we all contribute to the creation of ideas; and even actual implemented methods of construction, manufacture, delivery or presentation.
it is the group effort of humanity. not company x with enough $$$$ to patent every navel gazing.
Apple is a patent troll, every week they patent shit they never make.
patenting is being a troll, to collect a toll.
get off the horse of “my selective company does no wrong”
“...we all contribute...”.
So says someone who has never had a patentable idea and knows nothing about patents.
The patent systems of entire developed world essentially work the same way, so all those nations disagree with you. Patents have value to society and are entitled to limited protection. They all agree, even socialist countries.
How did you contribute to the inventions we invented in our lab, sweated over, and spent a small fortune of our own money on? I’m pretty sure, since I was there every day, the answer is you didn’t, not even in your wildest socialist dreamscaping.
I’m sorry your collective education has failed you in that regard.
For once, it would be nice to see Apple try and not be the bully in the school yard and actually act responsibly and ethically for a change.
These patents are used by all the phone providers. They are ground breaking patents. They have all signed licenses. The only one fighting was Apple.
Now they have lost twice in court, to two jury's, and they still want to appeal? I mean, come on!
The technology is not Apples, its been proven. Pay the damages of $85 million for the i phones 6 & 7 and then pony up for what you owe for iphones 8,9,10 and 11 too. (Yup, they now owe for the phones they have created since the case was initially filed, that they admitted ALSO infringed.)
Then sign a license to 2023 to when the patents expire.
And before anyone tries and spins the patent troll narrative, these patents were invented by the two guys who built the company Wilan, in the first place. They were never acquired from someone else.
Just because you can tie things up endlessly in court doesn't mean you should. In fact its shameful and cowardly and arrogant.
Apple has hundreds of billions of dollars stored off shore -- avoiding taxes -- and they still won't pony up for the technology they have used to build that mountain of cash.
Time to do what is right. Pay for what you are responsible for.
For a change.
Apple is greedy and a known bully. They’ll pay any fine twice over in legal/court/attorney fees than pay the actual fine.
For once, it would be nice to see Apple try and not be the bully in the school yard and actually act responsibly and ethically for a change.
These patents are used by all the phone providers. They are ground breaking patents. They have all signed licenses. The only one fighting was Apple.
Now they have lost twice in court, to two jury's, and they still want to appeal? I mean, come on!
The technology is not Apples, its been proven. Pay the damages of $85 million for the i phones 6 & 7 and then pony up for what you owe for iphones 8,9,10 and 11 too. (Yup, they now owe for the phones they have created since the case was initially filed, that they admitted ALSO infringed.)
Then sign a license to 2023 to when the patents expire.
And before anyone tries and spins the patent troll narrative, these patents were invented by the two guys who built the company Wilan, in the first place. They were never acquired from someone else.
Just because you can tie things up endlessly in court doesn't mean you should. In fact its shameful and cowardly and arrogant.
Apple has hundreds of billions of dollars stored off shore -- avoiding taxes -- and they still won't pony up for the technology they have used to build that mountain of cash.
Time to do what is right. Pay for what you are responsible for.
For a change.
You literally just joined AppleInsider yesterday just so you can make all these posts defending WiLAN. I'm pretty sure you are an employee or have something to financially gain
For once, it would be nice to see Apple try and not be the bully in the school yard and actually act responsibly and ethically for a change.
These patents are used by all the phone providers. They are ground breaking patents. They have all signed licenses. The only one fighting was Apple.
Now they have lost twice in court, to two jury's, and they still want to appeal? I mean, come on!
The technology is not Apples, its been proven. Pay the damages of $85 million for the i phones 6 & 7 and then pony up for what you owe for iphones 8,9,10 and 11 too. (Yup, they now owe for the phones they have created since the case was initially filed, that they admitted ALSO infringed.)
Then sign a license to 2023 to when the patents expire.
And before anyone tries and spins the patent troll narrative, these patents were invented by the two guys who built the company Wilan, in the first place. They were never acquired from someone else.
Just because you can tie things up endlessly in court doesn't mean you should. In fact its shameful and cowardly and arrogant.
Apple has hundreds of billions of dollars stored off shore -- avoiding taxes -- and they still won't pony up for the technology they have used to build that mountain of cash.
Time to do what is right. Pay for what you are responsible for.
For a change.
