Apple's new protections for kids could force PBS to pull its apps

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 34
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 9,634member
    Everybody wants our data and Apple is trying to contain that. Hence the clamor for breaking up the App Store and its rules. PBS's rep looks like they are getting ready to say Apple should not implement this policy.
    edited June 2019
  • Reply 22 of 34
    jbdragonjbdragon Posts: 2,246member
    Instead of spying on kids, Charge for the apps. I have no problem paying for good apps. I'd rather do that any day of the week then be spied on to make it free let alone a freemium app. You can even do a Subscription just to keep the money coming in. Not a lot, say $5.99 for the year. Maybe all they use that app for is 3 months or 6 months and moved on, but you have your money. If it's a app a kid will be using longer than a year, well you get another $5.99. This way you don't get that one time $5.99 and then forever free updates and very little money coming in that it's not worth working on the app. As it is PBS, it shouldn't cost a whole lot. Stop spying on kids. Really, should stop spying on everyone.
  • Reply 23 of 34
    jbdragon said:
    Instead of spying on kids, Charge for the apps. I have no problem paying for good apps. I'd rather do that any day of the week then be spied on to make it free let alone a freemium app. You can even do a Subscription just to keep the money coming in. Not a lot, say $5.99 for the year. Maybe all they use that app for is 3 months or 6 months and moved on, but you have your money. If it's a app a kid will be using longer than a year, well you get another $5.99. This way you don't get that one time $5.99 and then forever free updates and very little money coming in that it's not worth working on the app. As it is PBS, it shouldn't cost a whole lot. Stop spying on kids. Really, should stop spying on everyone.
    We need to stop with the "think about the kids" rhetoric and actually pay attention to what's being said.  Charging for apps does not mean an absence of analytics.  I'd bet there isn't a single paid app on your phone, table, or computer that doesn't use app analytics to manage the "well being" of their app.  Besides, what spying is PBS doing? 
    simbalion
  • Reply 24 of 34
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 11,764member
    simbalion said:
    Notsofast said:
    simbalion said:
    Both the commenters above probably aren’t aware at how dependent modern day apps and websites are on third party analytics and behavioral analytics software. Think simple ones like google analytics, mixpanel. More advanced ones like fullstory.

    for the most part these are not insidious money grubbing moves by pbs and actually are used by product teams to understand things like what features aren’t being used etc. 

    im hoping Apple isn’t just taking this blanket ban as a PR move and unreasonably taking this weird stance against these innocuous tools. 
    LOL. Google Analytics is a tracker that is placed on almost all web sites that captures your personal data about your web searches, clicks, etc.,cross site tracks you, and then sends that data back to Google for inclusion into your virtual dossier.
    It wasn’t the best example to use but my point still stands. Good or bad, modern tech organizations rely heavily on third party analytics and other tools. All these tools are now considered “third parties.”

    It might be “easy” to wire your own tools but those days are long past. I remember when we built all those kinds of tools in house ten years ago but the modern trend is that all those tools are basically outsourced to third parties. 
    Then find a third-party app analytics tool that isn't based on data-sharing with an advertising company. Problem solved.
    docno42
  • Reply 25 of 34
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 11,764member
    spice-boy said:
    sgordon said:
    Well I’m going to side with apple here. Why is pbs collecting data without parental consent ?
    Like pretty much everyone who reads AI regardless if Apple is wrong. 
    Silly nonsense. If anything, what you're seeing is the consumer trust Apple has earned from regular readers of AI. They have demonstrated time and time again to me that their position is reasonable, and that in similar stories like this in the past that the devs are leaving things out while building their victim-narrative. 

    If you expect readers here to initial assume Apple is lying, then I don't know what to tell you... MacRumors?
  • Reply 26 of 34
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 11,764member

    entropys said:
    Just from a cursory reading of the article it's pretty clear PBS thinks they'll be in violation of the prohibition against app analytics.  Paraphrasing here, but she said "we won't be able to tell if our apps or working or be able to improve them"

