Why is everyone lamenting the loss of the Mac middle when it is here we just all fail to see it. I like many of you want something between a iMac or iMac Pro and a tower but what do I really want? I want to add in cards and RAIDS and whatnot. Well the eGPU and thunderbolt enclosures are here to stay. Yes we can lament the extra boxes and the lack of ability to have it all in one big box but thats about all we can lament. We CAN actually do everything we want, we just may not like it cuz it isn't "pretty" or "clean". I run pro setups all the time with iMac's connected to eGPU's and other boxes running other PCI cards and in the end it does in fact look clean and professional....it's not just not in one box. Think of it this way. The entire power of having a tower is gives you the "option" to add cards if need be. Well we still have this option with thunderbolt 3...yes we have to cough up some extra dough for a eGPU box but thats about it right? What am I missing here??? I would rather argue about the hatred of having to spend $300 on an eGPU box to add a card rather than arguing over a whole missing product or cheap tower. But hey, thats just me.
If there is no option for a NVIDIA GPU, it is NOT a Pro computer period.
It is a Pro Computer but not one that meets your definition of Pro.
I've had many struggles with NVIDIA GPU's over the years. 200MB for a graphics driver? really?
Last year I took 10 different NVIDIA GPU to recycling. The guy sighed and said 'not more of these things? We can't give them away'.
Yes, you have a point if you want to use CUDA etc but for most people, as long as it can drive their display with minimum flicker and delay/pixelation they are happy.
Why is everyone lamenting the loss of the Mac middle when it is here we just all fail to see it. I like many of you want something between a iMac or iMac Pro and a tower but what do I really want? I want to add in cards and RAIDS and whatnot. Well the eGPU and thunderbolt enclosures are here to stay. Yes we can lament the extra boxes and the lack of ability to have it all in one big box but thats about all we can lament. We CAN actually do everything we want, we just may not like it cuz it isn't "pretty" or "clean". I run pro setups all the time with iMac's connected to eGPU's and other boxes running other PCI cards and in the end it does in fact look clean and professional....it's not just not in one box. Think of it this way. The entire power of having a tower is gives you the "option" to add cards if need be. Well we still have this option with thunderbolt 3...yes we have to cough up some extra dough for a eGPU box but thats about it right? What am I missing here??? I would rather argue about the hatred of having to spend $300 on an eGPU box to add a card rather than arguing over a whole missing product or cheap tower. But hey, thats just me.
That's thinking outside the box! ;-)
I would like one especially to have the screen not soldered to the machine.
Currently I have a 27" iMac with a failed GPU. The screen is fine but unusable. The opposite would be true is the screen had failed.
I want an internally upgradeable machine with a screen of my choice.
I still have the feeling that Apple would rather that all Mac users just switch to using iPads.
Then you haven’t been listening to what they have literally been telling you. Schiller’s even been on the ATP podcast and said otherwise.
In all fairness can you blame someone for not believing the hype? What have they done for the pro market since the launch of the trash can Pro? Want to talk about “Pro-lite”? My Mac Mini is only 2 generations old but was released 7 years ago. The current iMac is teetering on being a dinosaur. On the other hand you have several new iPad’s every year.
Don’t get me wrong. I love my iPad Pro. It has become an important part of my workflow. And yes, this new Mac Pro is awesome. Out of my reach, but there will be a new Mini in my near future. Let’s revisit in a year and see where we are with things. I’m interested to see how they follow-up with the recent Mac love.
I'm happy that Apple is still addressing the pro market, but it's unfortunate they missed so badly using Intel Xeon CPUs instead of AMD Epyc CPUs for this generation. The additional cores and PCIe bandwidth would be massively useful, especially if they could shave some serious money off the price at the same time.
Yeah, Rome is looking pretty good, and maybe that would have been better.
But, I can think of three reasons why the path they chose might be ok:
1. AVX 512 --- the AltiVec of our day. Xeon has it, Epyc doesn't. 2. AMD is historically an unreliable supplier on the CPU side of things 3. Intel has already announced that Cascade Lake Xeon Ws will be much cheaper than their Skylake predecessors. That could mitigate the Epyc price advantage.
Apple's crystal ball is the best in the biz, and there is really only one reason Apple is expanding into this space -----> content creation for creatives. They actually stated this when they made the announcement...
