I’m not sure I’d describe it as a “standoff”. Apple and Google don’t have to make this technology available, they are choosing to. It’s of little consequence to them if certain countries decide to not use it.
If France and Germany want a solution that allows them to build a centralised database, requires always-on Bluetooth scanning, and also requires that the device is permanently unlocked with their app running in the foreground, then they are free to create such a solution.
Good luck with that though.
Fines of say, a Million $ a day (or an hour) might encourage the two sides to work together. As Apple has always acknowledged, companies must obey the laws of the country it is operating in -- not the country it is headquartered in.
I’m not sure I’d describe it as a “standoff”. Apple and Google don’t have to make this technology available, they are choosing to. It’s of little consequence to them if certain countries decide to not use it.
If France and Germany want a solution that allows them to build a centralised database, requires always-on Bluetooth scanning, and also requires that the device is permanently unlocked with their app running in the foreground, then they are free to create such a solution.
Good luck with that though.
Fines of say, a Million $ a day (or an hour) might encourage the two sides to work together. As Apple has always acknowledged, companies must obey the laws of the country it is operating in -- not the country it is headquartered in.
What law wouldn't they be following if they don't make the changes France would like? Nada as far as I know.
But the question here is: How many people will you kill protecting your privacy? How many others have to die for the sake of your privacy? 1? 10? 100?
But, it's not just lives. It's the economy stupid! Without testing and contact tracing the only recourse is either to maintain social distancing or let the virus run rampant. And, either of those two options will kill the economy.
So, effective tracing and effective contact tracing will not only save lives but enable the economy to recover.
So, F your privacy!
Singapore was the poster child for how to effectively control the spread. Lots of testing and the personally identifiable contact tracing you are suggesting, where the names and addresses of those infected were available rather than private and anonymized, were some of the essential tools...
"The city-state drew international praise for its ability to blunt the spread of COVID-19 while avoiding some of the drastic containment measures seen in countries like China, Italy and Spain. But Singapore's lauded response has come into question. Last week, it enforced a partial lockdown as it struggles to contain a sharp rise in coronavirus cases.
As part of Singapore's stricter "circuit breaker" measures, it shuttered most workplaces last Tuesday. The following day, school closures went into effect for at least a month, shifting students to "full home-based learning." The government has also banned public and private social gatherings of any size, meaning residents who entertain guests face six months of jail time or a fine of up to $7,000."
"The move underscores the risks that the coronavirus poses -- even after a country has seemingly taken the necessary steps to protect itself. The semi-lockdown came after Singapore witnessed an explosion of confirmed coronavirus cases, from 106 infections on March 1 to 1,000 on April 1. Those figures indicate most infections were transmitted locally and that a growing number of cases have no known links to confirmed patients. "
So now they're sliding back a bit towards social distancing and clamping down on large parts of their society. Just when you think it's safe to get back in water you realize things are not quite so clear as you thought they were.
But France is not like Singapore, which is not like Australia, which is not like Norway, which is not like Montana, which is not like Florida. What is essential one place may be under or overkill in another. The US is almost like 50 separate countries with individual economies and Covid-19 impact, much as France has its own challenges apart from some of the rest of the EU and definitely the world at wide.
France may want, even need, to do things differently from the US, or Singapore, or Canada, or New York City. If they can use what Apple and Google have designed then great, and I doubt their citizen's in general would object to better privacy, but those two techs should not be required to modify how the system works to appease them and affect every other community and country in the world perhaps negatively. My personal opinion of course.
Weird that on one hand EU has always pushed for stringent PDPA laws to protect privacy yet now contradict themselves to allow centralised storage of data without users’ permission.
The EU bureaucracy pretends to care about its citizens but it's number one priority is protecting and promoting the plan for an EU superstate. Its ambitions wrecked the economies of Southern Europe by allowing them to join the euro, and it provoked the invasion of the Ukraine.
The EU will undoubtedly use such centralised tracking resources to undermine and counter anti-EU political organisations in member states. Today's technology gives it the kind of survellience powers the KGB could only dream of.
Thank goodness democracy prevailed in the UK and we managed to leave.
The same EU that pretends to care for its citizens also lets China push it around.
But the question here is: How many people will you kill protecting your privacy? How many others have to die for the sake of your privacy? 1? 10? 100?
But, it's not just lives. It's the economy stupid! Without testing and contact tracing the only recourse is either to maintain social distancing or let the virus run rampant. And, either of those two options will kill the economy.
So, effective tracing and effective contact tracing will not only save lives but enable the economy to recover.
So, F your privacy!
Singapore was the poster child for how to effectively control the spread. Lots of testing and the personally identifiable contact tracing you are suggesting, where the names and addresses of those infected were available rather than private and anonymized, were some of the essential tools...
"The city-state drew international praise for its ability to blunt the spread of COVID-19 while avoiding some of the drastic containment measures seen in countries like China, Italy and Spain. But Singapore's lauded response has come into question. Last week, it enforced a partial lockdown as it struggles to contain a sharp rise in coronavirus cases.
As part of Singapore's stricter "circuit breaker" measures, it shuttered most workplaces last Tuesday. The following day, school closures went into effect for at least a month, shifting students to "full home-based learning." The government has also banned public and private social gatherings of any size, meaning residents who entertain guests face six months of jail time or a fine of up to $7,000."
"The move underscores the risks that the coronavirus poses -- even after a country has seemingly taken the necessary steps to protect itself. The semi-lockdown came after Singapore witnessed an explosion of confirmed coronavirus cases, from 106 infections on March 1 to 1,000 on April 1. Those figures indicate most infections were transmitted locally and that a growing number of cases have no known links to confirmed patients. "
So now they're sliding back a bit towards social distancing and clamping down on large parts of their society. Just when you think it's safe to get back in water you realize things are not quite so clear as you thought they were.
But France is not like Singapore, which is not like Australia, which is not like Norway, which is not like Montana, which is not like Florida. What is essential one place may be under or overkill in another. The US is almost like 50 separate countries with individual economies and Covid-19 impact, much as France has its own challenges apart from some of the rest of the EU and definitely the world at wide.
