Apple said to partner with Valve to make AR headset

Posted:
in General Discussion edited November 2019
A report claims that Apple is working with game distributor Valve for the development of an Augmented Reality head-mounted display, which may be released in the second half of 2020.

Apple Park AR
Next year we may be able to do this without holding up an iPad to our faces.


Citing supply chain reports, Digitimes claims that Apple has partnered with the game developer, Valve, in order to produce an Augmented Reality headset. As well as developing the headset with Steam, Apple is said to be using familiar suppliers Pegatron and Quanta Computer to assemble the device. It's not expected to be released before the second half of 2020 at the earliest.

Valve wouldn't be providing VR or AR experiences itself, but could use the Steam distribution system to distribute them. Back in 2017, Valve leveraged Apple's macOS High Sierra's eGPU and virtual reality support to bring a beta version of its SteamVR to the Mac.

Then for macOS Mojave, Apple worked with both Valve and HTC to support their HTC Vive Pro headset for VR.

This timescale reported by Digitimes is later than previously predicted by analyst Ming-Chi Kuo. Last month, he reported that production of an AR headset would begin before the end of this year, with a launch in the second quarter of 2020.

Digitimes does not have the greatest reliability in its Apple reporting. Most significantly, it claimed in July that Apple had abandoned its AR Glasses project entirely. This new report admits that wasn't correct, but attributes it to Apple purportedly closing its internal project in favor of this collaboration with Valve.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 24
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,302member
    A report claims that Apple is working with game distributor Valve

    Valve wouldn't be providing the VR experiences itself, but could use the Steam distribution system to distribute them. .
    Rather than AR as the focus Apple will be targeting VR uses like gaming, just the opposite of what has been reported in the past couple of years??
    I remember Mr Cook not all that long ago arguing that augmented reality is preferable to virtual reality. Partnering with a gaming company on the development seems at odds with that. 
  • Reply 2 of 24
    gatorguy said:
    Rather than AR as the focus Apple will be targeting VR uses like gaming, just the opposite of what has been reported in the past couple of years??
    Disagree - I think if Apple nails this, it will be huge, as big as the iPhone for them. The release of this can’t happen soon enough
    kuraiwatto_cobra
  • Reply 3 of 24
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,302member
    gatorguy said:
    Rather than AR as the focus Apple will be targeting VR uses like gaming, just the opposite of what has been reported in the past couple of years??
    Disagree - I think if Apple nails this, it will be huge, as big as the iPhone for them. The release of this can’t happen soon enough
    What are you disagreeing with, Mr. Cook's comments from a few months ago? 
    edited November 2019
  • Reply 4 of 24
    gatorguy said:
    A report claims that Apple is working with game distributor Valve

    Valve wouldn't be providing the VR experiences itself, but could use the Steam distribution system to distribute them. .
    Rather than AR as the focus Apple will be targeting VR uses like gaming, just the opposite of what has been reported in the past couple of years??
    I remember Mr Cook not all that long ago arguing that augmented reality is preferable to virtual reality. Partnering with a gaming company on the development seems at odds with that. 
    Quite the opposite actually. AR in many respects is even better for gaming. With even more immersive potential, less issues with disconnected movement sickness and more.

    from multiplayer, to board games, to interactive stories, alt reality tie ins (such as marvel or star wars), next level or virtualised existing sports, first person shooting - AR is going to be better, healthier, more engaging and self promoting.

    not so much for vehicle simulators
    repressthiswatto_cobra
  • Reply 5 of 24
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,302member
    gatorguy said:
    A report claims that Apple is working with game distributor Valve

    Valve wouldn't be providing the VR experiences itself, but could use the Steam distribution system to distribute them. .
    Rather than AR as the focus Apple will be targeting VR uses like gaming, just the opposite of what has been reported in the past couple of years??
    I remember Mr Cook not all that long ago arguing that augmented reality is preferable to virtual reality. Partnering with a gaming company on the development seems at odds with that. 
    Quite the opposite actually. AR in many respects is even better for gaming. With even more immersive potential, less issues with disconnected movement sickness and more.

    from multiplayer, to board games, to interactive stories, alt reality tie ins (such as marvel or star wars), next level or virtualised existing sports, first person shooting - AR is going to be better, healthier, more engaging and self promoting.

