Apple's brawny 5G iPhone family will require larger, pricey motherboards

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 99
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    auxio said:
    tht said:
    for a cellular functionality that I won’t really experience unless I’m packed in a room with 50,000 of my closest friends. 
    I don't really understand this part.  My expectation with 5G is that I won't experience the speed increases unless I'm in a downtown urban area where it was worthwhile to build a 5G tower (which thankfully I live close to).
    I can’t read the minds of the vendors doing the various roll outs but I see spect the big reason to go urban first is the likelihood that there will be far more customers to pay for everything. The other problems are technical and this is where the 5G experience might not be what many expect. Penetration into buildings will suffer and cell density can help with that but I expect lots of fall backs in data rates or even loss connections. Maybe you haven’t noticed but 5G isn’t getting the wild marketing actions like 4G did. The service providers are still trying to figure out how to manage customer expectations. Apple is likely in the same boat. It will simply take awhile to get that 100% coverage that users have grown to love. The urban landscape is one reason why I like to say that 5G might work better for many users in more rural areas. Even here it will depend on what type of rural area we are talking about but often it is far easier to maintain line of site to a tower. If people would remember back to the early years of smart phones AT&T had some serious issues in a couple of cities due to no licenses to operate in the lower frequency bands. They had this issue until switching bands. 5G operates at much higher frequencies than that so issues related to power, penetration and so forth, will be worse. In most cases anyways, radio frequency electronics can be strange. Now don’t get me wrong, I really like the idea of 5G. However im I no rush to get a 5G phone. Instead let the early raptors suffer through the roll outs.
    gilly33watto_cobra
  • Reply 22 of 99
    DAalseth said:
    ITGUYINSD said:
    I've yet to be convinced that this whole "5G thing" isn't really a fleecing of consumers because carriers (and phone manufacturers) have run out of ways to innovate and need a revenue stream in the coming years.

    It's going to be spotty coverage.  It doesn't penetrate buildings well.  Short distance.  And, most of all, who needs that sort of speed on a phone?  You're not going to watch a 2 hour movie any faster!  Not to say some people won't have some reason to validate ridiculously fast speeds on a phone, but for 99% of us, isn't the existing 4GLTE system plenty fast?   If the carriers just worked on filling in the dead spots for that, who needs 5G?  The other day, on AT&T, I was getting 100 down/50 up.  Why would I need anything faster on my iPhone?

    And now, 5G devices will be more expensive, bigger, hotter, etc.  Not convinced.

    Exactly right. And that’s why I’m getting an 11. Here in the land of heavy rain, thick forests, and long distances, it will be a looooong time before we get 5G, and even then I don’t expect much if any benefit. (Heck, i still run into spots of 3G around here.) I’ll use my 11 for 3-5 years and then see what things look like. If I need a big or fast download, nearly every office, coffee shop, or house around here has Shaw Open wifi. I’m very much not waiting for, or even that excited about 5G. I see through the hype.
    I'll be staying with my iPhone 8+ for awhile longer. No big rush. My heavy duty work is on my 5K iMac even if I have an iPad Pro. I have Rogers for my cell and everything else is Telus.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 99
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    I would be happy if Apple releases an SE2 next year, without 5G!

    I'd be happy with such a phone, and I have zero use for any 5G for the foreseeable future. It sounds like there are too many tradeoffs and disadvantages, and I simply have no use for downloading any huge films or files in 5 secs on my phone.

    I currently have a regular SE which I'm using as my main phone, and it's plenty speedy on LTE for my usage, and it's still working great.


    Gabywatto_cobrawilliamlondonAppleExposed
  • Reply 24 of 99
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    tht said:
    tht said:
    Sounds like Apple could wait until 2021 for a 5G phone. Sheesh. It is a lose-lose-lose. More power consumption, means more heat, means bigger battery, means bigger devices, leading to a more expensive phone, for a cellular functionality that I won’t really experience unless I’m packed in a room with 50,000 of my closest friends. 

    Is 5 nm going be enough to make 5G functionality worthwhile?
    Then they will have lost the China market which is far ahead of the U.S. -- rolling 5G out nationally this week.  Meanwhile, the U.S. shot itself in the foot with 5G and is increasingly lagging behind the rest of the world.   But, the U.S. is a minor part of the world market.   Apple can't afford to sit on its butt for much longer. 

