EU regulators query retailers over Apple Pay antitrust concerns

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 30
    Protectionist EU nincompoops.
    anantksundaram
  • Reply 22 of 30
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,765member
    avon b7 said:

    The notion that it is anti U.S is just silly and I can assure that the people making those claims can't back them up with anything.
    Taken in context with what has been happening in the past few years, no, it's not silly at all.

    Moreover, it's time for someone to call out the EU with its "respond to company whines" as opposed to "respond to actual customer complaints" approach to antitrust. The latter is the real purpose of antitrust law. Right now, it appears to be held hostage to lobbying by companies in Brussels.
    The question has to be, what has been happening?

    Hundreds of companies have been fined in the past few years. The majority of them from the EU. The only difference is that as the digital economy has developed and certain companies have grown, more attention has been given to those cases. Obviously, and this has been stated more than once by the commission, the bigger companies are a higher priority but that doesn't mean they are the only companies being investigated. IIRC, there were around 300 investigations open the last time I saw that info. The case is that in the digital economy there are a fair few large U.S companies.

    I did some work for an EU plastics company that was fined millions of euros for simply attending a meeting where price fixing was put on the table. The company had no idea the subject would be proposed but just being there was enough for it to get whacked.

    The irony here is that the company that made the proposal, arranged the meetings and pulled the strings was a U.S company. It got cold feet and reported the meeting to the EU and got off scot free because, as the 'denouncer' there is no penalty.

    https://www.financierworldwide.com/digital-markets-recent-competition-law-developments-in-the-eu#.XbmkvmSCGDY


    edited October 2019 spheric
  • Reply 23 of 30
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,068member
    Payments? Payments?! PAYMENTS?! These EU bureaucrats are a bunch of know-nothing, can’t-innovate-for-crap, inferiority-complex-ridden lotus-eaters, constantly out to penalize American ingenuity because their own tech industry is an agglomeration of clueless buffoons. Pathetic. 

    The US should start to hit back hard. Enough is enough.
    Apologies for the tone, but seriously: What the F*CK is your problem here? 

    At the moment, all that is happening is that somebody complained, and the European Commission is investigating, like they do every corporation that does business in Europe if they have cause (the VAST majority of antitrust rulings by the EC are against European companies, by the way — quit whining already). THAT'S THEIR JOB.

    If it turns out that Apple is running afoul of laws regulating a free market and e-commerce by forcing retailers to offer payment options that may not be in their own interest, then they are in violation of antitrust laws and need to change their behaviour. 

    If you think this has ANYTHING to do with being "anti-innovation" or some sort of "inferiority complex" just because one out of a thousand investigations happens to target a company from the US, you have serious issues that are neither Europe's, nor Apple's problem. 

    FWIW, I don't think this will go anywhere, but I'm not privy to the contract details Apple forces upon retailers. I could imagine that Apple might be forced to open up NFC on their devices for competing services, though. 
    edited October 2019
  • Reply 24 of 30
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,068member

    avon b7 said:

    The notion that it is anti U.S is just silly and I can assure that the people making those claims can't back them up with anything.
    Taken in context with what has been happening in the past few years, no, it's not silly at all.

    Moreover, it's time for someone to call out the EU with its "respond to company whines" as opposed to "respond to actual customer complaints" approach to antitrust. The latter is the real purpose of antitrust law. Right now, it appears to be held hostage to lobbying by companies in Brussels.
    You are merely absolutely clueless to ANY of the "context" of what the European Commission has been doing in the past few years. 

    Here, help yourself get a clue: 

    https://ec.europa.eu/competition/elojade/isef/

    Do a search for all cases from the last three years. 

    Oh my, the European Commission must really HATE the Deutsche Bahn — an innovative tech company from the United States. And the pay TV companies it ordered to allow access across inter-EU borders. And the European energy companies involved in cross-border electricity transfer between Denmark and Germany. I see canned vegetables, Iberia Airlines, Heidelberg Cement/Italcementi, Teva, Kone Cranes, Boehringer Ingelheim, Chemchina, thermal systems, Baltic rail, and yes, a number of US companies, as well. 

    Oh, and, of course, a formal investigation into the International Skating Union's eligibility rules. 

    Good grief, man.
    edited October 2019
  • Reply 25 of 30
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,068member
    I don’t think there is anything that Apple really did wrong with ApplePay, and am curious why they would survey retailers rather than financial institutions— they are the ones that are “injured” by not allowing direct NFC access.
    Because this isn't just about Apple blocking NFC on devices for competing services (that is also part of this investigation), but about contractual terms between Apple and retailers concerning the implementation of payment options. 
  • Reply 26 of 30
    Payments? Payments?! PAYMENTS?! These EU bureaucrats are a bunch of know-nothing, can’t-innovate-for-crap, inferiority-complex-ridden lotus-eaters, constantly out to penalize American ingenuity because their own tech industry is an agglomeration of clueless buffoons. Pathetic. 

