While a highly portable but non-upgradeable & non-repairable $2K+ machine is appealing to many (particularly professionals using it for business purposes), it is not for me and not for most people. It is a niche product. But, there's nothing wrong with niche products -- we need them to fill the niche's.
I don’t understand why you’re trying to convince everyone that most consumers fix their own computers. That’s not now, nor has ever been, the case. It doesn’t matter what the price point is, people take their stuff into Apple to fix when it breaks. Millions and millions of them. It’s literally the opposite of a niche product
LOL... Nice spin on what actually said. Do you work at FauxNews?
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Is this machine non repairable, or not able to be repaired by the average home enthusiast? I am confused by this? Surely Apple wouldn't simply replace the machine if it needed repair? Like say an Apple Care scenario... you take it in for a failure and instead of repairing it they replace the whole machine?
If an SSD or RAM fails (for instance), I seriously doubt the Genius bar would unsolder them and resolder a replacement back onto the machine (although that is physically possible). The same for the keyboard: I doubt they would drill out the rivets holding it in place and re-rivet a new one on. Instead, you would likely just get a replacement machine. Of, if your machine was 366 days old, you would be told to buy a replacement machine. To me, that makes them very expensive disposable items.
Wrong. First instance they’d replace the logic board. Second instance they’d replace the top case which includes the keyboard and battery and trackpad. Third instance you’d pay for either part and labor if you didn’t have AppleCare and the repair wasn’t covered for some reason (sometimes it is) or you’d pay the flat repair rate for your machine ideally which is often far less than the cost of the aforementioned repair costs (around $300-something for a MacBook historically).
That’s been the case for many years, you should maybe stop talking about things you don’t understand.
So, if an SSD goes bad, you would replace the mother board, CPU, GPU memory and controllers? Isn't that a bit like replacng the engine of a car if the battery dies?
On day 366 that so called "repair" (actually replacing most of the machine) would cost nearly as much as a new machine. Your example supports why they listed it as a 1 out of 10 on repairability.-- meaning that it isn't repairable.
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on.
It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)
That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers.
I’m not sure where this garbage about consummers never performing repairs on their cars comes from. It simply doesn’t reflect reality, in fact if you have never addressed a problem on your automobile I’d say you are in the minority. Even Walmart’s dedicate considerable space to high volume maintenance parts. Within a short distance of my home there are at least 3 parts stores selling largely to the owners of automobiles. Frankly service items on a laptop, like the battery, should not be any more difficult to replace than a battery on a car. That means a few common tools and a standardized component.
By the way I have to agree that non upgradeable doesn’t mean disposable. This though drags the discussion off course because being reasonable repairable has nothing to do with being upgradeable. What makes a MBP disposable is when repairs to common items expected to fail costs more than the value of the machine. I’d go so far as to say that Apples repair policies are designed to drive purchases of new equipment. Let’s be honest here, for old Apple hardware you need to go third party for repairs and that only happens if They can get the parts. Apple basically doesn’t want to know you even if the hardware is otherwise serving a need.
You seem to not understand brakes. Have them go bad and you will understand that they are an item that can require repair. As for PC’s, at work the IT department does a surprising amount of repairs to laptops, desktops and even stuff in the server room. For a reasonably sized organization it is far more cost effective to repair in house. So things like batteries, keyboards and so forth get replaced in laptops. Desktops and embedded PC’s sometimes leave you with little choice but to repair in place. So hard drives , video cards, power supplies and other items all get handled in house. There are a number of reasons for this but one simple one is that downtime isn’t acceptable. Then you have the issue of security and letting strangers into your systems. Another issue is the fact that a third party would have no idea as to what is going on with the hardware. The corporate world is funny though because another division or installation might have a totally different policy. In any event you can’t really say that PC’s aren’t repaired. They are often repaired in house to some extent or another. By the way not one Apple product exists in these sorts of installations, Apple simply doesn’t supply the required hardware.
...to add and qualify I liken some wear components more like tires, wheels, shocks and springs. Optimized at the design stage, performance may be best with OEM to start. Of course there is wear, and different tires for different driving conditions (think HD/SSD), and In time there may be better performing options or sizes invented and available. Might Apple's approach compare to welded on wheels, shocks and springs ?
....
