Editorial: No, the new 2019 Mac Pro isn't a fairy tale come true

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Comments

  • Reply 81 of 92
    I am not the intended market for the iMac Pro, so any discussion of its benefits or flaws by me is not coming from someone used to or requiring computers with a very high processing capacity, especially with video. Having said that, I am curious about what it can do and how that compares in both price and performance with other systems used for similar purposes. 

    What I have read and heard is that the Pro has decent (not great) specs but it’s overpriced. Seeing that the computer isn’t for sale yet I don’t know how a fair evaluation can be made. I also have no idea who builds a similar purposed system or how much that system costs. 

    This would be the type of review that I would like to see: Mac Pro vs Product X ( and Y and Z if they exist )
    and where Apple is strong, and where it’s weak. 

    watto_cobra
  • Reply 82 of 92
    jdw said:

    jdw said:
    I also don't need a lecture about break-out boxes and endless dongles. 
    ...petulant whining from the minority of braying neckbeards who are unwilling to embrace change is not what moves the needle at Apple. Meanwhile most people are literally just getting their work done with the tools available.
    Again, you are lambasting me personally repeatedly with degrading name-calling even though I am your fellow Apple product lover. In stark contrast, I am speaking about the design choices of the largest company in the world who can defend themselves without your help.  You talk about others "whining" while somehow thinking your arguments against your fellow Apple lovers such as myself are somehow NOT whining. 

    One cannot rationally bring "most people" into this equation because "most people" use Windows PCs not a Mac.  To defend "most people" is in fact a defense of Windows.

    Your eyes roll when I mention a 24k gold cup but those same eyes don't roll when I now bring to your attention the same thing -- the solid gold Apple Watch Edition?  No need to roll the eyes when Apple literally has sold solid gold.  And that worked out so well they don't sell it anymore.  :-)

    Let's face it.  Mac users are diverse.  I cannot speak for you or the majority of people anymore than you can speak for he majority "of MAC USERS."  You see things as being near perfect in Cupertino whereas I do not.  The difference is that I don't mind you Thinking Different.  I'm happy for you in that you are easy to satisfy.  Apple just kicks it out the door and you buy it and say nary a negative word.  That's great!  But for some reason you mind my differing thoughts, as per your emotionally-charged replies back to me.  But as I've said, my beef is with the world's largest company, not with you. And that won't change even if you contend the entire world is on your side.  Your defense of the status quo doesn't magically make me or anyone else who loves Macs somehow find contentment they never had before.  Only Macs that satisfy our personal needs will do that.  Thankfully Apple has its ears open a tad wider than some in the AppleInsider forums:

    https://www.apple.com/feedback/macbookpro.html

    I've Apple feedback there and other places and continue to do so.  I even sent Steve Jobs direct emails in the past when he was still alive.  I think it's important to express our thoughts even when those thoughts are deemed crazy, cause trouble, or don't follow Apple's design rules.  There are those at Apple who still see genius in such remarks, because the ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world, are the ones who do.  So go ahead and vilify me, but it's not the defense of the status quo that pushes the human race forward.  Think Different!
    I agree that the new Mac Pro is too expensive. I’d like to have something that’s between mini and pro. Internal expandability and inherent modularity are a big selling point for me too. Even with laptops. Older Mac laptops had a battery module that could be changed, changeable ram and hdd. Easily the most degradable parts. And keys could be changed more easily, we’ll mostly...

    SD-card slot in my 2013 MBP made it possible to expand the storage when I had to. The newest one doesn’t have and it’s pushing me back. As does the limited amount of ports. Sure I could manage with dongles, but what if I forget it. HDMI is pretty much the norm, maybe not in a few years. But this is today, not next year. I am upgrading my MBP, but it just makes me disappointed that newer ones seem worse deals than when I was previously on market for a new laptop. 