WoW, you must know a lot about this case, you sounds like your familiar w/ every details...what do you do for a living??
For once, it would be nice to see Apple try and not be the bully in the school yard and actually act responsibly and ethically for a change.
These patents are used by all the phone providers. They are ground breaking patents. They have all signed licenses. The only one fighting was Apple.
Now they have lost twice in court, to two jury's, and they still want to appeal? I mean, come on!
The technology is not Apples, its been proven. Pay the damages of $85 million for the i phones 6 & 7 and then pony up for what you owe for iphones 8,9,10 and 11 too. (Yup, they now owe for the phones they have created since the case was initially filed, that they admitted ALSO infringed.)
Then sign a license to 2023 to when the patents expire.
And before anyone tries and spins the patent troll narrative, these patents were invented by the two guys who built the company Wilan, in the first place. They were never acquired from someone else.
Just because you can tie things up endlessly in court doesn't mean you should. In fact its shameful and cowardly and arrogant.
Apple has hundreds of billions of dollars stored off shore -- avoiding taxes -- and they still won't pony up for the technology they have used to build that mountain of cash.
Time to do what is right. Pay for what you are responsible for.
For a change.
That’s just, like, your opinion, man.
The patents sound like typical BS software patents — patents on ideas, rather than implementation, which is written code, which is protected by copyright. The notion that companies can patent abstract ideas in software is unsound to begin with, and will result in never-ending litigation. Ideas are free, written code is not. Seriously doubt Apple lifted their code.
So what about all the software patients and other B.S. patients Apple has? Seriously, you always defend Apple like they do no wrong ever but when Apple does the EXACT SAME THING other companies do, well Apple is right then as well. It can’t be both ways.
For once, it would be nice to see Apple try and not be the bully in the school yard and actually act responsibly and ethically for a change.
These patents are used by all the phone providers. They are ground breaking patents. They have all signed licenses. The only one fighting was Apple.
Now they have lost twice in court, to two jury's, and they still want to appeal? I mean, come on!
The technology is not Apples, its been proven. Pay the damages of $85 million for the i phones 6 & 7 and then pony up for what you owe for iphones 8,9,10 and 11 too. (Yup, they now owe for the phones they have created since the case was initially filed, that they admitted ALSO infringed.)
Then sign a license to 2023 to when the patents expire.
And before anyone tries and spins the patent troll narrative, these patents were invented by the two guys who built the company Wilan, in the first place. They were never acquired from someone else.
Just because you can tie things up endlessly in court doesn't mean you should. In fact its shameful and cowardly and arrogant.
Apple has hundreds of billions of dollars stored off shore -- avoiding taxes -- and they still won't pony up for the technology they have used to build that mountain of cash.
Time to do what is right. Pay for what you are responsible for.
For a change.
That’s just, like, your opinion, man.
The patents sound like typical BS software patents — patents on ideas, rather than implementation, which is written code, which is protected by copyright. The notion that companies can patent abstract ideas in software is unsound to begin with, and will result in never-ending litigation. Ideas are free, written code is not. Seriously doubt Apple lifted their code.
that is just your opinion man.
the patent system needs abolishing completely.
we all contribute to the creation of ideas; and even actual implemented methods of construction, manufacture, delivery or presentation.
it is the group effort of humanity. not company x with enough $$$$ to patent every navel gazing.
Apple is a patent troll, every week they patent shit they never make.
patenting is being a troll, to collect a toll.
get off the horse of “my selective company does no wrong”
You really believe that if Apple creates a new paradigm for mobile computing that a company from South Korea or China should be able to come in and steal all their IP with years of R&D to make near duplicate knockoffs of what they perfected and figured out what worked in a market?
If not, then I have no idea what you could possibly mean by the extreme statement of "the patent system needs abolishing completely." Reform I get, but to remove any way in which an invention can be protected sounds absolutely bonkers. What motivation does one have to spend a lifetime and countless costs inventing if it can stolen without any recourse of recovery of one's efforts and brilliance? I'd think that would greatly hinder real industry achievements.
Or the other way, a company creates a new paradigm for mobile computing (which has happened and still does, and Apple is able to come in and steal the IP with years of RD.
Wait?!? What?!? Only all other companies in the world steal from Apple all the time but Apple NEVER ONCE HAS? Wow!!!
For once, it would be nice to see Apple try and not be the bully in the school yard and actually act responsibly and ethically for a change.
