem that Apple just solved for an industry it didn't NEED to be involved in. Apple doesn't make moves and involve itself in things if it doesn't feel like it can make a significant (read profitable) change in a significant way. This big dog doesn't get off the porch unless there is a need. You staring at the enormity of the dog and saying " psssshhht! I've seen bigger dogs" Misses the point a little. You pulling the curtain back and pointing to the Great Wizard, 5 minutes into the movie, misses the point a bit. It's all Meh bro, life isn't that complicated. Your indifference and nonchalantness isn't all that earth shattering, in fact Microsoft and IBM used to say "they only represent less than 3% of all computer users..." too. How is that indifference working out for them?
So Apple is now a martyr for saving the credit card industry? My credit card is a next to nothing part of my life. I charge things on it, pay it off when due and don't think twice about it. This is not what made Apple great.
LOL You sir are not the average consumer. Congrats on WINNING! Apple isn't a martyr. They won't die because of this. They will however, usher in a changed ecosystem that never existed before. They will usher in a new and easier way for the "average consumer" to interact with their finances. Bro clearly this isn't a big deal to you. However, your incredible money skillz aren't who this is for. This is for the average user. This is for the masses. This just took your "I'm winning at life cuz I can finance..." and made it easier for the average user to win. GAME CHANGER. Your once venerable DOS Command Line user skillz have just been fossilized. Welcome to irrelevance.
So it's for people who buy stuff they don't need, with money they don't have to impress people they don't like (to quote Dave Ramsey). In other words, imbeciles.
The worst kind of imbecile is one who does not understand the opportunity cost of using one’s capital.
When someone says “I never take on debt,” they simply have no clue how they could have invested their capital to earn a higher rate of return, and therefore how, by avoiding debt, they’re incurring an opportunity cost.
I recommend some Econ 101.
And you're forgetting about risk. Why doesn't everyone remortgage their paid off house and invest the money? I recommend some high school econ.
Too bad that the autarkic barter economy doesn't exist in your primitive financial world...
My financial world may be primitive, but it's gained me several million dollars and I sleep like a baby at night. I don't worry about margin calls, or not being able to pay my debts. To me that's worth a lot.
Anyone who buys stock on margin is, indeed, an imbecile -- most brokerages charge personal investors 6%-7%. But that's not what you've been talking about. You've been berating people for borrowing mortgage debt at 4.5% (pre-tax), which makes no sense (given your supposed financial savvy).
Moreover, your arrogance is laid bare by the stupid comment that you "sleep like a baby at night." Does it occur to you that is for exactly the same reason that, some people who may not have the ability make ends meet during the last week of the month might decide to not pay off 100% of their cc charges by the end of the month?
Or, is sleep only for arrogant internet twits like you?
I never berated anyone for taking out a reasonable mortgage loan and paying it off as fast as you can. I said many times before that this is the only acceptable loan to take out and only because it is for an asset that you live in and increases in value. I berated people for using credit card debt as a way to finance a life style they cannot afford. Cry me a river if you can't budget your money and save an emergency fund.
But, I'm an arrogant internet twit for being fiscally responsible that lives well below my means and never goes into consumer debt. I'm happily a twit then.
Well, to be fair, car loans too.
No, that was one of the first things I worked on -- after I realized how much money I was wasting paying off my early car loans. I decided I wouldn't buy a car that I couldn't pay cash for -- because otherwise I was paying too much. 50 years later I don't regret that a bit. (It also stopped the temptation of buying that really cool car and instead I drove Corollas and such.)
Most people can afford to take out a car loan, but can’t afford to buy it outright. You are very dogmatic about all of this. What’s good for you isn’t always good for someone else. Life isn’t about saving every penny.
You'll need a 780 FICO score to get the Apple Card. There is a $200 cap regarding Daily Cash Back. I don't know if that applies to the size of the purchase or the amount of cash returned daily. No late fees, no more missed payment penalty fees, but if either occurs your interest rate is increased. Maybe it drops if you behave long enough. Don't know.
There are no doubt other revelations in the fine print, so scrutinizing the TOS is as always the smart thing to do.
Obviously, the Apple Card is not the one card to rule them all; are any? You can have 10 cards to play as circumstances dictate, to maximize your points, miles, cash back, or however you choose to manage your finances.
Something that strikes me as odd is the number of posters who claim higher benefits for their card, and don't, as some posters do, name that card and/or bank. It leaves their claims unverifiable. Why would they do that.
I only have one credit card, USAA, that seldom gets used and it's app is tedious. I'll get the Apple card just to play with the app. That card may get more use, or I'll just go back to my debit card as my daily driver, which is afforded the same fraud protection as a credit card.
