Apple, Qualcomm reach modem licensing deal to end 'no license, no chips' trial

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Comments

  • Reply 81 of 127
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,889member
    sacto joe said:
    gatorguy said:
    sacto joe said:
    gatorguy said:
    carnegie said:
    gatorguy said:
    sacto joe said:
    My guess is, Qualcomm finally put an offer on the table that dropped the "percentage of phone price" as the determinant of the cost of the chip.  But perhaps the price was higher than Apple would have insisted on had they won at trial, but it was lower than what they had been paying by enough to just end it.

    The details will be interesting though as I believe an in-house chip by Apple was coming within the next year or two.  Does this put that initiative on hold for six years, or does Apple retain the right to put its own chip in a certain percentage of iPhones just like they put Intel modems in a certain amount of them before?
    I think this is closer to the mark than "Qualcomm won, Apple lost". And if it's right, then Apple came out ahead in the medium and long term, while Qualcomm gets to live a while longer. 

    But I'll hold off on any more opinions for now. My go-to source is http://www.fosspatents.com and he hasn't weighed in on this yet.
    He'll be shocked as he's been convinced from the get-go that Apple intended to carry this thru to the end.  
    If that's what he expected, I'm surprised. I check in on what he's saying sometimes, usually when I can't find a filing or when I'm interested in something that I won't be able to find information on myself (e.g., with regard to the judicial proceedings in Germany).

    I thought it was likely that Qualcomm and Apple would eventually settle their disputes, and that it would be more likely that they did once this case and the FTC case were decided. I'm surprised that (if) he thought otherwise. Or did he just think that Apple would see the case which just went to trial (i.e. the one heard by Judge Curiel) through to the end before agreeing to settle?
    The latter. 
    Pure conjecture.
    Well of course, as are your comments. So?
    So what's your problem with waiting to find out more before making conjecture. I've already said I'll hold. You, on the other hand....
    half of this site is people commenting on rumors by one analyst or another. Basically conjecture on conjecture. That's what a lot of people come to this site for - to debate topics with other interested people. 
    gatorguyasdasdmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 82 of 127
    sacto joe said:
    The truth very well could be they both blinked. 

    Apple, who right now is fighting negative press that people are tired of the new iPhone and see no need to upgrade and will still hold on to their older devices. They aren’t, but the adoption of new iPhones is slower than it has been in the past. For some people, they are holding out to see what replaces the XS line. To them, the XR is not the new phone they want. They want the XS, but at a XR price. 

    Apple is also concerned that the reports of a lack of a 5G roadmap will push potential upgrades away from them, so a deal to them was the lesser of 2 evils. Better to deal with the devil you know vis-à-vis Samsung. They know how to do it. 

    There are other news reports that Samsung is fairing better with the Galaxy S10 line, although I doubt it. There are many ads where carriers are giving away s10s when you buy one. That can’t be a good sign. Samsung is putting on a brave face, but they know they are in the same boat trying to sell a $1k phone.  It’s going to get worse when their folding phone ships this month. 

    For Qualcomm the risk was much higher. If this trial was to go forward, all of their strongarm tactics will be unveiled. Apple was lining up all of its upper management to show just how long and far Qualcomm has gone to intimidate Apple and other manufacturers into using their chips. Internal documents could have been unsealed and the rest of the world could see just how underhanded Qualcomm operates. This is why Samsung and others did side with Apple against Qualcomm in other cases. 

    So rather than taking a huge gamble in proceeding with this suit, Qualcomm has agreed to take less money, provide Apple chips it needs, keep it’s confidential agreements safe, and live to fight another day. 

    Apple won’t have to pay the ransom Qualcomm says it’s owed since they did lose that case. I’m sure the agreement covers letting that go or accepting a smaller amount in order to settle this case. 

    So now, Apple has a 5G plan if it decides to use Qualcomm chips and the tech media can now stop creating fud about Apple’s 5G future. 
    Conjecture piled on conjecture. If you really knew what Apple was concerned with, you'd be working for them, and you wouldn't be posting here.
    😉 
  • Reply 83 of 127
    avon b7 said:
    dt17 said:
    avon b7 said:
    No doubt those who spouted so much vitriol against Qualcomm have mixed feelings now. QC was evil but now a different viewpoint will probably unfold.