    Why do do they need analytics in the app to do that? The content is, after all, streamed from their servers. 
    The same reasons any app needs analytics.  Which content is being viewed most often?  Which gets the least views?  What type of content is most popular?  How are videos most often chosen?  How deep into the menus to people go for content?  Do we get more engagement from vertical scrolling or horizontal?  What type of content has the most screen on time?  These are just a few examples.  I am sure an actual dev could come up with dozens more.  Point being, if you don't know what people like/dislike about your content it doesn't get improved.  Why do you think streaming apps like Netflix, Apple Music, Spotify, Youtube, etc. change their interface from time to time?  Analytics.
    Your questions about content do not require client app analytics to know the answer to. The content is server-side streamed, and those analytics and can and likely already are collected & studied from the server-side. This has been the case since server-side web serving became a rising platform twenty years ago. No new problem to solve there.
  • Reply 27 of 34

    entropys said:
    Just from a cursory reading of the article it's pretty clear PBS thinks they'll be in violation of the prohibition against app analytics.  Paraphrasing here, but she said "we won't be able to tell if our apps or working or be able to improve them"

    Why do do they need analytics in the app to do that? The content is, after all, streamed from their servers. 
    The same reasons any app needs analytics.  Which content is being viewed most often?  Which gets the least views?  What type of content is most popular?  How are videos most often chosen?  How deep into the menus to people go for content?  Do we get more engagement from vertical scrolling or horizontal?  What type of content has the most screen on time?  These are just a few examples.  I am sure an actual dev could come up with dozens more.  Point being, if you don't know what people like/dislike about your content it doesn't get improved.  Why do you think streaming apps like Netflix, Apple Music, Spotify, Youtube, etc. change their interface from time to time?  Analytics.
    Your questions about content do not require client app analytics to know the answer to. The content is server-side streamed, and those analytics and can and likely already are collected & studied from the server-side. This has been the case since server-side web serving became a rising platform twenty years ago. No new problem to solve there.
    As I said, those are just examples and I am not a dev.  They also have more than just a streaming app.  They have 6 apps on the App Store.  App analytics are a valid way to evaluate the effectiveness of an app.    There is nothing inherently bad about it.  
  • Reply 28 of 34
    jbdragon said:
    Instead of spying on kids, Charge for the apps. I have no problem paying for good apps. I'd rather do that any day of the week then be spied on to make it free let alone a freemium app. You can even do a Subscription just to keep the money coming in. Not a lot, say $5.99 for the year. Maybe all they use that app for is 3 months or 6 months and moved on, but you have your money. If it's a app a kid will be using longer than a year, well you get another $5.99. This way you don't get that one time $5.99 and then forever free updates and very little money coming in that it's not worth working on the app. As it is PBS, it shouldn't cost a whole lot. Stop spying on kids. Really, should stop spying on everyone.
    We need to stop with the "think about the kids" rhetoric and actually pay attention to what's being said.  Charging for apps does not mean an absence of analytics.  I'd bet there isn't a single paid app on your phone, table, or computer that doesn't use app analytics to manage the "well being" of their app.  Besides, what spying is PBS doing? 
    Exactly. Apple is purposefully using this line to cover their asses and move forward a MARKETING agenda. By using this blunt force approach they’re having consumers connect the dots of evil data sharing and privacy breaches that aren’t there for most apps. Why not instead have a whitelist of approved app tool companies?


  • Reply 29 of 34
    GetoffmylawnGetoffmylawn Posts: 1unconfirmed, member
    Remember when companies could only rely on the, “We were selling this many, now we’re only selling this many.” Metric. That is so 20th century, but, we also used to give each other a pass and get along with each other. “Hey, it’s a free country.” Now there is a “virtual dossier” being built on you that makes the old Soviet Union’s Card file look like a pile of burnt post it notes and big tech is is taking the place of the KGB. It begins with these kid’s apps tracking their clicks from the first time Mom and Dad put a screen in their hands. I’m going back to making my tin foil hat now.
  • Reply 30 of 34
    AlchemyAlchemy Posts: 14member
    simbalion said:
    Notsofast said:
    simbalion said:
    Both the commenters above probably aren’t aware at how dependent modern day apps and websites are on third party analytics and behavioral analytics software. Think simple ones like google analytics, mixpanel. More advanced ones like fullstory.

    for the most part these are not insidious money grubbing moves by pbs and actually are used by product teams to understand things like what features aren’t being used etc. 

    im hoping Apple isn’t just taking this blanket ban as a PR move and unreasonably taking this weird stance against these innocuous tools. 
    LOL. Google Analytics is a tracker that is placed on almost all web sites that captures your personal data about your web searches, clicks, etc.,cross site tracks you, and then sends that data back to Google for inclusion into your virtual dossier.
    It wasn’t the best example to use but my point still stands. Good or bad, modern tech organizations rely heavily on third party analytics and other tools. All these tools are now considered “third parties.”