It's generally best to avoid using debit cards as, if they get hacked and false charges racked up, your money is locked up until they determine that it was fraud and refund it.
At one point I thought one credit card was sufficient. That changed when Target got hacked and my credit company locked my card and then took their sweet time sending a new one. After that I have always had at least 2 cards -- one I save for repetitive charges (like my phone bill) and the other for shopping.
You'll need a 780 FICO score to get the Apple Card. There is a $200 cap regarding Daily Cash Back. I don't know if that applies to the size of the purchase or the amount of cash returned daily. No late fees, no more missed payment penalty fees, but if either occurs your interest rate is increased. Maybe it drops if you behave long enough. Don't know.
There are no doubt other revelations in the fine print, so scrutinizing the TOS is as always the smart thing to do.
Obviously, the Apple Card is not the one card to rule them all; are any? You can have 10 cards to play as circumstances dictate, to maximize your points, miles, cash back, or however you choose to manage your finances.
Something that strikes me as odd is the number of posters who claim higher benefits for their card, and don't, as some posters do, name that card and/or bank. It leaves their claims unverifiable. Why would they do that.
I only have one credit card, USAA, that seldom gets used and it's app is tedious. I'll get the Apple card just to play with the app. That card may get more use, or I'll just go back to my debit card as my daily driver, which is afforded the same fraud protection as a credit card.
It's generally best to avoid using debit cards as, if they get hacked and false charges racked up, your money is locked up until they determine that it was fraud and refund it.
At one point I thought one credit card was sufficient. That changed when Target got hacked and my credit company locked my card and then took their sweet time sending a new one. After that I have always had at least 2 cards -- one I save for repetitive charges (like my phone bill) and the other for shopping.
This is good advice. I never use a debit card for the reason you noted. My primary credit card gets compromised at least once a year. I only carry this one card with me (along with my debit, in case of emergency). My other cards never leave the house and are strictly used for autopay to keep the accounts active and in good standing. The biggest PITA about having a credit card number compromised is having to change autopay settings.
robbyx said: The biggest PITA about having a credit card number compromised is having to change autopay settings.
That's why I keep Secure Note in my 1Password app (but one can also use the Notes or countless other options) with a list of companies that store financial accounts on their severs, which card/account they store, and if it's auto-pay or not. This also helps when there's a card that is expiring or lost, not just stolen.
melgross said: Most people can afford to take out a car loan, but can’t afford to buy it outright. You are very dogmatic about all of this. What’s good for you isn’t always good for someone else. Life isn’t about saving every penny.
True, though they don't have to buy a new car, either.
We're just talking about some general best financial practices, but I'm sure there are exceptions. For example, when we bought the new VW I talked about earlier, I didn't want to buy new, but I wanted that technology and the used market was horrible (very few for sale, really high prices), so I went new. Of course, now in hindsight, I didn't realize the whole TDI-scandal thing was going to happen and the bottom fall out of that market, etc. (And, while VW bought the car back from us, I think non-scandal, it would have been worth more than they paid us... though it wasn't that bad.)
For most of my life, I haven't had a new car. I've also never spent over $10k for a car... often even $5k (with the exception of the VW above and the car I bought when I was like 19, my second car, actually). I currently drive a quite nice (some people think it is new) BMW 328xi, and I don't even have $10k in it yet, including repairs and maintenance for the last 2 years.
Of course, I'd have been even better off buying a used Honda or Toyota (less chance of expansive maintenance), but my point is that - as a general rule - you're better off buying used, and something as close as possible to what you can immediately afford (I paid cash for the BMW). When you consider the amount of interest paid, and especially the initial depreciation hit, buying a new car isn't a very wise financial choice (for anyone!).
The reason most, even very conservative, financial gurus make an exception for a house, is that real-estate generally appreciates in value and almost no one can even get into the market without taking on debt. A car kind of seems that way, but it really isn't. I've even purchased cars to get me by a few times for around $2k. (I suppose if you can't afford $2k and *need* a car for some reason, a small loan is justified... but then you certainly should be buying new!)
Also, when we talk about 'afford' be careful to differentiate 'possible' with 'good choice.' Maybe, they also can't really afford to do so, when we take interest and depreciation into the picture (can that person who can't afford to buy outright, afford taking a several $thousand financial hit?). As Dave Ramsey would say... once you're wealthy, then go out and buy the nice new car, because you then don't have to worry about losing $thousands in the process.
GeorgeBMac said: It's generally best to avoid using debit cards as, if they get hacked and false charges racked up, your money is locked up until they determine that it was fraud and refund it.
