Editorial: Can Apple News+ kill 'fake news' and save journalism?

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 79
    correctionscorrections Posts: 1,363member
    "File sharing was initially regarded as illegal."   Tell that to this Minnesota woman who is the subject of this 2006 report from The Guardian,

    "A Minnesota woman, one of the last people to be individually prosecuted in the US for illegal downloading and file-sharing, faces a $220,000 bill after a federal court ruling on Tuesday.

    The federal appeals court reversed a district court's decision to reduce Jammie Thomas-Rasset's owed damages to $54,000 from $1.5m. Tuesday's ruling (pdf) sets the damages at $220,000 and forbids Thomas-Rasset from making sound recordings available for distribution."

    2006 was half a decade after the iPod came out. Napster peaked, got sued and then was out of business in the summer of 2001 right as iPod was arriving. 1998-2001 was early file trading.  

    The world changes fast. Two years ago the USA was a liberal democracy. Now it’s a religio-fascist republic where votes don’t matter and white supremacists are indoctrinated by state TV to unthinkingly march to  nationalist socialism—with a planned economy laid out by a flamboyant figurehead who seized power and wants to scuttle all checks and balances of the legislative branch and fill the courts with one political party while refuting science because he has a “good brain.” 

    I wrote an article about digital magazines and newspapers and the comments are all demanding to know why “liberals” are censoring their TV and also why their 75+ year old king is not getting glorified on the TV outside of the only thing they watch. Sad. 
    kruegdudeDAalseth
  • Reply 42 of 79
    "File sharing was initially regarded as illegal."   Tell that to this Minnesota woman who is the subject of this 2006 report from The Guardian,

    "A Minnesota woman, one of the last people to be individually prosecuted in the US for illegal downloading and file-sharing, faces a $220,000 bill after a federal court ruling on Tuesday.

    The federal appeals court reversed a district court's decision to reduce Jammie Thomas-Rasset's owed damages to $54,000 from $1.5m. Tuesday's ruling (pdf) sets the damages at $220,000 and forbids Thomas-Rasset from making sound recordings available for distribution."

    2006 was half a decade after the iPod came out. Napster peaked, got sued and then was out of business in the summer of 2001 right as iPod was arriving. 1998-2001 was early file trading.  

    The world changes fast. Two years ago the USA was a liberal democracy. Now it’s a religio-fascist republic where votes don’t matter and white supremacists are indoctrinated by state TV to unthinkingly march to  nationalist socialism—with a planned economy laid out by a flamboyant figurehead who seized power and wants to scuttle all checks and balances of the legislative branch and fill the courts with one political party while refuting science because he has a “good brain.” 

    I wrote an article about digital magazines and newspapers and the comments are all demanding to know why “liberals” are censoring their TV and also why their 75+ year old king is not getting glorified on the TV outside of the only thing they watch. Sad. 
    So, Corrections the Minnesota woman was fines $200K because file sharing was illegal.  It was a form of stealing.   Napster went out of business because its business was theft.  Your last sentence again, like last time, explores new frontiers in incoherence.
    cgWerksSpamSandwich
  • Reply 43 of 79
    MisterKitMisterKit Posts: 263member
    I don’t see a clear path going forward for a coherent fact based presentation of news that offers up a good business model.

    Apple News+ is a pretty good attempt but I wasn’t too knocked out after giving it a free trial. The magazines are really good but it didn’t draw me in for regular reading. Lacking more top shelf news sources was a letdown.

    If Apple refines News+ I may try it again in the future.
  • Reply 44 of 79
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 8,680member
    corrections said:Now it’s a religio-fascist republic where votes don’t matter and white supremacists are indoctrinated by state TV to unthinkingly march to  nationalist socialism—with a planned economy laid out by a flamboyant figurehead who seized power and wants to scuttle all checks and balances of the legislative branch and fill the courts with one political party while refuting science because he has a “good brain.” 
    It sounds like you've been watching too much of the Handmaid's Tale and not realizing that it's just a fictional series.

    Trump won fair and square, he didn't seize power, what a ridiculous thing to claim. It's the sorelosers who still can't accept reality and get over their loss. Any talk of Russia is complete nonsense and a few facebook ads bought for tiny sums amounting to thousands of dollars is complete peanuts and had zero effect on any election.

