US DoJ antitrust probe interviewing developers over Apple's App Store activity

Posted:
in General Discussion edited February 2020
Developers of iOS apps have been interviewed by investigators working for the US Justice Department about Apple's App Store, as part of an antitrust probe into major tech companies and their control over digital marketplaces, and whether they are competing fairly.




Announced in July 2019, the Justice Department probe aims to examine the level of control companies the size of Apple has over the market at large, as both operators and participants. While open, the probe has progressed relatively quietly, with few public signs of progress at this stage, though it seems the agency is now talking to firms potentially affected by antitrust issues.

Speaking to Reuters, Mocicip chief developer Suren Ramasubbu claims he was interviewed by an investigator in November over the matter, specifically about how Apple interacted with the company. A parental control app, Mobicip was temporarily removed from the App Store over failing to meet requirements set by Apple, Ramasubbu told investigators.

The investigators are continuing to talk to others, as a report source familiar with the probe said a small number of developers were being contacted. It is believed to be the first indication that the investigation is looking into Apple's App Store practices.

Apple did not comment to the report, but referred to a website statement about how the App Store aims to hold apps "to a high standard for privacy, security, and content."

The probe is a review to assess "the widespread concerns that consumers, businesses, and entrepreneurs have expressed about search, social media, and some retail services online," the DoJ said at its announcement. Its Antitrust Division was confirmed as "conferring with and seeking information from the public, including industry participants who have direct insight into competition in online platforms, as well as others."

"Without the discipline of meaningful market-based competition, digital platforms may act in ways that are not responsive to consumer demands," said Assistant Attorney General Makan Delrahim of the Antitrust Division at the time. "The Department's antitrust review will explore these important issues."

These markets include the impacts on fields such as retail, social media, and search, with the App Store classifying under the retail category. The review does not currently have any fixed goals, outside of discovering if there are antitrust problems to at all, with a view to possible prosecution for law violation.

The DoJ is not the only one examining the tech giants, as the Federal Trade Commission's own antitrust efforts have been in operation for a year.

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 15
    rob53rob53 Posts: 3,253member
    I would like a hold on this activity by the Justice Dept until the Justice Dept is investigated for all sorts of suspicious activity. 
    jony0watto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 15
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 10,557member
    These developers are playing with fire, biting the hand that feeds them. If the App store is broken up they will be out in the cold trying to sell their wares on some Torrent site. Apple could just as well shut the store down and let the chips fall where they may, the way things were before “stores”. Google Store was started as a response to the App Store anyway. People call Apple greedy bastards. Well, developers, look in the frack’in mirror.
    jony0watto_cobra
  • Reply 3 of 15
    mjtomlinmjtomlin Posts: 2,673member
    Whether Apple runs the store or not, they still own the developer tools and control the platform. Having multiple App Stores or allow the side-loading of apps is not going to help developers other than monetarily. (Of course, Apple could start charging for their developer tools to make up for it?) Apple can still limit what runs on their platform whether they can or cannot control where that app is downloaded from.

    What boggles my mind is that this model of running a platform is what made app sales so huge and helped bring down the price of apps AND helped lessen software piracy AND helped create a very private and secure platform. Now they want to dismantle it and let it fall back to its old ways.

    edited February 2020 watto_cobra
  • Reply 4 of 15
    JinTechJinTech Posts: 1,024member
    mjtomlin said:
    Whether Apple runs the store or not, they still own the developer tools and control the platform. Having multiple App Stores or allow the side-loading of apps is not going to help developers other than monetarily. (Of course, Apple could start charging for their developer tools to make up for it?) Apple can still limit what runs on their platform whether they can or cannot control where that app is downloaded from.

    What boggles my mind is that this model of running a platform is what made app sales so huge and helped bring down the price of apps AND helped lessen software piracy AND helped create a very private and secure platform. Now they want to dismantle it and let it fall back to its old ways.

    lkrupp said:
    These developers are playing with fire, biting the hand that feeds them. If the App store is broken up they will be out in the cold trying to sell their wares on some Torrent site. Apple could just as well shut the store down and let the chips fall where they may, the way things were before “stores”. Google Store was started as a response to the App Store anyway. People call Apple greedy bastards. Well, developers, look in the frack’in mirror.
    Yup to all of this.

    Apple asking for a 30% cut is very modest. Apple is barely making any actual profit from the App Store and instead putting it back to the actual infrastructure.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 5 of 15

    "Without the discipline of meaningful market-based competition, digital platforms may act in ways that are not responsive to consumer demands," said Assistant Attorney General Makan Delrahim of the Antitrust Division at the time. "The Department's antitrust review will explore these important issues."
    A lot of assumptions in that statement:

    1. The customer is always right.
    This does not account for the fact that we are all often ignorant, pig-headed and selfish. Consumer demands should often be treated like the demands of three-year-olds.