    I agree with you that it’s really weird to be personally ridiculed over opinions and criticism that are of an third party. Funny that.
    jdw
  • Reply 83 of 92
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,259member
    lkrupp said:
    bala1234 said:
    Typical DED fare... but as with some of your articles (not all) I am bit confused about central premise.  Are you upset that everybody thinks the new Mac Pro is awesome...?
    Are you kidding. Almost no one here on AI thinks the Mac Pro is awesome. They have been trashing it from day one for the usual reason, the price. They want a Mac Pro they can afford for their piddly home studios where they claim to be professionals. They trash the iMac and Mac Mini because they are not expandable even though those machines have more than enough horsepower to do the job for “prosumers” and "in-home pros” They define prosumers and professionals only as those who want (more than need) slots. it’s ALL about slots, slots, and more slots. And tinkering, tinkering, tinkering... swap this, swap that, install this, hack that. 
    I think most people have a positive opinion of the new Mac Pro.  I agree with you that price is that most people criticize, and with good reason.  For example, HP workstations start with the Z2 Mini, similar to the Mac Mini, to many single and dual CPU tower devices.  Compare that to Apple that went from the Mac Mini starting at $800 up to the Mac Pro that starts at $6K .  There is a huge gap in pricing and specs between those two models.  You mentioned the iMac / iMac Pro, and even though they are very capable devices, there is a market for people who needs internal expansion.  And in the Apple world, it starts at $6K.  Maybe you should not blame "prosumers" and professionals that have a need for internal expansion.  Apple should do better, and offer options to their customers, as HP, Dell and Lenovo do.  
  • Reply 84 of 92
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,259member
    AppleZulu said:
    It's amazing to me that commenters here keep coming back to pet theories about merging iOS and macOS and getting a touchscreen MacBook Pro out of it. Despite years and years of Apple's foundational strategy of not pushing everything into one OS that tries but fails to be all things to all people, this keeps cropping up. Despite the examples like Windows 10 and the Surface Pro trying but failing to be all things to all people, this keeps cropping up. As shown upthread, Apple gives a big "No" to the convergence of operating systems. As seen before, Apple execs have said - as politely but bluntly as they can - they've looked at the MS Surface and did not come away convinced that they need to make one of those. Anyone who generally ponders and understands the big picture of how Apple operates would understand this, but still, it keeps cropping up.
    I find interesting that one of the reasons there are no Macbooks with touch screen is ergonomic issues, but that's exactly the same experience Apple offers with the iPad Pro + Smar Keyboard.  Here is a line from a Federighi comment in an interview, "We really feel that the ergonomics of using a Mac are that your hands are rested on a surface, and that lifting your arm up to poke a screen is a pretty fatiguing thing to do," 
    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-exec-craig-federighi-ipad-bad-computer-replacement-2018-6

    Maybe Apple didn't copy by adding touchscreen to notebooks, but in the iPad is the same experience as the Surface from an ergonomic POV.  Or maybe the Surface gives a better experience, considering it has a trackpad, don't you think?
  • Reply 85 of 92
    jdwjdw Posts: 1,125member
    jdw said:

    jdw said:
    I also don't need a lecture about break-out boxes and endless dongles. 
    ...petulant whining from the minority of braying neckbeards who are unwilling to embrace change is not what moves the needle at Apple. Meanwhile most people are literally just getting their work done with the tools available.
    Your eyes roll when I mention a 24k gold cup but those same eyes don't roll when I now bring to your attention the same thing -- the solid gold Apple Watch Edition?  No need to roll the eyes when Apple literally has sold solid gold.  And that worked out so well they don't sell it anymore.  :-)
    Incorrect. If you had bothered to watch the keynote you'd recall Cook said during the very announcement that the gold Edition was a limited run. They of course didn't expect it to be a big seller; it was probably something Ive wanted to work on and considering it would drum up attention for a brand new product trying to be more than a tech gizmo, they said sure why not. Trying to frame it as some sort of failure is disingenuous at best.
    StrangeDays, you are well known in this forum for arguing with your fellow Mac fans merely for the sake of arguing and this is no different.  If Apple found the solid gold Edition to have been a hot seller, I assure you it would NOT have been a limited run REGARDLESS of it having been introduced as LIMITED.  It may have returned with another name, but it would have returned.  It's stupid to NOT sell something that sells well!  