    The sorelosers spent billions and still lost. And the main interference in the election has been from the sorelosers with their hoaxes and fake dossiers perpetrated by the side that lost. They cheated and they still lost. The stupid is really strong with that side.

    And the economy is doing great, with less regulations and less hindrances for businesses. It's the other party that wants more regulation, higher taxes and state control over everything, including the private sector.

    And claiming that there is no bias against conservatives on either Facebook or Twitter is also complete nonsense, as there are examples almost daily of discrimination, and nobody buys their excuses that a "mistake" was made anymore, because those "mistakes" always seem to only target one side. Hate speech to a leftist is basically anything that they disagree with, including the term "learn to code", meanwhile they are free to make actual death threats on twitter and nothing seems to ever happen to them. I guess that death threats and threats of actual violence are ok, as long as it's coming from a liberal.

    The liberal fake news dominance and their censorship fetish is getting less effective for each day that passes, and that's a wonderful thing. I'd like to see some of them go out of business soon, that would be fantastic. 
    edited May 12 cgWerksjeffythequickdesignr
  • Reply 45 of 79
    22july201322july2013 Posts: 716member
    If curation is censorship, then let the people decide. Specifically, Apple should let its users decide on an individual basis if they want their news curated or not. That's a win-win scenario. I want to pay for my uncensored news, but I also want to be anonymous to the people I'm paying, which no existing paid news service permits except Apple News. So right now I'm stuck with Apple. It's not my first choice, but it's my only choice. Apple is the only company on earth that respects my privacy in this way. I don't see anyone else who will take my money and respect my privacy. I'm begging people to take my money and only Apple will take it. Am I the only person on the planet that wants News, privacy, and non-censorship? 
  • Reply 46 of 79
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,243member
    corrections said:
    The world changes fast. Two years ago the USA was a liberal democracy. Now it’s a religio-fascist republic where votes don’t matter and white supremacists are indoctrinated by state TV to unthinkingly march to  nationalist socialism—with a planned economy laid out by a flamboyant figurehead who seized power and wants to scuttle all checks and balances of the legislative branch and fill the courts with one political party while refuting science because he has a “good brain.”
    LOL, I think you need some new media sources, for sure! The USA was never (nor was it intended to be) a liberal democracy. And, I guess 'white supremicists' are literally coming out of the woodwork if you watch the MSM, huh? Fill the courts with one political party? Would that be the Constitutional realists (vs the postmodern 'living document-ist' make it say what you want it to say-ists)? Refuting science? Wow, just wow.


    apple ][ said:
    It sounds like you've been watching too much of the Handmaid's Tale and not realizing that it's just a fictional series.
    No doubt! And the ironic thing is given what they stated, they painted the conservatives as being out of touch and overreacting. LOL

    apple ][ said:
    And the economy is doing great, with less regulations and less hindrances for businesses. It's the other party that wants more regulation, higher taxes and state control over everything, including the private sector.
    To be fair (and consistent), the numbers are kind of out of touch with reality. Trump was skeptical of them when Obama was touting them, but now likes to brag about them. Whatever the poor metric is, I guess it has improved. But, I'm not sure the economy is really doing as well as they say. (for example, they don't actually count all the longer-term jobless people)

    apple ][ said:
    Hate speech to a leftist is basically anything that they disagree with, including the term "learn to code", meanwhile they are free to make actual death threats on twitter and nothing seems to ever happen to them. I guess that death threats and threats of actual violence are ok, as long as it's coming from a liberal.
    This is the point that bothers me the most about the stuff at FB, Google, etc. They are private companies, so I guess they can decide what the rules are. But, if so, they aren't applying the equally, or even close to it. If you're going to kick off a conservative because they are 'spreading hate' by not approving of something someone does, or presenting an opinion some other group doesn't like, then certainly some of the vile outright hateful stuff that comes from the liberals should get booted too... and I'm not just talking all the low-follower accounts they can't possibly police, but big name celebrities, talk-show hosts, etc. that FB and Google should certainly be aware of because what they say is being talked about in the media!