    And besides, these days, for most people,  phones don't get used for 1 or even 2 years and then discarded.  Who wants to invest $1,000 in a phone that'll soon be obsolete?  Only those who trade their's in every year.
    They can afford to wait another year for the hardware to become more efficient. It looks like they aren’t and are shipping 5G phones in 2020, so it’s a moot point, but these phones rumored by Kuo do not sound very good unless he is confused, and Apple will do a much better job putting everything together.

    If the tradeoff for 5G is a hotter, bigger phone, it’s not the people buying LTE phones that are obsolete. The latter gets a phone with mature technology, long run times, runs, cooler, and is reliable. They will work well for a long time.

    It’s the early adopters of 5G phones who are buying obsolete phones. They run hot - hot enough that some models have to turn off 5G to cool down in order to continue to work - and the availability is spotty. In 2021 or 2022, those 2019/2020 5G phone buyers are the ones who should be upgrading to more efficient 5G phones so they can have the same experience as LTE phone buyers, with whatever benefits 5G provides.
    Yes, Apple can afford to wait.   But, will their customers?   The lack of availability of 5G phones is one of the reasons why Apple has already lost market share in China while others, mostly Huawei, gained.

    Plus, 5G is not something new -- carriers and providers have been working on it for years and Apple caved in to Qualcomm just to get a 5G modem instead of waiting for Intel or their own engineers.

    Every new product has its hurdles that give ammunition to the nay sayers.    I like the quote from one of Robert Heinlein's novels:  "Always listen to the experts.  They'll tell you what can't be done and why.  Then you are free to go ahead knowing the pitfalls to avoid."  (Well, that was it to best of my poor old memory!)
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 25 of 99
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    Apple's first 5G iPhones are expected to rip movies, emails and photos down from the cloud at record speeds
    While that statement is correct, it does not fit with history that tells us that major communications advances change computing in profound ways.   Who could have predicted how dial-up or ethernet would change how formerly stand-alone computers were used -- or how high speed cable would change how formerly dial-up computers are used.   Today, the best comparison for 5G is comparing high speed cable to 4G.   So, one could say that nothing will change, it'll just get a little faster.   But one would probably be wrong.

    As for cost:  all new technologies start with a price premium.  My first desktop computer cost over $9,000 and my iPhone 6+ cost more than my grandson's Xr.  Yes, the initial 5G phones will likely be pricey.   That won't last long.
    There are an awful lot of users who don't rip movies etc with their phones.
    There is nothing I want from 5G that 4G does not already give me and I'm not alone in that.
    TBH, the probability of me watching a movie on a phone sized screen is close to zero. I'd rather watch paint dry.
    I hope that there will still be a choice of non 5G phones (and hence no price premium) to choose from for some years to come.

    Ok.  that's fine.  But it has nothing to do with the point of the post you responded to.
  • Reply 26 of 99
    wood1208 said:
    Apple did smart move to hold on until 2020 or later to release 5G iphones. I am thinking to stay bit longer on LTE. But, more curious to know how Apple will keep iPhone 12(equivalent to current iPhone 11) price lower by not offering 5G or by not offering OLED or both ? something got to give up for $699 price point.
    Rumor has it that for 2020 only the “Pro” models will be 5G.

    UPDATE: Looks like Kuo has revised his prediction — all 2020 iPhones will get 5G.
    edited November 2019 philboogie
  • Reply 27 of 99
    lkrupp said:
    tht said:
    Sounds like Apple could wait until 2021 for a 5G phone. Sheesh. It is a lose-lose-lose. More power consumption, means more heat, means bigger battery, means bigger devices, leading to a more expensive phone, for a cellular functionality that I won’t really experience unless I’m packed in a room with 50,000 of my closest friends. 