This has been a key Apple market since....umm... well, not long after the Knoll brothers got that one application launched as a Macintosh exclusive back in 1990...
We had labs full on maxed out IIcx's just to run Photoshop.
Its more like Apple sees a need to once again return to its jilted lover that will (maybe?) always take it back...
Based on past history of just abandoning anything that takes a modicum of effort it would be unwise for those who are not of the Apple Sheep cloth to put much faith in Apple being consistent with any product at this level. You only need look at
5. OS X Server turning into a toy
Apple’s spent their money on AI companies and other ancillary technologies but they haven’t spent much effort into growing their Pro apps beyond routine small features and maintenance updates.
I’d trust Apple if I had a few workstations to purchase but I’d be wary with committing to anything more than that.
All of OS X Server's functionality is still there via the command line. In fact, it's in every copy of MacOS.
Based on past history of just abandoning anything that takes a modicum of effort it would be unwise for those who are not of the Apple Sheep cloth to put much faith in Apple being consistent with any product at this level. You only need look at
1. The demise of the Xserve server and RAID 2. Apple acquiring and doing nothing with PowerSchool. 3. The neglect of iBook Author despite the small but fanatical fan base 4. Aperture’s slow decaying death 5. OS X Server turning into a toy
Apple’s spent their money on AI companies and other ancillary technologies but they haven’t spent much effort into growing their Pro apps beyond routine small features and maintenance updates.
I’d trust Apple if I had a few workstations to purchase but I’d be wary with committing to anything more than that.
Based on past history of just abandoning anything that takes a modicum of effort it would be unwise for those who are not of the Apple Sheep cloth to put much faith in Apple being consistent with any product at this level. You only need look at
5. OS X Server turning into a toy
Apple’s spent their money on AI companies and other ancillary technologies but they haven’t spent much effort into growing their Pro apps beyond routine small features and maintenance updates.
I’d trust Apple if I had a few workstations to purchase but I’d be wary with committing to anything more than that.
All of OS X Server's functionality is still there via the command line. In fact, it's in every copy of MacOS.
This is not true.
"Starting with macOS Server 5.7.1, Apple no longer bundles open source services such as Calendar Server, Contacts Server, the Mail Server, DNS, DHCP, VPN Server, and Websites with macOS Server. Customers can get these same services directly from open-source providers. This way, macOS Server customers can install the most secure and up-to-date services as soon as they’re available. "
Based on past history of just abandoning anything that takes a modicum of effort it would be unwise for those who are not of the Apple Sheep cloth to put much faith in Apple being consistent with any product at this level. You only need look at
5. OS X Server turning into a toy
Apple’s spent their money on AI companies and other ancillary technologies but they haven’t spent much effort into growing their Pro apps beyond routine small features and maintenance updates.
I’d trust Apple if I had a few workstations to purchase but I’d be wary with committing to anything more than that.
All of OS X Server's functionality is still there via the command line. In fact, it's in every copy of MacOS.
Blatantly false. - See post above.
Customers can get these same services directly from open-source providers. Which for all practical purposes means a Linux distribution.
Looks like Open Directory is gone from 5.8 too, which cannot easily be swapped for a standard LDAP server.
Blah, Blah, Blah Daniel... For all the money Apple generates from Mac sales you would think they could offer an option in the middle ground between the Mini and the Pro. Dell, HP and the rest can sell LOADS of different product lines and still make a profit. A Mac user has only one place to go to buy a Mac and Apple offers severely limited choices. Imagine if BMW offered only the 1 Series, 2 Series, and the 7 Series. That's the state of desktop Mac options.
I'm sick reading you banging on about how smart and profitable Apple is. As you say, the Mac division on its own would be a Fortune 500 company. When did they last truly innovate? Have you seen some of the recent PC hardware? It might not all be perfect but they try. Apple design for me has been getting lazy for years. The whole trash can Mac Pro was possibly the worst bit of design in Apple's history. All the users wanted was a powerful box they could stick under their desks, maybe fit some cards into for specialist pro tasks, and not really think about at all. Instead, they got something that's beautiful to look (well at least until it has wires spewing out all over the place) but not much more useful than a Mac Mini for professional tasks. It's then left for years without a single update. Absolutely crazy for a Fortune 500 sized outfit.