These patents are used by all the phone providers. They are ground breaking patents. They have all signed licenses. The only one fighting was Apple.
Now they have lost twice in court, to two jury's, and they still want to appeal? I mean, come on!
The technology is not Apples, its been proven. Pay the damages of $85 million for the i phones 6 & 7 and then pony up for what you owe for iphones 8,9,10 and 11 too. (Yup, they now owe for the phones they have created since the case was initially filed, that they admitted ALSO infringed.)
Then sign a license to 2023 to when the patents expire.
And before anyone tries and spins the patent troll narrative, these patents were invented by the two guys who built the company Wilan, in the first place. They were never acquired from someone else.
Just because you can tie things up endlessly in court doesn't mean you should. In fact its shameful and cowardly and arrogant.
Apple has hundreds of billions of dollars stored off shore -- avoiding taxes -- and they still won't pony up for the technology they have used to build that mountain of cash.
Time to do what is right. Pay for what you are responsible for.
For a change.
That’s just, like, your opinion, man.
The patents sound like typical BS software patents — patents on ideas, rather than implementation, which is written code, which is protected by copyright. The notion that companies can patent abstract ideas in software is unsound to begin with, and will result in never-ending litigation. Ideas are free, written code is not. Seriously doubt Apple lifted their code.
that is just your opinion man.
the patent system needs abolishing completely.
we all contribute to the creation of ideas; and even actual implemented methods of construction, manufacture, delivery or presentation.
it is the group effort of humanity. not company x with enough $$$$ to patent every navel gazing.
Apple is a patent troll, every week they patent shit they never make.
patenting is being a troll, to collect a toll.
get off the horse of “my selective company does no wrong”
You really believe that if Apple creates a new paradigm for mobile computing that a company from South Korea or China should be able to come in and steal all their IP with years of R&D to make near duplicate knockoffs of what they perfected and figured out what worked in a market?
If not, then I have no idea what you could possibly mean by the extreme statement of "the patent system needs abolishing completely." Reform I get, but to remove any way in which an invention can be protected sounds absolutely bonkers. What motivation does one have to spend a lifetime and countless costs inventing if it can stolen without any recourse of recovery of one's efforts and brilliance? I'd think that would greatly hinder real industry achievements.
Or the other way, a company creates a new paradigm for mobile computing (which has happened and still does, and Apple is able to come in and steal the IP with years of RD.
Wait?!? What?!? Only all other companies in the world steal from Apple all the time but Apple NEVER ONCE HAS? Wow!!!
Apple has clearly stolen. Even silly things like an artist's work that they used in an ad that they could've easily licensed. My question is still how anyone is benefited by the dissolution of any system that protects legitimate creators.
For once, it would be nice to see Apple try and not be the bully in the school yard and actually act responsibly and ethically for a change.
These patents are used by all the phone providers. They are ground breaking patents. They have all signed licenses. The only one fighting was Apple.
Now they have lost twice in court, to two jury's, and they still want to appeal? I mean, come on!
The technology is not Apples, its been proven. Pay the damages of $85 million for the i phones 6 & 7 and then pony up for what you owe for iphones 8,9,10 and 11 too. (Yup, they now owe for the phones they have created since the case was initially filed, that they admitted ALSO infringed.)
Then sign a license to 2023 to when the patents expire.
And before anyone tries and spins the patent troll narrative, these patents were invented by the two guys who built the company Wilan, in the first place. They were never acquired from someone else.
Just because you can tie things up endlessly in court doesn't mean you should. In fact its shameful and cowardly and arrogant.
Apple has hundreds of billions of dollars stored off shore -- avoiding taxes -- and they still won't pony up for the technology they have used to build that mountain of cash.
Time to do what is right. Pay for what you are responsible for.
For a change.
That’s just, like, your opinion, man.
The patents sound like typical BS software patents — patents on ideas, rather than implementation, which is written code, which is protected by copyright. The notion that companies can patent abstract ideas in software is unsound to begin with, and will result in never-ending litigation. Ideas are free, written code is not. Seriously doubt Apple lifted their code.
that is just your opinion man.
the patent system needs abolishing completely.
we all contribute to the creation of ideas; and even actual implemented methods of construction, manufacture, delivery or presentation.
it is the group effort of humanity. not company x with enough $$$$ to patent every navel gazing.