    Is 5 nm going be enough to make 5G functionality worthwhile?
    And remember that other 5G phone makers are experiencing the exact same issues. This is not an Apple exclusive. 5G is apparently a battery hog right now and it looks like Apple’s penchant for thinness has bumped up against engineering reality when it comes to 5G. We’ll see how this pans out but Apple has pulled a rabbit out of its hat a number of times in the past. It also points out that the Achilles Heel of all these great inventions is battery technology itself which doesn’t seem to be making as much progress as is needed. Pushing electrons around in a circuit is an almost 200 year old endeavor with Volta inventing the first true battery in 1800 . The chemistry involved is difficult and sometimes dangerous as smartphone and laptop owners have found out the hard way. Watch one of those videos where e-cig vapers have their pants blow up.
    First battery was know at early medieval age or even earlier. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Battery
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 99
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    vman815 said:
    wood1208 said:
    Apple did smart move to hold on until 2020 or later to release 5G iphones. I am thinking to stay bit longer on LTE. But, more curious to know how Apple will keep iPhone 12(equivalent to current iPhone 11) price lower by not offering 5G or by not offering OLED or both ? something got to give up for $699 price point.
    Rumor has it that for 2020 only the “Pro” models will be 5G.
    Rumor my ass.

    Nobody knows what Apple will be releasing exactly in Sept 2020. That's almost a full year away.


    watto_cobraAppleExposed
  • Reply 29 of 99
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    I'm not too sure I want to live next to any towers. Bad enough all of the EMFs around we have to live with. I guess it's time to get a larger tin foil hat and space blanket.
    auxio said:
    tht said:
    for a cellular functionality that I won’t really experience unless I’m packed in a room with 50,000 of my closest friends. 
    I don't really understand this part.  My expectation with 5G is that I won't experience the speed increases unless I'm in a downtown urban area where it was worthwhile to build a 5G tower (which thankfully I live close to).
    In my neighborhood (suburban, not urban) Verizon bought and refurbished all the telephone poles.   There is only one reason to do that:  Put a 5G transmitter on each.   I have  poles within 50 yards of my house. 

    To get rural coverage will require government intervention.   But that will never happen because the rural areas all vote Republican -- who hate government.  But that still leaves the majority of the people of this country covered.
    gilly33
  • Reply 30 of 99
    uraharaurahara Posts: 733member
    Why are people so eager on 5G?
    I am just fine with my LTE. And usually I don't need even those speeds. Any streaming video 720p is fine even on 3G.
    So what would I need 5G for?
    ITGUYINSDGabywatto_cobraAppleExposed
  • Reply 31 of 99
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    wizard69 said:
    auxio said:
    tht said:
    for a cellular functionality that I won’t really experience unless I’m packed in a room with 50,000 of my closest friends. 
    I don't really understand this part.  My expectation with 5G is that I won't experience the speed increases unless I'm in a downtown urban area where it was worthwhile to build a 5G tower (which thankfully I live close to).
    I can’t read the minds of the vendors doing the various roll outs but I see spect the big reason to go urban first is the likelihood that there will be far more customers to pay for everything. The other problems are technical and this is where the 5G experience might not be what many expect. Penetration into buildings will suffer and cell density can help with that but I expect lots of fall backs in data rates or even loss connections. Maybe you haven’t noticed but 5G isn’t getting the wild marketing actions like 4G did. The service providers are still trying to figure out how to manage customer expectations. Apple is likely in the same boat. It will simply take awhile to get that 100% coverage that users have grown to love. The urban landscape is one reason why I like to say that 5G might work better for many users in more rural areas. Even here it will depend on what type of rural area we are talking about but often it is far easier to maintain line of site to a tower. If people would remember back to the early years of smart phones AT&T had some serious issues in a couple of cities due to no licenses to operate in the lower frequency bands. They had this issue until switching bands. 5G operates at much higher frequencies than that so issues related to power, penetration and so forth, will be worse. In most cases anyways, radio frequency electronics can be strange. Now don’t get me wrong, I really like the idea of 5G. However im I no rush to get a 5G phone. Instead let the early raptors suffer through the roll outs.
    Don't judge 5G by the U.S. -- we are lagging behind because politics put the rollout mostly on hold.  
  • Reply 32 of 99
    thttht Posts: 5,530member

    auxio said:
    tht said:
    for a cellular functionality that I won’t really experience unless I’m packed in a room with 50,000 of my closest friends. 
    I don't really understand this part.  My expectation with 5G is that I won't experience the speed increases unless I'm in a downtown urban area where it was worthwhile to build a 5G tower (which thankfully I live close to).
    LTE-A gets you 1 Gbit/s now. That’s like 10x faster than my cable modem. Unless you are one of those whales that download GB sized files a lot, those milliseconds you save with downloading webpages isn’t going to be something you’ll really feel. If download speed is actually gated by the network that is, and not the server or some other point in the network.