    If the X55 ends up in the 2019 refresh, no doubt all the talk about 5G being unnecessary on the iPhone this year will be forgotten.

    I wonder how much of a factor the 5G modem really was in ending this issue (and how much Apple paid in the end).


    And if the X55 doesn’t end up in 2019 refresh? Will you buy each of us here an iPhone?
    No. LOL

    The 'if' part is there for that reason. The point being that it will be interesting to see what ends up in the 2019 refresh. If it is the X55 it would lend weight to the idea that Apple was in need of a 5G offering this year.
    Is there a law that Apple can release a new phone or a refresh once a year in September?

    I would be VERY disappointed in Tim if he held off on a 5G phone until Sept 2020 because the Sept 2019 refresh was already set.  Actually, now would be a GREAT time to end that stupidity:   Instead of focusing on simply putting out the world's greatest products, they have this show once a year where the biggest question is always whether Apple succeeded or failed - rather than the worthiness of the product.
    I’m sure that Apple has a contingency plan to put a Qualcomm 5G capable modem in whatever they are making for this year, but I wouldn’t count on it. 
  • Reply 84 of 127
    mdriftmeyermdriftmeyer Posts: 7,503member
    gatorguy said:
    wood1208 said:
    Intel 5G chip will be under pressure. We still don't know details of settlement including money aspect.
    This will give Apple multiyear licensing agreement for Qualcomm chips and IP to build own 5G chip in future.
    Apparently a 6-year royalty license to the IP, tho no mention of a license to manufacture. I would guess that Apple is forgoing further development of their own chip for the near future, at least in any shipping device, since they've agreed to purchase QC chips for multiple years as part of this settlement. 
    You would be wrong.
    ericthehalfbeetmay
  • Reply 85 of 127

    Sadly the settlement takes the FRAND issue off the table. Just once I’d like to see one of these FRAND holders forced to license their ip on FRAND terms, and have a court determine how that apportionment works.  
    thtasdasdemoeller
  • Reply 86 of 127
    MplsP said:
    sacto joe said:
    gatorguy said:
    sacto joe said:
    gatorguy said:
    carnegie said:
    gatorguy said:
    sacto joe said:
    My guess is, Qualcomm finally put an offer on the table that dropped the "percentage of phone price" as the determinant of the cost of the chip.  But perhaps the price was higher than Apple would have insisted on had they won at trial, but it was lower than what they had been paying by enough to just end it.

    The details will be interesting though as I believe an in-house chip by Apple was coming within the next year or two.  Does this put that initiative on hold for six years, or does Apple retain the right to put its own chip in a certain percentage of iPhones just like they put Intel modems in a certain amount of them before?
    I think this is closer to the mark than "Qualcomm won, Apple lost". And if it's right, then Apple came out ahead in the medium and long term, while Qualcomm gets to live a while longer. 

    But I'll hold off on any more opinions for now. My go-to source is http://www.fosspatents.com and he hasn't weighed in on this yet.
    He'll be shocked as he's been convinced from the get-go that Apple intended to carry this thru to the end.  
    If that's what he expected, I'm surprised. I check in on what he's saying sometimes, usually when I can't find a filing or when I'm interested in something that I won't be able to find information on myself (e.g., with regard to the judicial proceedings in Germany).

    I thought it was likely that Qualcomm and Apple would eventually settle their disputes, and that it would be more likely that they did once this case and the FTC case were decided. I'm surprised that (if) he thought otherwise. Or did he just think that Apple would see the case which just went to trial (i.e. the one heard by Judge Curiel) through to the end before agreeing to settle?
    The latter. 
    Pure conjecture.
    Well of course, as are your comments. So?
    So what's your problem with waiting to find out more before making conjecture. I've already said I'll hold. You, on the other hand....
    half of this site is people commenting on rumors by one analyst or another. Basically conjecture on conjecture. That's what a lot of people come to this site for - to debate topics with other interested people. 

    Half of this site is comprised of reasonable people making common sense deductions of what’s going on while the other half desperately try to twist things to always have Apple come out in the losing end. 
    tmayMplsP
  • Reply 87 of 127
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,823moderator
    sacto joe said:
    My guess is, Qualcomm finally put an offer on the table that dropped the "percentage of phone price" as the determinant of the cost of the chip.  But perhaps the price was higher than Apple would have insisted on had they won at trial, but it was lower than what they had been paying by enough to just end it.