    2. Market-based competition is always meaningful.
    The majority of market competition is a race to the bottom that encourages a number of actions that society incurs costs from.

    3. Digital platforms need external forces to control their behaviour.
    Well, this one I'll concur with. But if you're talking about discipline, I think there's one company that has shown it can durably adhere to a set of values and still respond to customer requests.

    Frankly, the biggest consumer demand right now is for our privacy to be respected. If the DoJ wants to regulate something, perhaps the open slather approach to surveillance is a more worthy goal?
    jony0watto_cobra
  • Reply 6 of 15

    "Without the discipline of meaningful market-based competition, digital platforms may act in ways that are not responsive to consumer demands," said Assistant Attorney General Makan Delrahim of the Antitrust Division at the time. "The Department's antitrust review will explore these important issues."
    A lot of assumptions in that statement:

    1. The customer is always right.
    This does not account for the fact that we are all often ignorant, pig-headed and selfish. Consumer demands should often be treated like the demands of three-year-olds.

    2. Market-based competition is always meaningful.
    The majority of market competition is a race to the bottom that encourages a number of actions that society incurs costs from.

    3. Digital platforms need external forces to control their behaviour.
    Well, this one I'll concur with. But if you're talking about discipline, I think there's one company that has shown it can durably adhere to a set of values and still respond to customer requests.

    Frankly, the biggest consumer demand right now is for our privacy to be respected. If the DoJ wants to regulate something, perhaps the open slather approach to surveillance is a more worthy goal?
    Kinda seems that you've actually made way more assumptions than those you attributed to the Asst. AG.  You badly misread that quote and drew incorrect conclusions in absolute terms.  There is no implication that they think the customer is always right, that market based competition is always meaningful, or that digital platforms need external forces to control behavior.  Not sure what you were thinking when you came to those conclusions.  
  • Reply 7 of 15
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,213member
    lkrupp said:
    These developers are playing with fire, biting the hand that feeds them. If the App store is broken up they will be out in the cold trying to sell their wares on some Torrent site. Apple could just as well shut the store down and let the chips fall where they may, the way things were before “stores”. 
    Considering Apple earns $B's in profit from the App Store they won't be shutting it down if some authority tells them they need to make some adjustments to the store. 
    razmataz
  • Reply 8 of 15
    Oh, brother. Private property means the company/owner sets the rules. It’s not possible to violate antitrust laws when there are more competitors serving an arguably bigger market on the Android side. Yes, Apple is leaps and bounds more profitable, but that’s not a criteria for antitrust violation.
    jony0watto_cobra
  • Reply 9 of 15
    mjtomlinmjtomlin Posts: 2,673member
    gatorguy said:
    lkrupp said:
    These developers are playing with fire, biting the hand that feeds them. If the App store is broken up they will be out in the cold trying to sell their wares on some Torrent site. Apple could just as well shut the store down and let the chips fall where they may, the way things were before “stores”. 
    Considering Apple earns $B's in profit from the App Store they won't be shutting it down if some authority tells them they need to make some adjustments to the store. 

    But that's the point. Those $B's are at risk here. If you can't make the product you want, then why bother? If they start dismantling the platform, then it's probably time to move onto something else. Because where does it end? Apple can't use their A-series SoC unless they offer them to other OEM's? It's bad enough the EU is trying to force Apple to ditch their Lightning port. Soon enough innovation will completely die when there's no point in inventing proprietary technology when you're unable to make use of it to compete against competitors.

    Would be fun to see Apple release a cheap "closed" iPhone Lite. Just Apple's apps and services with a few select invite-only 3rd party apps (all free, of course). Almost everything else is on the web anyway.
    edited February 2020 jony0watto_cobra
  • Reply 10 of 15
    mjtomlinmjtomlin Posts: 2,673member
    Oh, brother. Private property means the company/owner sets the rules. It’s not possible to violate antitrust laws when there are more competitors serving an arguably bigger market on the Android side. Yes, Apple is leaps and bounds more profitable, but that’s not a criteria for antitrust violation.

    Well government can't seem to extract any money from actual monopolies, so now they want to change the meaning of monopoly from majority share of the market, to significant share of user base in that market. And they want to change it so that monopoly can also include sub-markets rather than the whole of the open market -- Apple has 100% share of the iOS market, therefor, they are a monopoly.