    The worst experience people feel with their phone service is the lack of data while at some crowded location. For most people, this happens like once a year (at a concert, sports event, whatever event), and 5G can help with this. That’s a pretty tough sell for new data plans and new phones.

    For me, I’d prefer if they would give me one more bar of LTE everywhere I am, and 2x the data allotment. This would actually save energy on my phone and make it last longer, while giving me more network performance and a more attractive data plan. But the carrier doesn’t want you to use their network. They want you to pay the most for the least amount of use.
    scatzwatto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 99
    thttht Posts: 5,530member
    tht said:
    tht said:
    Sounds like Apple could wait until 2021 for a 5G phone. Sheesh. It is a lose-lose-lose. More power consumption, means more heat, means bigger battery, means bigger devices, leading to a more expensive phone, for a cellular functionality that I won’t really experience unless I’m packed in a room with 50,000 of my closest friends. 

    Is 5 nm going be enough to make 5G functionality worthwhile?
    Then they will have lost the China market which is far ahead of the U.S. -- rolling 5G out nationally this week.  Meanwhile, the U.S. shot itself in the foot with 5G and is increasingly lagging behind the rest of the world.   But, the U.S. is a minor part of the world market.   Apple can't afford to sit on its butt for much longer. 

    And besides, these days, for most people,  phones don't get used for 1 or even 2 years and then discarded.  Who wants to invest $1,000 in a phone that'll soon be obsolete?  Only those who trade their's in every year.
    They can afford to wait another year for the hardware to become more efficient. It looks like they aren’t and are shipping 5G phones in 2020, so it’s a moot point, but these phones rumored by Kuo do not sound very good unless he is confused, and Apple will do a much better job putting everything together.

    If the tradeoff for 5G is a hotter, bigger phone, it’s not the people buying LTE phones that are obsolete. The latter gets a phone with mature technology, long run times, runs, cooler, and is reliable. They will work well for a long time.

    It’s the early adopters of 5G phones who are buying obsolete phones. They run hot - hot enough that some models have to turn off 5G to cool down in order to continue to work - and the availability is spotty. In 2021 or 2022, those 2019/2020 5G phone buyers are the ones who should be upgrading to more efficient 5G phones so they can have the same experience as LTE phone buyers, with whatever benefits 5G provides.
    Yes, Apple can afford to wait.   But, will their customers?   The lack of availability of 5G phones is one of the reasons why Apple has already lost market share in China while others, mostly Huawei, gained.

    Plus, 5G is not something new -- carriers and providers have been working on it for years and Apple caved in to Qualcomm just to get a 5G modem instead of waiting for Intel or their own engineers.

    Every new product has its hurdles that give ammunition to the nay sayers.    I like the quote from one of Robert Heinlein's novels:  "Always listen to the experts.  They'll tell you what can't be done and why.  Then you are free to go ahead knowing the pitfalls to avoid."  (Well, that was it to best of my poor old memory!)
    Yup. The customers will wait. They aren’t upgrading because of a new network technology. If network speed beyond 10 Mbit/s actually mattered, the USA would be wired with fiber by now, instead of living with the slow incremental improvements from cable. Don’t see why this will change with cellular. Apple can wait, but they aren’t and are shipping 5G models next Fall, so moot point. 

    Don’t think Apple’s China sales has much to do with network technology these days.
    fastasleepwatto_cobra
  • Reply 34 of 99
    One thing’s for sure: Apple won’t be adding $400 for 5G. We’re not going to see a $1,099 iPhone 11S, a $1,399 11S Pro or a $1,499 11S Pro Max. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 35 of 99
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    tht said:
    tht said:
    tht said:
    Sounds like Apple could wait until 2021 for a 5G phone. Sheesh. It is a lose-lose-lose. More power consumption, means more heat, means bigger battery, means bigger devices, leading to a more expensive phone, for a cellular functionality that I won’t really experience unless I’m packed in a room with 50,000 of my closest friends. 