One problem with the repairability crowd is the seeming desire to stop the advance of technology. It is almost like they expect Apple to return to the days of TTL technology. What they don’t seem to understand is that most of the “electronics” in Apples devices is now contained in one chip or module. Linking that module to a few soldered in components makes for a very reliable piece of kit.
I don't see how soldering RAM & SSDs to the mother board advances technology. Neither do I see how making them replaceable stops or even hinders the advance of technology. These major components, along with the keyboard, are not contained in a chip or a module.
Haha what?
HaHa What?
I'm telling you what reality is now. You don't have a big couple slots for memory modules like we had (which were literally a failure point for me in previous MBPs) or a SATA drive taking up 2.5" of space. Yes, we could have M.2 storage or similar but that's also another connection point that's fallible. You don't have big solder joints that break when jostled like you described, that's ancient shit right there. You're living in the past, maaaaaan. I'd be totally fine with storage sticks like in the Mac Pro if it worked in laptops. Not sure we have similar options in RAM. I'm okay with where it is because that does make the most sense for what we have. That's reality. If they can improve on that in the future, then great.
While a highly portable but non-upgradeable & non-repairable $2K+ machine is appealing to many (particularly professionals using it for business purposes), it is not for me and not for most people. It is a niche product. But, there's nothing wrong with niche products -- we need them to fill the niche's.
I don’t understand why you’re trying to convince everyone that most consumers fix their own computers. That’s not now, nor has ever been, the case. It doesn’t matter what the price point is, people take their stuff into Apple to fix when it breaks. Millions and millions of them. It’s literally the opposite of a niche product
LOL... Nice spin on what actually said. Do you work at FauxNews?
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Is this machine non repairable, or not able to be repaired by the average home enthusiast? I am confused by this? Surely Apple wouldn't simply replace the machine if it needed repair? Like say an Apple Care scenario... you take it in for a failure and instead of repairing it they replace the whole machine?
If an SSD or RAM fails (for instance), I seriously doubt the Genius bar would unsolder them and resolder a replacement back onto the machine (although that is physically possible). The same for the keyboard: I doubt they would drill out the rivets holding it in place and re-rivet a new one on. Instead, you would likely just get a replacement machine. Of, if your machine was 366 days old, you would be told to buy a replacement machine. To me, that makes them very expensive disposable items.
Wrong. First instance they’d replace the logic board. Second instance they’d replace the top case which includes the keyboard and battery and trackpad. Third instance you’d pay for either part and labor if you didn’t have AppleCare and the repair wasn’t covered for some reason (sometimes it is) or you’d pay the flat repair rate for your machine ideally which is often far less than the cost of the aforementioned repair costs (around $300-something for a MacBook historically).
That’s been the case for many years, you should maybe stop talking about things you don’t understand.
So, if an SSD goes bad, you would replace the mother board, CPU, GPU memory and controllers? Isn't that a bit like replacng the engine of a car if the battery dies?
On day 366 that so called "repair" (actually replacing most of the machine) would cost nearly as much as a new machine. Your example supports why they listed it as a 1 out of 10 on repairability.-- meaning that it isn't repairable.
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on.
It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)
That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers.
I’m not sure where this garbage about consummers never performing repairs on their cars comes from. It simply doesn’t reflect reality, in fact if you have never addressed a problem on your automobile I’d say you are in the minority. Even Walmart’s dedicate considerable space to high volume maintenance parts. Within a short distance of my home there are at least 3 parts stores selling largely to the owners of automobiles. Frankly service items on a laptop, like the battery, should not be any more difficult to replace than a battery on a car. That means a few common tools and a standardized component.
By the way I have to agree that non upgradeable doesn’t mean disposable. This though drags the discussion off course because being reasonable repairable has nothing to do with being upgradeable. What makes a MBP disposable is when repairs to common items expected to fail costs more than the value of the machine. I’d go so far as to say that Apples repair policies are designed to drive purchases of new equipment. Let’s be honest here, for old Apple hardware you need to go third party for repairs and that only happens if They can get the parts. Apple basically doesn’t want to know you even if the hardware is otherwise serving a need.
