idunno.. the entire reason MS and apple made the agreement back in the 90's was cause apple was going under and needed money and MS wanted to be able to say to the government "were not a monopoly. look at apple."
QB]<hr></blockquote>
I just have to laugh at people that think MS invested in Apple to save them, Apple still had cash and was doing OK. If you do some real research you'll find that the purchase of non-controlling stock was part of an agreement to help settle a lot of lawsuits that Apple had against M$ at the time. There were other things done too, but the stock purchase was more or less part of an out of court settlement to get Apple to stop suing them.
Apple shouldn't become just a software maker, it would destroy them. They can't compete on price in the software market and that's why an unlimited client OS X Server is free with an Xserve. If they were to offer OS X Server for a Dell machine, M$ could undercut whatever price Apple offered.
They sell FCP for $1000, but what are the actual margins on that? It looks like they're making a hefty profit on it but I'm not so sure. A lot of people buy Mac hardware because it's great software at a great price. If you take out the profit Apple makes on the hardware someone buys to use FCP, Apple's profit probably drops.
[quote] The G5 comes later, from IBM, based on Power4 and designed to Apple's specifications. <hr></blockquote>
More then you know.
[quote] Apple knows what CPU they want to be using in 12-18 months. We can speculate from now until the next PowerMac, but if Apple doesn't know they better start filling out the Chapter 11 forms. I do hope they are changing to AMD(cause Mot sucks) and this is there way of breaking things to us gradually. <hr></blockquote>
Apple does know and they have more then 1 option. However, the AMD option is the last resort on that list.
I just have to laugh at people that think MS invested in Apple to save them, Apple still had cash and was doing OK. If you do some real research you'll find that the purchase of non-controlling stock was part of an agreement to help settle a lot of lawsuits that Apple had against M$ at the time. There were other things done too, but the stock purchase was more or less part of an out of court settlement to get Apple to stop suing them.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I seem to remember Apple stoping development of some software technologies around that time, such as OpenDoc and CyberDog as well. The investment was definatly a Quid pro Quo agreement.
Perhaps there is an alternate way of analysing the "options" comment. If a G5 debuts sometime between August and a year hence, 18 months might be a decent time to start thinking about filtering such a chip down into high-end iMacs(presuming no other consumer line appears in the meantime).
Having a high percentage of Mac users using OS X would certainly ease the hardware transition.
So perhaps the "options" are on the software side, rather than the hardware end of things. After all, everything currently points to Apple being more focused on software than hardware.
I seem to remember Apple stoping development of some software technologies around that time, such as OpenDoc and CyberDog as well. The investment was definatly a Quid pro Quo agreement.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Both of these technologies had no real value to Apple. Software written for them would have a totally different look and feel and capabilities to any other software. Apple could develop these technologies and then have to beg Adobe to port to them. Because they would look and feel so different it would be hard to "port". However both technologies did have some great features, such as building software out of lots of little objects, just like NeXT ware!! Steve, thank God, pushed for Apple to kill these technologies. NeXT was/is better, and programs do not have to be written in Cocoa to be able to wok on the Mac today. The big selling point of OpenDoc and the like was that I could write an object that would enhance same software that you had and I could sell it to you when you used it. OpenDoc would "see" that you were wanting to do something that was not possible with the software that you had and it would go to Apple or the internet and look for an object that would allow you to do what you wanted. You would be asked if you wanted to do whatever so badly that you would be willing to pay me $25 to add that functionality to your software. It was deemed as the MicroSoft killer, since Microsoft sold the whole widget not small pieces. It was a dumb desperate idea to think that Apple could actually kill the MicroSoft business model by forcing their developers to write programs that would be so different that they could not share code, or look, or feel, with 95% of the computer market.
I think that Steve meant Apple would be sticking with the PPC NOT moving to a different processor type. Apple just pushed through gcc3.1 which is full of Apple brand PPC tweaks and optimizations, this does not appear to be the efforts of a company that will be moving to a different processor any time soon. I would think that Apple could have other companies develop the PPC if they wished. IBM sell Apple a chip that may be packaged in a computer that would sell for $5,000 or less LOL if you think that chip would be a Power4or5or6, unless IBM is seeing a huge market there. One that would have to more than offset that fact that IBM sells these same workstations for around $50,000 and up $150,000, and these processors are the same ones that are in DeepBlue. I can see what Apple gets here, what does IBM get?? I do thank that IBM would develop the PPC further for Apple, but why would they dump Power4 stuff in there? I would guess that a multi-core PPC with on chip memory controller and DDR with RIO would be a great processor. The performance even at 1.2 to 1.5 GHz would put the PPC at or near the top.