    It might be “easy” to wire your own tools but those days are long past. I remember when we built all those kinds of tools in house ten years ago but the modern trend is that all those tools are basically outsourced to third parties. 


    But that is exactly the problem.  What does the “outsourcing” company do with that private data after it gives you what you ask for?  How secure is that data? What control do you have over that data?  Today’s world is so careless when it comes to keeping confidential data private.
  • Reply 31 of 34
    AlchemyAlchemy Posts: 14member
    PBS doesn’t need to take down working apps just because they will not know how to improve them. 
  • Reply 32 of 34

    entropys said:
    Just from a cursory reading of the article it's pretty clear PBS thinks they'll be in violation of the prohibition against app analytics.  Paraphrasing here, but she said "we won't be able to tell if our apps or working or be able to improve them"

    Why do do they need analytics in the app to do that? The content is, after all, streamed from their servers. 
    The same reasons any app needs analytics.  Which content is being viewed most often?  Which gets the least views?  What type of content is most popular?  How are videos most often chosen?  How deep into the menus to people go for content?  Do we get more engagement from vertical scrolling or horizontal?  What type of content has the most screen on time?  These are just a few examples.  I am sure an actual dev could come up with dozens more.  Point being, if you don't know what people like/dislike about your content it doesn't get improved.  Why do you think streaming apps like Netflix, Apple Music, Spotify, Youtube, etc. change their interface from time to time?  Analytics.
    Your questions about content do not require client app analytics to know the answer to. The content is server-side streamed, and those analytics and can and likely already are collected & studied from the server-side. This has been the case since server-side web serving became a rising platform twenty years ago. No new problem to solve there.

    It really depends what analytics they are collecting.  From a naive approach, you're absolutely right.  You can collect some of this data server side. 

    However, in most cases, you will need to collect both client side AND server side analytics and correlate them together to build profiles of your audiences to fully understand who is using and what they are doing.  It's not as simple as detecting stop / pause / play events from server side.  Many non-web vendors use Conviva to understand video metrics, specifically video QoS.  For UX, they typically use something from Adobe or GA to understand breadcrumbing and user interaction.  
  • Reply 33 of 34
    simbalion said:
    Notsofast said:
    simbalion said:
    Both the commenters above probably aren’t aware at how dependent modern day apps and websites are on third party analytics and behavioral analytics software. Think simple ones like google analytics, mixpanel. More advanced ones like fullstory.

    for the most part these are not insidious money grubbing moves by pbs and actually are used by product teams to understand things like what features aren’t being used etc. 

    im hoping Apple isn’t just taking this blanket ban as a PR move and unreasonably taking this weird stance against these innocuous tools. 
    LOL. Google Analytics is a tracker that is placed on almost all web sites that captures your personal data about your web searches, clicks, etc.,cross site tracks you, and then sends that data back to Google for inclusion into your virtual dossier.
    It wasn’t the best example to use but my point still stands. Good or bad, modern tech organizations rely heavily on third party analytics and other tools. All these tools are now considered “third parties.”

    It might be “easy” to wire your own tools but those days are long past. I remember when we built all those kinds of tools in house ten years ago but the modern trend is that all those tools are basically outsourced to third parties. 
    Then find a third-party app analytics tool that isn't based on data-sharing with an advertising company. Problem solved.
    I think you’re connecting dots that aren’t being connected here.   As it stands the new rules from Apple prevent you from using third party analytics or engagement tools because the tool IS the third party, not that this tool is sending it to another’s party.  Let’s say you start a really useful tool for app developers that depends on some code that sends you data from your clients app to analyze. That’s what’s happening. And that’s what’s being banned. 

    You can choose to believe there is something nefarious going on at PBS and that they’re selling data or whatever. I don’t think think this is the case. And by painting such a black and white picture with consumers (“we must protect children’s privacy”) Apple is making legitimate tools that app developers depend on a thing of contention. It’s at best a lazy solution and at worst Justin pandering to current sentiments. Apple is better than that. 
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