At one point I thought one credit card was sufficient. That changed when Target got hacked and my credit company locked my card and then took their sweet time sending a new one. After that I have always had at least 2 cards -- one I save for repetitive charges (like my phone bill) and the other for shopping.
Fair points... though nearly the entire Canadian population primarily uses debit cards. Many now also have a credit card, but debit is primary up here. Backups are good though.
robbyx said: My primary credit card gets compromised at least once a year.
Holy cow... what the heck? Knock on wood, we've never had that happen.
Soli said: That's why I keep Secure Note in my 1Password app (but one can also use the Notes or countless other options) with a list of companies that store financial accounts on their severs, which card/account they store, and if it's auto-pay or not. This also helps when there's a card that is expiring or lost, not just stolen.
A very good idea... I think I'll start doing that now.
robbyx said: The biggest PITA about having a credit card number compromised is having to change autopay settings.
That's why I keep Secure Note in my 1Password app (but one can also use the Notes or countless other options) with a list of companies that store financial accounts on their severs, which card/account they store, and if it's auto-pay or not. This also helps when there's a card that is expiring or lost, not just stolen.
Good advice. I used to take a similar approach but have stopped using 1P. For the past few years I’ve had a card that never leaves my house and is used only for autopay accounts. I used to have different things charging to different accounts, usually because of some points promotion or bonus deal, but that always got messy when the card was compromised.
Now the autopay card never leaves the house and is never used for one-time purchases. Unlike my primary card, that is compromised at least once a year, this autopay card has never been compromised. I have my bank set to autopay the balance in full each month. I now have a reminder shortly before the expiration date to update all of my autopay accounts with the new info.
Comments
Yes, it’s true. But what a lot of people don’t understand is that not every investment gives the highest return. Like many things, it’s not that simple. I could sell all my Apple stock and buy various parts of BlackRock, and get (a real) 9+ percent return. But then I’d give up growth, etc. when we figure out the taxes with the accountant, which are too complex for my liking, I find that sometimes just giving a bit more on taxes saves us a lot of hassle. To me, that’s worth it. Everyone is different. I’ve gotten to the point that a bit here and there just doesn’t matter to me.
Well, there are sometimes exceptions. When we bought our previous car, VW was offering 2 years (maybe 3?, I can't remember exactly) with zero % financing. Unless I'm missing something, we'd have been foolish not to take that deal. We paid the car off in under 2 years (we could have paid most of it off immediately, actually), but got to use that money in the interim at VW's expense.
I don't think they would have given us a better deal if we had paid cash. In fact, I think we talked about that at the time, as we could have (with a small note to temporarily cover the difference from our bank). We came out better taking VW's deal. (When we went in, we didn't intend on financing it.)
But, even then... I think more relevant to this discussion, they know the average person won't pay it off in those 2 years, so they'll get the interest. So, the push even those kind of 'too good to be true' details to pull people in. They sell a car, and they probably get interest from 90% of people in the long run. It's a win-win except for the few people like us, and even then, it was a win to move the car.
Yeah, that's one of my questions too. Apple talks about privacy and tokenized purchases and all. But, I think that applies to the vendor you're purchasing from, not the bank behind the card. I'm pretty sure they would be generating the statement and have your purchase data. I would have a hard time believing they would just be underwriting Apple, and Apple is becoming the bank.
I think for the really fiscally conservative types (like Dave Ramsey), that would be a no-no. He'd argue that you should save up for a car and buy what you can afford (as a car isn't an asset, depreciates, etc.). I've often argued you're better off buying a used-car most of the time anyway (there are exceptions).
The problem is that most people really mess up with fairly big things like cars and student loans (and I'll include my past-self in that.... bad decisions which I'm still recovering from). Real-estate, IMO, is about the only exception if you're being financially smart (or have enough money/resources that it doesn't matter).
But it goes potentially a little deeper than that: Today's FinTech startups are being constrained because banking regulations prohibit them from doing many of the things banks are allowed to do. And, Apple has been pushing that envelope with ApplePay and especially AppleCash. This partnership with a legal bank (or is it bankster?) could open some doors for them.
https://nypost.com/2018/12/17/goldman-sachs-to-face-criminal-charges-in-multibillion-dollar-fraud-scheme/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-goldman-sachs-apple-card/goldmans-apple-pairing-furthers-banks-mass-market-ambitions-idUSKCN1R72NS
* Securitizing debt is: taking debt an entity has issued, bundling it up and selling it to others. Among other things it is way of increasing leverage because you can then use the proceeds of that sale to lend out more money -- which you then sell to produce more money which you use to finance more lending... That can go on almost indefinitely. There were some prior to 2008 who turned it over upwards of 70 times. Then, when the debt became worthless, the whole scheme came crashing down.