Apple is a patent troll, every week they patent shit they never make.
patenting is being a troll, to collect a toll.
get off the horse of “my selective company does no wrong”
You really believe that if Apple creates a new paradigm for mobile computing that a company from South Korea or China should be able to come in and steal all their IP with years of R&D to make near duplicate knockoffs of what they perfected and figured out what worked in a market?
If not, then I have no idea what you could possibly mean by the extreme statement of "the patent system needs abolishing completely." Reform I get, but to remove any way in which an invention can be protected sounds absolutely bonkers. What motivation does one have to spend a lifetime and countless costs inventing if it can stolen without any recourse of recovery of one's efforts and brilliance? I'd think that would greatly hinder real industry achievements.
Or the other way, a company creates a new paradigm for mobile computing (which has happened and still does, and Apple is able to come in and steal the IP with years of RD.
Wait?!? What?!? Only all other companies in the world steal from Apple all the time but Apple NEVER ONCE HAS? Wow!!!
Apple has clearly stolen. Even silly things like an artist's work that they used in an ad that they could've easily licensed. My question is still how anyone is benefited by the dissolution of any system that protects legitimate creators.
Well, I do agree with you and thanks for at least being reasonable with regards to Apples not perfect.
The $10 million was an offer by Apple to settle. A ridiculous offer that was rejected. That's the only reason it exists on the record. It was utter nonsense.
The only reason Apple rejected it even with that amount is because they have integrity. If they were not wrong in the first place, they wouldn't want to be wronged the second or third time. You got to fight if you were right.
Dant: so you're saying Apple should not use their full legal rights, given that they've stated (repeatedly) that they did NOT infringe these patents, and pursue the case through the full length of the court system?
If you're a lawyer commenting on this, you're a pretty bad one!
While it's possible that they just stole the patents are are willing to spend up to and possibly beyond many times the amount they've been ordered to pay to not admit this -- it would seem pretty unlikely to me.
What seems more likely is that given the various and wildly differing amounts awarded ($140M, $10M on appeal, then $85M) -- that to me sure looks like uneducated juries with no real idea of whether these patents are even valid let alone actually infringed are just figuring the one with deep pockets should pay the little guy a token amount (being aware, as they are, of how many billions Apple makes). Surely you'll admit that this is a factor in juried decisions when the juries are made up of non-technical people.
I bow to your opinion that the patents are still valid and non-obvious and important, but three trials later I think it is equally obvious that Apple doesn't believe it infringed the patents and is willing to spend the money to prove this and clear their name. Whether they are right about that or wrong about that, they have both the right and the ability to carry this all the way through the legal process, and I see zero harm in them exercising that right if they so choose.
Yours is a fairly unique take on this situation. Seems like you've taken a fair amount of liberties with your interpretation of Apple's position in this case. Afaict, Apple hasn't repeatedly stated they didn't infringe on the patents. Infringement was adjudicated in the first trial in 2018. Based on the article, Apple hasn't appealed the infringement verdict. The only thing they appealed was the award. $140M - Apple said nope. They calculated that incorrectly. We ain't payin' it. Court offers a $10M or go back to trial deal(for award amount only-not infringement) - WiLan said nope, going to trial. We ain't takin' 10. $85M is the new amount. As Appleinsider pointed out, they got significantly less (-$60M) than the $145M original verdict. But glass half full says they got helluva better deal by going back to trial (+75M) instead of taking the offer of $10M.
If Apple appeals as AI suggests, I think the only thing they can appeal is the award amount. Similar to their situation with VirnetX. IANAL but I think I have a fair understanding of the details in this article.
Apple has repeatedly argued that it didn't infringe the patents in question. Apple brought this case asking the court to declare that Apple hadn't infringed 5 (and later 6) WiLan patents and that those patents were invalid. WiLan made counterclaims of infringement and 2 of those patents made it to trial.
After the jury's decision Apple again asked for judgment as a matter of law on the infringement issue - IOW, it argued that it hadn't infringed. It wasn't granted that JMOL but it was given a new trial on damages.
Apple can still appeal the infringement finding; a judgment wasn't previously entered in this case. I'll be surprised if it doesn't appeal that finding, unless it's able to reach a settlement agreement (e.g. for a lower amount) with WiLan.
