European mobile carriers will share user location data to track coronavirus

Posted:
in General Discussion edited March 2020
Eight major mobile carriers have agreed to share customer location data with the European Commission in a bid to track the spread of COVID-19, the GSMA said in a statement on Wednesday.

Coronavirus


The announcement arrives after Deutsche Telekom, Orange, Telefonica, Telecom Italia, Telenor, Telia, A1 Telekom Austria and Vodafone discussed tracking options with European Commissioner for Internal Market and Services Thierry Breton on Monday, reports Reuters.

Critics voiced concern over the potentially intrusive nature of the measure, saying a centralized database of location information could easily lead to a surveillance state.

Government officials attempted to allay fears by noting all collected data will be anonymized and destroyed once the pandemic is squashed. Further, the current strategy is about informing relevant agencies on the spread of the virus, not to centralize mobile data or police the public, an official said.

According to the European Data Protection Supervisor, the plan does not run afoul of EU privacy laws. EDPS head Wojciech Wiewiorowski in a letter to the Commission said it would be "preferable" to limit consumer location data to authorized experts in spatial epidemiology, data protection and data science. He added that the measures should not be made permanent, the report said.

"The EDPS often stresses that such developments usually do not contain the possibility to step back when the emergency is gone," Wiewiorowski said. "I would like to stress that such solution should be still recognized as extraordinary."

The EU agreement mirrors a similar move by Slovakia, whose parliament today passed legislation that allows government bodies to use location data to track the movement of those infected with the virus, according to the Financial Times. Data from the Johns Hopkins University of Medicine shows 216 confirmed cases of COVID-19 in the country as of this writing.

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 16
    EsquireCatsEsquireCats Posts: 1,208member
    Something that I like to see: Governments and companies actually discussing the customer's privacy, and erring on the side of caution.

    Meanwhile this abhorrent behaviour (plenty of articles, but this one summarised most of the activities and is authoritative in marketing.)
    https://adage.com/article/datadriven-marketing/24-billion-data-business-telcos-discuss/301058 ;
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 16
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,956member
    Given that the number one factor in virus propagation is our ability to crawl the world in record numbers and shorter times, tracking becomes a necessary evil. 

    The idea has been on the table for a while and now the scale of the situation has made it necessary to put it into practice.
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 3 of 16
    benji888benji888 Posts: 133member
    avon b7 said:
    Given that the number one factor in virus propagation is our ability to crawl the world in record numbers and shorter times, tracking becomes a necessary evil

    The idea has been on the table for a while and now the scale of the situation has made it necessary to put it into practice.
    No, just evil.

    the US better not allow this, this is exactly what the current administration wants and they will try to use this “emergency state” as an excuse to do anything they want...they are not transparent and while people are reacting to tweets and news briefings they are doing something else completely. No matter what is said, you cannot trust our best interests are what they care about, because it’s not about that at all.
    viclauyycwatto_cobra
  • Reply 4 of 16
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,699member
    If we are to escape the clutches of this virus, this is an absolute requirement:

    Currently, the U.S. is not talking about either testing or social tracking not because it isn't needed but because we can't.  
    Because of a profound lack of test kits, testing in the U.S. is essentially limited to those who they already know are infected and those whose treatment may be affected if it is definitively proven.  (The government claims we have "enough" test kits -- but that's only because they have set the bar so low.)

    So, with no way to identify those infected zombies roaming our communities, there is no reason to think the virus will be contained.

    Those countries who have contained the virus -- such as China and N. Korea have used a two pronged attack:
    1)  Massive testing of all suspected of being infected -- even if they do not have symptoms.
    2)  Tracking their movements over the previous several days through every means available so that those they have been in contact with can be notified and also tested.

    Without doing those two things we will continue to have infected zombies roaming our streets infecting innocent people.