The new Pro looks amazing but it's targeted at a very small niche audience. I and a lot of people like me need something bigger than a Mini and smaller than a Pro. A Mac Middle if you will...
Most folks - and this is a proven fact - will never open up a computer once the initial purchase is made. Fact. Been beaten to death multiple times.
When that time does come to upgrade, from a cost perspective - whether you like it or not - it's better to buy a new machine with newer technology, then to mix-and-match old tech, with new tech in an expandable system and not get the entire benefit. Fact.
So give it a rest. We all would love an "affordable" Mac Pro, but the reality is for most of Apple's customers, an iMac, or Mini works just fine. Folks like you represent such a small blip on Apple's P&L that it's more a rounding-error than anything else.
Apple products have such a long lifespan - and better resale value than the competition. They last 5+ years for most folks. WHY on earth would someone want to upgrade certain components when the rest of the tech is technically obsolete?
Based on past history of just abandoning anything that takes a modicum of effort it would be unwise for those who are not of the Apple Sheep cloth to put much faith in Apple being consistent with any product at this level. You only need look at
1. The demise of the Xserve server and RAID 2. Apple acquiring and doing nothing with PowerSchool. 3. The neglect of iBook Author despite the small but fanatical fan base 4. Aperture’s slow decaying death 5. OS X Server turning into a toy
Apple’s spent their money on AI companies and other ancillary technologies but they haven’t spent much effort into growing their Pro apps beyond routine small features and maintenance updates.
I’d trust Apple if I had a few workstations to purchase but I’d be wary with committing to anything more than that.
Why is everyone lamenting the loss of the Mac middle when it is here we just all fail to see it. I like many of you want something between a iMac or iMac Pro and a tower but what do I really want? I want to add in cards and RAIDS and whatnot. Well the eGPU and thunderbolt enclosures are here to stay. Yes we can lament the extra boxes and the lack of ability to have it all in one big box but thats about all we can lament. We CAN actually do everything we want, we just may not like it cuz it isn't "pretty" or "clean". I run pro setups all the time with iMac's connected to eGPU's and other boxes running other PCI cards and in the end it does in fact look clean and professional....it's not just not in one box. Think of it this way. The entire power of having a tower is gives you the "option" to add cards if need be. Well we still have this option with thunderbolt 3...yes we have to cough up some extra dough for a eGPU box but thats about it right? What am I missing here??? I would rather argue about the hatred of having to spend $300 on an eGPU box to add a card rather than arguing over a whole missing product or cheap tower. But hey, thats just me.
Honestly I think it’s the “you can’t run an NVIDEA card” as well as the graphics accelerator is Metal.
Blah, Blah, Blah Daniel... For all the money Apple generates from Mac sales you would think they could offer an option in the middle ground between the Mini and the Pro. Dell, HP and the rest can sell LOADS of different product lines and still make a profit. A Mac user has only one place to go to buy a Mac and Apple offers severely limited choices. Imagine if BMW offered only the 1 Series, 2 Series, and the 7 Series. That's the state of desktop Mac options.
I'm sick reading you banging on about how smart and profitable Apple is. As you say, the Mac division on its own would be a Fortune 500 company. When did they last truly innovate? Have you seen some of the recent PC hardware? It might not all be perfect but they try. Apple design for me has been getting lazy for years. The whole trash can Mac Pro was possibly the worst bit of design in Apple's history. All the users wanted was a powerful box they could stick under their desks, maybe fit some cards into for specialist pro tasks, and not really think about at all. Instead, they got something that's beautiful to look (well at least until it has wires spewing out all over the place) but not much more useful than a Mac Mini for professional tasks. It's then left for years without a single update. Absolutely crazy for a Fortune 500 sized outfit.
The new Pro looks amazing but it's targeted at a very small niche audience. I and a lot of people like me need something bigger than a Mini and smaller than a Pro. A Mac Middle if you will...
- it's better to buy a new machine with newer technology, ...
That's pretty damn hard when there is 6-7 years between technology updates, or when new machines like the 2014 minis are a downright degradation of previous models. Same goes for the 2013 trash-can which was a downgrade in most respects from the cheese graters.
There is also an issue from a software perspective in many cases where new machines only can run the latest macOS, but professional users cannot upgrade their software for many reasons, but need more performance.