    The details will be interesting though as I believe an in-house chip by Apple was coming within the next year or two.  Does this put that initiative on hold for six years, or does Apple retain the right to put its own chip in a certain percentage of iPhones just like they put Intel modems in a certain amount of them before?
    I think this is closer to the mark than "Qualcomm won, Apple lost". And if it's right, then Apple came out ahead in the medium and long term, while Qualcomm gets to live a while longer. 

    But I'll hold off on any more opinions for now. My go-to source is http://www.fosspatents.com and he hasn't weighed in on this yet.
    Apple’s ethics and willingness to stand its ground suggests to me that Apple would not have backed down without there being a deal struck that not only was palatable financially, but also cleared the double dipping issue central to its complaint.  

    But that does leave on the table a deal that still gives QC a percentage of the iPhone’s price.  That’s a pricing issue, not an ethical issue.  I would hope Apple negotiates well on this point, using the six year deal as a bargaining point.  

    I’m confident someone will leak details about the deal, in short order. 
    edited April 2019
  • Reply 88 of 127
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,241member
    gatorguy said:
    wood1208 said:
    Intel 5G chip will be under pressure. We still don't know details of settlement including money aspect.
    This will give Apple multiyear licensing agreement for Qualcomm chips and IP to build own 5G chip in future.
    Apparently a 6-year royalty license to the IP, tho no mention of a license to manufacture. I would guess that Apple is forgoing further development of their own chip for the near future, at least in any shipping device, since they've agreed to purchase QC chips for multiple years as part of this settlement. 
    You would be wrong.
    You are absolutely correct. Apple will continue development of their own modem for release in the near term.
  • Reply 89 of 127
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member
    sacto joe said:
    The truth very well could be they both blinked. 

    Apple, who right now is fighting negative press that people are tired of the new iPhone and see no need to upgrade and will still hold on to their older devices. They aren’t, but the adoption of new iPhones is slower than it has been in the past. For some people, they are holding out to see what replaces the XS line. To them, the XR is not the new phone they want. They want the XS, but at a XR price. 

    Apple is also concerned that the reports of a lack of a 5G roadmap will push potential upgrades away from them, so a deal to them was the lesser of 2 evils. Better to deal with the devil you know vis-à-vis Samsung. They know how to do it. 

    There are other news reports that Samsung is fairing better with the Galaxy S10 line, although I doubt it. There are many ads where carriers are giving away s10s when you buy one. That can’t be a good sign. Samsung is putting on a brave face, but they know they are in the same boat trying to sell a $1k phone.  It’s going to get worse when their folding phone ships this month. 

    For Qualcomm the risk was much higher. If this trial was to go forward, all of their strongarm tactics will be unveiled. Apple was lining up all of its upper management to show just how long and far Qualcomm has gone to intimidate Apple and other manufacturers into using their chips. Internal documents could have been unsealed and the rest of the world could see just how underhanded Qualcomm operates. This is why Samsung and others did side with Apple against Qualcomm in other cases. 

    So rather than taking a huge gamble in proceeding with this suit, Qualcomm has agreed to take less money, provide Apple chips it needs, keep it’s confidential agreements safe, and live to fight another day. 

    Apple won’t have to pay the ransom Qualcomm says it’s owed since they did lose that case. I’m sure the agreement covers letting that go or accepting a smaller amount in order to settle this case. 

    So now, Apple has a 5G plan if it decides to use Qualcomm chips and the tech media can now stop creating fud about Apple’s 5G future. 
    Conjecture piled on conjecture. If you really knew what Apple was concerned with, you'd be working for them, and you wouldn't be posting here.
    It was an interesting post nevertheless, unlike the inane bleating of conjecture when someone doesn’t like a post. This is a discussion forum where people will obviously engage in speculation. 
    radarthekatchemenginMplsPgatorguyhammeroftruthmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 90 of 127
    sacto joe said:
    Wow! Basically, Qualcomm blinked. This is going to be a positive for AAPL's price....although maybe the word had leaked out some time ago, and that would explain the big push upward for AAPL lately. Was this the worst kept secret in the world?