    Apple is the only company on earth that respects my privacy in this way. I don't see anyone else who will take my money and respect my privacy. I'm begging people to take my money and only Apple will take it. Am I the only person on the planet that wants News, privacy, and non-censorship? 
    I know podcasters and independent journalists who would be happy for you to donate, let alone not want to take your money. AFAIK, they respect your privacy, too. If you want these thing, you're looking to the wrong sources, whether you go directly, or whether Apple distributes them. The MSM is not only biased (so will censor), but also ad-driven (so will censor). Since they are ad-driven, they'll also not respect your privacy (which, I suppose Apple helps a bit). Which, is going to color (to outright distort) your news if that is what you're ultimately after.

    edited May 13
  • Reply 47 of 79
    clemynxclemynx Posts: 1,510member
    Oddly I never had fake news problems on Apple News but since News+ came out I have seen at least 3 articles denying human responsibility on climate change. That kind of nonsense has no place on any serious service. 
    corrections
  • Reply 48 of 79
    toysandmetoysandme Posts: 215member
    apple ][ said:
    Any news content curated by leftists will indeed be fake news.

    All of the major news outlets have been engaging in fake news for years now, pushing a hoax.

    Apple also donates to questionable hate groups such as the SPLC. 

    I like Apple products a whole lot, but I will definitely be passing on anything that's related to news and curated by Apple.

    Thanks for saying this. I love Apple products and AAPL is part of my portfolio but I was really pissed off when Tim Cook said he'd donate some of MY money to the SPCL. Questionable? Hardly. Judge for yourself starting here on the Washington Post:

    The Southern Poverty Law Center has lost all credibility

    https://wapo.st/2IBpTQW

    So where do you go for trusted news? Social media is extremely censored by the usual suspects, so you have to move towards the politically incorrect sources to find a bit of honesty, often with a lot of humor. Sadly, George Carlin is no longer with us. But the Jimmy Dore show on YouTube is interesting. My favorite though is thejuicemedia from Australia, e.g.

    https://youtu.be/1efOs0BsE0g

    Comedian Lee Camp is also interesting. For a more serious format, Abby Martin and Caitlin Johnstone are worth following. The MSM is still useful to keep an eye on yesterday's weather and tomorrow's wars.

    designr
  • Reply 49 of 79
    nubusnubus Posts: 54member
    Comparing print media to music is odd. The music industry never held any relation to buyers. You bought their music - end of transaction.
    In print media the subscriber data, permissions, and advertising are gold. Apple won't provide any of those on News+. To media this is worse than iOS "Newsstand" which completely failed. Some (most?) magazines are not created for readers. They are created for advertisers to reach an audience. If the publisher can't prove that it finds that audience... then it won't sell the adverts. This is worse than plain WWW.

    Music made the transition to digital by going from albums to the sale of singles through iTunes and plays through Spotify. News+ doesn't take print media from issues to stories. It doesn't let you easily mix stories across titles or issues. News+ also seems lacking on story search and reading recommendations between titles (if you liked this story then you might want to read - and offer reads of different lengths).

    It just won't work until the media agree on a story format (like the music single), to switch from issue publishing to smaller content packages, to use dynamic advertising (old stories have value - but make sure the adverts are new), to adjust stories for the screen (not really needed for iPad), and for Apple to do story recommendation. All and more have to come together. News+ doesn't do that. It just bundles something that doesn't work into an all-you-can-eat buffet.
    cgWerks
  • Reply 50 of 79
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,243member
    clemynx said:
    Oddly I never had fake news problems on Apple News but since News+ came out I have seen at least 3 articles denying human responsibility on climate change. That kind of nonsense has no place on any serious service. 
    Were they denying *any* human responsibility, or simply trying not to go all hysterical, as most of the MSM does? (Note: that 97% scientists figure that gets bandied around is simply agreement that there is warming, and that humans contribute some part of that warming... I don't even know many skeptics and 'deniers' who don't agree with that.)