    So far our government has only worried about the economy and the stock market.  But all $2Trillion will go for naught unless we stop the virus (and no, social distancing will not stop the virus.  It can only slow it down enough to keep our health care system from being overwhelmed.)
  • Reply 5 of 16
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,749member
    AppleInsider said:
    Critics voiced concern over the potentially intrusive nature of the measure, saying a centralized database of location information could easily lead to a surveillance state. 
    Test run time.

    benji888 said:
    the US better not allow this, this is exactly what the current administration wants and they will try to use this “emergency state” as an excuse to do anything they want...
    Current administration? Where did you get that idea? I think there are many in both parties that want this kind of thing, but don't confuse that with the current administration. The current administration, IMO, is a speed-bump in their way.

    But all $2Trillion will go for naught unless we stop the virus (and no, social distancing will not stop the virus.  It can only slow it down enough to keep our health care system from being overwhelmed.)
    Zombie apocalypse, no doubt. I think you need to stop watching so much TV. Sheesh, what do you think this is, the black plague?
  • Reply 6 of 16
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,699member


    But all $2Trillion will go for naught unless we stop the virus (and no, social distancing will not stop the virus.  It can only slow it down enough to keep our health care system from being overwhelmed.)
    Zombie apocalypse, no doubt. I think you need to stop watching so much TV. Sheesh, what do you think this is, the black plague?

    Me thinks you should stop watching lying politicians (and their propaganda machines) and pay attention to facts and science a little more.
    Or, do you think that normalcy will magically rise from the grave on Easter Morning?
  • Reply 7 of 16
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,749member
    GeorgeBMac said:
    Me thinks you should stop watching lying politicians (and their propaganda machines) and pay attention to facts and science a little more.
    Or, do you think that normalcy will magically rise from the grave on Easter Morning?
    The 'we're all going to die!' facts?
    I'm not saying this isn't something to be concerned with, and that we should probably do some amount of social-distancing to help slow the spread a bit (to protect the vulnerable)... though I wonder if it might not be better to try and protect those people (from a spending point of view).

    I'm saying your post reads like this is some existential crisis facing all of humanity, of which we have a slim chance of surviving. And, the mainstream media reflects that. When you talk about facts and science, maybe try putting the numbers alongside some other numbers for a bit more context.

    re: normalcy - It's a bit self-fulfilling, don't you think? Of course things won't get back to normal while the government has everything shut down and the media is preaching hysteria 24/7. Whether that state matches science or facts depends on your trust around whether the government is acting based on them.

    Much like other big issues facing the world, I've heard doctors and virologists giving reports all the way from mild to doom and gloom. But, maybe consider that one of the originators of the doom and gloom models is starting to revise the numbers by orders of magnitude.
  • Reply 8 of 16
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,699member
    cgWerks said:
    GeorgeBMac said:
    Me thinks you should stop watching lying politicians (and their propaganda machines) and pay attention to facts and science a little more.
    Or, do you think that normalcy will magically rise from the grave on Easter Morning?
    The 'we're all going to die!' facts?
    I'm not saying this isn't something to be concerned with, and that we should probably do some amount of social-distancing to help slow the spread a bit (to protect the vulnerable)... though I wonder if it might not be better to try and protect those people (from a spending point of view).

    I'm saying your post reads like this is some existential crisis facing all of humanity, of which we have a slim chance of surviving. And, the mainstream media reflects that. When you talk about facts and science, maybe try putting the numbers alongside some other numbers for a bit more context.

    re: normalcy - It's a bit self-fulfilling, don't you think? Of course things won't get back to normal while the government has everything shut down and the media is preaching hysteria 24/7. Whether that state matches science or facts depends on your trust around whether the government is acting based on them.

    Much like other big issues facing the world, I've heard doctors and virologists giving reports all the way from mild to doom and gloom. But, maybe consider that one of the originators of the doom and gloom models is starting to revise the numbers by orders of magnitude.

    The USA is #1 in one thing anyway -- the number of infections.  And, as our healthcare system gets over run we stand the chance of being #1 in number of deaths as well.  

    And that's all due to Trump and his cult minimizing the impact of this pandemic and not only doing nothing to prepare for it (actually less than nothing as he fired those who could have helped) but continuing to marginalize the impact and promising miraculous cures based on political dreams rather than science.