    My point, which you missed entirely because of your emotionally-charged desire to argue, was that some people worship Apple so much they will buy most things Apple sells and never question it.  These same people defend Apple as if Apple is in need of their defense -- it isn't.
  • Reply 86 of 92
    jdwjdw Posts: 1,125member
    nadriel said:
    jdw said:

    jdw said:
    I also don't need a lecture about break-out boxes and endless dongles. 
    ...petulant whining from the minority of braying neckbeards who are unwilling to embrace change is not what moves the needle at Apple. Meanwhile most people are literally just getting their work done with the tools available.
    Again, you are lambasting me personally repeatedly with degrading name-calling even though I am your fellow Apple product lover. In stark contrast, I am speaking about the design choices of the largest company in the world who can defend themselves without your help.  You talk about others "whining" while somehow thinking your arguments against your fellow Apple lovers such as myself are somehow NOT whining. 

    One cannot rationally bring "most people" into this equation because "most people" use Windows PCs not a Mac.  To defend "most people" is in fact a defense of Windows.

    Your eyes roll when I mention a 24k gold cup but those same eyes don't roll when I now bring to your attention the same thing -- the solid gold Apple Watch Edition?  No need to roll the eyes when Apple literally has sold solid gold.  And that worked out so well they don't sell it anymore.  :-)

    Let's face it.  Mac users are diverse.  I cannot speak for you or the majority of people anymore than you can speak for he majority "of MAC USERS."  You see things as being near perfect in Cupertino whereas I do not.  The difference is that I don't mind you Thinking Different.  I'm happy for you in that you are easy to satisfy.  Apple just kicks it out the door and you buy it and say nary a negative word.  That's great!  But for some reason you mind my differing thoughts, as per your emotionally-charged replies back to me.  But as I've said, my beef is with the world's largest company, not with you. And that won't change even if you contend the entire world is on your side.  Your defense of the status quo doesn't magically make me or anyone else who loves Macs somehow find contentment they never had before.  Only Macs that satisfy our personal needs will do that.  Thankfully Apple has its ears open a tad wider than some in the AppleInsider forums:

    https://www.apple.com/feedback/macbookpro.html

    I've Apple feedback there and other places and continue to do so.  I even sent Steve Jobs direct emails in the past when he was still alive.  I think it's important to express our thoughts even when those thoughts are deemed crazy, cause trouble, or don't follow Apple's design rules.  There are those at Apple who still see genius in such remarks, because the ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world, are the ones who do.  So go ahead and vilify me, but it's not the defense of the status quo that pushes the human race forward.  Think Different!
    I agree that the new Mac Pro is too expensive...
    I agree with you that it’s really weird to be personally ridiculed over opinions and criticism that are of an third party. Funny that.
    Thank you for your kind words,nadriel! We certainly need solidarity in this forum.  We are all Apple product lovers after all.  Some of us love everything Apple sells and others like myself cannot embrace certain products or features. I appreciate AppleInsider offering us this forum to discuss such matters. 

    Best wishes.
    edited October 2019 nadriel
  • Reply 87 of 92
    lkrupp said:
    bala1234 said:
    Typical DED fare... but as with some of your articles (not all) I am bit confused about central premise.  Are you upset that everybody thinks the new Mac Pro is awesome...?
    Are you kidding. Almost no one here on AI thinks the Mac Pro is awesome. They have been trashing it from day one for the usual reason, the price. They want a Mac Pro they can afford for their piddly home studios where they claim to be professionals. They trash the iMac and Mac Mini because they are not expandable even though those machines have more than enough horsepower to do the job for “prosumers” and "in-home pros” They define prosumers and professionals only as those who want (more than need) slots. it’s ALL about slots, slots, and more slots. And tinkering, tinkering, tinkering... swap this, swap that, install this, hack that. 
    Ah! so its a commentary on the criticism of price. Thanks for clarifying.
  • Reply 88 of 92
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 6,177member
    jdw said:

    jdw said:
    I also don't need a lecture about break-out boxes and endless dongles. 
    ...petulant whining from the minority of braying neckbeards who are unwilling to embrace change is not what moves the needle at Apple. Meanwhile most people are literally just getting their work done with the tools available.
    Again, you are lambasting me personally repeatedly with degrading name-calling even though I am your fellow Apple product lover. In stark contrast, I am speaking about the design choices of the largest company in the world who can defend themselves without your help.  You talk about others "whining" while somehow thinking your arguments against your fellow Apple lovers such as myself are somehow NOT whining. 