<strong>Looks more and more likely that there will be no Power Mac G5.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well that depends on what you expect "G5" to mean. The term originally was short for "PowerPC Generation X". The PPC 601 came first and was therefore G1. The PPC 603/604 and their "e" versions came second and are therefore G2. The 740/750 came next and are therefore G3. The 7400 through 7455 (so far) came after and are therefore G4. By definition the next major architectural change will therefore be G5. It doesn't matter where it comes from, so long as it is a PowerPC.
Shouldn't we start seeing some of the fruit of the (IBM/Sony/Toshiba) Cell initiative in around the same timeframe as Jobs is talking about? Most of the respondents on this thread seem to be thinking about tomorrow's OSX penetration & today's CPUs.
Think more realistically, (i.e. tomorrow's OSX penetration & tomorrow's CPUs) and the situation looks somewhat different. Instead of the death-throws of Apple's hardware, this might signal Apple's transition to hardware that is faster than you'd dared hope.
Well that depends on what you expect "G5" to mean. The term originally was short for "PowerPC Generation X". The PPC 601 came first and was therefore G1. The PPC 603/604 and their "e" versions came second and are therefore G2. The 740/750 came next and are therefore G3. The 7400 through 7455 (so far) came after and are therefore G4. By definition the next major architectural change will therefore be G5. It doesn't matter where it comes from, so long as it is a PowerPC.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The Legend of the G5 ~ Of all the rampant ruminations on this topic over the past year and a half, the one I like the best is the rumor that Apple has the right to buy out Motorola's AIM interests, for $500 million as I recall. The franking rights to the next generation PPC (G5) would be Apple's and they could fab it out to the lowest bidder (Taiwan?), or make a strategic alliance with someone ,(IBM, AMD?) for it's manufacture,
The Power5 derivative from IBM sounds awfully good though too. One thing for sure; something wicked fast this way comes. That much is obvious considering the high end video production aspirations that Apple's software purchases point to. The problem as I see it is timing, and the time is long overdue. We may not see it next month and we may not even see it in San Francisco, but see it we will, and I think I can speak for all of us ~ BRING IT ON !
<strong>Shouldn't we start seeing some of the fruit of the (IBM/Sony/Toshiba) Cell initiative in around the same timeframe as Jobs is talking about? Most of the respondents on this thread seem to be thinking about tomorrow's OSX penetration & today's CPUs.
Think more realistically, (i.e. tomorrow's OSX penetration & tomorrow's CPUs) and the situation looks somewhat different. Instead of the death-throws of Apple's hardware, this might signal Apple's transition to hardware that is faster than you'd dared hope.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is virtually no information about the Cel project, and the fruits of that project will almost certainly appear first in Sony's PS3. There are other things going on in the backrooms and labs of the big companies, so if you have a little faith and a little patience you will be rewarded. Everybody these days seems to expect new stuff now now now now!!! Engineering, especially good engineering, takes time. Apple's not going away any time soon, and we'll see what Jobs has up his sleeve well before then.
<strong>The Legend of the G5 ~ Of all the rampant ruminations on this topic over the past year and a half, the one I like the best is the rumor that Apple has the right to buy out Motorola's AIM interests, for $500 million as I recall. The franking rights to the next generation PPC (G5) would be Apple's and they could fab it out to the lowest bidder (Taiwan?), or make a strategic alliance with someone ,(IBM, AMD?) for it's manufacture,
The Power5 derivative from IBM sounds awfully good though too. One thing for sure; something wicked fast this way comes. That much is obvious considering the high end video production aspirations that Apple's software purchases point to. The problem as I see it is timing, and the time is long overdue. We may not see it next month and we may not even see it in San Francisco, but see it we will, and I think I can speak for all of us ~ BRING IT ON !</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah timing is everything. It's like, right now Apple is in the back of the limo with the Prom queen trying to get it up, and the prom queen is kind, loving, understanding, and fairly patient. But if Apple doesn't get it up soon, then the Prom Queen will be more than happy to give her virginity to the meathead quarterback jock asshole who smacks her ass everyday and calls her his little bitch.