    Inquiring minds want to know…

    Interesting theory, but I somehow doubt it. The same people who had access to that secret would have been foolish to not invest in Qualcomm, whose stock would be expected to rise an even larger percentage than Apple’s, on news like this. 
    chemengin
  • Reply 91 of 127
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member

    Sadly the settlement takes the FRAND issue off the table. Just once I’d like to see one of these FRAND holders forced to license their ip on FRAND terms, and have a court determine how that apportionment works.  
    Isn’t that what Qualcomm are being sued for in seperate trials by the FTC and other agencies. 
  • Reply 92 of 127
    jbdragonjbdragon Posts: 2,297member
    Qualcomm Blinked...
    How do you know? Maybe Apple blinked. Maybe they both did. It says Apple is paying out money. What about that huge Refund Apple is suppose to have gotten and didn't?

    As for Apple discussions. Apple could have not talked to them in months. Now as trial is starting up, one or the other blinked. Was it Apple or Qualcomm? One of them didn't want to see this going to trial. I'm leaning on Qualcomm as I think they had more to lose. Like basing their prices on the overall cost of the phone and not the FRAND patent cost. If Apple wins, costs for everyone else could be dropping also.

    There's not much to go on. I don't see people talking out the terms to the public at large. May not ever find out what really happened, or in 8 years or whatever when the contract expires and there's another fight once again.
    edited April 2019 chemengin
  • Reply 93 of 127
    emoelleremoeller Posts: 570member
    And now Intel has exited the mobile 5G modem market!   

    At this time it looks like this is a solid win for Qualcom - settled Apple/Supplier  lawsuits AND bumped off a major competitor (Intel)  But I wouldn't be surprised if Apple isn't playing the long game in that they now will be able to integrate all of Qualcom's IP in Apple's new chipsets....
  • Reply 94 of 127
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,088member
    tmay said:
    gatorguy said:
    wood1208 said:
    Intel 5G chip will be under pressure. We still don't know details of settlement including money aspect.
    This will give Apple multiyear licensing agreement for Qualcomm chips and IP to build own 5G chip in future.
    Apparently a 6-year royalty license to the IP, tho no mention of a license to manufacture. I would guess that Apple is forgoing further development of their own chip for the near future, at least in any shipping device, since they've agreed to purchase QC chips for multiple years as part of this settlement. 
    You would be wrong.
    You are absolutely correct. Apple will continue development of their own modem for release in the near term.
    I did not say I believed Apple would be stopping wifi chipset development. I qualified that by saying in a shipping device.

    Of course they'll be investigating their own chipset, other companies likely are too, but the chances of seeing it in use in the next 5 years just went down with the Qualcomm settlement...
    In my opinion.  
  • Reply 95 of 127
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,088member
    asdasd said:
    sacto joe said:
    The truth very well could be they both blinked. 

    Apple, who right now is fighting negative press that people are tired of the new iPhone and see no need to upgrade and will still hold on to their older devices. They aren’t, but the adoption of new iPhones is slower than it has been in the past. For some people, they are holding out to see what replaces the XS line. To them, the XR is not the new phone they want. They want the XS, but at a XR price. 

    Apple is also concerned that the reports of a lack of a 5G roadmap will push potential upgrades away from them, so a deal to them was the lesser of 2 evils. Better to deal with the devil you know vis-à-vis Samsung. They know how to do it. 

    There are other news reports that Samsung is fairing better with the Galaxy S10 line, although I doubt it. There are many ads where carriers are giving away s10s when you buy one. That can’t be a good sign. Samsung is putting on a brave face, but they know they are in the same boat trying to sell a $1k phone.  It’s going to get worse when their folding phone ships this month. 

    For Qualcomm the risk was much higher. If this trial was to go forward, all of their strongarm tactics will be unveiled. Apple was lining up all of its upper management to show just how long and far Qualcomm has gone to intimidate Apple and other manufacturers into using their chips. Internal documents could have been unsealed and the rest of the world could see just how underhanded Qualcomm operates. This is why Samsung and others did side with Apple against Qualcomm in other cases. 