    We just authorized $2Trillion that we will have to borrow to prop up the stock market.  How much have we spent to save those American lives that are being sacrificed to Trump's negligence and incompetence?   The last I heard he was quibbling over the price of ventilators needed for dying Americans who could have been saved.
    .. Had this been a muslim rather than a virus killing Americans the right wing would be declaring all out war rather than playing pacifist.
    edited March 2020 spheric
  • Reply 9 of 16
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,749member
    GeorgeBMac said:
    The USA is #1 in one thing anyway -- the number of infections.  And, as our healthcare system gets over run we stand the chance of being #1 in number of deaths as well.   

    And that's all due to Trump and his cult minimizing the impact of this pandemic and not only doing nothing to prepare for it (actually less than nothing as he fired those who could have helped) but continuing to marginalize the impact and promising miraculous cures based on political dreams rather than science.

    We just authorized $2Trillion that we will have to borrow to prop up the stock market.  How much have we spent to save those American lives that are being sacrificed to Trump's negligence and incompetence?   The last I heard he was quibbling over the price of ventilators needed for dying Americans who could have been saved.
    .. Had this been a muslim rather than a virus killing Americans the right wing would be declaring all out war rather than playing pacifist.
    Number of infections is based off testing and reporting. We don't know how many infections there actually are... in ANY country. USA is also among the higher of populations of several of the countries being talked about, so it should have a higher number, all things being equal.

    As for the healthcare system being over run, that is more a matter of the precautions needed to be so extra careful about Covid-19, than actual capacity. If you have to suit-up and use special equipment each time anyone sees a patient, just in case, that puts a lot of extra load on a system. While there is a ton of improvement that could be made to the USA's medical system (and I'm for a form of universal healthcare, btw), capacity and expertise aren't the issue (in comparison to other systems).

    Maybe this is a conspiracy, though, as if this goes far enough, it might wipe out some of those big blue spots where people mostly vote against Trump?

    Sadly, we're in agreement on the $Trillions spent and wars, etc. But, just remember, that isn't the Trump administration. That's the neocons, which includes like 80+% of our government representation, Democrat or Republican. They are mostly one on that stuff, they just disagree about other social policy, or what they'd like to spend the trillions on if they get their way.

    My gosh, $2T... that's like 1/10th the entire USA debt being added on top in a matter of weeks. But, I think my concern is more how many times more people will be ultimately lost due to the potential economic collapse and future repercussions of that $2T. And, the worst part of it is I doubt a sizable amount of that $2T is even going to where it is most needed... temporary income replacement for everyone who isn't working.

    And, just for comparison, Trump acted way more quickly and with more effective measures than the leader of your neighbor to the north. My gosh, flights from China (and other impacted areas) are still coming into Canada, and our screening is handing out a pamphlet. At least we're *finally* putting together a semi-reasonable coverage package (a week or two too late).
    gatorguy
  • Reply 10 of 16
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,699member
    cgWerks said:
    GeorgeBMac said:
    The USA is #1 in one thing anyway -- the number of infections.  And, as our healthcare system gets over run we stand the chance of being #1 in number of deaths as well.   

    And that's all due to Trump and his cult minimizing the impact of this pandemic and not only doing nothing to prepare for it (actually less than nothing as he fired those who could have helped) but continuing to marginalize the impact and promising miraculous cures based on political dreams rather than science.

    We just authorized $2Trillion that we will have to borrow to prop up the stock market.  How much have we spent to save those American lives that are being sacrificed to Trump's negligence and incompetence?   The last I heard he was quibbling over the price of ventilators needed for dying Americans who could have been saved.
    .. Had this been a muslim rather than a virus killing Americans the right wing would be declaring all out war rather than playing pacifist.
    Number of infections is based off testing and reporting. We don't know how many infections there actually are... in ANY country. USA is also among the higher of populations of several of the countries being talked about, so it should have a higher number, all things being equal.