    The US should start to hit back hard. Enough is enough.
    I can not leave it without reaction. Your pity there are no dislike button.I can easily shoot back.

    this is typical US hot head. Shooting around without any relevant info and proof. See chemical weapons in Iraq, chemical attacks in Syria and so on.

    I do not like EU bureaucrats as well but there are situation when they watch that economy serve society not society economy.

    this vague article says little about what are real complains and reason of investigation. So your conclusion represent just you.

  • Reply 27 of 30
    spheric said:

    "... just because one out of a thousand investigations happens to target a company from the US, you have serious issues that are neither Europe's, nor Apple's problem."
    Provide data that backs that up assertion vis-a-vis US tech companies and EU "investigations", and you might perhaps start to acquire a shed of credibility ...
    edited October 2019
  • Reply 28 of 30

    frantisek said:
    Payments? Payments?! PAYMENTS?! These EU bureaucrats are a bunch of know-nothing, can’t-innovate-for-crap, inferiority-complex-ridden lotus-eaters, constantly out to penalize American ingenuity because their own tech industry is an agglomeration of clueless buffoons. Pathetic. 

    The US should start to hit back hard. Enough is enough.
    I can not leave it without reaction. Your pity there are no dislike button.I can easily shoot back.

    this is typical US hot head. Shooting around without any relevant info and proof. See chemical weapons in Iraq, chemical attacks in Syria and so on.

    I do not like EU bureaucrats as well but there are situation when they watch that economy serve society not society economy.

    this vague article says little about what are real complains and reason of investigation. So your conclusion represent just you.

    This is not a very smart post. To say that the US government is stupid (a given), and that your government is less stupid has to the one of the most lame arguments I've heard on this forum.

    Stick to the topic.
  • Reply 29 of 30
    crowley said:
    bonobob said:
    Leaving aside the question of whether chip & pin amounts to a ‘smart’ card, you’re basically saying there’s lots of competition then. Apple’s apparently just a recent entrant and a follower. 

    So, what’s the actual — or even potential — antitrust issue then?
    Using NFC, Google can't run Google pay on an iPhone, Samsung can't run Samsung Pay on an iPhone, etc.
    Total straw man. Google can create an an interface to work via Apple Wallet just as anyone else (incl Apple with its card) can. 

    Of course they won’t, since Apple’s chip won’t give them any data. 
    Can they?  I thought third party Apple Wallet cards couldn't use NFC, that's why they have QR codes or barcodes on them.  Since point of sale devices in the EU (near) universally accept contactless via NFC and don't accept QR or barcodes for payments, then there is a pretty clear case of Apple using its competitive advantage as the hardware and system software provider to enhance its own Apple Pay offering ahead of its competitors.  Given iPhone doesn't have a majority market share its arguable over whether that constitutes enough to warrant regulatory action, but there appears to me to be little argument that it's an anti-competitive behaviour, even if security is a prominent reason in Apple's design thinking.
    Um... what? Here's, for example, info from American Express's website on how their card system works via NFC in Apple's wallet (https://network.americanexpress.com/globalnetwork/products-and-services/digital/mobile-nfc/):

    "Near-Field Communication (NFC) utilizes the same tap-to-pay technology as contactless chips, but instead of using their Card, consumers can load their payment information onto their NFC-enabled mobile phone. In addition to the standard contactless features, NFC technology helps to engage consumers in a new way, enabling Merchants to push relevant offers through the phone and delivering a convenient way to pay  AMEX Digital Solutions provides acquirers with NFC specifications to enable POS terminals to accept American Express Cards on digital wallets and Issuers with solutions to integrate digital wallets to Card Member’s NFC-enabled phones."

    I am simply suggesting that Google could do the same. They could easily design a payment interface/software (say, a la the AppleCard) that offers all the functionality of ApplePay, including contactless, and tap-to-pay. Actually, there is no reason to offer a physical card (just as the case with AppleCard). Payment will still require authentication via TouchID or FaceID (which are walled off) just as it does with my bank or brokerage account, or any credit card payment I make via ApplePay. Apple simply seems to be saying, "hey, we want to allow completely free access to the NFC chip. Everyone is welcome to cooperate and offer their NFC products through the Wallet app."
    edited October 2019
  • Reply 30 of 30
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,068member
    spheric said:

    "... just because one out of a thousand investigations happens to target a company from the US, you have serious issues that are neither Europe's, nor Apple's problem."
    Provide data that backs that up assertion vis-a-vis US tech companies and EU "investigations", and you might perhaps start to acquire a shed of credibility ...
    I literally just did one post down. There’s a link to the European Commission‘s database, for you to look it up. 
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