    However the argument is that Apple is squelching competition in the App Store in favor of their own offerings - to, uh, make less money from 3rd party app sales? LOL
    edited February 2020 jony0watto_cobra
  • Reply 11 of 15
    Oh, brother. Private property means the company/owner sets the rules. It’s not possible to violate antitrust laws when there are more competitors serving an arguably bigger market on the Android side. Yes, Apple is leaps and bounds more profitable, but that’s not a criteria for antitrust violation.
    Oh brother indeed.  How does this "logic" still persist?  Apple has no competition for iOS apps.  If you could get iOS apps for your iPhone or iPad from the Play Store or if Android apps worked on iOS devices, then you'd have a valid argument.  You can't do either and you don't have a valid argument.  Everything you wrote about antitrust is simply wrong.  They gov't isn't looking at Apple for unfair practices in relation to the smartphone market as a whole. Pretty sure you know that too. They are looking at Apple's influence in the App Store.  Android has nothing to do with that.


    edited February 2020 razmataz
  • Reply 12 of 15

    US DoJ antitrust probe interviewing developers who would still be nobodys overwere it not for Apple's App Store activity


    Fixed that for ya.

    Yes, yes, I know, I'm a jerk.  I learned to live with that a long time ago.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 13 of 15
    croprcropr Posts: 1,125member

    Oh, brother. Private property means the company/owner sets the rules. It’s not possible to violate antitrust laws when there are more competitors serving an arguably bigger market on the Android side. Yes, Apple is leaps and bounds more profitable, but that’s not a criteria for antitrust violation.
    From an end user perspective there is indeed choice, but for an app developer like me, the Apple App Store is a monopoly for the distribution of my iOS apps.
     
    From a developer point of view Apple is judge (approving the apps) and involved party (Apple takes the 15%/30% cut and Apple is competing with its own apps).  I don't mind that Apple is controlling the technical side and validating the apps (meeting technical requirements, security, privacy, ...), and I am willing to pay for that.  In fact I already pay $99 a year.

    But the business restrictions that Apple is imposing on the developers, is pure power abuse:  I have to use the App Store, I cannot give my loyal customers extra discount,   I cannot give temporary discounts during launch, I have to use the Apple payment infrastructure with a 30% cut, my apps can be kicked out from the App store without an appeal (which is an enormous risk for an app developer), ...  Having a Mac App Store like approach for iOS, would be a great improvement

    Don't come with the argument that I should switch to Android app development.  Most of my apps can only thrive if they are available on both platforms.  E.g. my e-voting app (the Democrats should have contacted me) makes only sense if all voters, both iOS and Android users, can cast their vote

    jony0
  • Reply 14 of 15
    cropr said:

    Oh, brother. Private property means the company/owner sets the rules. It’s not possible to violate antitrust laws when there are more competitors serving an arguably bigger market on the Android side. Yes, Apple is leaps and bounds more profitable, but that’s not a criteria for antitrust violation.
    From an end user perspective there is indeed choice, but for an app developer like me, the Apple App Store is a monopoly for the distribution of my iOS apps.

    You don't have a right to distribute your iOS apps on Apple's App Store.  Or any apps on any store not owned by you.
    DancingMonkeyswatto_cobra
  • Reply 15 of 15
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,701member
    mjtomlin said:
    gatorguy said:
    lkrupp said:
    These developers are playing with fire, biting the hand that feeds them. If the App store is broken up they will be out in the cold trying to sell their wares on some Torrent site. Apple could just as well shut the store down and let the chips fall where they may, the way things were before “stores”. 
    Considering Apple earns $B's in profit from the App Store they won't be shutting it down if some authority tells them they need to make some adjustments to the store. 

    But that's the point. Those $B's are at risk here. If you can't make the product you want, then why bother? If they start dismantling the platform, then it's probably time to move onto something else. Because where does it end? Apple can't use their A-series SoC unless they offer them to other OEM's? It's bad enough the EU is trying to force Apple to ditch their Lightning port. Soon enough innovation will completely die when there's no point in inventing proprietary technology when you're unable to make use of it to compete against competitors.

    Would be fun to see Apple release a cheap "closed" iPhone Lite. Just Apple's apps and services with a few select invite-only 3rd party apps (all free, of course). Almost everything else is on the web anyway.
    I think putting those billions at risk is the whole point. Competition can drive prices down. 

    Personally, I would be surprised if Apple is not forced to open the platform up to competition.

    Apple depends on the apps. Shutting its own App store down would not be a wise decision.
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