    As for the healthcare system being over run, that is more a matter of the precautions needed to be so extra careful about Covid-19, than actual capacity. If you have to suit-up and use special equipment each time anyone sees a patient, just in case, that puts a lot of extra load on a system. While there is a ton of improvement that could be made to the USA's medical system (and I'm for a form of universal healthcare, btw), capacity and expertise aren't the issue (in comparison to other systems).

    Maybe this is a conspiracy, though, as if this goes far enough, it might wipe out some of those big blue spots where people mostly vote against Trump?

    Sadly, we're in agreement on the $Trillions spent and wars, etc. But, just remember, that isn't the Trump administration. That's the neocons, which includes like 80+% of our government representation, Democrat or Republican. They are mostly one on that stuff, they just disagree about other social policy, or what they'd like to spend the trillions on if they get their way.

    My gosh, $2T... that's like 1/10th the entire USA debt being added on top in a matter of weeks. But, I think my concern is more how many times more people will be ultimately lost due to the potential economic collapse and future repercussions of that $2T. And, the worst part of it is I doubt a sizable amount of that $2T is even going to where it is most needed... temporary income replacement for everyone who isn't working.

    And, just for comparison, Trump acted way more quickly and with more effective measures than the leader of your neighbor to the north. My gosh, flights from China (and other impacted areas) are still coming into Canada, and our screening is handing out a pamphlet. At least we're *finally* putting together a semi-reasonable coverage package (a week or two too late).

    While we tail far behind in testing we are leading the pack in infection rates -- mostly due to lack of preparation and treating the virus as a political and economic problem.

    As for hospitals being overrun and nurses and doctors not having enough of the right equipment:   That is not from any change in procedures -- they are following the same procedures now as they would for any patient infected with a contagious respiratory pathogen.  But now, due to the overwhelming patient load they are forced to change those procedures because they are running out of equipment.   They would NEVER, EVER reuse masks, gowns and gloves after caring for an contagious patient under normal circumstances.  Doing so would, under normal conditions, be grounds for dismissal.  Now they are being told to do so -- and threatened with dismissal if they speak out publicly about it!

    As for the $2.2T:   It is a bandaid.   A bandaid put on while the patient was still bleeding out.  All it can do is slow things down.   No economic measures will work till the virus is dealt with -- and we haven't even begun to start.   Social isolation is the equivalent of a tourniquet:  it slows the bleeding but does nothing to fix the problem.  every country who has managed the virus well has used massive community testing along with social tracing to find those the infected person may have also infected.   Another is getting PPE out into the community:   antibacterial wipes, masks, gloves, etc...so the public can protect themselves just as nurses and doctors should be able to do .  But we are so far away from either of those two remedies we aren't even talking about them.   Instead we are hoping that this will all just go away without us having to actually do anything about it.

    A big part of the problem is this is being handled just as climate change is:  as a political problem rather than one informed by science.  And, part of the source of that is that, over the past 20 years and especially over the past 3, we have stripped what had been the world leaders in disease control, prevention and treatment:  the CDC and NIH. Now, instead of research and answers we get speculation and guesses....
  • Reply 11 of 16
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,749member
    GeorgeBMac said:
    While we tail far behind in testing we are leading the pack in infection rates -- mostly due to lack of preparation and treating the virus as a political and economic problem.
    Are we behind in numbers of tests? And, if so, were the early tests accurate enough to be useful? (I've heard contradictory answers to both these questions.)

    Maybe in terms of time/implementation we are (as it appears the CDC initially messed up?)... and yes, Trump delayed, but take a look at what many other world leaders were also doing, or, say the mayors/governors of some of the hardest hit places (cf. parades in ChinaTown or hug and kiss all the Chinese people in the streets, etc.). As more has been learned, people have changed their minds... on both sides of the political spectrum. I don't think we should fault them for that, aside from the silly behavior (again, on both sides... the virtue signaling AND treating it only as a China problem, etc.)