France may want, even need, to do things differently from the US, or Singapore, or Canada, or New York City. If they can use what Apple and Google have designed then great, and I doubt their citizen's in general would object to better privacy, but those two techs should not be required to modify how the system works to appease them and affect every other community and country in the world perhaps negatively. My personal opinion of course.
Yeh, some were holding Singapore up as a poster child. And they they did do some good things -- just not enough of them.
They ignored the fact that they are dependent on a large migrant population that they house in dormitory conditions that are incubators for the virus.
As for each country, state or county having "different needs": the virus doesn't care and doesn't change. It's the same virus in Kyokuk Iowa as it is New York city.
As long as we have no herd immunity, vaccine or effective treatment there is only one solution: prevent the spread of infections. You can do that by shutting everything down and telling people to hide in their houses. But at some point more efficient measures are needed and no matter how you cut it that comes down to getting the infectious people off of our streets and out of our stores. And, there is only one way to do that: Identify the infectious as quickly as possible, then identify those that they may have infected and check them too. Then quarantine the infectious in as humane a way as possible till they are no longer a danger to society.
The only differences are in political maneuvering rather than basic science.
Interesting! Ohio stopped following CDC advice to only test those showing symptoms and started testing its state prisoners. The result in one prison was:
"They started with the Marion Correctional Institution, which houses
2,500 prisoners in north central Ohio, many of them older with
pre-existing health conditions. After testing 2,300 inmates for the
coronavirus, they were shocked. Of the 2,028 who tested positive, close
to 95% had no symptoms."
Essentially, that was 2,028 Typhoid Mary's in a single prison.
It also implies that the the same percentage may be roaming our streets and our stores.
That grocery store cashier who's feeling fine could be infecting every customer who comes down her aisle.
There can be only two responses to that: Either let the virus run rampant and kill whoever it will kill. Or start mass testing -- starting with those who face the public on a daily basis. And, then of course, trace their contacts and test them too.
This is the same EU that created the GDPR, which actually does nothing to protect people but makes Europeans feel all warm and fuzzy inside. If you don't want to be tracked, you don't use the Internet, a smartphone, credit cards, etc.
This is the same EU that created the GDPR, which actually does nothing to protect people but makes Europeans feel all warm and fuzzy inside. If you don't want to be tracked, you don't use the Internet, a smartphone, credit cards, etc.
The GDPR was absolutely necessary. The people I have spoken to that know about the technical side agree that it was well written.
With fines able to reach 20 million euros or 4% of annual revenue, it has clout, too. Only 1% of decisions have been challenged in court.
But the question here is: How many people will you kill protecting your privacy? How many others have to die for the sake of your privacy? 1? 10? 100?
But, it's not just lives. It's the economy stupid! Without testing and contact tracing the only recourse is either to maintain social distancing or let the virus run rampant. And, either of those two options will kill the economy.
So, effective tracing and effective contact tracing will not only save lives but enable the economy to recover.
So, F your privacy!
Singapore was the poster child for how to effectively control the spread. Lots of testing and the personally identifiable contact tracing you are suggesting, where the names and addresses of those infected were available rather than private and anonymized, were some of the essential tools...
"The city-state drew international praise for its ability to blunt the spread of COVID-19 while avoiding some of the drastic containment measures seen in countries like China, Italy and Spain. But Singapore's lauded response has come into question. Last week, it enforced a partial lockdown as it struggles to contain a sharp rise in coronavirus cases.
As part of Singapore's stricter "circuit breaker" measures, it shuttered most workplaces last Tuesday. The following day, school closures went into effect for at least a month, shifting students to "full home-based learning." The government has also banned public and private social gatherings of any size, meaning residents who entertain guests face six months of jail time or a fine of up to $7,000."
"The move underscores the risks that the coronavirus poses -- even after a country has seemingly taken the necessary steps to protect itself. The semi-lockdown came after Singapore witnessed an explosion of confirmed coronavirus cases, from 106 infections on March 1 to 1,000 on April 1. Those figures indicate most infections were transmitted locally and that a growing number of cases have no known links to confirmed patients. "
So now they're sliding back a bit towards social distancing and clamping down on large parts of their society. Just when you think it's safe to get back in water you realize things are not quite so clear as you thought they were.
But France is not like Singapore, which is not like Australia, which is not like Norway, which is not like Montana, which is not like Florida. What is essential one place may be under or overkill in another. The US is almost like 50 separate countries with individual economies and Covid-19 impact, much as France has its own challenges apart from some of the rest of the EU and definitely the world at wide.
France may want, even need, to do things differently from the US, or Singapore, or Canada, or New York City. If they can use what Apple and Google have designed then great, and I doubt their citizen's in general would object to better privacy, but those two techs should not be required to modify how the system works to appease them and affect every other community and country in the world perhaps negatively. My personal opinion of course.
Yeh, some were holding Singapore up as a poster child. And they they did do some good things -- just not enough of them.
They ignored the fact that they are dependent on a large migrant population that they house in dormitory conditions that are incubators for the virus.
As for each country, state or county having "different needs": the virus doesn't care and doesn't change. It's the same virus in Kyokuk Iowa as it is New York city.
As long as we have no herd immunity, vaccine or effective treatment there is only one solution: prevent the spread of infections. You can do that by shutting everything down and telling people to hide in their houses. But at some point more efficient measures are needed and no matter how you cut it that comes down to getting the infectious people off of our streets and out of our stores. And, there is only one way to do that: Identify the infectious as quickly as possible, then identify those that they may have infected and check them too. Then quarantine the infectious in as humane a way as possible till they are no longer a danger to society.
The only differences are in political maneuvering rather than basic science.