    But, more to the point, who gets to decide what gets published and what doesn't, especially when the issue is controversial? This is what actually causes a lot of the problems and 'conspiracy theories' because the issue isn't being dealt with directly and honestly. Whenever I see those kind of tactics employed, I instantly become skeptical, and then those in the power-position have to bear a higher burden of proof (as if your position is correct, and you are in power, you shouldn't have to censor your opponents. It's when your position is weak, and you're afraid of losing power/control, that censorship often happens).

    toysandme said:
    I love Apple products and AAPL is part of my portfolio but I was really pissed off when Tim Cook said he'd donate some of MY money to the SPCL.
    I could be mistaken, but didn't he donate his own money? Yeah, if he spent Apple's money supporting a terror organization, he should be accountable to the shareholders (of which I'd hope at least some of them would be pissed).

    toysandme said:
    So where do you go for trusted news? Social media is extremely censored by the usual suspects, so you have to move towards the politically incorrect sources to find a bit of honesty, often with a lot of humor.
    I think you're correct about comedy, but I also wonder if some of the 'conspiracy theory' stuff goes there a bit purposely, so as to communicate some of the real stories via a medium that isn't seen as enough of a threat to take out, because they can be easily written off as crazy by the powers that be.

    One of my favorites is No Agenda. They sometimes come up with some kind of crazy opinions of what is going on (though they have turned out right more than I'd have thought when I stated listening), but they also uncover SO much of the media bias, mistakes, and outright lies/propaganda, that it is well worth sorting through the rest for it.

    And, be sure to check out Congressional Dish podcast. I sometimes worry about the host's safety, as she works tirelessly to uncover what Congress would rather you not know they are doing. I'm not even of the same political persuasion, but she deserves huge kudos and support for taking on the task.

    I think if you listened to those two, and then did a bit of research here and there, you'd pretty much know what is going on in the world AND start to recognize just how bad the MSM really is.

    clemynx said:
    Oh please, stop sucking Trump's ----, you --- ----- ----. 
    Typical swollen amygdala response from an MSM consumer. :neutral: 
    I think it is the grand display of logic, mastery of the subject matter, and precise use of the English language that makes it such an effective response.
    designr
  • Reply 51 of 79
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,243member
    nubus said:
    Comparing print media to music is odd. The music industry never held any relation to buyers. You bought their music - end of transaction.
    In print media the subscriber data, permissions, and advertising are gold. Apple won't provide any of those on News+. To media this is worse than iOS "Newsstand" which completely failed. Some (most?) magazines are not created for readers. They are created for advertisers to reach an audience. If the publisher can't prove that it finds that audience... then it won't sell the adverts. This is worse than plain WWW.

    Music made the transition to digital by going from albums to the sale of singles through iTunes and plays through Spotify. News+ doesn't take print media from issues to stories. It doesn't let you easily mix stories across titles or issues. News+ also seems lacking on story search and reading recommendations between titles (if you liked this story then you might want to read - and offer reads of different lengths).

    It just won't work until the media agree on a story format (like the music single), to switch from issue publishing to smaller content packages, to use dynamic advertising (old stories have value - but make sure the adverts are new), to adjust stories for the screen (not really needed for iPad), and for Apple to do story recommendation. All and more have to come together. News+ doesn't do that. It just bundles something that doesn't work into an all-you-can-eat buffet.
    Yes, but much of that is also what is wrong with traditional media.

    The only way I could see Apple News+ to fix that, and succeed, is actually if they get away from being so MSM-centric. Like, if real journalists could use it to get paid for doing real work, become recognized, and popular. Is it setup to help that kind of thing?
  • Reply 52 of 79
    kruegdudekruegdude Posts: 340member
    An unusually enjoyable article. I usually like reading Daniels work but this one stood out for me. I’ve been reading News+ for a while and man is there a lot of excellent content. I guess that’s why it struck home. It’s really good to see that there’s still good, enjoyable reads out there. Unlike what appears to be an increasing number of comments whose only intent seems to be to reduce the collective IQ of the human race. Had to reset my brain after reading a number of these comments. I’m sure that was the intent. BTW, has anyone else watched the first episode of “Chernobyl”?
    corrections
  • Reply 53 of 79
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 8,680member
    cgWerks said:
    clemynx said:
    Oh please, stop sucking Trump's ----, you --- ----- ----. 
    Typical swollen amygdala response from an MSM consumer. :neutral: 
    I think it is the grand display of logic, mastery of the subject matter, and precise use of the English language that makes it such an effective response.
    It's a typical, but not very surprising response from what can be considered the average leftist, whose intellectual capabilities, reasoning skills and maturity level are highly desirable traits that are no doubt sought after by all. 

    I also find it pretty funny that leftists, you know, the so-called tolerant ones, or so they claim, constantly like to accuse others of homophobia, racism etc., yet to them, gays are merely cheap props to be used in their insults and attacks against others. 