    GeorgeBMac said:
    As for hospitals being overrun and nurses and doctors not having enough of the right equipment:   That is not from any change in procedures -- they are following the same procedures now as they would for any patient infected with a contagious respiratory pathogen.  But now, due to the overwhelming patient load they are forced to change those procedures because they are running out of equipment.   They would NEVER, EVER reuse masks, gowns and gloves after caring for an contagious patient under normal circumstances.  Doing so would, under normal conditions, be grounds for dismissal.  Now they are being told to do so -- and threatened with dismissal if they speak out publicly about it!
    Just remember that it seems only some hospitals are overrun. The reasons for that are kind of complex, and probably come down more to insurance companies and hospital administration. Again, I'm on the side of fixing that. I'd love to see the USA get something more like Canada has, though there are a LOT of problems and complexities with making such a move.

    The equipment issue (from what I've heard) also comes down to hospital administration moving to 'just-in-time' type supply-chain procedures.

    re: same treatment as with any contagious patient - Are you telling me that when they see patients with the flu, they'd suit up similarly?

    GeorgeBMac said:
    As for the $2.2T:   It is a bandaid.   A bandaid put on while the patient was still bleeding out.  All it can do is slow things down.   No economic measures will work till the virus is dealt with -- and we haven't even begun to start.   Social isolation is the equivalent of a tourniquet:  it slows the bleeding but does nothing to fix the problem.  every country who has managed the virus well has used massive community testing along with social tracing to find those the infected person may have also infected.   Another is getting PPE out into the community:   antibacterial wipes, masks, gloves, etc...so the public can protect themselves just as nurses and doctors should be able to do .  But we are so far away from either of those two remedies we aren't even talking about them.   Instead we are hoping that this will all just go away without us having to actually do anything about it.
    Yeah, a bandaid along with the typical money-grab-fest and pork-stuffing.

    The main problem I see, is that we still don't seem to know how contagious this is and/or deadly. I've heard about two strains (or more), which makes a lot of sense as maybe they act differently. Some are acting like if you walk within less than ~6 feet of someone, you'll get it, while others are saying you'd need prolonged time spent close, or some kind of more intimate contact to be infected. And, for some, the symptoms seem almost non-existent or quite mild, while others seem to be taken to near death (even some healthy people). It doesn't make sense yet on the whole.

    It would be *much* better economically if we could try to protect the vulnerable (from the virus and w/ financial support), while letting as much of the rest of society to continue closer to normal. But, that depends on what we're actually facing here. The media has taken worst-case everything, and we seem to be reacting based on worst-case everything. My problem is that the other side of the equation isn't w/o cost (financially, sure, but also much bigger picture).

    I don't think anyone is saying 'do nothing'. But, what about canceling bigger events/gatherings (ie. reasonable social distancing, at least for non-essential stuff), certain job types that require a lot of person-to-person interaction, very strict procedures for at-risk people (elderly care homes already do this for the most part, and good financial support for at-risk so they can stay isolated w/o financial impact), stopping certain travel, etc. I'd think a heck of a lot of jobs could still continue, whether from home, or say jobs like a warehouse worker or office job that needs to be in-office. They are in contact with the same few people each day, not random public. (BTW, I'm still working part-time in that situation, and I'm not really afraid at all in terms of health.)

    GeorgeBMac said:
    A big part of the problem is this is being handled just as climate change is:  as a political problem rather than one informed by science.  And, part of the source of that is that, over the past 20 years and especially over the past 3, we have stripped what had been the world leaders in disease control, prevention and treatment:  the CDC and NIH. Now, instead of research and answers we get speculation and guesses....
    Well, there are some parallels, IMO. The fear (while there is real problems and concern in both cases) is being driven by the most extreme models, and most only covered on the most extreme outcomes by the media. The science seems to be debated or at least undecided in some ways, yet we're mostly only hearing one side. The push is to (potentially) overreact w/o seemingly counting the costs of doing so.
  • Reply 12 of 16
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,699member
    cgWerks said:
    GeorgeBMac said:
    While we tail far behind in testing we are leading the pack in infection rates -- mostly due to lack of preparation and treating the virus as a political and economic problem.
    Are we behind in numbers of tests? And, if so, were the early tests accurate enough to be useful? (I've heard contradictory answers to both these questions.)