Unfortunately I don't think you can discount the differences in each country as simply "political manoeuvring". Yes the way the virus spread is pretty primal and basic at its core which necessitates the need for mass track and trace, BUT you simply cannot discount the fact that each collective of people will respond in different ways to the methods used to limit the spread and for how long they will be happy to live under these methods. Democratic societies generally value the freedoms they live with daily over those who have never really lived with them. Consequently, the withdrawal of may of these freedoms for the sake of the pandemic will be accepted for differing periods of time. It is not politics that determines this acceptance, it is the very people of the country that determines it and this acceptance will vary dramatically from country to country via a combination of factors. Every country needs to approach this in a way that is accepted by their respective populace otherwise it just won't work, no matter what the "basic science" of it may be. As is clearly apparent in the variety of symptoms and results - there is no such thing as an average person nor a one size fits all solution.
There are effectively two strategies to deal with this current virus: Herd Immunity and Treatment. This is because the virus is far too widespread in most countries to be able to control via a "Contain" only strategy. Track and trace is critically important for "Contain", but of less importance for the other two with the exception of the management of patient flows into health systems for treatment. The simple fact we have resorted to mass lockdowns shows that the current track and trace infrastructure is not able to cope with this virus and the ability for any government to "prevent the spread of infections" for the sort of time needed to allow the virus to burn itself out is not a viable solution.
I am getting tired of people using the term "herd immunity" as if it is not a solution yet then go on to say that a vaccine is the solution. Well I have news for everyone, use of vaccines is the very definition of "herd immunity"! Immunity can be built up in a population naturally - via infection and treatment - and/or man-made - via a vaccine. The end result is essentially the same; the reduction of the R0 factor of a given infection. What we DO NOT KNOW right now is if immunity is developed naturally and if so for how long. We won't know for quite some time as more data is needed and in this instance, more data equals more infected people.
The same (imperfect) EU that has brought 75 years of peace and prosperity to Europe? Remember that WWII thing caused by a fractured Europe ? The U.K. has comprehensively shot itself in the foot and damaged itself terribly economically for absurd xenophobic reasons. Also to point out that the U.K. has some of the most pervasive monitoring of its populace anywhere...it’s no beacon of privacy.
I would disagree. The EU has not brought peace. The EU itself will lead to further conflict in the future.
The USA has brought peace by having plenty of US troops and equipment stationed there ever since WWII. Russia would've walked all over the EU a long time ago if it wasn't for the protection of the US. The EU is incapable of protecting anything. The USA should pull everything out of Europe and let them fend for themselves, and we'll see how that works out. I'll grab the popcorn if and when that happens.
And the UK has not shot themselves in the foot. They were real smart to leave the EU, and it's about time that they did. The UK will be just fine on its own together with its allies. The UK does not need the EU one bit. They are a disgusting bunch, just go watch some of those videos from the European parliament. Nigel Farage owns them all.
This isn't really true. The U.S has always had a strategic interest in the EU. Without the various U.S military bases here, it would lose influence and that is what matters to the U.S government. Having Russia walking over the EU wouldn't do much for U.S influence.
If the U.S were to pull out of the EU, the EU would simply fill the holes. It would have no other option. However, if the U.S were to do that, it would find itself in a serious pickle.
75 years of peace has been through unification, not the U.S military presence. Integration and stability have brought prosperity to many nations and stability is one of the pillars of peace.
There have been challenges and there will be more and the EU has a stated goal of becoming independent on many levels. Notably in technology and there have always been moves promoting the creation of an EU wide defence force. Something the U.S clearly doesn't want to see become reality. Just like it didn't want the euro to become reality. Just like it doesn't want Huawei to have influence anywhere. The U.S wants its strategic influence tentacles in every pie.
The U.K has a long track record of outsourcing sensitive data management to U.S companies and seeing things backfire. U.S foreign policy is backfiring across the globe as more and more nations push back.
I doubt the specific issues detailed in this article have anything to do with its technological independence drive but the EU's desire to be in full control is possibly why it already has its own plans for contact tracing.
You are probably both right to some degree because the truth often lies in the middle. But there are some simple misconceptions.
1. The EU has only existed since 1993 and was created via the ‘Maastricht’ Treaty on European Union. This transformed what was a largely successful trading bloc into a political body with a view to being some kind of federal governmental body. This also happens to be the same action that from this point there has been a significant increase and continuous growth across the entire EU in "euro-scepticism". One could almost say that this is the root cause of many of the EU's current problems and has resulted in a large increase in instability within may of the member countries and has by inference not brought peace. 2. Prior to 1993 there was no EU, it was actually the EEC - the European Economic Community - which had no political body or structure to speak of. It was primarily a trading body and was very successful at promoting free cross border trade between its membership. This was also the core reason for stability across the western continent. So the EEC brought peace and stability through open trade.
What is often overlooked by the pro-EU movement is the simple fact of the US military being stationed in Europe created a sphere of protection from Russian aggression which enabled Europe to rebuild its economy without the need to spend huge amounts on its military. This is very similar to what happened with Japan. Even today the European militaries are almost entirely dependent on US military assistance because they haven't had the necessary spending directed at them and there is no ability for them to "fill the holes" should the US pull out. Yes the EU may not have an option, but it would take years to do it and they would be impotent to protect against any aggressor in the interim, instead having to fall back on the French and UK nuclear deterrent.
Indeed, it would seem that the EU has undermined all the good work for peace and stability its predecessor, the EEC, created. Perhaps it will be looked back that the creation of the political body to create the EU was a step too far as it gave delusions of grandeur to may that hold its offices, though in truth only time will tell for sure what will happen.
Germany just changed their strategy: from centralised to decentralised. PEPP-PT is dead and Fraunhofer institute is not longer involved in following up the new app. This article needs an update!
The same (imperfect) EU that has brought 75 years of peace and prosperity to Europe? Remember that WWII thing caused by a fractured Europe ? The U.K. has comprehensively shot itself in the foot and damaged itself terribly economically for absurd xenophobic reasons. Also to point out that the U.K. has some of the most pervasive monitoring of its populace anywhere...it’s no beacon of privacy.
I would disagree. The EU has not brought peace. The EU itself will lead to further conflict in the future.
The USA has brought peace by having plenty of US troops and equipment stationed there ever since WWII. Russia would've walked all over the EU a long time ago if it wasn't for the protection of the US. The EU is incapable of protecting anything. The USA should pull everything out of Europe and let them fend for themselves, and we'll see how that works out. I'll grab the popcorn if and when that happens.