But, prior to 2008 there were three additional factors that compounded the systemic risk:
1) The banksters moved the liability for the debt off of their balance sheets into off-shore entities in order to hide their true risk.
2) Auditors were paid to look the other way and regulators were told to rely on free markets to regulate the risk.
3) Ratings agencies were paid to rate the collatoralized debt as "AAA' when it was really just junk.
Even Apple doesn’t know what you bought. Or where. Or how much you paid.
"At Apple, we firmly believe in your right to privacy. That’s why we created a unique architecture for Apple Card that generates things like your transaction history and spending summaries right in the Wallet app on your iPhone.
"Of course, Goldman Sachs will use your data to operate Apple Card. But they will never share or sell your data to third parties for marketing or advertising."
So Apple won't know, but Goldman will, tho they won't sell/share personally identifiable stuff outside of GS properties for ads/marketing according to Apple. No mention of any other restrictions that I see. So in the background similar to other credit cards who also say they don't sell or share personal marketing/ad data to 3rd parties AFAICT.
We use our cards, mostly AmEx, as cash. In other words, if we can budget for this month, we buy it, and use the card for it. We use the other cards only when AmEx isn’t accepted, but we pay that off that month as well. The card companies don’t like us.
There are no doubt other revelations in the fine print, so scrutinizing the TOS is as always the smart thing to do.
Obviously, the Apple Card is not the one card to rule them all; are any? You can have 10 cards to play as circumstances dictate, to maximize your points, miles, cash back, or however you choose to manage your finances.
Something that strikes me as odd is the number of posters who claim higher benefits for their card, and don't, as some posters do, name that card and/or bank. It leaves their claims unverifiable. Why would they do that.
I only have one credit card, USAA, that seldom gets used and it's app is tedious. I'll get the Apple card just to play with the app. That card may get more use, or I'll just go back to my debit card as my daily driver, which is afforded the same fraud protection as a credit card.
Until we can't. Just an FYI.
When it comes to financing, if someone else is going to let me use their money interest-free, whether it’s for a month or years, I’ll take advantage. I bought my last car on a 72 month 0% deal. I got a much better vehicle than I could have bought for all cash at the time and had 6 years to pay it off without interest.
There are many great financing deals and reward options out there, but the key to taking advantage is discipline. Take balance transfer deals. Some can be quite good, even with the transfer fee, but if you don’t pay them off by the end of the promotional period, they sock you with all of the accumulated interest. Buyer beware, but if you’re disciplined and pay it off in time, you’ll save a lot of money.
At one point I thought one credit card was sufficient. That changed when Target got hacked and my credit company locked my card and then took their sweet time sending a new one. After that I have always had at least 2 cards -- one I save for repetitive charges (like my phone bill) and the other for shopping.
We're just talking about some general best financial practices, but I'm sure there are exceptions. For example, when we bought the new VW I talked about earlier, I didn't want to buy new, but I wanted that technology and the used market was horrible (very few for sale, really high prices), so I went new. Of course, now in hindsight, I didn't realize the whole TDI-scandal thing was going to happen and the bottom fall out of that market, etc. (And, while VW bought the car back from us, I think non-scandal, it would have been worth more than they paid us... though it wasn't that bad.)
For most of my life, I haven't had a new car. I've also never spent over $10k for a car... often even $5k (with the exception of the VW above and the car I bought when I was like 19, my second car, actually). I currently drive a quite nice (some people think it is new) BMW 328xi, and I don't even have $10k in it yet, including repairs and maintenance for the last 2 years.
Of course, I'd have been even better off buying a used Honda or Toyota (less chance of expansive maintenance), but my point is that - as a general rule - you're better off buying used, and something as close as possible to what you can immediately afford (I paid cash for the BMW). When you consider the amount of interest paid, and especially the initial depreciation hit, buying a new car isn't a very wise financial choice (for anyone!).
The reason most, even very conservative, financial gurus make an exception for a house, is that real-estate generally appreciates in value and almost no one can even get into the market without taking on debt. A car kind of seems that way, but it really isn't. I've even purchased cars to get me by a few times for around $2k. (I suppose if you can't afford $2k and *need* a car for some reason, a small loan is justified... but then you certainly should be buying new!)
Backups are good though.
Holy cow... what the heck? Knock on wood, we've never had that happen.
A very good idea... I think I'll start doing that now.
Now the autopay card never leaves the house and is never used for one-time purchases. Unlike my primary card, that is compromised at least once a year, this autopay card has never been compromised. I have my bank set to autopay the balance in full each month. I now have a reminder shortly before the expiration date to update all of my autopay accounts with the new info.