    not so much for vehicle simulators
    The AI article implies it will involve VirtualReality.
  • Reply 6 of 24
    I was wondering if Apple was going to pay more attention to VR after being quiet for a while. VR was last mentioned during WWDC 2018 in a Metal for VR session. Since Metal is the graphics programming language that will be used for any Apple VR headset, it is possible Apple, Valve and HTC decided to wait for the new Mac Pro and the version of Metal before moving forward with VR.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 7 of 24
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,426member
    Just wandering thoughts ...  Not pertaining to this article as such but it would be nice if an Apple / Valve relationship could grow ( like Apple / AMD) and to see Steam become Metal compliant.  If somehow all those PC only games could somehow be available to macOS ... /sigh
    AppleExposedwatto_cobra
  • Reply 8 of 24
    crowleycrowley Posts: 9,111member
    Imma take that to mean it won’t be less than $1000
  • Reply 9 of 24
    blastdoorblastdoor Posts: 2,488member
    Seems a little odd. Why does Apple need Valve? Apple runs its own app stores, Apple designs its own hardware, etc. Unless Apple's internal team has just really screwed up here (which is certainly possible), I don't see why Apple would need to partner with Valve in any meaningful way. 
    repressthiswatto_cobra
  • Reply 10 of 24
    Can we please get a correction in the article.  Either delete the center section on the VR relationship...

    Valve wouldn't be providing the VR experiences itself, but could use the Steam distribution system to distribute them. Back in 2017, Valve leveraged Apple's macOS High Sierra's eGPU and virtual reality support to bring a beta version of its SteamVR to the Mac.
    Then for macOS Mojave, Apple worked with both Valve and HTC to support their HTC Vive Pro headset for VR.

    ... or put it in proper context.  As written, the article is incorrectly implying a VR relationship, not an AR retationship.  That's what @gatorguy is trying to convey.  This new relationship has nothing to do with VR experiences or delivering them through Steam.  Valve is there to collab on the AR device.  It's an AR relationship that's better defined in MacRumors article: https://www.macrumors.com/2019/11/04/apple-has-partnered-with-valve-ar-headset/  Relevant quote:
    Apple will cooperate with Valve on AR headsets rather than VR devices, as its CEO Tim Cook believes that AR can make digital content become part of the user's world and will be as popular as smartphones with consumers. This has also promoted Apple to step up the development of AR software by recruiting more engineers for graphic design, system interface and system architecture segments.
    Digitimes has a suspect track record regarding accuracy but the AI article should at least accurately reflect what Digitimes is claiming.  AR not VR
    edited November 2019 repressthis
  • Reply 11 of 24
    FatmanFatman Posts: 513member
    It's been proven no one wants another boxy, heavy, dorky looking headset - there have been plenty of product failures already. You also look like a moron using these things as you trip over your coffee table and walk into the couch. AR is the way to go - until it can fit into lightweight glasses, the masses will not buy it. Google was on the right track with their Glass products years ago. My guess - Apple will launch a product that essentially will be 'Google Glass 2.0'... and that's not a dig, that's a good thing.
    gatorguytjwolf
  • Reply 12 of 24
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,498member
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    A report claims that Apple is working with game distributor Valve

    Valve wouldn't be providing the VR experiences itself, but could use the Steam distribution system to distribute them. .
    Rather than AR as the focus Apple will be targeting VR uses like gaming, just the opposite of what has been reported in the past couple of years??
    I remember Mr Cook not all that long ago arguing that augmented reality is preferable to virtual reality. Partnering with a gaming company on the development seems at odds with that. 
    Quite the opposite actually. AR in many respects is even better for gaming. With even more immersive potential, less issues with disconnected movement sickness and more.

    from multiplayer, to board games, to interactive stories, alt reality tie ins (such as marvel or star wars), next level or virtualised existing sports, first person shooting - AR is going to be better, healthier, more engaging and self promoting.

    not so much for vehicle simulators
    The AI article implies it will involve VirtualReality.
    AR is virtual elements overlaid on real world imaging, whereas VR is 100% virtual elements. When your AR headset reaches the capability for 100% virtual elements, and all of the real world imaging is occluded, then, your AR headset/viewer is essentially a VR headset. 