And the UK has not shot themselves in the foot. They were real smart to leave the EU, and it's about time that they did. The UK will be just fine on its own together with its allies. The UK does not need the EU one bit. They are a disgusting bunch, just go watch some of those videos from the European parliament. Nigel Farage owns them all.
This isn't really true. The U.S has always had a strategic interest in the EU. Without the various U.S military bases here, it would lose influence and that is what matters to the U.S government. Having Russia walking over the EU wouldn't do much for U.S influence.
If the U.S were to pull out of the EU, the EU would simply fill the holes. It would have no other option. However, if the U.S were to do that, it would find itself in a serious pickle.
75 years of peace has been through unification, not the U.S military presence. Integration and stability have brought prosperity to many nations and stability is one of the pillars of peace.
There have been challenges and there will be more and the EU has a stated goal of becoming independent on many levels. Notably in technology and there have always been moves promoting the creation of an EU wide defence force. Something the U.S clearly doesn't want to see become reality. Just like it didn't want the euro to become reality. Just like it doesn't want Huawei to have influence anywhere. The U.S wants its strategic influence tentacles in every pie.
The U.K has a long track record of outsourcing sensitive data management to U.S companies and seeing things backfire. U.S foreign policy is backfiring across the globe as more and more nations push back.
I doubt the specific issues detailed in this article have anything to do with its technological independence drive but the EU's desire to be in full control is possibly why it already has its own plans for contact tracing.
You are probably both right to some degree because the truth often lies in the middle. But there are some simple misconceptions.
1. The EU has only existed since 1993 and was created via the ‘Maastricht’ Treaty on European Union. This transformed what was a largely successful trading bloc into a political body with a view to being some kind of federal governmental body. This also happens to be the same action that from this point there has been a significant increase and continuous growth across the entire EU in "euro-scepticism". One could almost say that this is the root cause of many of the EU's current problems and has resulted in a large increase in instability within may of the member countries and has by inference not brought peace.
2. Prior to 1993 there was no EU, it was actually the EEC - the European Economic Community - which had no political body or structure to speak of. It was primarily a trading body and was very successful at promoting free cross border trade between its membership. This was also the core reason for stability across the western continent. So the EEC brought peace and stability through open trade.
What is often overlooked by the pro-EU movement is the simple fact of the US military being stationed in Europe created a sphere of protection from Russian aggression which enabled Europe to rebuild its economy without the need to spend huge amounts on its military. This is very similar to what happened with Japan. Even today the European militaries are almost entirely dependent on US military assistance because they haven't had the necessary spending directed at them and there is no ability for them to "fill the holes" should the US pull out. Yes the EU may not have an option, but it would take years to do it and they would be impotent to protect against any aggressor in the interim, instead having to fall back on the French and UK nuclear deterrent.
Indeed, it would seem that the EU has undermined all the good work for peace and stability its predecessor, the EEC, created. Perhaps it will be looked back that the creation of the political body to create the EU was a step too far as it gave delusions of grandeur to may that hold its offices, though in truth only time will tell for sure what will happen.
Just for clarity. Most people that speak of the EU in the context of stability mean the EU and every Europewide initiative prior to it. Basically from the Treaty of Rome onwards.
But the question here is: How many people will you kill protecting your privacy? How many others have to die for the sake of your privacy? 1? 10? 100?
But, it's not just lives. It's the economy stupid! Without testing and contact tracing the only recourse is either to maintain social distancing or let the virus run rampant. And, either of those two options will kill the economy.
So, effective tracing and effective contact tracing will not only save lives but enable the economy to recover.
So, F your privacy!
Singapore was the poster child for how to effectively control the spread. Lots of testing and the personally identifiable contact tracing you are suggesting, where the names and addresses of those infected were available rather than private and anonymized, were some of the essential tools...
"The city-state drew international praise for its ability to blunt the spread of COVID-19 while avoiding some of the drastic containment measures seen in countries like China, Italy and Spain. But Singapore's lauded response has come into question. Last week, it enforced a partial lockdown as it struggles to contain a sharp rise in coronavirus cases.
As part of Singapore's stricter "circuit breaker" measures, it shuttered most workplaces last Tuesday. The following day, school closures went into effect for at least a month, shifting students to "full home-based learning." The government has also banned public and private social gatherings of any size, meaning residents who entertain guests face six months of jail time or a fine of up to $7,000."
"The move underscores the risks that the coronavirus poses -- even after a country has seemingly taken the necessary steps to protect itself. The semi-lockdown came after Singapore witnessed an explosion of confirmed coronavirus cases, from 106 infections on March 1 to 1,000 on April 1. Those figures indicate most infections were transmitted locally and that a growing number of cases have no known links to confirmed patients. "
So now they're sliding back a bit towards social distancing and clamping down on large parts of their society. Just when you think it's safe to get back in water you realize things are not quite so clear as you thought they were.
But France is not like Singapore, which is not like Australia, which is not like Norway, which is not like Montana, which is not like Florida. What is essential one place may be under or overkill in another. The US is almost like 50 separate countries with individual economies and Covid-19 impact, much as France has its own challenges apart from some of the rest of the EU and definitely the world at wide.
France may want, even need, to do things differently from the US, or Singapore, or Canada, or New York City. If they can use what Apple and Google have designed then great, and I doubt their citizen's in general would object to better privacy, but those two techs should not be required to modify how the system works to appease them and affect every other community and country in the world perhaps negatively. My personal opinion of course.
Yeh, some were holding Singapore up as a poster child. And they they did do some good things -- just not enough of them.
They ignored the fact that they are dependent on a large migrant population that they house in dormitory conditions that are incubators for the virus.
As for each country, state or county having "different needs": the virus doesn't care and doesn't change. It's the same virus in Kyokuk Iowa as it is New York city.