You seem to not understand brakes. Have them go bad and you will understand that they are an item that can require repair. As for PC’s, at work the IT department does a surprising amount of repairs to laptops, desktops and even stuff in the server room. For a reasonably sized organization it is far more cost effective to repair in house. So things like batteries, keyboards and so forth get replaced in laptops. Desktops and embedded PC’s sometimes leave you with little choice but to repair in place. So hard drives , video cards, power supplies and other items all get handled in house. There are a number of reasons for this but one simple one is that downtime isn’t acceptable. Then you have the issue of security and letting strangers into your systems. Another issue is the fact that a third party would have no idea as to what is going on with the hardware. The corporate world is funny though because another division or installation might have a totally different policy. In any event you can’t really say that PC’s aren’t repaired. They are often repaired in house to some extent or another. By the way not one Apple product exists in these sorts of installations, Apple simply doesn’t supply the required hardware.
...to add and qualify I liken some wear components more like tires, wheels, shocks and springs. Optimized at the design stage, performance may be best with OEM to start. Of course there is wear, and different tires for different driving conditions (think HD/SSD), and In time there may be better performing options or sizes invented and available. Might Apple's approach compare to welded on wheels, shocks and springs ?
....
One problem with the repairability crowd is the seeming desire to stop the advance of technology. It is almost like they expect Apple to return to the days of TTL technology. What they don’t seem to understand is that most of the “electronics” in Apples devices is now contained in one chip or module. Linking that module to a few soldered in components makes for a very reliable piece of kit.
I don't see how soldering RAM & SSDs to the mother board advances technology. Neither do I see how making them replaceable stops or even hinders the advance of technology. These major components, along with the keyboard, are not contained in a chip or a module.
Haha what?
HaHa What?
I'm telling you what reality is now. You don't have a big couple slots for memory modules like we had (which were literally a failure point for me in previous MBPs) or a SATA drive taking up 2.5" of space. Yes, we could have M.2 storage or similar but that's also another connection point that's fallible. You don't have big solder joints that break when jostled like you described, that's ancient shit right there. You're living in the past, maaaaaan. I'd be totally fine with storage sticks like in the Mac Pro if it worked in laptops. Not sure we have similar options in RAM. I'm okay with where it is because that does make the most sense for what we have. That's reality. If they can improve on that in the future, then great.
Apple made a compromise. Direct soldered components don’t advance technology per se, but they are more compact and more reliable from the standpoint of connections. The drawback is they are virtually impossible to replace, so repairs become orders of magnitude more expensive and upgrades are impossible from a practical standpoint. We all agree that that is the reality now. What we don’t agree on is what the reality should be.
While a highly portable but non-upgradeable & non-repairable $2K+ machine is appealing to many (particularly professionals using it for business purposes), it is not for me and not for most people. It is a niche product. But, there's nothing wrong with niche products -- we need them to fill the niche's.
I don’t understand why you’re trying to convince everyone that most consumers fix their own computers. That’s not now, nor has ever been, the case. It doesn’t matter what the price point is, people take their stuff into Apple to fix when it breaks. Millions and millions of them. It’s literally the opposite of a niche product
LOL... Nice spin on what actually said. Do you work at FauxNews?
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Is this machine non repairable, or not able to be repaired by the average home enthusiast? I am confused by this? Surely Apple wouldn't simply replace the machine if it needed repair? Like say an Apple Care scenario... you take it in for a failure and instead of repairing it they replace the whole machine?
If an SSD or RAM fails (for instance), I seriously doubt the Genius bar would unsolder them and resolder a replacement back onto the machine (although that is physically possible). The same for the keyboard: I doubt they would drill out the rivets holding it in place and re-rivet a new one on. Instead, you would likely just get a replacement machine. Of, if your machine was 366 days old, you would be told to buy a replacement machine. To me, that makes them very expensive disposable items.
Wrong. First instance they’d replace the logic board. Second instance they’d replace the top case which includes the keyboard and battery and trackpad. Third instance you’d pay for either part and labor if you didn’t have AppleCare and the repair wasn’t covered for some reason (sometimes it is) or you’d pay the flat repair rate for your machine ideally which is often far less than the cost of the aforementioned repair costs (around $300-something for a MacBook historically).
That’s been the case for many years, you should maybe stop talking about things you don’t understand.
So, if an SSD goes bad, you would replace the mother board, CPU, GPU memory and controllers? Isn't that a bit like replacng the engine of a car if the battery dies?
On day 366 that so called "repair" (actually replacing most of the machine) would cost nearly as much as a new machine. Your example supports why they listed it as a 1 out of 10 on repairability.-- meaning that it isn't repairable.