    The benefit of leading development efforts with AR, is that the proportion of virtual elements that your AR headset/viewer provides are in line with your available computational capabilities.

    Seems obvious to me that Apple is approaching the ability to provide 100% of the virtual elements, while still retaining the capability of a real world imaging of AR for fully mixed reality extended reality.
    edited November 2019 watto_cobra
  • Reply 13 of 24
    gatorguy said:
    A report claims that Apple is working with game distributor Valve

    Valve wouldn't be providing the VR experiences itself, but could use the Steam distribution system to distribute them. .
    Rather than AR as the focus Apple will be targeting VR uses like gaming, just the opposite of what has been reported in the past couple of years??
    I remember Mr Cook not all that long ago arguing that augmented reality is preferable to virtual reality. Partnering with a gaming company on the development seems at odds with that. 
    VR is a stepping stone towards AR.  It allows content to start being generated.  VR/AR is ideal for rhythm/music games and games/experiences with social features.  I think this is an appealing area for Apple that has never been interested in console style gaming.  This is also the reason Facebook is getting in to operating systems with the Oculus Quest.  The technologies are similar, but VR is easier to implement.  I think it is likely that if the initial device doesn't use waveguide displays it will at least have a camera to allow some AR uses.  They need the cameras for tracking anyway.  Part of the reason for the partnership might be to brand the hardware differently if they want to wait for waveguides to build a device with Apple branding.  I don't think it is likely to happen, but imagine if Apple acquired steam and really got in to gaming?

    EDIT: I don't think Tim Cook was against gaming.  I think he was interested in the capacity for VR/AR to create new social experiences.  That is certainly possible in games and on an AR device built around VR tech.
    edited November 2019 watto_cobra
  • Reply 14 of 24
    All credibility of this rumor evaporated with the mention of DigiTimes.
  • Reply 15 of 24
    gatorguy said:
    A report claims that Apple is working with game distributor Valve

    Valve wouldn't be providing the VR experiences itself, but could use the Steam distribution system to distribute them. .
    Rather than AR as the focus Apple will be targeting VR uses like gaming, just the opposite of what has been reported in the past couple of years??
    I remember Mr Cook not all that long ago arguing that augmented reality is preferable to virtual reality. Partnering with a gaming company on the development seems at odds with that. 
    Quite the opposite actually. AR in many respects is even better for gaming. With even more immersive potential, less issues with disconnected movement sickness and more.

    from multiplayer, to board games, to interactive stories, alt reality tie ins (such as marvel or star wars), next level or virtualised existing sports, first person shooting - AR is going to be better, healthier, more engaging and self promoting.

    not so much for vehicle simulators
    I made an account just to correct the misconception here. AR is far worse for gaming because gamers want hand-crafted game worlds. They do not want the real world, and they certainly don't want only procedural content that AR will have to offer because you can't exactly build Tamriel in the real world and instead have to make bits and pieces that conform to your local surroundings, which will mostly be someone's house and therefore way too small and limited. AR will be great for tabletop games and card games and enhancing existing activities, but that's about it.

    It's also extremely unimmersive today because the field of view is so narrow. VR will always be lightyears ahead in immersion, that's for sure. Overall, AR is just too limited for gaming.

    Not to mention that every example you mention is better in VR aside from maybe board games. Interactive stories in your own house will get old fast. FPS games will be mostly just about target practice and so on.

    I'm sure you have some kind of personal investment in AR which is making you say these things, but they're simply not true.
    edited November 2019 watto_cobra
  • Reply 16 of 24
    AppleExposedAppleExposed Posts: 1,805unconfirmed, member
    IF TRUE:
    Apple becoming the Nintendo Nintendo couldn't be. Valve wanted to work with Nintendo in the past but Nintendo was too busy being cocky.

    gatorguy said:
    A report claims that Apple is working with game distributor Valve

    Valve wouldn't be providing the VR experiences itself, but could use the Steam distribution system to distribute them. .
    Rather than AR as the focus Apple will be targeting VR uses like gaming, just the opposite of what has been reported in the past couple of years??
    I remember Mr Cook not all that long ago arguing that augmented reality is preferable to virtual reality. Partnering with a gaming company on the development seems at odds with that. 
    Quite the opposite actually. AR in many respects is even better for gaming. With even more immersive potential, less issues with disconnected movement sickness and more.