    Maybe in terms of time/implementation we are (as it appears the CDC initially messed up?)... and yes, Trump delayed, but take a look at what many other world leaders were also doing, or, say the mayors/governors of some of the hardest hit places (cf. parades in ChinaTown or hug and kiss all the Chinese people in the streets, etc.). As more has been learned, people have changed their minds... on both sides of the political spectrum. I don't think we should fault them for that, aside from the silly behavior (again, on both sides... the virtue signaling AND treating it only as a China problem, etc.)

    GeorgeBMac said:
    As for hospitals being overrun and nurses and doctors not having enough of the right equipment:   That is not from any change in procedures -- they are following the same procedures now as they would for any patient infected with a contagious respiratory pathogen.  But now, due to the overwhelming patient load they are forced to change those procedures because they are running out of equipment.   They would NEVER, EVER reuse masks, gowns and gloves after caring for an contagious patient under normal circumstances.  Doing so would, under normal conditions, be grounds for dismissal.  Now they are being told to do so -- and threatened with dismissal if they speak out publicly about it!
    Just remember that it seems only some hospitals are overrun. The reasons for that are kind of complex, and probably come down more to insurance companies and hospital administration. Again, I'm on the side of fixing that. I'd love to see the USA get something more like Canada has, though there are a LOT of problems and complexities with making such a move.

    The equipment issue (from what I've heard) also comes down to hospital administration moving to 'just-in-time' type supply-chain procedures.

    re: same treatment as with any contagious patient - Are you telling me that when they see patients with the flu, they'd suit up similarly?

    GeorgeBMac said:
    As for the $2.2T:   It is a bandaid.   A bandaid put on while the patient was still bleeding out.  All it can do is slow things down.   No economic measures will work till the virus is dealt with -- and we haven't even begun to start.   Social isolation is the equivalent of a tourniquet:  it slows the bleeding but does nothing to fix the problem.  every country who has managed the virus well has used massive community testing along with social tracing to find those the infected person may have also infected.   Another is getting PPE out into the community:   antibacterial wipes, masks, gloves, etc...so the public can protect themselves just as nurses and doctors should be able to do .  But we are so far away from either of those two remedies we aren't even talking about them.   Instead we are hoping that this will all just go away without us having to actually do anything about it.
    Yeah, a bandaid along with the typical money-grab-fest and pork-stuffing.

    The main problem I see, is that we still don't seem to know how contagious this is and/or deadly. I've heard about two strains (or more), which makes a lot of sense as maybe they act differently. Some are acting like if you walk within less than ~6 feet of someone, you'll get it, while others are saying you'd need prolonged time spent close, or some kind of more intimate contact to be infected. And, for some, the symptoms seem almost non-existent or quite mild, while others seem to be taken to near death (even some healthy people). It doesn't make sense yet on the whole.

    It would be *much* better economically if we could try to protect the vulnerable (from the virus and w/ financial support), while letting as much of the rest of society to continue closer to normal. But, that depends on what we're actually facing here. The media has taken worst-case everything, and we seem to be reacting based on worst-case everything. My problem is that the other side of the equation isn't w/o cost (financially, sure, but also much bigger picture).

    I don't think anyone is saying 'do nothing'. But, what about canceling bigger events/gatherings (ie. reasonable social distancing, at least for non-essential stuff), certain job types that require a lot of person-to-person interaction, very strict procedures for at-risk people (elderly care homes already do this for the most part, and good financial support for at-risk so they can stay isolated w/o financial impact), stopping certain travel, etc. I'd think a heck of a lot of jobs could still continue, whether from home, or say jobs like a warehouse worker or office job that needs to be in-office. They are in contact with the same few people each day, not random public. (BTW, I'm still working part-time in that situation, and I'm not really afraid at all in terms of health.)