    Very telling indeed.
    SpamSandwichchemengincgWerks
  • Reply 54 of 79
    steveausteveau Posts: 238member
    If Apple News is presenting CNN, MSNBC and the major news networks, and then censoring others, they are in fact directly promoting Fake News, since those outlets are the major sources of fake news. So how exactly will Apple 'save journalism'?
    Let's all agitate for Nexus, the best alternative news mag, to be available on News+.
  • Reply 55 of 79
    LatkoLatko Posts: 398member
    With Tim Cook constantly and vigorously taking political and ethical stance, to the level of (selective) evangelism, he’s in fact disqualifing Apple as an independent News supplier/curator
    Which is just one reason he should refrain from it.
    edited May 13 SpamSandwichdesignrchemengin
  • Reply 56 of 79

    Only journalists can save journalism.

    When one turns on the 5 major news outlets (CBS/NBC/ABC/CNN/Fox) and sees the hard news (not the opinion people like Scarborough/Hannity, etc) people saying the exact same phrases (it's been going on for a long time...the word "gravitas" was foisted upon us in 1988 by the big 4 (first 4 from the previous list) repeating it over and over... and it was said in one of the major party's talking points) over and over, and presenting one side of the story without presenting a valid point from the other side.  Other "sins" are:

    • Presenting something inherently incorrect and when the incorrect information is revealed (let's say 10 seconds later on the same video that was replayed ad nauseum) that the exact opposite situation happened.  When it is revealed that the contradicting information is revealed, the story is quickly dropped with exactly one apology.
    • Taking the worst of one side and presenting it as the standard of that side.
    • Minimizing the amount of peaceful demonstrators, and concentrating on those that were not peaceful.
    • Minimizing those that incite violence in a crowd, and blaming those on another side as the instigators.
    • Not questioning why authorities made calls to have police forces stand down when two sides (one side disarmed when they had to attend an event, the violent side waiting for them when they exited an arena, forced to walk through that agitated crowd) are forced.
    • Asking one side (relatively) softball questions and the other side ad hominem questions, or better yet, making journalists submit their questions and then selecting journalists that ask questions that the elected official wants to answer. 
    • Selective editing to make one side look bad (i.e. having 2 hours of interview material and using the worst 4 minutes), and the other look good.
    • Asking relatives of an elected official to comment on personal conversations between them and the elected official.

    This isn't new in America.  Having government or another entity (editors) filter the news for me is where my red flag goes up.  Biases will be invoked, and here's the thing... Journalists, if you report all the facts and some disagree with your biases, then you're a real journalist.  If all of the facts agree with your biases, check your sources.

    SpamSandwichcorrectionsdesignrcgWerks
  • Reply 57 of 79
    clemynx said:
    Oddly I never had fake news problems on Apple News but since News+ came out I have seen at least 3 articles denying human responsibility on climate change. That kind of nonsense has no place on any serious service. 
    Your comment has no place on any serious service.   Science is about argument and seeking truth.  It is never about silencing debate.  Except when it has been hijacked by fake scientists.  If you are too weak to read articles with different viewpoints, then that is your problem.  Maybe you should develop a thicker skin.  
    jeffythequickSpamSandwichdesignrcgWerks
  • Reply 58 of 79
    clemynx said:
    apple ][ said:
    corrections said:Now it’s a religio-fascist republic where votes don’t matter and white supremacists are indoctrinated by state TV to unthinkingly march to  nationalist socialism—with a planned economy laid out by a flamboyant figurehead who seized power and wants to scuttle all checks and balances of the legislative branch and fill the courts with one political party while refuting science because he has a “good brain.” 
    It sounds like you've been watching too much of the Handmaid's Tale and not realizing that it's just a fictional series.

    Trump won fair and square, he didn't seize power, what a ridiculous thing to claim. It's the sorelosers who still can't accept reality and get over their loss. Any talk of Russia is complete nonsense and a few facebook ads bought for tiny sums amounting to thousands of dollars is complete peanuts and had zero effect on any election.

    The sorelosers spent billions and still lost. And the main interference in the election has been from the sorelosers with their hoaxes and fake dossiers perpetrated by the side that lost. They cheated and they still lost. The stupid is really strong with that side.