As long as we have no herd immunity, vaccine or effective treatment there is only one solution: prevent the spread of infections. You can do that by shutting everything down and telling people to hide in their houses. But at some point more efficient measures are needed and no matter how you cut it that comes down to getting the infectious people off of our streets and out of our stores. And, there is only one way to do that: Identify the infectious as quickly as possible, then identify those that they may have infected and check them too. Then quarantine the infectious in as humane a way as possible till they are no longer a danger to society.
The only differences are in political maneuvering rather than basic science.
Unfortunately I don't think you can discount the differences in each country as simply "political manoeuvring". Yes the way the virus spread is pretty primal and basic at its core which necessitates the need for mass track and trace, BUT you simply cannot discount the fact that each collective of people will respond in different ways to the methods used to limit the spread and for how long they will be happy to live under these methods. Democratic societies generally value the freedoms they live with daily over those who have never really lived with them. Consequently, the withdrawal of may of these freedoms for the sake of the pandemic will be accepted for differing periods of time. It is not politics that determines this acceptance, it is the very people of the country that determines it and this acceptance will vary dramatically from country to country via a combination of factors. Every country needs to approach this in a way that is accepted by their respective populace otherwise it just won't work, no matter what the "basic science" of it may be. As is clearly apparent in the variety of symptoms and results - there is no such thing as an average person nor a one size fits all solution.
There are effectively two strategies to deal with this current virus: Herd Immunity and Treatment. This is because the virus is far too widespread in most countries to be able to control via a "Contain" only strategy. Track and trace is critically important for "Contain", but of less importance for the other two with the exception of the management of patient flows into health systems for treatment. The simple fact we have resorted to mass lockdowns shows that the current track and trace infrastructure is not able to cope with this virus and the ability for any government to "prevent the spread of infections" for the sort of time needed to allow the virus to burn itself out is not a viable solution.
I am getting tired of people using the term "herd immunity" as if it is not a solution yet then go on to say that a vaccine is the solution. Well I have news for everyone, use of vaccines is the very definition of "herd immunity"! Immunity can be built up in a population naturally - via infection and treatment - and/or man-made - via a vaccine. The end result is essentially the same; the reduction of the R0 factor of a given infection. What we DO NOT KNOW right now is if immunity is developed naturally and if so for how long. We won't know for quite some time as more data is needed and in this instance, more data equals more infected people.
"you simply cannot discount the fact that each collective of people
will respond in different ways to the methods used to limit the spread"
Nah! People respond mostly based on the information they are given. Here in the U.S. right wing propaganda followed by our president inciting the insurrection of armed militias storming local governments in order to cast blame for his failures onto others and to try to save his upcoming election. Shameful!
"The simple fact we have resorted to mass lockdowns shows that the
current track and trace infrastructure is not able to cope with this
virus"
Again, Nah! In the U.S. it was not that "track and trace" were ineffective. It was and is that track and trace have never been implemented. Part of that problem is that its prerequisite of testing was totally, 100% bungled and is still being bungled. But then, assuming we ever get the testing debacle straightened out, tracking and tracing the infectious to get them off the streets is becoming mired in the same political and propaganda bog mentioned above.
"What we DO NOT KNOW right now is if immunity is developed naturally and if so for how long."
That is true. But it also points to the multiple failures of our public health agencies. What used to be gold standard, world class agencies have been reduced by 20 years of limited, small government attacks to empty shells that can't even copy a test that was handed to them! In this case, they have known about this virus for 5 months now but still know almost nothing about it.
The richest, most powerful, most advanced nation on earth completely failed in its management of this crisis -- and continues to fail with its leader telling people to ingest bleach to sterilize their lungs. Other countries with far fewer resources have successfully managed the identical crisis in their own countries. We need to study them and recognize what they did to succeed and what we did to fail.
The same (imperfect) EU that has brought 75 years of peace and prosperity to Europe? Remember that WWII thing caused by a fractured Europe ? The U.K. has comprehensively shot itself in the foot and damaged itself terribly economically for absurd xenophobic reasons. Also to point out that the U.K. has some of the most pervasive monitoring of its populace anywhere...it’s no beacon of privacy.
I would disagree. The EU has not brought peace. The EU itself will lead to further conflict in the future.
The USA has brought peace by having plenty of US troops and equipment stationed there ever since WWII. Russia would've walked all over the EU a long time ago if it wasn't for the protection of the US. The EU is incapable of protecting anything. The USA should pull everything out of Europe and let them fend for themselves, and we'll see how that works out. I'll grab the popcorn if and when that happens.
And the UK has not shot themselves in the foot. They were real smart to leave the EU, and it's about time that they did. The UK will be just fine on its own together with its allies. The UK does not need the EU one bit. They are a disgusting bunch, just go watch some of those videos from the European parliament. Nigel Farage owns them all.
This isn't really true. The U.S has always had a strategic interest in the EU. Without the various U.S military bases here, it would lose influence and that is what matters to the U.S government. Having Russia walking over the EU wouldn't do much for U.S influence.
If the U.S were to pull out of the EU, the EU would simply fill the holes. It would have no other option. However, if the U.S were to do that, it would find itself in a serious pickle.
75 years of peace has been through unification, not the U.S military presence. Integration and stability have brought prosperity to many nations and stability is one of the pillars of peace.
There have been challenges and there will be more and the EU has a stated goal of becoming independent on many levels. Notably in technology and there have always been moves promoting the creation of an EU wide defence force. Something the U.S clearly doesn't want to see become reality. Just like it didn't want the euro to become reality. Just like it doesn't want Huawei to have influence anywhere. The U.S wants its strategic influence tentacles in every pie.
The U.K has a long track record of outsourcing sensitive data management to U.S companies and seeing things backfire. U.S foreign policy is backfiring across the globe as more and more nations push back.
I doubt the specific issues detailed in this article have anything to do with its technological independence drive but the EU's desire to be in full control is possibly why it already has its own plans for contact tracing.
You are probably both right to some degree because the truth often lies in the middle. But there are some simple misconceptions.