    GeorgeBMac said:
    A big part of the problem is this is being handled just as climate change is:  as a political problem rather than one informed by science.  And, part of the source of that is that, over the past 20 years and especially over the past 3, we have stripped what had been the world leaders in disease control, prevention and treatment:  the CDC and NIH. Now, instead of research and answers we get speculation and guesses....
    Well, there are some parallels, IMO. The fear (while there is real problems and concern in both cases) is being driven by the most extreme models, and most only covered on the most extreme outcomes by the media. The science seems to be debated or at least undecided in some ways, yet we're mostly only hearing one side. The push is to (potentially) overreact w/o seemingly counting the costs of doing so.
    Yes, we knew it was coming and did nothing:
    For tests:   We turned down the test kits offered by the WHO in favor of Trump's go it alone strategy and then were not only far too late producing our own but, when we finally did, they were faulty.   Finally the FDA relented and began to allow private labs to produce their own tests.  But as they ramped up very slowly, the virus was establishing itself throughout the U.S.   And today, we still do not have the testing facilities that China and S.Korea used to spot those who have the virus and then find out who they've been in contact with and test them too.   We are still in the phase of testing only those in the medical system.  Until we are able to do wide spread community based testing and follow up with quaratines and contact tracing with virus is going nowhere -- or more correctly:  everywhere.

    And the lack of preparation was further compounded by the lack of protective equipment -- both for medical personnel as well as those in the community.   It came out yesterday the reason Americans were not told to wear masks was that we did not have enough and they were afraid that there would be a run on those needed in hospitals --- which there was anyway.  As for antiseptic wipes -- they're as hard to find a toilet paper.

    For the country that formally led the world in public health that all adds up to both Gross Negligence and Gross Incompetence -- which all trickled down from the top -- first by gutting the agencies charged with public health and then ignoring the problem. 

    In short:  Trump dug us a hole and then buried us in it -- and is now leaving it up to governors without the public health facilities that he has had to dig us out.

    Are hospitals overrun because of systemic problems?
    LOL NO!   They are overrun because, as I just described, despite knowing that the virus was coming we did not prepare and instead let the virus run out of control and did not start reacting till far too late -- and then the response was inadequate -- and still is.  
    (And yes, hospitals have strict procedures for handling and isolating infectious patients -- all of which are being violated these days due to our lack of preparation.  That puts both patients and staff at high risk.)

    Picking and choosing rather than mass social isolation?
    Eventually we have to get there.  But until we get widespread community testing & contact tracing along with adequate protective supplies for the public (masks, gloves, antiseptics wipes and solutions) it is a pipe dream because the virus will keep on spreading wider and wider.

    We can speculate whether there are different strains of virus (all viruses mutate) or if different people respond differently.  We don't know because our public health agencies in charge of knowing have been gutted.  But, as we debate, the virus rolls over our country.

    Again, it comes down to the original Gross Negligence and Gross Incompetence from lack or preparation.   We put ourselves in a hole and have not yet dug ourselves out of that hole.  Will we ever get to the point of managing this competently like China and S. Korea did?   I doubt it because the experts required have been purged -- having one stand up at a podium and various talk shows isn't going to cut it.   We need our public health agencies properly staffed (up) and properly funded -- and that isn't happening.  We are instead channeling this through private, for profit organizations.

    Is the virus being exaggerated for political reasons?
    LOL...  We lead the world in infections and our death rate surpassed that of 911 -- and it shows NO signs of stopping.  No, those who "are taking the worst case scenario" were and are correct.   Those burying their heads in their butts need to shut up and sit down -- instead of conducting daily political rallies  on the tax payer's dime and attacking all who question their competence in the face of their gross incompetence.



  • Reply 13 of 16
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,107member
    People are starting to harp on „protect the vulnerable, and let everyone else get on with life“. 

    For one, it’s not just „the vulnerable“ that are dying. And it’s by far not just „the vulnerable“ who need to be treated in hospital (and survive), keeping ICU beds that are needed by patients suffering from OTHER illnesses/injuries that will kill them without appropriate care. 