I'd note that WILan has brought other suits against Apple for infringement and Apple's mostly been successful defending itself against WiLan - both arguing that it didn't infringe and that the patents in question were invalid. In 2011, e.g., WiLan sued Apple and a number of others (to include HTC, Dell, and HP) alleging infringement. The other settled, but Apple continued to argue it hadn't infringed and that the patents in question were invalid. Apple eventually won both in the district court and the Federal Circuit.
Dant: so you're saying Apple should not use their full legal rights, given that they've stated (repeatedly) that they did NOT infringe these patents, and pursue the case through the full length of the court system?
If you're a lawyer commenting on this, you're a pretty bad one!
While it's possible that they just stole the patents are are willing to spend up to and possibly beyond many times the amount they've been ordered to pay to not admit this -- it would seem pretty unlikely to me.
What seems more likely is that given the various and wildly differing amounts awarded ($140M, $10M on appeal, then $85M) -- that to me sure looks like uneducated juries with no real idea of whether these patents are even valid let alone actually infringed are just figuring the one with deep pockets should pay the little guy a token amount (being aware, as they are, of how many billions Apple makes). Surely you'll admit that this is a factor in juried decisions when the juries are made up of non-technical people.
I bow to your opinion that the patents are still valid and non-obvious and important, but three trials later I think it is equally obvious that Apple doesn't believe it infringed the patents and is willing to spend the money to prove this and clear their name. Whether they are right about that or wrong about that, they have both the right and the ability to carry this all the way through the legal process, and I see zero harm in them exercising that right if they so choose.
Yours is a fairly unique take on this situation. Seems like you've taken a fair amount of liberties with your interpretation of Apple's position in this case. Afaict, Apple hasn't repeatedly stated they didn't infringe on the patents. Infringement was adjudicated in the first trial in 2018. Based on the article, Apple hasn't appealed the infringement verdict. The only thing they appealed was the award. $140M - Apple said nope. They calculated that incorrectly. We ain't payin' it. Court offers a $10M or go back to trial deal(for award amount only-not infringement) - WiLan said nope, going to trial. We ain't takin' 10. $85M is the new amount. As Appleinsider pointed out, they got significantly less (-$60M) than the $145M original verdict. But glass half full says they got helluva better deal by going back to trial (+75M) instead of taking the offer of $10M.
If Apple appeals as AI suggests, I think the only thing they can appeal is the award amount. Similar to their situation with VirnetX. IANAL but I think I have a fair understanding of the details in this article.
Apple has repeatedly argued that it didn't infringe the patents in question. Apple brought this case asking the court to declare that Apple hadn't infringed 5 (and later 6) WiLan patents and that those patents were invalid. WiLan made counterclaims of infringement and 2 of those patents made it to trial.
After the jury's decision Apple again asked for judgment as a matter of law on the infringement issue - IOW, it argued that it hadn't infringed. It wasn't granted that JMOL but it was given a new trial on damages.
They have pretty much run out of invalidity arguments, so yes the only realistic appeal route would be that they did not infringe to begin with. IMHO they won't ultimately succeed with that argument but it would at least delay things another year and who knows, maybe WiLan will give up and offer an agreeable settlement rather than invest more and wait longer.
Comments
“...we all contribute...”.
So says someone who has never had a patentable idea and knows nothing about patents.
The patent systems of entire developed world essentially work the same way, so all those nations disagree with you. Patents have value to society and are entitled to limited protection. They all agree, even socialist countries.
I’m sorry your collective education has failed you in that regard.
Try not to be so obvious at least
Or the other way, a company creates a new paradigm for mobile computing (which has happened and still does, and Apple is able to come in and steal the IP with years of RD.
After the jury's decision Apple again asked for judgment as a matter of law on the infringement issue - IOW, it argued that it hadn't infringed. It wasn't granted that JMOL but it was given a new trial on damages.
Apple can still appeal the infringement finding; a judgment wasn't previously entered in this case. I'll be surprised if it doesn't appeal that finding, unless it's able to reach a settlement agreement (e.g. for a lower amount) with WiLan.
I'd note that WILan has brought other suits against Apple for infringement and Apple's mostly been successful defending itself against WiLan - both arguing that it didn't infringe and that the patents in question were invalid. In 2011, e.g., WiLan sued Apple and a number of others (to include HTC, Dell, and HP) alleging infringement. The other settled, but Apple continued to argue it hadn't infringed and that the patents in question were invalid. Apple eventually won both in the district court and the Federal Circuit.