1. The EU has only existed since 1993 and was created via the ‘Maastricht’ Treaty on European Union. This transformed what was a largely successful trading bloc into a political body with a view to being some kind of federal governmental body. This also happens to be the same action that from this point there has been a significant increase and continuous growth across the entire EU in "euro-scepticism". One could almost say that this is the root cause of many of the EU's current problems and has resulted in a large increase in instability within may of the member countries and has by inference not brought peace. 2. Prior to 1993 there was no EU, it was actually the EEC - the European Economic Community - which had no political body or structure to speak of. It was primarily a trading body and was very successful at promoting free cross border trade between its membership. This was also the core reason for stability across the western continent. So the EEC brought peace and stability through open trade.
What is often overlooked by the pro-EU movement is the simple fact of the US military being stationed in Europe created a sphere of protection from Russian aggression which enabled Europe to rebuild its economy without the need to spend huge amounts on its military. This is very similar to what happened with Japan. Even today the European militaries are almost entirely dependent on US military assistance because they haven't had the necessary spending directed at them and there is no ability for them to "fill the holes" should the US pull out. Yes the EU may not have an option, but it would take years to do it and they would be impotent to protect against any aggressor in the interim, instead having to fall back on the French and UK nuclear deterrent.
Indeed, it would seem that the EU has undermined all the good work for peace and stability its predecessor, the EEC, created. Perhaps it will be looked back that the creation of the political body to create the EU was a step too far as it gave delusions of grandeur to may that hold its offices, though in truth only time will tell for sure what will happen.
That's only true if you buy into the limited, small government / "all government is evil" argument of the Libertarians.
If the tracing app is in place without proper restrictions that I understand Apple and Google are proposing, it will be there forever just in case. I am sure all of the security services are lobbying very hard for this. Perpetual monitoring and our freedom and privacy go down the drain.
If the tracing app is in place without proper restrictions that I understand Apple and Google are proposing, it will be there forever just in case. I am sure all of the security services are lobbying very hard for this. Perpetual monitoring and our freedom and privacy go down the drain.
Your Freedom and privacy went down the drain when they signed the Patriot Act.
If the tracing app is in place without proper restrictions that I understand Apple and Google are proposing, it will be there forever just in case. I am sure all of the security services are lobbying very hard for this. Perpetual monitoring and our freedom and privacy go down the drain.
Your Freedom and privacy went down the drain when they signed the Patriot Act.
People respond mostly based on the information they are given. Here in the U.S. right wing propaganda followed by our president inciting the insurrection of armed militias storming local governments in order to cast blame for his failures onto others and to try to save his upcoming election. Shameful!
In 2011, Obama signed a four-year renewal of the Patriot Act, specifically provisions allowing roaming wiretaps and government searches of business records. Obama argued that the renewal was needed to protect the United States from terrorist attacks. Damn right-winger masquerading as a Democrat.....
And here you are asking for more intrusions on your privacy, saying it's all OK with you, and yet another right-winger fooling us as a Democrat? So please stop. If you are supposed to be representative of what we have to look forward to if the Administration changes it looks just as divisive, intolerant, unable to tell the entire truth or to accept any blame as the current one is.
Democrat or Republican or neither of the above, we're all in this together. Be kinder, more tolerant, more helpful. Covid doesn't care which party you belong to.
So once more back on topic: Did you see that the French concerns are now a non-starter with the German partners deciding that de-centralized data in the manner of Google/Apple is the right way to go after all. The French plan is dead in the water. I believe another poster mentioned this a page or so back. https://www.physiciansweekly.com/germany-flips-to-apple-google/
If the tracing app is in place without proper restrictions that I understand Apple and Google are proposing, it will be there forever just in case. I am sure all of the security services are lobbying very hard for this. Perpetual monitoring and our freedom and privacy go down the drain.
Your Freedom and privacy went down the drain when they signed the Patriot Act.
People respond mostly based on the information they are given. Here in the U.S. right wing propaganda followed by our president inciting the insurrection of armed militias storming local governments in order to cast blame for his failures onto others and to try to save his upcoming election. Shameful!
In 2011, Obama signed a four-year renewal of the Patriot Act, specifically provisions allowing roaming wiretaps and government searches of business records. Obama argued that the renewal was needed to protect the United States from terrorist attacks. Damn right-winger masquerading as a Democrat.....
And here you are asking for more intrusions on your privacy, saying it's all OK with you, and yet another right-winger fooling us as a Democrat? So please stop. If you are supposed to be representative of what we have to look forward to if the Administration changes it looks just as divisive, intolerant, unable to tell the entire truth or to accept any blame as the current one is.
Democrat or Republican or neither of the above, we're all in this together. Be kinder, more tolerant, more helpful. Covid doesn't care which party you belong to.
So once more back on topic: Did you see that the French concerns are now a non-starter with the German partners deciding that de-centralized data in the manner of Google/Apple is the right way to go after all. The French plan is dead in the water. I believe another poster mentioned this a page or so back. https://www.physiciansweekly.com/germany-flips-to-apple-google/
LOL... So you're not only blaming the Bush Patriot Act on Obama -- but using it's attacks on privacy to justify letting the infectious roam our streets killing even more Americans. Got it.
If the tracing app is in place without proper restrictions that I understand Apple and Google are proposing, it will be there forever just in case. I am sure all of the security services are lobbying very hard for this. Perpetual monitoring and our freedom and privacy go down the drain.
Your Freedom and privacy went down the drain when they signed the Patriot Act.
People respond mostly based on the information they are given. Here in the U.S. right wing propaganda followed by our president inciting the insurrection of armed militias storming local governments in order to cast blame for his failures onto others and to try to save his upcoming election. Shameful!
In 2011, Obama signed a four-year renewal of the Patriot Act, specifically provisions allowing roaming wiretaps and government searches of business records. Obama argued that the renewal was needed to protect the United States from terrorist attacks. Damn right-winger masquerading as a Democrat.....
And here you are asking for more intrusions on your privacy, saying it's all OK with you, and yet another right-winger fooling us as a Democrat? So please stop. If you are supposed to be representative of what we have to look forward to if the Administration changes it looks just as divisive, intolerant, unable to tell the entire truth or to accept any blame as the current one is.