    One cannot rationally bring "most people" into this equation because "most people" use Windows PCs not a Mac.  To defend "most people" is in fact a defense of Windows.

    Your eyes roll when I mention a 24k gold cup but those same eyes don't roll when I now bring to your attention the same thing -- the solid gold Apple Watch Edition?  No need to roll the eyes when Apple literally has sold solid gold.  And that worked out so well they don't sell it anymore.  :-)

    Let's face it.  Mac users are diverse.  I cannot speak for you or the majority of people anymore than you can speak for he majority "of MAC USERS."  You see things as being near perfect in Cupertino whereas I do not.  The difference is that I don't mind you Thinking Different.  I'm happy for you in that you are easy to satisfy.  Apple just kicks it out the door and you buy it and say nary a negative word.  That's great!  But for some reason you mind my differing thoughts, as per your emotionally-charged replies back to me.  But as I've said, my beef is with the world's largest company, not with you. And that won't change even if you contend the entire world is on your side.  Your defense of the status quo doesn't magically make me or anyone else who loves Macs somehow find contentment they never had before.  Only Macs that satisfy our personal needs will do that.  Thankfully Apple has its ears open a tad wider than some in the AppleInsider forums:

    https://www.apple.com/feedback/macbookpro.html

    I've Apple feedback there and other places and continue to do so.  I even sent Steve Jobs direct emails in the past when he was still alive.  I think it's important to express our thoughts even when those thoughts are deemed crazy, cause trouble, or don't follow Apple's design rules.  There are those at Apple who still see genius in such remarks, because the ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world, are the ones who do.  So go ahead and vilify me, but it's not the defense of the status quo that pushes the human race forward.  Think Different!
    You're missing the point entirely. This article is *all about* stuff like your post, which is a vocal minority of the user base wishing for a certain type of Mac which you will probably never get, or at least not exactly the way you want. In the second and penultimate sentences of this article, it clearly calls out that changes to product lineups are not the result of "a whimsical executive decision made in response to a customer email, and is instead the latest deliverable of a long term strategy unfolding at Apple". A tiny vocal minority of users emailing Jobs/Cook/whomever isn't going to get you the xMac, though you're welcome to send your feedback and hope that it's received well. Posting about it here most certainly will not make any difference. 

    I'm not defending anything other than reality here, which is the subject of this article. The reality is, you're going to be complaining for a long time if you're unwilling to use the tools that are available to accomplish the job you need done. MAYBE it'll happen, but not because of your forum posts or emails to Tim Cook. Meanwhile, people like myself *accept* that reality and will find the existing solutions that are available to get my work done, whether that's an eGPU or breakout box or whatever. You're welcome to complain, but don't expect others not to point out the fallacies in your arguments ("no way to use PCIe cards" vs "using a PCIe breakout box").

    By "most people" I am clearly talking about the majority of Mac users. I can draw a diagram if you'd like.

    The gold Edition watch was a limited edition vanity project for Ive, and it served a distinct marketing purpose as well at the time. If you don't understand what that was, I'm not responsible for explaining it to you. A gold cup is obviously not a functional computing device, so it's a silly analogy, hence my eyeroll.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 89 of 92
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 6,177member

    tht said:
    You're assuming that most people think the same way as you. They don't, which is why Apple still sells a shit ton of Macs and has the customer sat ratings that it enjoys. My 2018 MBP is my favorite Mac ever, and yes, I've used them since the 9" b&w screen.
    I’ll second your experience here. After using my work 2018 MBP15 for 6 months now, I think it is is the best laptop Apple has made. I’ve used a 2015 MBP15 (retina), a 2012 MBP12 (unibody), and 2008 MBP15 (aluminum), and the 2018 is better than those machines in most respects. Always found myself using the last model year for each gen.