    from multiplayer, to board games, to interactive stories, alt reality tie ins (such as marvel or star wars), next level or virtualised existing sports, first person shooting - AR is going to be better, healthier, more engaging and self promoting.

    not so much for vehicle simulators
    I made an account just to correct the misconception here. AR is far worse for gaming because gamers want hand-crafted game worlds. They do not want the real world, and they certainly don't want only procedural content that AR will have to offer because you can't exactly build Tamriel in the real world and instead have to make bits and pieces that conform to your local surroundings, which will mostly be someone's house and therefore way too small and limited. AR will be great for tabletop games and card games and enhancing existing activities, but that's about it.

    It's also extremely unimmersive today because the field of view is so narrow. VR will always be lightyears ahead in immersion, that's for sure. Overall, AR is just too limited for gaming.

    Not to mention that every example you mention is better in VR aside from maybe board games. Interactive stories in your own house will get old fast. FPS games will be mostly just about target practice and so on.

    I'm sure you have some kind of personal investment in AR which is making you say these things, but they're simply not true.

    A bunch of opinions. At least the OP had a fact thrown in there.
    edited November 2019
  • Reply 17 of 24
    AppleExposedAppleExposed Posts: 1,805unconfirmed, member
    blastdoor said:
    Seems a little odd. Why does Apple need Valve? Apple runs its own app stores, Apple designs its own hardware, etc. Unless Apple's internal team has just really screwed up here (which is certainly possible), I don't see why Apple would need to partner with Valve in any meaningful way. 
    The article is vague and they could just be working on a game together....
  • Reply 18 of 24
    IF TRUE:
    Apple becoming the Nintendo Nintendo couldn't be. Valve wanted to work with Nintendo in the past but Nintendo was too busy being cocky.

    gatorguy said:
    A report claims that Apple is working with game distributor Valve

    Valve wouldn't be providing the VR experiences itself, but could use the Steam distribution system to distribute them. .
    Rather than AR as the focus Apple will be targeting VR uses like gaming, just the opposite of what has been reported in the past couple of years??
    I remember Mr Cook not all that long ago arguing that augmented reality is preferable to virtual reality. Partnering with a gaming company on the development seems at odds with that. 
    Quite the opposite actually. AR in many respects is even better for gaming. With even more immersive potential, less issues with disconnected movement sickness and more.

    from multiplayer, to board games, to interactive stories, alt reality tie ins (such as marvel or star wars), next level or virtualised existing sports, first person shooting - AR is going to be better, healthier, more engaging and self promoting.

    not so much for vehicle simulators
    I made an account just to correct the misconception here. AR is far worse for gaming because gamers want hand-crafted game worlds. They do not want the real world, and they certainly don't want only procedural content that AR will have to offer because you can't exactly build Tamriel in the real world and instead have to make bits and pieces that conform to your local surroundings, which will mostly be someone's house and therefore way too small and limited. AR will be great for tabletop games and card games and enhancing existing activities, but that's about it.

    It's also extremely unimmersive today because the field of view is so narrow. VR will always be lightyears ahead in immersion, that's for sure. Overall, AR is just too limited for gaming.

    Not to mention that every example you mention is better in VR aside from maybe board games. Interactive stories in your own house will get old fast. FPS games will be mostly just about target practice and so on.

    I'm sure you have some kind of personal investment in AR which is making you say these things, but they're simply not true.

    A bunch of opinions. At least the OP had a fact thrown in there.
    This isn't an opinion post. VR is measurably more immersive. It's simple, because VR headsets have a wider field of view. Additionally, many game design constraints are known in VR and AR, and AR falls short considerably compared to VR. You flat out can't do vehicles or any kind of abnormal movement if it's a 1st person perspective unless you use real vehicles and such which people won't be doing on a daily or even weekly basis.
    cy_starkmanwatto_cobra
  • Reply 19 of 24
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    A report claims that Apple is working with game distributor Valve