It's looking more and more like Apple's not going to get it up in time....even 12 throbbing inches doesn't cut it if she's already left for the jock's backseat and he's happily driving all 5 inches of wilt into her sweaty ass while she screams for more, more, more!!! Too late, she coulda' had more, but Apple was too slow to get their 12" up and throbbing.
Yeah timing is everything. It's like, right now Apple is in the back of the limo with the Prom queen trying to get it up, and the prom queen is kind, loving, understanding, and fairly patient. But if Apple doesn't get it up soon, then the Prom Queen will be more than happy to give her virginity to the meathead quarterback jock asshole who smacks her ass everyday and calls her his little bitch.
It's looking more and more like Apple's not going to get it up in time....even 12 throbbing inches doesn't cut it if she's already left for the jock's backseat and he's happily driving all 5 inches of wilt into her sweaty ass while she screams for more, more, more!!! Too late, she coulda' had more, but Apple was too slow to get their 12" up and throbbing.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well as they say sometimes 12" in his pants is better than 5" in your ***** as long as you know it will be yours when it finally gets erected. It all depends how horny you are. And Apple have stayed pretty decent all through high school so I think it would be wisest for Apple to wait just a little longer. Or perhaps try to hit on Professor Hal who is equally equipped and are known to deliver what is promised, even if it normally is to more expensive ladies.
....Well its better than car analogies... <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
uh, yeah, that's one way to put it...</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't waste my time listing what's wrong with you....so what's up with the insults? I don't even know who the fu[lk you are, but there you go with a post totally devoid of content save a an unprovoked put-down.
Get a life, buddy. Step outside, have a walk, enjoy the sun, turn off the computer for a few hours a day. It's hard at first, but it will get easier.
Now go and try to think of something to add to this thread worth reading. After you do, maybe you should post it. I'd like to read it, at least!
To paraphrase the popular Junkyard Dawyg (?), you just might want to keep it holstered when you talk about that oversized heatsink in the so-called prototype PowerMac. I don't recall seeing any photos of the unit's guts with the heat sink still attached. What if the heat sink exists merely to cover up or otherwise obscure the visibility of the motherboard and/or its contents from Apple's hardware partners who would be permitted to look inside the box? I imagine, a percentage of them would be reluctant to remove the heat sink to see what the emperor is wearing.
Also, there's been some credible discussion doubting the efficacy of such a large heat sink.
Well, just a thought. We don't want to appear like self-deluded people that only see what they want to see in the little clues that spill out [I'm not making any accusations to that effect, BTW.].
IBM sell Apple a chip that may be packaged in a computer that would sell for $5,000 or less LOL if you think that chip would be a Power4or5or6, unless IBM is seeing a huge market there.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think the point isn't so much we will see a POWER 4 come to the mac as much as something that may pay a passing resemblance.
Really currently if you want to talk about IBM's PPC processors only 2 spring quickly to mind to most people here; G3, POWER series.
Certainly most people don't wish to compare the G5 to current G3 tech even if IBM has a decent roadmap ahead for it.
The POWER series, however, shows what IBM can do when they set their mind to it. I agree it's a server chip, and won't be seen in a desktop computer as it currently stands. The POWER 5 will be more heavily aimed at workstations and cheaper products but still even then it would need some alterations most likely.
This doesn't necessarily mean IBM can't aim to design something more desktop oriented using what they already have though. Of course they could also just build something near entirely from scratch. Taking the POWER 4/5 chip, which at it's core is a relatively good design, then working it into a next generation processor for Apple might be more cost effective.
In the end it probably just comes down to the fact we are an unimaginative bunch who are too lazy to think there is any alternative outside of what already is known to us It's certainly harder to speculate about anyway as you always find yourself comparing the G5 to some form of current tech.
Did that make any sense?
[quote]Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:
<strong>
I don't waste my time listing what's wrong with you....so what's up with the insults? I don't even know who the fu[lk you are, but there you go with a post totally devoid of content save a an unprovoked put-down.