    The thinness of the 4th gen MBP15 is great. I like the feel of the keyboard. Fit and finish are a lot better than the prior models. I actually use the Touch Bar quite a bit in Terminal.app. There are changes I’d like to make to the design, but you have those desires for everything you buy. If it wasn’t for the reliability issues with the keyboard, nobody would be arguing about it and would have just moved on just like with every other generational change in Apple’s devices.

    Don't forget about the "pro" users who'd rather have slow legacy "real" USB-A ports than 40Gbps do-everything Thunderbolt 3 ports.
    GG1watto_cobra
  • Reply 90 of 92
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 6,177member
    nadriel said:
    jdw said:

    jdw said:
    I also don't need a lecture about break-out boxes and endless dongles. 
    ...petulant whining from the minority of braying neckbeards who are unwilling to embrace change is not what moves the needle at Apple. Meanwhile most people are literally just getting their work done with the tools available.
    Again, you are lambasting me personally repeatedly with degrading name-calling even though I am your fellow Apple product lover. In stark contrast, I am speaking about the design choices of the largest company in the world who can defend themselves without your help.  You talk about others "whining" while somehow thinking your arguments against your fellow Apple lovers such as myself are somehow NOT whining. 

    One cannot rationally bring "most people" into this equation because "most people" use Windows PCs not a Mac.  To defend "most people" is in fact a defense of Windows.

    Your eyes roll when I mention a 24k gold cup but those same eyes don't roll when I now bring to your attention the same thing -- the solid gold Apple Watch Edition?  No need to roll the eyes when Apple literally has sold solid gold.  And that worked out so well they don't sell it anymore.  :-)

    Let's face it.  Mac users are diverse.  I cannot speak for you or the majority of people anymore than you can speak for he majority "of MAC USERS."  You see things as being near perfect in Cupertino whereas I do not.  The difference is that I don't mind you Thinking Different.  I'm happy for you in that you are easy to satisfy.  Apple just kicks it out the door and you buy it and say nary a negative word.  That's great!  But for some reason you mind my differing thoughts, as per your emotionally-charged replies back to me.  But as I've said, my beef is with the world's largest company, not with you. And that won't change even if you contend the entire world is on your side.  Your defense of the status quo doesn't magically make me or anyone else who loves Macs somehow find contentment they never had before.  Only Macs that satisfy our personal needs will do that.  Thankfully Apple has its ears open a tad wider than some in the AppleInsider forums:

    https://www.apple.com/feedback/macbookpro.html

    I've Apple feedback there and other places and continue to do so.  I even sent Steve Jobs direct emails in the past when he was still alive.  I think it's important to express our thoughts even when those thoughts are deemed crazy, cause trouble, or don't follow Apple's design rules.  There are those at Apple who still see genius in such remarks, because the ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world, are the ones who do.  So go ahead and vilify me, but it's not the defense of the status quo that pushes the human race forward.  Think Different!
    I agree that the new Mac Pro is too expensive. I’d like to have something that’s between mini and pro. Internal expandability and inherent modularity are a big selling point for me too. Even with laptops. Older Mac laptops had a battery module that could be changed, changeable ram and hdd. Easily the most degradable parts. And keys could be changed more easily, we’ll mostly...

    SD-card slot in my 2013 MBP made it possible to expand the storage when I had to. The newest one doesn’t have and it’s pushing me back. As does the limited amount of ports. Sure I could manage with dongles, but what if I forget it. HDMI is pretty much the norm, maybe not in a few years. But this is today, not next year. I am upgrading my MBP, but it just makes me disappointed that newer ones seem worse deals than when I was previously on market for a new laptop. 