Democrat or Republican or neither of the above, we're all in this together. Be kinder, more tolerant, more helpful. Covid doesn't care which party you belong to.
So once more back on topic: Did you see that the French concerns are now a non-starter with the German partners deciding that de-centralized data in the manner of Google/Apple is the right way to go after all. The French plan is dead in the water. I believe another poster mentioned this a page or so back. https://www.physiciansweekly.com/germany-flips-to-apple-google/
LOL... So you're not only blaming the Bush Patriot Act on Obama -- but using it's attacks on privacy to justify letting the infectious roam our streets killing even more Americans. Got it.
The same (imperfect) EU that has brought 75 years of peace and prosperity to Europe? Remember that WWII thing caused by a fractured Europe ? The U.K. has comprehensively shot itself in the foot and damaged itself terribly economically for absurd xenophobic reasons. Also to point out that the U.K. has some of the most pervasive monitoring of its populace anywhere...it’s no beacon of privacy.
I would disagree. The EU has not brought peace. The EU itself will lead to further conflict in the future.
The USA has brought peace by having plenty of US troops and equipment stationed there ever since WWII. Russia would've walked all over the EU a long time ago if it wasn't for the protection of the US. The EU is incapable of protecting anything. The USA should pull everything out of Europe and let them fend for themselves, and we'll see how that works out. I'll grab the popcorn if and when that happens.
And the UK has not shot themselves in the foot. They were real smart to leave the EU, and it's about time that they did. The UK will be just fine on its own together with its allies. The UK does not need the EU one bit. They are a disgusting bunch, just go watch some of those videos from the European parliament. Nigel Farage owns them all.
This isn't really true. The U.S has always had a strategic interest in the EU. Without the various U.S military bases here, it would lose influence and that is what matters to the U.S government. Having Russia walking over the EU wouldn't do much for U.S influence.
If the U.S were to pull out of the EU, the EU would simply fill the holes. It would have no other option. However, if the U.S were to do that, it would find itself in a serious pickle.
75 years of peace has been through unification, not the U.S military presence. Integration and stability have brought prosperity to many nations and stability is one of the pillars of peace.
There have been challenges and there will be more and the EU has a stated goal of becoming independent on many levels. Notably in technology and there have always been moves promoting the creation of an EU wide defence force. Something the U.S clearly doesn't want to see become reality. Just like it didn't want the euro to become reality. Just like it doesn't want Huawei to have influence anywhere. The U.S wants its strategic influence tentacles in every pie.
The U.K has a long track record of outsourcing sensitive data management to U.S companies and seeing things backfire. U.S foreign policy is backfiring across the globe as more and more nations push back.
I doubt the specific issues detailed in this article have anything to do with its technological independence drive but the EU's desire to be in full control is possibly why it already has its own plans for contact tracing.
You are probably both right to some degree because the truth often lies in the middle. But there are some simple misconceptions.
1. The EU has only existed since 1993 and was created via the ‘Maastricht’ Treaty on European Union. This transformed what was a largely successful trading bloc into a political body with a view to being some kind of federal governmental body. This also happens to be the same action that from this point there has been a significant increase and continuous growth across the entire EU in "euro-scepticism". One could almost say that this is the root cause of many of the EU's current problems and has resulted in a large increase in instability within may of the member countries and has by inference not brought peace.
2. Prior to 1993 there was no EU, it was actually the EEC - the European Economic Community - which had no political body or structure to speak of. It was primarily a trading body and was very successful at promoting free cross border trade between its membership. This was also the core reason for stability across the western continent. So the EEC brought peace and stability through open trade.
What is often overlooked by the pro-EU movement is the simple fact of the US military being stationed in Europe created a sphere of protection from Russian aggression which enabled Europe to rebuild its economy without the need to spend huge amounts on its military. This is very similar to what happened with Japan. Even today the European militaries are almost entirely dependent on US military assistance because they haven't had the necessary spending directed at them and there is no ability for them to "fill the holes" should the US pull out. Yes the EU may not have an option, but it would take years to do it and they would be impotent to protect against any aggressor in the interim, instead having to fall back on the French and UK nuclear deterrent.
Indeed, it would seem that the EU has undermined all the good work for peace and stability its predecessor, the EEC, created. Perhaps it will be looked back that the creation of the political body to create the EU was a step too far as it gave delusions of grandeur to may that hold its offices, though in truth only time will tell for sure what will happen.
Just for clarity. Most people that speak of the EU in the context of stability mean the EU and every Europewide initiative prior to it. Basically from the Treaty of Rome onwards.
And that is the point. The EU of today (or since 1993) is not like any of its predecessors. It is a totally different beast to the trading bloc that did bring stability. The more people understand how the EU came to be, the more educated and informed a conversation about its future can be. There are some good things about it and some bad things, but this is off topic to the article at hand. It is important to clarify that the 75 years of "peace and stability" are not necessarily associated with the EU as it is today, as the EU of today is vastly different to the ECC pre-1993.
Comments
Fines of say, a Million $ a day (or an hour) might encourage the two sides to work together. As Apple has always acknowledged, companies must obey the laws of the country it is operating in -- not the country it is headquartered in.
But have you been following the latest? From 10 days ago:
https://www.cnet.com/news/singapore-had-the-coronavirus-under-control-now-it-is-locking-down-the-country/
"The city-state drew international praise for its ability to blunt the spread of COVID-19 while avoiding some of the drastic containment measures seen in countries like China, Italy and Spain. But Singapore's lauded response has come into question. Last week, it enforced a partial lockdown as it struggles to contain a sharp rise in coronavirus cases.
As part of Singapore's stricter "circuit breaker" measures, it shuttered most workplaces last Tuesday. The following day, school closures went into effect for at least a month, shifting students to "full home-based learning." The government has also banned public and private social gatherings of any size, meaning residents who entertain guests face six months of jail time or a fine of up to $7,000."