Get a life, buddy. Step outside, have a walk, enjoy the sun, turn off the computer for a few hours a day. It's hard at first, but it will get easier.
Now go and try to think of something to add to this thread worth reading. </strong><hr></blockquote>
It's funny after reading the post Eupfhoria referred to I was really thinking you needed to get away from the boards more yourself. As for the hypocritical insult against him over the contents of his post, it really contributed no more or less than the last two you just made.
Seriously get your head out of your pants and quit the swearing. Not all of us want to see it and you sound like a kid who has never been laid Grow up.
If you're being that specific then you should call it the 8500 (or 7500 if you think that counts and its not going to show up). G5 is really too generic a term and means different things to different people.
Comments
[QB]
idunno.. the entire reason MS and apple made the agreement back in the 90's was cause apple was going under and needed money and MS wanted to be able to say to the government "were not a monopoly. look at apple."
QB]<hr></blockquote>
I just have to laugh at people that think MS invested in Apple to save them, Apple still had cash and was doing OK. If you do some real research you'll find that the purchase of non-controlling stock was part of an agreement to help settle a lot of lawsuits that Apple had against M$ at the time. There were other things done too, but the stock purchase was more or less part of an out of court settlement to get Apple to stop suing them.
They sell FCP for $1000, but what are the actual margins on that? It looks like they're making a hefty profit on it but I'm not so sure. A lot of people buy Mac hardware because it's great software at a great price. If you take out the profit Apple makes on the hardware someone buys to use FCP, Apple's profit probably drops.
More then you know.
[quote] Apple knows what CPU they want to be using in 12-18 months. We can speculate from now until the next PowerMac, but if Apple doesn't know they better start filling out the Chapter 11 forms. I do hope they are changing to AMD(cause Mot sucks) and this is there way of breaking things to us gradually. <hr></blockquote>
Apple does know and they have more then 1 option. However, the AMD option is the last resort on that list.
<strong>
I just have to laugh at people that think MS invested in Apple to save them, Apple still had cash and was doing OK. If you do some real research you'll find that the purchase of non-controlling stock was part of an agreement to help settle a lot of lawsuits that Apple had against M$ at the time. There were other things done too, but the stock purchase was more or less part of an out of court settlement to get Apple to stop suing them.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I seem to remember Apple stoping development of some software technologies around that time, such as OpenDoc and CyberDog as well. The investment was definatly a Quid pro Quo agreement.
Having a high percentage of Mac users using OS X would certainly ease the hardware transition.
So perhaps the "options" are on the software side, rather than the hardware end of things. After all, everything currently points to Apple being more focused on software than hardware.
<strong>
I seem to remember Apple stoping development of some software technologies around that time, such as OpenDoc and CyberDog as well. The investment was definatly a Quid pro Quo agreement.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Both of these technologies had no real value to Apple. Software written for them would have a totally different look and feel and capabilities to any other software. Apple could develop these technologies and then have to beg Adobe to port to them. Because they would look and feel so different it would be hard to "port". However both technologies did have some great features, such as building software out of lots of little objects, just like NeXT ware!! Steve, thank God, pushed for Apple to kill these technologies. NeXT was/is better, and programs do not have to be written in Cocoa to be able to wok on the Mac today. The big selling point of OpenDoc and the like was that I could write an object that would enhance same software that you had and I could sell it to you when you used it. OpenDoc would "see" that you were wanting to do something that was not possible with the software that you had and it would go to Apple or the internet and look for an object that would allow you to do what you wanted. You would be asked if you wanted to do whatever so badly that you would be willing to pay me $25 to add that functionality to your software. It was deemed as the MicroSoft killer, since Microsoft sold the whole widget not small pieces. It was a dumb desperate idea to think that Apple could actually kill the MicroSoft business model by forcing their developers to write programs that would be so different that they could not share code, or look, or feel, with 95% of the computer market.