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on.
It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)
That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers.
I’m not sure where this garbage about consummers never performing repairs on their cars comes from. It simply doesn’t reflect reality, in fact if you have never addressed a problem on your automobile I’d say you are in the minority. Even Walmart’s dedicate considerable space to high volume maintenance parts. Within a short distance of my home there are at least 3 parts stores selling largely to the owners of automobiles. Frankly service items on a laptop, like the battery, should not be any more difficult to replace than a battery on a car. That means a few common tools and a standardized component.
By the way I have to agree that non upgradeable doesn’t mean disposable. This though drags the discussion off course because being reasonable repairable has nothing to do with being upgradeable. What makes a MBP disposable is when repairs to common items expected to fail costs more than the value of the machine. I’d go so far as to say that Apples repair policies are designed to drive purchases of new equipment. Let’s be honest here, for old Apple hardware you need to go third party for repairs and that only happens if They can get the parts. Apple basically doesn’t want to know you even if the hardware is otherwise serving a need.
You seem to not understand brakes. Have them go bad and you will understand that they are an item that can require repair. As for PC’s, at work the IT department does a surprising amount of repairs to laptops, desktops and even stuff in the server room. For a reasonably sized organization it is far more cost effective to repair in house. So things like batteries, keyboards and so forth get replaced in laptops. Desktops and embedded PC’s sometimes leave you with little choice but to repair in place. So hard drives , video cards, power supplies and other items all get handled in house. There are a number of reasons for this but one simple one is that downtime isn’t acceptable. Then you have the issue of security and letting strangers into your systems. Another issue is the fact that a third party would have no idea as to what is going on with the hardware. The corporate world is funny though because another division or installation might have a totally different policy. In any event you can’t really say that PC’s aren’t repaired. They are often repaired in house to some extent or another. By the way not one Apple product exists in these sorts of installations, Apple simply doesn’t supply the required hardware.
...to add and qualify I liken some wear components more like tires, wheels, shocks and springs. Optimized at the design stage, performance may be best with OEM to start. Of course there is wear, and different tires for different driving conditions (think HD/SSD), and In time there may be better performing options or sizes invented and available. Might Apple's approach compare to welded on wheels, shocks and springs ?
....
One problem with the repairability crowd is the seeming desire to stop the advance of technology. It is almost like they expect Apple to return to the days of TTL technology. What they don’t seem to understand is that most of the “electronics” in Apples devices is now contained in one chip or module. Linking that module to a few soldered in components makes for a very reliable piece of kit.
I don't see how soldering RAM & SSDs to the mother board advances technology. Neither do I see how making them replaceable stops or even hinders the advance of technology. These major components, along with the keyboard, are not contained in a chip or a module.
Haha what?
HaHa What?
I'm telling you what reality is now. You don't have a big couple slots for memory modules like we had (which were literally a failure point for me in previous MBPs) or a SATA drive taking up 2.5" of space. Yes, we could have M.2 storage or similar but that's also another connection point that's fallible. You don't have big solder joints that break when jostled like you described, that's ancient shit right there. You're living in the past, maaaaaan. I'd be totally fine with storage sticks like in the Mac Pro if it worked in laptops. Not sure we have similar options in RAM. I'm okay with where it is because that does make the most sense for what we have. That's reality. If they can improve on that in the future, then great.
Apple made a compromise. Direct soldered components don’t advance technology per se, but they are more compact and more reliable from the standpoint of connections. The drawback is they are virtually impossible to replace, so repairs become orders of magnitude more expensive and upgrades are impossible from a practical standpoint. We all agree that that is the reality now. What we don’t agree on is what the reality should be.
That's fair. Like I said, It'd be great if they brought the storage tech for the Mac Pro down to this line. I'd love that.
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on.
It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)
That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers.
I’m not sure where this garbage about consummers never performing repairs on their cars comes from. It simply doesn’t reflect reality, in fact if you have never addressed a problem on your automobile I’d say you are in the minority. Even Walmart’s dedicate considerable space to high volume maintenance parts. Within a short distance of my home there are at least 3 parts stores selling largely to the owners of automobiles. Frankly service items on a laptop, like the battery, should not be any more difficult to replace than a battery on a car. That means a few common tools and a standardized component.