Why is everyone lamenting the loss of the Mac middle when it is here we just all fail to see it. I like many of you want something between a iMac or iMac Pro and a tower but what do I really want? I want to add in cards and RAIDS and whatnot. Well the eGPU and thunderbolt enclosures are here to stay. Yes we can lament the extra boxes and the lack of ability to have it all in one big box but thats about all we can lament. We CAN actually do everything we want, we just may not like it cuz it isn't "pretty" or "clean". I run pro setups all the time with iMac's connected to eGPU's and other boxes running other PCI cards and in the end it does in fact look clean and professional....it's not just not in one box. Think of it this way. The entire power of having a tower is gives you the "option" to add cards if need be. Well we still have this option with thunderbolt 3...yes we have to cough up some extra dough for a eGPU box but thats about it right? What am I missing here??? I would rather argue about the hatred of having to spend $300 on an eGPU box to add a card rather than arguing over a whole missing product or cheap tower. But hey, thats just me.
That's thinking outside the box! ;-)
I would like one especially to have the screen not soldered to the machine.
Currently I have a 27" iMac with a failed GPU. The screen is fine but unusable. The opposite would be true is the screen had failed.
I want an internally upgradeable machine with a screen of my choice.
I think many people feel exactly the same way.
Yes. I feel exactly the same way. Compact all-in-one machines are not for constant heavy CPU & GPU loads, and they aren’t good for people who want to keep the display and replace the computer (or visa versa). I’ve had a MacBook Pro die from repeat heating & cooling cycles. I won’t use a compact machine for such loads ever again. It is FOOLISH that Apple have priced me and many others out of their now much shrunken Mac Pro market
They do not need to sell many units of this.. it should not be looked at as a profit generating product or effort.
Its an ICONIC and foundational product.. its there to make a statement about Apples computing prowess! .. and as long as they are able to deliver that message with it.. every once of the effort would have been worth it..
It is Great PR and it Is Great Publicity and an awesome product to promote the Prowess of the Brand !...
Plus, on the side, a few professionals( few, in relative terms) will also enjoy the massive power and capability of this Beast.
I'm really curious as to why Aperture was killed. That's another product in which if Photogs "got it" and loved the work flow they were obsessed with it. It's easy to do the math and come to the proper conclusion that Apple made the "right" decision to focus heavily on iOS. The follow up question is "now that they've reached a sort of plateau will they focus again on other areas and deliver competent solutions that they actually stick with?"
But that’s not how a Wall Street-addicted MBA mindset works. Making profit isn’t enough. They want to make only the widest profit margins and have only impressive stock performance. They want perpetual growth (even though that is IMPOSSIBLE). Any product that makes profit but isn’t wowing the majority shareholders and board and isn’t contributing to share price increases... well, that’s called poor performance and a waste of investment.
<snip>As AR/VR will be the "next big thing" (Tim has stated this many times) whomever controls its production will be the leader and Apple wants to own that space. That space includes not only hardware/software but distribution which is why Apple is launching AppleTV+ on November 1st.
The workstation will be tailored to optimize Apple's creation workflow, which will be optimized to allow all of Apple's devices/platforms to provide the very best AR/VR experience for its customers.
AR and VR are so massively overhyped. VR has been "just around the corner it'll go mainstream" for the last half-decade. Augmented Reality has a very limited scope.
I believe Machine Learning and AI have a glimmer of hope but at this point on not sure Apple really sees the puck let alone where it's going. That being said they still need some powerful hardware that can ready to take on the next big hit whenever it comes.
Agreed. VR and AR are going nowhere fast. All evidence shows it to be a perpetual fringe fad for those willing to suffer “not there yet” technology. Since there’s no real useful end product, “not there yet” isn’t good enough to make money on it on end users as consumer tech. Unlike the abysmal 3D modeling and rendering software packages on the market (a technology that isn’t there yet, but is good enough for hard core users to make fantastic art, games, and movies with, should they condition themselves to the abusive state of the software and its GUIs... or be paid enough to put up with it).
One criticism: “Machine Learning” and “AI” don’t exist. It won’t exist for a very long time, unless someone makes a monumental discovery in how brains work. Everything under the banner of AI/machine learning today isn’t remotely Artificial Intelligence. It’s cleverly written algorithms and scripting that uses monstrous amounts of statistical data to plot potential paths. Nothing learns, nothing is intelligent, and nothing can think, at this time, other than a living brain. We don’t even have quality text prediction or voice recognition.