    And the economy is doing great, with less regulations and less hindrances for businesses. It's the other party that wants more regulation, higher taxes and state control over everything, including the private sector.

    And claiming that there is no bias against conservatives on either Facebook or Twitter is also complete nonsense, as there are examples almost daily of discrimination, and nobody buys their excuses that a "mistake" was made anymore, because those "mistakes" always seem to only target one side. Hate speech to a leftist is basically anything that they disagree with, including the term "learn to code", meanwhile they are free to make actual death threats on twitter and nothing seems to ever happen to them. I guess that death threats and threats of actual violence are ok, as long as it's coming from a liberal.

    The liberal fake news dominance and their censorship fetish is getting less effective for each day that passes, and that's a wonderful thing. I'd like to see some of them go out of business soon, that would be fantastic. 

    Oh please, stop sucking Trump's cock, you old obese fart. 

    Now, that is pure hate and intolerance.  For the record, I don't think comments like the above, which are vile and pure hate, should be censored.  We can learn about what makes up each political faction by reading what they write.  And we can and should draw conclusions.  This type of hate is common today and it is most common on one side of the debate.   Frequently, those with such hate have TOLERANCE bumper stickers on their cars.  That is always ironic.
    jeffythequickSpamSandwichcgWerks
  • Reply 59 of 79
    clemynx said:
    apple ][ said:
    corrections said:Now it’s a religio-fascist republic where votes don’t matter and white supremacists are indoctrinated by state TV to unthinkingly march to  nationalist socialism—with a planned economy laid out by a flamboyant figurehead who seized power and wants to scuttle all checks and balances of the legislative branch and fill the courts with one political party while refuting science because he has a “good brain.” 
    It sounds like you've been watching too much of the Handmaid's Tale and not realizing that it's just a fictional series.

    Trump won fair and square, he didn't seize power, what a ridiculous thing to claim. It's the sorelosers who still can't accept reality and get over their loss. Any talk of Russia is complete nonsense and a few facebook ads bought for tiny sums amounting to thousands of dollars is complete peanuts and had zero effect on any election.

    The sorelosers spent billions and still lost. And the main interference in the election has been from the sorelosers with their hoaxes and fake dossiers perpetrated by the side that lost. They cheated and they still lost. The stupid is really strong with that side.

    And the economy is doing great, with less regulations and less hindrances for businesses. It's the other party that wants more regulation, higher taxes and state control over everything, including the private sector.

    And claiming that there is no bias against conservatives on either Facebook or Twitter is also complete nonsense, as there are examples almost daily of discrimination, and nobody buys their excuses that a "mistake" was made anymore, because those "mistakes" always seem to only target one side. Hate speech to a leftist is basically anything that they disagree with, including the term "learn to code", meanwhile they are free to make actual death threats on twitter and nothing seems to ever happen to them. I guess that death threats and threats of actual violence are ok, as long as it's coming from a liberal.

    The liberal fake news dominance and their censorship fetish is getting less effective for each day that passes, and that's a wonderful thing. I'd like to see some of them go out of business soon, that would be fantastic. 

    Oh please, stop sucking Trump's cock, you old obese fart. 

    Now, that is pure hate and intolerance.  For the record, I don't think comments like the above, which are vile and pure hate, should be censored.  We can learn about what makes up each political faction by reading what they write.  And we can and should draw conclusions.  This type of hate is common today and it is most common on one side of the debate.   Frequently, those with such hate have TOLERANCE bumper stickers on their cars.  That is always ironic.

    I marked it as "informative" as what comes out of peoples' mouth (or keyboard) says more about them than it does about me.
    SpamSandwichdesignrcgWerks
  • Reply 60 of 79
    spacekidspacekid Posts: 172member
    Journalism is already dead. When you see major news media outlets suppress news that favorable to President Trump, make numerous mistakes against Trump they later have to retract with less publicity, only report facts that support their side, don't report facts critical of their side, journalism is gone. Studies have already shown that Google search results favor liberal sites such as CNN even though their accuracy and quality of news reporting has been extremely poor.

    An example is with the announcement of the Green New Deal, most news media was praising it, but none have stated how much it will actually lower earth's temperature. For the US to spend something like $93 trillion and there's no critique of what you're getting for your money is irresponsible.
    KentfromohioSpamSandwichdesignrcgWerks
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