    Is 5 nm going be enough to make 5G functionality worthwhile?
    Then they will have lost the China market which is far ahead of the U.S. -- rolling 5G out nationally this week.  Meanwhile, the U.S. shot itself in the foot with 5G and is increasingly lagging behind the rest of the world.   But, the U.S. is a minor part of the world market.   Apple can't afford to sit on its butt for much longer. 

    And besides, these days, for most people,  phones don't get used for 1 or even 2 years and then discarded.  Who wants to invest $1,000 in a phone that'll soon be obsolete?  Only those who trade their's in every year.
    They can afford to wait another year for the hardware to become more efficient. It looks like they aren’t and are shipping 5G phones in 2020, so it’s a moot point, but these phones rumored by Kuo do not sound very good unless he is confused, and Apple will do a much better job putting everything together.

    If the tradeoff for 5G is a hotter, bigger phone, it’s not the people buying LTE phones that are obsolete. The latter gets a phone with mature technology, long run times, runs, cooler, and is reliable. They will work well for a long time.

    It’s the early adopters of 5G phones who are buying obsolete phones. They run hot - hot enough that some models have to turn off 5G to cool down in order to continue to work - and the availability is spotty. In 2021 or 2022, those 2019/2020 5G phone buyers are the ones who should be upgrading to more efficient 5G phones so they can have the same experience as LTE phone buyers, with whatever benefits 5G provides.
    Yes, Apple can afford to wait.   But, will their customers?   The lack of availability of 5G phones is one of the reasons why Apple has already lost market share in China while others, mostly Huawei, gained.

    Plus, 5G is not something new -- carriers and providers have been working on it for years and Apple caved in to Qualcomm just to get a 5G modem instead of waiting for Intel or their own engineers.

    Every new product has its hurdles that give ammunition to the nay sayers.    I like the quote from one of Robert Heinlein's novels:  "Always listen to the experts.  They'll tell you what can't be done and why.  Then you are free to go ahead knowing the pitfalls to avoid."  (Well, that was it to best of my poor old memory!)
    Yup. The customers will wait. They aren’t upgrading because of a new network technology. If network speed beyond 10 Mbit/s actually mattered, the USA would be wired with fiber by now, instead of living with the slow incremental improvements from cable. Don’t see why this will change with cellular. Apple can wait, but they aren’t and are shipping 5G models next Fall, so moot point. 

    Don’t think Apple’s China sales has much to do with network technology these days.
    You may not think so -- but since China is leading the world in 5G, that is an unlikely assumption.  Apple has already slipped there and will slip further if they don't produce a 5G phone soon.
    gatorguy
  • Reply 36 of 99
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,831member
    A few points:

    https://www.ericsson.com/en/trends-and-insights/consumerlab/consumer-insights/reports/5g-consumer-potential

    The number one infrastructure cost for carriers after installation is energy consumption and rents. 5G reduces cell tower energy consumption significantly. It is reasonable that carriers have a clear reason to move to 5G as quickly as possible. Aiding with that are improvements in size and weight which allow for one man installations where before, cranes, teams and special permissions for road closure were needed.

    From a technological perspective 5G should greatly improve coverage, speed and QoS in areas that are currently saturated.
    applesnorangesGeorgeBMac
  • Reply 37 of 99
    If everyone moves to 5G, then hopefully LTE speeds would improve and I could stay with it much longer. I remembered when I just got my iPhone 5 I tested LTE in many locations and it often reached 40 to 50 mbps.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 38 of 99
    DAalsethDAalseth Posts: 2,836member
    DAalseth said:
    ITGUYINSD said:
    I've yet to be convinced that this whole "5G thing" isn't really a fleecing of consumers because carriers (and phone manufacturers) have run out of ways to innovate and need a revenue stream in the coming years.