I think that Steve meant Apple would be sticking with the PPC NOT moving to a different processor type. Apple just pushed through gcc3.1 which is full of Apple brand PPC tweaks and optimizations, this does not appear to be the efforts of a company that will be moving to a different processor any time soon. I would think that Apple could have other companies develop the PPC if they wished. IBM sell Apple a chip that may be packaged in a computer that would sell for $5,000 or less LOL if you think that chip would be a Power4or5or6, unless IBM is seeing a huge market there. One that would have to more than offset that fact that IBM sells these same workstations for around $50,000 and up $150,000, and these processors are the same ones that are in DeepBlue. I can see what Apple gets here, what does IBM get?? I do thank that IBM would develop the PPC further for Apple, but why would they dump Power4 stuff in there? I would guess that a multi-core PPC with on chip memory controller and DDR with RIO would be a great processor. The performance even at 1.2 to 1.5 GHz would put the PPC at or near the top.
<strong>Looks more and more likely that there will be no Power Mac G5.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well that depends on what you expect "G5" to mean. The term originally was short for "PowerPC Generation X". The PPC 601 came first and was therefore G1. The PPC 603/604 and their "e" versions came second and are therefore G2. The 740/750 came next and are therefore G3. The 7400 through 7455 (so far) came after and are therefore G4. By definition the next major architectural change will therefore be G5. It doesn't matter where it comes from, so long as it is a PowerPC.
Think more realistically, (i.e. tomorrow's OSX penetration & tomorrow's CPUs) and the situation looks somewhat different. Instead of the death-throws of Apple's hardware, this might signal Apple's transition to hardware that is faster than you'd dared hope.
<strong>
Well that depends on what you expect "G5" to mean. The term originally was short for "PowerPC Generation X". The PPC 601 came first and was therefore G1. The PPC 603/604 and their "e" versions came second and are therefore G2. The 740/750 came next and are therefore G3. The 7400 through 7455 (so far) came after and are therefore G4. By definition the next major architectural change will therefore be G5. It doesn't matter where it comes from, so long as it is a PowerPC.</strong><hr></blockquote>
G5 as in the G5 on Motorola's roadmap.
Barto
The Power5 derivative from IBM sounds awfully good though too. One thing for sure; something wicked fast this way comes. That much is obvious considering the high end video production aspirations that Apple's software purchases point to. The problem as I see it is timing, and the time is long overdue. We may not see it next month and we may not even see it in San Francisco, but see it we will, and I think I can speak for all of us ~ BRING IT ON !
<strong>Shouldn't we start seeing some of the fruit of the (IBM/Sony/Toshiba) Cell initiative in around the same timeframe as Jobs is talking about? Most of the respondents on this thread seem to be thinking about tomorrow's OSX penetration & today's CPUs.
Think more realistically, (i.e. tomorrow's OSX penetration & tomorrow's CPUs) and the situation looks somewhat different. Instead of the death-throws of Apple's hardware, this might signal Apple's transition to hardware that is faster than you'd dared hope.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is virtually no information about the Cel project, and the fruits of that project will almost certainly appear first in Sony's PS3. There are other things going on in the backrooms and labs of the big companies, so if you have a little faith and a little patience you will be rewarded. Everybody these days seems to expect new stuff now now now now!!! Engineering, especially good engineering, takes time. Apple's not going away any time soon, and we'll see what Jobs has up his sleeve well before then.
<strong>The Legend of the G5 ~ Of all the rampant ruminations on this topic over the past year and a half, the one I like the best is the rumor that Apple has the right to buy out Motorola's AIM interests, for $500 million as I recall. The franking rights to the next generation PPC (G5) would be Apple's and they could fab it out to the lowest bidder (Taiwan?), or make a strategic alliance with someone ,(IBM, AMD?) for it's manufacture,
The Power5 derivative from IBM sounds awfully good though too. One thing for sure; something wicked fast this way comes. That much is obvious considering the high end video production aspirations that Apple's software purchases point to. The problem as I see it is timing, and the time is long overdue. We may not see it next month and we may not even see it in San Francisco, but see it we will, and I think I can speak for all of us ~ BRING IT ON !</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah timing is everything. It's like, right now Apple is in the back of the limo with the Prom queen trying to get it up, and the prom queen is kind, loving, understanding, and fairly patient. But if Apple doesn't get it up soon, then the Prom Queen will be more than happy to give her virginity to the meathead quarterback jock asshole who smacks her ass everyday and calls her his little bitch.
It's looking more and more like Apple's not going to get it up in time....even 12 throbbing inches doesn't cut it if she's already left for the jock's backseat and he's happily driving all 5 inches of wilt into her sweaty ass while she screams for more, more, more!!! Too late, she coulda' had more, but Apple was too slow to get their 12" up and throbbing.