They do not need to sell many units of this.. it should not be looked at as a profit generating product or effort.
Its an ICONIC and foundational product.. its there to make a statement about Apples computing prowess! .. and as long as they are able to deliver that message with it.. every once of the effort would have been worth it..
It is Great PR and it Is Great Publicity and an awesome product to promote the Prowess of the Brand !...
Plus, on the side, a few professionals( few, in relative terms) will also enjoy the massive power and capability of this Beast.
You’re kidding, right? That was all just one big sarcastic post. Right?
They do not need to sell many units of this.. it should not be looked at as a profit generating product or effort.
Its an ICONIC and foundational product.. its there to make a statement about Apples computing prowess!
Apple won't have to sell many units because of the high price, but you can bet the "suits" will be looking for profitability. The symbolism of the new Mac Pro will last maybe a year (from the date of announcement) before it looks tired, unless the hardware is updated.
Comments
I would like one especially to have the screen not soldered to the machine.
Currently I have a 27" iMac with a failed GPU. The screen is fine but unusable. The opposite would be true is the screen had failed.
I want an internally upgradeable machine with a screen of my choice.
I think many people feel exactly the same way.
Don’t get me wrong. I love my iPad Pro. It has become an important part of my workflow. And yes, this new Mac Pro is awesome. Out of my reach, but there will be a new Mini in my near future. Let’s revisit in a year and see where we are with things. I’m interested to see how they follow-up with the recent Mac love.
But, I can think of three reasons why the path they chose might be ok:
1. AVX 512 --- the AltiVec of our day. Xeon has it, Epyc doesn't.
2. AMD is historically an unreliable supplier on the CPU side of things
3. Intel has already announced that Cascade Lake Xeon Ws will be much cheaper than their Skylake predecessors. That could mitigate the Epyc price advantage.
This has been a key Apple market since....umm... well, not long after the Knoll brothers got that one application launched as a Macintosh exclusive back in 1990...
We had labs full on maxed out IIcx's just to run Photoshop.
Its more like Apple sees a need to once again return to its jilted lover that will (maybe?) always take it back...
So why should we trust these clowns either?
Here are the top 50 products in the Google Graveyard, ranked from best to worst!
https://www.androidauthority.com/failed-google-products-list-943812/
Microsoft's Graveyard: 16 Products That Microsoft has Killed
https://www.cio.com/article/3401528/microsofts-graveyard-16-products-that-microsoft-has-killed.html
This is not true.
"Starting with macOS Server 5.7.1, Apple no longer bundles open source services such as Calendar Server, Contacts Server, the Mail Server, DNS, DHCP, VPN Server, and Websites with macOS Server. Customers can get these same services directly from open-source providers. This way, macOS Server customers can install the most secure and up-to-date services as soon as they’re available. "
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208312
Customers can get these same services directly from open-source providers.
Which for all practical purposes means a Linux distribution.
Looks like Open Directory is gone from 5.8 too, which cannot easily be swapped for a standard LDAP server.
Apple products have such a long lifespan - and better resale value than the competition. They last 5+ years for most folks. WHY on earth would someone want to upgrade certain components when the rest of the tech is technically obsolete?
There is also an issue from a software perspective in many cases where new machines only can run the latest macOS, but professional users cannot upgrade their software for many reasons, but need more performance.
Agreed. VR and AR are going nowhere fast. All evidence shows it to be a perpetual fringe fad for those willing to suffer “not there yet” technology. Since there’s no real useful end product, “not there yet” isn’t good enough to make money on it on end users as consumer tech. Unlike the abysmal 3D modeling and rendering software packages on the market (a technology that isn’t there yet, but is good enough for hard core users to make fantastic art, games, and movies with, should they condition themselves to the abusive state of the software and its GUIs... or be paid enough to put up with it).
One criticism: “Machine Learning” and “AI” don’t exist. It won’t exist for a very long time, unless someone makes a monumental discovery in how brains work. Everything under the banner of AI/machine learning today isn’t remotely Artificial Intelligence. It’s cleverly written algorithms and scripting that uses monstrous amounts of statistical data to plot potential paths. Nothing learns, nothing is intelligent, and nothing can think, at this time, other than a living brain. We don’t even have quality text prediction or voice recognition.