By the way I have to agree that non upgradeable doesn’t mean disposable. This though drags the discussion off course because being reasonable repairable has nothing to do with being upgradeable. What makes a MBP disposable is when repairs to common items expected to fail costs more than the value of the machine. I’d go so far as to say that Apples repair policies are designed to drive purchases of new equipment. Let’s be honest here, for old Apple hardware you need to go third party for repairs and that only happens if They can get the parts. Apple basically doesn’t want to know you even if the hardware is otherwise serving a need.
You seem to not understand brakes. Have them go bad and you will understand that they are an item that can require repair. As for PC’s, at work the IT department does a surprising amount of repairs to laptops, desktops and even stuff in the server room. For a reasonably sized organization it is far more cost effective to repair in house. So things like batteries, keyboards and so forth get replaced in laptops. Desktops and embedded PC’s sometimes leave you with little choice but to repair in place. So hard drives , video cards, power supplies and other items all get handled in house. There are a number of reasons for this but one simple one is that downtime isn’t acceptable. Then you have the issue of security and letting strangers into your systems. Another issue is the fact that a third party would have no idea as to what is going on with the hardware. The corporate world is funny though because another division or installation might have a totally different policy. In any event you can’t really say that PC’s aren’t repaired. They are often repaired in house to some extent or another. By the way not one Apple product exists in these sorts of installations, Apple simply doesn’t supply the required hardware.
...to add and qualify I liken some wear components more like tires, wheels, shocks and springs. Optimized at the design stage, performance may be best with OEM to start. Of course there is wear, and different tires for different driving conditions (think HD/SSD), and In time there may be better performing options or sizes invented and available. Might Apple's approach compare to welded on wheels, shocks and springs ?
....
One problem with the repairability crowd is the seeming desire to stop the advance of technology. It is almost like they expect Apple to return to the days of TTL technology. What they don’t seem to understand is that most of the “electronics” in Apples devices is now contained in one chip or module. Linking that module to a few soldered in components makes for a very reliable piece of kit.
I don't see how soldering RAM & SSDs to the mother board advances technology. Neither do I see how making them replaceable stops or even hinders the advance of technology. These major components, along with the keyboard, are not contained in a chip or a module.
Haha what?
Obviously memory is chips; I think he meant that they are (or can be) discrete components, not part of the processor. In that sense, he's correct. As your picture illustrates, Apple clearly designed the logic board to minimize the footprint, but there is no technical reason the memory and SSD couldn't be discrete components like they are in the Mac Pro
This one does, more or less. I'm all in favor of a storage module like the Mac Pro has, but let's be real — they're maximizing the shit out of the space inside these things:
While it appears that they are going beyond merely maximizing space (how much more room would it take to fasten the keyboard with screws vs rivets?), I agree that that is primarily what they have been and are doing: an obsessive quest for thin and light. And, that is a good thing because, other things being equal, thin and light is better than fat & thick. But, other things are not equal, there are tradeoffs.
I'm sitting here with a 10 year old Thinkpad and a 5 year old MacBook -- I use the Thinkpad probably 80-90% of the time simply because its more functional, with better specs & features than the MacBook. But, I use both primarily here at home (I'm retired). If I had to lug it around to work or school in a briefcase or backpack the ratio would likely reverse in favor of the MacBook.
Each design philosophy has is advantages and disadvantages. Lenovo makes both the thin and light variety as well as the fat & think variety that are highly reliable, functional, repairable and upgradeable. I wish that Apple would do the same and offer its loyal customers a choice. And, since MacBooks are built primarily with off-the-shelf components available to anybody, I see no technical reason why they can't. It seems more like "won't". I think that is short sighted on their part because it limits their market appeal -- particularly when it comes to business class machines.
I think that is short sighted on their part because it limits their market appeal -- particularly when it comes to business class machines.
Yeah, that must be why I see so few MacBooks out there. 😂
the question is whether they would sell more if they were upgradable. I don't think it would make a huge difference - there is a subset of people (myself included) that would like devices that allow you to upgrade the memory & hard drive and/or more easily replace the keyboard in case of failure, but I know I'm in the minority. The vast majority of consumers these days don't think about stuff like that until later on when it becomes an issue.
I think that is short sighted on their part because it limits their market appeal -- particularly when it comes to business class machines.