    Valve wouldn't be providing the VR experiences itself, but could use the Steam distribution system to distribute them. .
    Rather than AR as the focus Apple will be targeting VR uses like gaming, just the opposite of what has been reported in the past couple of years??
    I remember Mr Cook not all that long ago arguing that augmented reality is preferable to virtual reality. Partnering with a gaming company on the development seems at odds with that. 
    Quite the opposite actually. AR in many respects is even better for gaming. With even more immersive potential, less issues with disconnected movement sickness and more.

    from multiplayer, to board games, to interactive stories, alt reality tie ins (such as marvel or star wars), next level or virtualised existing sports, first person shooting - AR is going to be better, healthier, more engaging and self promoting.

    not so much for vehicle simulators
    The AI article implies it will involve VirtualReality.
    no it doesn’t. it merely says valve and apple have done some things in the recent past.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 20 of 24
    gatorguy said:
    A report claims that Apple is working with game distributor Valve

    Valve wouldn't be providing the VR experiences itself, but could use the Steam distribution system to distribute them. .
    Rather than AR as the focus Apple will be targeting VR uses like gaming, just the opposite of what has been reported in the past couple of years??
    I remember Mr Cook not all that long ago arguing that augmented reality is preferable to virtual reality. Partnering with a gaming company on the development seems at odds with that. 
    Quite the opposite actually. AR in many respects is even better for gaming. With even more immersive potential, less issues with disconnected movement sickness and more.

    from multiplayer, to board games, to interactive stories, alt reality tie ins (such as marvel or star wars), next level or virtualised existing sports, first person shooting - AR is going to be better, healthier, more engaging and self promoting.

    not so much for vehicle simulators
    I made an account just to correct the misconception here. AR is far worse for gaming because gamers want hand-crafted game worlds. They do not want the real world, and they certainly don't want only procedural content that AR will have to offer because you can't exactly build Tamriel in the real world and instead have to make bits and pieces that conform to your local surroundings, which will mostly be someone's house and therefore way too small and limited. AR will be great for tabletop games and card games and enhancing existing activities, but that's about it.

    It's also extremely unimmersive today because the field of view is so narrow. VR will always be lightyears ahead in immersion, that's for sure. Overall, AR is just too limited for gaming.

    Not to mention that every example you mention is better in VR aside from maybe board games. Interactive stories in your own house will get old fast. FPS games will be mostly just about target practice and so on.

    I'm sure you have some kind of personal investment in AR which is making you say these things, but they're simply not true.
    i am sorry that you are stuck in an old mind set, or at least one based on consumption of what is old and that what was is what will be.

    VR beats AR in only one category, which i noted, vehicle assisted movement. this is a large category to be sure.

    outside that, VR has much greater issues to deal with over AR. Which needs to improve FOV, but then so does VR. VR has to solve stuff as basic as walking.

    you provide a very narrow scenario, which amounts to a small room or a couch (old thinking) and with that VR is going to need to take over the nervous system “full dive” to solve its issues; or require in the early days those large treadmills, until the game wants you to climb and then what?

    immersion is constantly being broken in VR. Yet you make out as if VR puts you in the experience, which is only true with vehicles. Basically, when you are sitting on your ass.

    i would bank on AR solving FOV before VR solves movement.

    I am not personally invested except to say I have done 25yrs research into both as an entertainment/teaching/communications platform - and both have their pluses and negatives.

    in the case of gaming, trust me, i would love to be roaming around FFXV or HzD in VR; but given both examples break in seconds of gameplay, immersion in VR gaming (non vehicle) is whole fields of science away from us yet.

    Until then AR wins, because it will provide a more diverse range of entertainment with immersion that is harder to break; and easier shared experiences within place based story telling.

    real time object recognition, real time image mapping, real time image processing, merged occlusion/shadows/reflections, physics, depth mapping, live hand, gesture and facial expression detection are all possible now and being put literally into our hands.

    AR will use all that in the next 1-3 years to create immersive experiences in that time scale.

    please tell me where are we up to with paralysing the human body and replacing the motor and sensory systems input and output from the brain; so i can do anything more than walk on a flat surface for a few metres? sure that surface could appear as anywhere we can imagine and that looks great, can give you vertigo - but beyond those few flat metres it all dies on the ass

    unless of course in a vehicle sim which is amazing, really amazing.

    don’t you want to get off your couch?
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