<strong>
Usual JD crapola...</strong><hr></blockquote>
uh, yeah, that's one way to put it...
<strong>
Yeah timing is everything. It's like, right now Apple is in the back of the limo with the Prom queen trying to get it up, and the prom queen is kind, loving, understanding, and fairly patient. But if Apple doesn't get it up soon, then the Prom Queen will be more than happy to give her virginity to the meathead quarterback jock asshole who smacks her ass everyday and calls her his little bitch.
It's looking more and more like Apple's not going to get it up in time....even 12 throbbing inches doesn't cut it if she's already left for the jock's backseat and he's happily driving all 5 inches of wilt into her sweaty ass while she screams for more, more, more!!! Too late, she coulda' had more, but Apple was too slow to get their 12" up and throbbing.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well as they say sometimes 12" in his pants is better than 5" in your ***** as long as you know it will be yours when it finally gets erected. It all depends how horny you are. And Apple have stayed pretty decent all through high school so I think it would be wisest for Apple to wait just a little longer. Or perhaps try to hit on Professor Hal who is equally equipped and are known to deliver what is promised, even if it normally is to more expensive ladies.
....Well its better than car analogies... <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
<strong>
uh, yeah, that's one way to put it...</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't waste my time listing what's wrong with you....so what's up with the insults? I don't even know who the fu[lk you are, but there you go with a post totally devoid of content save a an unprovoked put-down.
Get a life, buddy. Step outside, have a walk, enjoy the sun, turn off the computer for a few hours a day. It's hard at first, but it will get easier.
Now go and try to think of something to add to this thread worth reading. After you do, maybe you should post it. I'd like to read it, at least!
Good luck!
Barto
Also, there's been some credible discussion doubting the efficacy of such a large heat sink.
Well, just a thought. We don't want to appear like self-deluded people that only see what they want to see in the little clues that spill out [I'm not making any accusations to that effect, BTW.].
<strong>
IBM sell Apple a chip that may be packaged in a computer that would sell for $5,000 or less LOL if you think that chip would be a Power4or5or6, unless IBM is seeing a huge market there.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think the point isn't so much we will see a POWER 4 come to the mac as much as something that may pay a passing resemblance.
Really currently if you want to talk about IBM's PPC processors only 2 spring quickly to mind to most people here; G3, POWER series.
Certainly most people don't wish to compare the G5 to current G3 tech even if IBM has a decent roadmap ahead for it.
The POWER series, however, shows what IBM can do when they set their mind to it. I agree it's a server chip, and won't be seen in a desktop computer as it currently stands. The POWER 5 will be more heavily aimed at workstations and cheaper products but still even then it would need some alterations most likely.
This doesn't necessarily mean IBM can't aim to design something more desktop oriented using what they already have though. Of course they could also just build something near entirely from scratch. Taking the POWER 4/5 chip, which at it's core is a relatively good design, then working it into a next generation processor for Apple might be more cost effective.
In the end it probably just comes down to the fact we are an unimaginative bunch who are too lazy to think there is any alternative outside of what already is known to us
Did that make any sense?
[quote]Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:
<strong>
I don't waste my time listing what's wrong with you....so what's up with the insults? I don't even know who the fu[lk you are, but there you go with a post totally devoid of content save a an unprovoked put-down.
Get a life, buddy. Step outside, have a walk, enjoy the sun, turn off the computer for a few hours a day. It's hard at first, but it will get easier.
Now go and try to think of something to add to this thread worth reading. </strong><hr></blockquote>
It's funny after reading the post Eupfhoria referred to I was really thinking you needed to get away from the boards more yourself. As for the hypocritical insult against him over the contents of his post, it really contributed no more or less than the last two you just made.
Seriously get your head out of your pants and quit the swearing. Not all of us want to see it and you sound like a kid who has never been laid
<strong>
G5 as in the G5 on Motorola's roadmap.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
If you're being that specific then you should call it the 8500 (or 7500 if you think that counts and its not going to show up). G5 is really too generic a term and means different things to different people.
*** Sits in the corner for 10 mins
Barto
[ 07-27-2002: Message edited by: Barto ]</p>