    It's going to be spotty coverage.  It doesn't penetrate buildings well.  Short distance.  And, most of all, who needs that sort of speed on a phone?  You're not going to watch a 2 hour movie any faster!  Not to say some people won't have some reason to validate ridiculously fast speeds on a phone, but for 99% of us, isn't the existing 4GLTE system plenty fast?   If the carriers just worked on filling in the dead spots for that, who needs 5G?  The other day, on AT&T, I was getting 100 down/50 up.  Why would I need anything faster on my iPhone?

    And now, 5G devices will be more expensive, bigger, hotter, etc.  Not convinced.

    Exactly right. And that’s why I’m getting an 11. Here in the land of heavy rain, thick forests, and long distances, it will be a looooong time before we get 5G, and even then I don’t expect much if any benefit. (Heck, i still run into spots of 3G around here.) I’ll use my 11 for 3-5 years and then see what things look like. If I need a big or fast download, nearly every office, coffee shop, or house around here has Shaw Open wifi. I’m very much not waiting for, or even that excited about 5G. I see through the hype.
    I'll be staying with my iPhone 8+ for awhile longer. No big rush. My heavy duty work is on my 5K iMac even if I have an iPad Pro. I have Rogers for my cell and everything else is Telus.
    If we had 8s we would too. But we have a 6 and a near release day SE. They are due.
    watto_cobraGeorgeBMac
  • Reply 39 of 99
    ITGUYINSD said:
    I've yet to be convinced that this whole "5G thing" isn't really a fleecing of consumers because carriers (and phone manufacturers) have run out of ways to innovate and need a revenue stream in the coming years.

    It's going to be spotty coverage.  It doesn't penetrate buildings well.  Short distance.  And, most of all, who needs that sort of speed on a phone?  You're not going to watch a 2 hour movie any faster!  Not to say some people won't have some reason to validate ridiculously fast speeds on a phone, but for 99% of us, isn't the existing 4GLTE system plenty fast?   If the carriers just worked on filling in the dead spots for that, who needs 5G?  The other day, on AT&T, I was getting 100 down/50 up.  Why would I need anything faster on my iPhone?

    And now, 5G devices will be more expensive, bigger, hotter, etc.  Not convinced.

    I’m inclined to go along with you. Still get call failures in areas that it shouldn’t with AT&T. And they are pushing 5G for what? No thank you. If next year’s iPhone gets a bump in price because of some motherboard to accommodate 5G then I’ll upgrade to the 11 pro. Just saying. Ain’t spending anymore money on something that is a marketing plan where I have to be in an urban location to enjoy. No thanks. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 40 of 99
    DAalseth said:
    ITGUYINSD said:
    I've yet to be convinced that this whole "5G thing" isn't really a fleecing of consumers because carriers (and phone manufacturers) have run out of ways to innovate and need a revenue stream in the coming years.

    It's going to be spotty coverage.  It doesn't penetrate buildings well.  Short distance.  And, most of all, who needs that sort of speed on a phone?  You're not going to watch a 2 hour movie any faster!  Not to say some people won't have some reason to validate ridiculously fast speeds on a phone, but for 99% of us, isn't the existing 4GLTE system plenty fast?   If the carriers just worked on filling in the dead spots for that, who needs 5G?  The other day, on AT&T, I was getting 100 down/50 up.  Why would I need anything faster on my iPhone?

    And now, 5G devices will be more expensive, bigger, hotter, etc.  Not convinced.

    Exactly right. And that’s why I’m getting an 11. Here in the land of heavy rain, thick forests, and long distances, it will be a looooong time before we get 5G, and even then I don’t expect much if any benefit. (Heck, i still run into spots of 3G around here.) I’ll use my 11 for 3-5 years and then see what things look like. If I need a big or fast download, nearly every office, coffee shop, or house around here has Shaw Open wifi. I’m very much not waiting for, or even that excited about 5G. I see through the hype.
    Agreed. It’s funny how all the self perceived tech gurus spew this stuff on YouTube and tech sites like if Apple is a being left behind the likes of Samsung et al in not being early adopters of this technology. When in reality 5G is not the ‘promised land’ they make it out to be. Hell they can’t even eliminate dead zones which I understand logistically but how about work on that problem first uh?
    edited November 2019 watto_cobralkruppAppleExposed
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