Yeah, that must be why I see so few MacBooks out there. 😂
the question is whether they would sell more if they were upgradable. I don't think it would make a huge difference - there is a subset of people (myself included) that would like devices that allow you to upgrade the memory & hard drive and/or more easily replace the keyboard in case of failure, but I know I'm in the minority. The vast majority of consumers these days don't think about stuff like that until later on when it becomes an issue.
The vast majority of consumers have never thought about stuff like that.
I think that is short sighted on their part because it limits their market appeal -- particularly when it comes to business class machines.
Yeah, that must be why I see so few MacBooks out there. 😂
the question is whether they would sell more if they were upgradable. I don't think it would make a huge difference - there is a subset of people (myself included) that would like devices that allow you to upgrade the memory & hard drive and/or more easily replace the keyboard in case of failure, but I know I'm in the minority. The vast majority of consumers these days don't think about stuff like that until later on when it becomes an issue.
The vast majority of consumers have never thought about stuff like that.
... until their puny little 128Gb SSD fills up and the Apple Store tells them they have to buy a whole new machine. (But, at least the 16" is coming with a respectable 500Gb.)
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on.
It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)
That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers.
That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy - if something is made incredibly difficult to repair, you won't repair it.
I have to agree with wizard and bobolicious - components which get a lot of wear and/or are likely to need replacing, should be made so it's at least easier to do so. Take the keyboard - it's a mechanical component that's exposed to the environment and gets a ton of use. Even if the new design is more reliable as hoped it's still going to be one of the higher failure items. Is there any real reason they couldn't have fastened it with screws?
Apple also touts its environmental record, but one of the best ways to reduce environmental costs of products is maximize their life span. A design that prevents repairs goes against that. A modular design would be really nice, but modularity costs space, so that's a compromise that gets made in the name of size, but they've gotten to the point that they might as well just encase the entire thing in epoxy.
Concentrate real hard folks....MBPs are serviceable. They don’t need to be upgradable, or user-serviceable, for this to be true. I’ve had mine serviced before...sacre bleu!
Me too, and was shocked to the point of almost crapping myself at the cost!
Replacing the keyboard in my 2016 15” was almost $500! For a KEYBOARD.
It may be possible to repair a MacBook Pro but it sure ain’t practical.
Did you ask for a refund after they implemented the keyboard replacement program? You can probably get your money back.
I didn’t have to pay but the invoice still shows what it would cost me today now that my AppleCare coverage has expired. The repair involves replacing the entire layer of the computer, including case component, batteries, keyboard, and trackpad. That adds up to a lotta dough.
A bad RAM chip will cost $815 (replace logic board).
The design of these boxes makes repairs really, really expensive.
For all the repairs that were not covered in full in the last decade or more, I think the few that weren't were all covered under the flat repair program which was like $310 for a MBP. In a couple cases, that included other items I didn't even request to be repaired. One repair got me a new logic board, new top case, new display, new hard drive, new RAM (even tho I tossed that and put my old RAM in). $310! That would've been wayyyyy more on a component-based repair. Seriously, always try to get the flat rate whenever possible and mention everything you know might be flawed. It gets shipped off, everything possible fixed, and back in a couple days. It's amazing. BEST SERVICE EVER.
That would be awesome, but I don't know where you'll find a $310 repair for a MBP now. Mine cost substantially more.
$519 Top case (had to replace the entire assembly just for a failed keyboard).
$973 Logic board
$782 Display assembly
$109 flat rate labour. That amount applies whether they replace one component or several. On the occasion described above it was $109 for multiple items. The next time the same $109 labour rate was applied for replacing a single component. So, $109 every time they service the machine, on top of the flat-rate component cost(s).
There were also costs for a couple IO boards and a heatsink, bringing the total bill to CAD$2445.00.
All those prices are in Canadian dollars, so three-quarters of those amounts in US dollars.
In my opinion that's freakin' insane and demonstrates a serious downside to Apple's current assembly methods.
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on.
It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)
That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers.
That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy - if something is made incredibly difficult to repair, you won't repair it.
I have to agree with wizard and bobolicious - components which get a lot of wear and/or are likely to need replacing, should be made so it's at least easier to do so. Take the keyboard - it's a mechanical component that's exposed to the environment and gets a ton of use. Even if the new design is more reliable as hoped it's still going to be one of the higher failure items. Is there any real reason they couldn't have fastened it with screws?