    I agree with you that it’s really weird to be personally ridiculed over opinions and criticism that are of an third party. Funny that.
    To be clear, this originated with Jdw's comment that "If we the consumer think a product sucks, it does." — to which I was responding that the vocal yet still tiny minority of users who are wholly dissatisfied with Apple's lineup right now can not claim to represent anything close to "we the consumer" as any meaningful metric in the context of the vast majority of people who are largely happy with the products. Secondly was the false claim that you can *only* use PCIe cards with the Mac Pro, which is also false, to which I was given a "I don't need a lecture about..." tirade. I have no problem with opinions and criticisms as long as they're based in reality. These were not.

    FYI — Here's how you don't lose your HDMI adapter:


    edited October 2019 watto_cobra
  • Reply 91 of 92
    jdwjdw Posts: 1,125member
    jdw said:

    jdw said:
    I also don't need a lecture about break-out boxes and endless dongles. 
    ...petulant whining from the minority of braying neckbeards who are unwilling to embrace change is not what moves the needle at Apple. Meanwhile most people are literally just getting their work done with the tools available.
    Posting about it here most certainly will not make any difference
    I'm not defending anything other than reality here...
    I see... Posting here makes no dent in the universe whatsoever, yet you are still posting here to "defend reality."  

    Apple is big enough to defend itself. Reality is bigger still.  

    At least you refrained from use of "petulant whining" & "braying neckbeards" this time.  We in the utterly insignificant and unimportant minority thank you.  I shall refrain from posting further and leave you to enjoy the status quo.  And as I said before, I am happy you are happy with Apple products.  I simply am not happy with all Apple products.  That's the short and skinny.  But one would be wrong to assume that I am the only discontent one.  But interestingly, we Mac users are a minority in the greater pool of PC users.  Being in a minority isn't a bad thing at all.  

    THINK DIFFERENT.
  • Reply 92 of 92
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 1,444member
    danvm said:
    AppleZulu said:
    It's amazing to me that commenters here keep coming back to pet theories about merging iOS and macOS and getting a touchscreen MacBook Pro out of it. Despite years and years of Apple's foundational strategy of not pushing everything into one OS that tries but fails to be all things to all people, this keeps cropping up. Despite the examples like Windows 10 and the Surface Pro trying but failing to be all things to all people, this keeps cropping up. As shown upthread, Apple gives a big "No" to the convergence of operating systems. As seen before, Apple execs have said - as politely but bluntly as they can - they've looked at the MS Surface and did not come away convinced that they need to make one of those. Anyone who generally ponders and understands the big picture of how Apple operates would understand this, but still, it keeps cropping up.
    I find interesting that one of the reasons there are no Macbooks with touch screen is ergonomic issues, but that's exactly the same experience Apple offers with the iPad Pro + Smar Keyboard.  Here is a line from a Federighi comment in an interview, "We really feel that the ergonomics of using a Mac are that your hands are rested on a surface, and that lifting your arm up to poke a screen is a pretty fatiguing thing to do," 
    https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-exec-craig-federighi-ipad-bad-computer-replacement-2018-6

    Maybe Apple didn't copy by adding touchscreen to notebooks, but in the iPad is the same experience as the Surface from an ergonomic POV.  Or maybe the Surface gives a better experience, considering it has a trackpad, don't you think?
    Not, really, no. The iPad is a touchscreen tablet, with an optional keyboard that folds out of a screen cover. The keyboard is not designed or built for constant use, as is a notebook keyboard. Because the iPad runs on a touch-based OS, when the keyboard is deployed, the rest of the cover is used to create a support behind the tablet, which helps accommodate the occasional poke at the screen. Notebooks have a hinge, and are wobbly and unstable when you poke at the screen. More importantly, MacOS is a robust operating system with a menu-driven UI. Poking at that UI with your finger would be an inefficient, error-prone experience. Merging that UI with a touch-based UI like iOS would create the bloated and confusing mess that looks like Windows. Apple has never had good reason to abandon what they're doing to copy Windows. These are two different, if partially overlapping devices and user interfaces. The only reason to merge them is to fulfill an unimaginative narrative that ignores the fact that that other big company that actually did do that has not had any notable success with the approach.
    jdb8167watto_cobra
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