    So rather than taking a huge gamble in proceeding with this suit, Qualcomm has agreed to take less money, provide Apple chips it needs, keep it’s confidential agreements safe, and live to fight another day. 

    Apple won’t have to pay the ransom Qualcomm says it’s owed since they did lose that case. I’m sure the agreement covers letting that go or accepting a smaller amount in order to settle this case. 

    So now, Apple has a 5G plan if it decides to use Qualcomm chips and the tech media can now stop creating fud about Apple’s 5G future. 
    Conjecture piled on conjecture. If you really knew what Apple was concerned with, you'd be working for them, and you wouldn't be posting here.
    It was an interesting post nevertheless, unlike the inane bleating of conjecture when someone doesn’t like a post. This is a discussion forum where people will obviously engage in speculation. 
    +1
  • Reply 96 of 127
    thttht Posts: 5,352member
    emoeller said:
    And now Intel has exited the mobile 5G modem market!   

    At this time it looks like this is a solid win for Qualcom - settled Apple/Supplier  lawsuits AND bumped off a major competitor (Intel)  But I wouldn't be surprised if Apple isn't playing the long game in that they now will be able to integrate all of Qualcom's IP in Apple's new chipsets....
    Yeah. Dominoes fell fast and furious here. 

    Qualcomm is now the sole supplier of cellular modems in the USA, right?

    Zero chance of Huawei being able to sell modems in the USA market. Samsung? Mediatek? Broadcom maybe starts in the business?

    I can’t see how Apple can let this stand, and not do their own modem. Who knows maybe we’ll hear Apple laying off people in San Diego next, but it would be crazy for them to do that. That custom modem is the only leverage they have now. 
  • Reply 97 of 127
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,088member
    tht said:
    gatorguy said:
    wood1208 said:
    Intel 5G chip will be under pressure. We still don't know details of settlement including money aspect.
    This will give Apple multiyear licensing agreement for Qualcomm chips and IP to build own 5G chip in future.
    Apparently a 6-year royalty license to the IP, tho no mention of a license to manufacture. I would guess that Apple is forgoing further development of their own chip for the near future, at least in any shipping device, since they've agreed to purchase QC chips for multiple years as part of this settlement. 
    I wouldn’t bet on either of these scenarios.
    In the future, Apple will continue to use Intel modems
    Apparently not.
    edited April 2019
  • Reply 98 of 127
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member
    emoeller said:
    And now Intel has exited the mobile 5G modem market!   

    At this time it looks like this is a solid win for Qualcom - settled Apple/Supplier  lawsuits AND bumped off a major competitor (Intel)  But I wouldn't be surprised if Apple isn't playing the long game in that they now will be able to integrate all of Qualcom's IP in Apple's new chipsets....
    Some speculation on twitter that Intel made this decision before today and recently informed Apple (but not I assume Qualcomm as they have no supplier agreement there).

    Hence, Apple rushes to an agreement which is more favourable to them than if Qualcomm knew.  And locks in 6 years. 

    Seems reasonable but it is I admit even more conjecture. 
    edited April 2019
  • Reply 99 of 127
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,088member
    chasm said:
    wood1208 said:
    Intel 5G chip will be under pressure. We still don't know details of settlement including money aspect.
    This will give Apple multiyear licensing agreement for Qualcomm chips and IP to build own 5G chip in future.
    I would be very surprised if Qualcomm won more than 50 percent of Apple's 5G business after this.
    I'd be prepared to be surprised then. 
    edited April 2019
  • Reply 100 of 127
    thttht Posts: 5,352member
    gatorguy said:
    tht said:
    gatorguy said:
    wood1208 said:
    Intel 5G chip will be under pressure. We still don't know details of settlement including money aspect.
    This will give Apple multiyear licensing agreement for Qualcomm chips and IP to build own 5G chip in future.
    Apparently a 6-year royalty license to the IP, tho no mention of a license to manufacture. I would guess that Apple is forgoing further development of their own chip for the near future, at least in any shipping device, since they've agreed to purchase QC chips for multiple years as part of this settlement. 
    I wouldn’t bet on either of these scenarios.
    In the future, Apple will continue to use Intel modems
    Apparently not.
    Yup. Got that wrong. I’m still surprise at Intel’s struggles right now. 
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