Apple also touts its environmental record, but one of the best ways to reduce environmental costs of products is maximize their life span. A design that prevents repairs goes against that. A modular design would be really nice, but modularity costs space, so that's a compromise that gets made in the name of size, but they've gotten to the point that they might as well just encase the entire thing in epoxy.
Concentrate real hard folks....MBPs are serviceable. They don’t need to be upgradable, or user-serviceable, for this to be true. I’ve had mine serviced before...sacre bleu!
Me too, and was shocked to the point of almost crapping myself at the cost!
Replacing the keyboard in my 2016 15” was almost $500! For a KEYBOARD.
It may be possible to repair a MacBook Pro but it sure ain’t practical.
Did you ask for a refund after they implemented the keyboard replacement program? You can probably get your money back.
I didn’t have to pay but the invoice still shows what it would cost me today now that my AppleCare coverage has expired. The repair involves replacing the entire layer of the computer, including case component, batteries, keyboard, and trackpad. That adds up to a lotta dough.
A bad RAM chip will cost $815 (replace logic board).
The design of these boxes makes repairs really, really expensive.
For all the repairs that were not covered in full in the last decade or more, I think the few that weren't were all covered under the flat repair program which was like $310 for a MBP. In a couple cases, that included other items I didn't even request to be repaired. One repair got me a new logic board, new top case, new display, new hard drive, new RAM (even tho I tossed that and put my old RAM in). $310! That would've been wayyyyy more on a component-based repair. Seriously, always try to get the flat rate whenever possible and mention everything you know might be flawed. It gets shipped off, everything possible fixed, and back in a couple days. It's amazing. BEST SERVICE EVER.
That would be awesome, but I don't know where you'll find a $310 repair for a MBP now. Mine cost substantially more.
$519 Top case (had to replace the entire assembly just for a failed keyboard).
$973 Logic board
$782 Display assembly
$109 flat rate labour. That amount applies whether they replace one component or several. On the occasion described above it was $109 for multiple items. The next time the same $109 labour rate was applied for replacing a single component. So, $109 every time they service the machine, on top of the flat-rate component cost(s).
There were also costs for a couple IO boards and a heatsink, bringing the total bill to CAD$2445.00.
All those prices are in Canadian dollars, so three-quarters of those amounts in US dollars.
In my opinion that's freakin' insane and demonstrates a serious downside to Apple's current assembly methods.
Well, the $310 was for the 2011 MBP I had repaired several times. I know it was a bit more for newer models, but not a ton more. Last couple repairs were covered by the dGPU thing with the 2011s and they fixed other stuff while in there (replaced top case, display, so forth). So I don't know for sure if they still have a flat rate repair, but to be clear this is the price that you'd pay if they mailed your Mac off to Texas or wherever the repair depots are to be fixed, and mailed back a day or two later. Maybe they don't do that in Canada. But, it was the way to go if you could get them to do it. Significantly cheaper than even a logic board and they'd fix your laundry list of items.d
Comments
I'm telling you what reality is now. You don't have a big couple slots for memory modules like we had (which were literally a failure point for me in previous MBPs) or a SATA drive taking up 2.5" of space. Yes, we could have M.2 storage or similar but that's also another connection point that's fallible. You don't have big solder joints that break when jostled like you described, that's ancient shit right there. You're living in the past, maaaaaan. I'd be totally fine with storage sticks like in the Mac Pro if it worked in laptops. Not sure we have similar options in RAM. I'm okay with where it is because that does make the most sense for what we have. That's reality. If they can improve on that in the future, then great.
I reported three faults:
- Bad butterfly keyboard
- display discolouration
- loose USB-C connector
$519 Top case (had to replace the entire assembly just for a failed keyboard).
$973 Logic board
$782 Display assembly
$109 flat rate labour. That amount applies whether they replace one component or several. On the occasion described above it was $109 for multiple items. The next time the same $109 labour rate was applied for replacing a single component. So, $109 every time they service the machine, on top of the flat-rate component cost(s).
There were also costs for a couple IO boards and a heatsink, bringing the total bill to CAD$2445.00.
All those prices are in Canadian dollars, so three-quarters of those amounts in US dollars.
In my opinion that's freakin' insane and demonstrates a serious downside to Apple's current assembly methods.