    The other thing is who is „vulnerable“. 
    If you’re counting everyone over 50, plus diabetics, plus those with heart disease, lung disorders, and the other preëxisting conditions that put you at risk, you’re talking about roughly HALF THE POPULATION (at least here in Germany). How do you isolate those? A number of them need care, they all need groceries, doctors‘ visits, etc. You cannot „isolate“ half the population from the rest. 
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 14 of 16
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,699member
    spheric said:
    People are starting to harp on „protect the vulnerable, and let everyone else get on with life“. 

    For one, it’s not just „the vulnerable“ that are dying. And it’s by far not just „the vulnerable“ who need to be treated in hospital (and survive), keeping ICU beds that are needed by patients suffering from OTHER illnesses/injuries that will kill them without appropriate care. 

    The other thing is who is „vulnerable“. 
    If you’re counting everyone over 50, plus diabetics, plus those with heart disease, lung disorders, and the other preëxisting conditions that put you at risk, you’re talking about roughly HALF THE POPULATION (at least here in Germany). How do you isolate those? A number of them need care, they all need groceries, doctors‘ visits, etc. You cannot „isolate“ half the population from the rest. 

    All true....   But also, here in the U.S., most beds are filled with middle aged people rather than elderly.   That may be simply because there are more of them to get sick (I haven't seen statistics to break that down) but they do seem to comprise the bulk of hospitalized patients.
  • Reply 15 of 16
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,302member
    spheric said:
    People are starting to harp on „protect the vulnerable, and let everyone else get on with life“. 

    For one, it’s not just „the vulnerable“ that are dying. And it’s by far not just „the vulnerable“ who need to be treated in hospital (and survive), keeping ICU beds that are needed by patients suffering from OTHER illnesses/injuries that will kill them without appropriate care. 

    The other thing is who is „vulnerable“. 
    If you’re counting everyone over 50, plus diabetics, plus those with heart disease, lung disorders, and the other preëxisting conditions that put you at risk, you’re talking about roughly HALF THE POPULATION (at least here in Germany). How do you isolate those? A number of them need care, they all need groceries, doctors‘ visits, etc. You cannot „isolate“ half the population from the rest. 

    All true....   But also, here in the U.S., most beds are filled with middle aged people rather than elderly.   That may be simply because there are more of them to get sick (I haven't seen statistics to break that down) but they do seem to comprise the bulk of hospitalized patients.
    This one is pretty thorough
    http://www.healthdata.org/sites/default/files/files/research_articles/2020/covid_paper_MEDRXIV-2020-043752v1-Murray.pdf
    edited April 2020
  • Reply 16 of 16
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,749member
    GeorgeBMac said:
    For tests:   We turned down the test kits offered by the WHO in favor of Trump's go it alone strategy ...
    Adm Brett Giroir HHS on the WHO test that was NOT offered
    http://adam.curry.com/enc/1584647876.372_admbrettgiroirhhsonthewhotestthatwasnotoffered.mp3

    GeorgeBMac said:
    Yes, we knew it was coming and did nothing:
    Here's what the MSM was saying early on, just for a bit of context...
    Media supercuts of warning FLU worse than corona virus
    http://adam.curry.com/enc/1585858524.926_meidasupercutsofwarningfluworsethancoronavirus.mp3

    GeorgeBMac said:
    They are overrun because, as I just described, despite knowing that the virus was coming we did not prepare and instead let the virus run out of control and did not start reacting till far too late -- and then the response was inadequate -- and still is.
    Didn't Tump shut down flights from hot-spots quite early, and was widely criticized for doing so? I think we (Canada) finally stopped flights a couple days ago. Our fearless leader is hiding in his house in his PJs. And, our screening was handing out a pamphlet.

    GeorgeBMac said:
    No, those who "are taking the worst case scenario" were and are correct.   Those burying their heads in their butts need to shut up and sit down -- instead of conducting daily political rallies  on the tax payer's dime and attacking all who question their competence in the face of their gross incompetence.
    You mean like the projection in the UK that set the whole thing ablaze... downgrading from 500k to 20k?
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