"The move underscores the risks that the coronavirus poses -- even after a country has seemingly taken the necessary steps to protect itself. The semi-lockdown came after Singapore witnessed an explosion of confirmed coronavirus cases, from 106 infections on March 1 to 1,000 on April 1. Those figures indicate most infections were transmitted locally and that a growing number of cases have no known links to confirmed patients. "
So now they're sliding back a bit towards social distancing and clamping down on large parts of their society. Just when you think it's safe to get back in water you realize things are not quite so clear as you thought they were.
But France is not like Singapore, which is not like Australia, which is not like Norway, which is not like Montana, which is not like Florida. What is essential one place may be under or overkill in another. The US is almost like 50 separate countries with individual economies and Covid-19 impact, much as France has its own challenges apart from some of the rest of the EU and definitely the world at wide.
France may want, even need, to do things differently from the US, or Singapore, or Canada, or New York City. If they can use what Apple and Google have designed then great, and I doubt their citizen's in general would object to better privacy, but those two techs should not be required to modify how the system works to appease them and affect every other community and country in the world perhaps negatively. My personal opinion of course.
Yeh, some were holding Singapore up as a poster child. And they they did do some good things -- just not enough of them.
The only differences are in political maneuvering rather than basic science.
There can be only two responses to that: Either let the virus run rampant and kill whoever it will kill. Or start mass testing -- starting with those who face the public on a daily basis. And, then of course, trace their contacts and test them too.
With fines able to reach 20 million euros or 4% of annual revenue, it has clout, too. Only 1% of decisions have been challenged in court.
Here is the EU nine month review.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2014_2019/plmrep/COMMITTEES/LIBE/DV/2019/02-25/9_EDPB_report_EN.pdf
Unfortunately I don't think you can discount the differences in each country as simply "political manoeuvring". Yes the way the virus spread is pretty primal and basic at its core which necessitates the need for mass track and trace, BUT you simply cannot discount the fact that each collective of people will respond in different ways to the methods used to limit the spread and for how long they will be happy to live under these methods. Democratic societies generally value the freedoms they live with daily over those who have never really lived with them. Consequently, the withdrawal of may of these freedoms for the sake of the pandemic will be accepted for differing periods of time. It is not politics that determines this acceptance, it is the very people of the country that determines it and this acceptance will vary dramatically from country to country via a combination of factors. Every country needs to approach this in a way that is accepted by their respective populace otherwise it just won't work, no matter what the "basic science" of it may be. As is clearly apparent in the variety of symptoms and results - there is no such thing as an average person nor a one size fits all solution.
There are effectively two strategies to deal with this current virus: Herd Immunity and Treatment. This is because the virus is far too widespread in most countries to be able to control via a "Contain" only strategy. Track and trace is critically important for "Contain", but of less importance for the other two with the exception of the management of patient flows into health systems for treatment. The simple fact we have resorted to mass lockdowns shows that the current track and trace infrastructure is not able to cope with this virus and the ability for any government to "prevent the spread of infections" for the sort of time needed to allow the virus to burn itself out is not a viable solution.
I am getting tired of people using the term "herd immunity" as if it is not a solution yet then go on to say that a vaccine is the solution. Well I have news for everyone, use of vaccines is the very definition of "herd immunity"! Immunity can be built up in a population naturally - via infection and treatment - and/or man-made - via a vaccine. The end result is essentially the same; the reduction of the R0 factor of a given infection. What we DO NOT KNOW right now is if immunity is developed naturally and if so for how long. We won't know for quite some time as more data is needed and in this instance, more data equals more infected people.
1. The EU has only existed since 1993 and was created via the ‘Maastricht’ Treaty on European Union. This transformed what was a largely successful trading bloc into a political body with a view to being some kind of federal governmental body. This also happens to be the same action that from this point there has been a significant increase and continuous growth across the entire EU in "euro-scepticism". One could almost say that this is the root cause of many of the EU's current problems and has resulted in a large increase in instability within may of the member countries and has by inference not brought peace.
2. Prior to 1993 there was no EU, it was actually the EEC - the European Economic Community - which had no political body or structure to speak of. It was primarily a trading body and was very successful at promoting free cross border trade between its membership. This was also the core reason for stability across the western continent. So the EEC brought peace and stability through open trade.
What is often overlooked by the pro-EU movement is the simple fact of the US military being stationed in Europe created a sphere of protection from Russian aggression which enabled Europe to rebuild its economy without the need to spend huge amounts on its military. This is very similar to what happened with Japan. Even today the European militaries are almost entirely dependent on US military assistance because they haven't had the necessary spending directed at them and there is no ability for them to "fill the holes" should the US pull out. Yes the EU may not have an option, but it would take years to do it and they would be impotent to protect against any aggressor in the interim, instead having to fall back on the French and UK nuclear deterrent.
Indeed, it would seem that the EU has undermined all the good work for peace and stability its predecessor, the EEC, created. Perhaps it will be looked back that the creation of the political body to create the EU was a step too far as it gave delusions of grandeur to may that hold its offices, though in truth only time will tell for sure what will happen.
"What we DO NOT KNOW right now is if immunity is developed naturally and if so for how long."
That's only true if you buy into the limited, small government / "all government is evil" argument of the Libertarians.
Your Freedom and privacy went down the drain when they signed the Patriot Act.
And here you are asking for more intrusions on your privacy, saying it's all OK with you, and yet another right-winger fooling us as a Democrat? So please stop. If you are supposed to be representative of what we have to look forward to if the Administration changes it looks just as divisive, intolerant, unable to tell the entire truth or to accept any blame as the current one is.
Democrat or Republican or neither of the above, we're all in this together. Be kinder, more tolerant, more helpful. Covid doesn't care which party you belong to.
So once more back on topic: Did you see that the French concerns are now a non-starter with the German partners deciding that de-centralized data in the manner of Google/Apple is the right way to go after all. The French plan is dead in the water. I believe another poster mentioned this a page or so back.
https://www.physiciansweekly.com/germany-flips-to-apple-google/
LOL... So you're not only blaming the Bush Patriot Act on Obama -- but using it's attacks on privacy to justify letting the infectious roam our streets killing even more Americans. Got it.