Don't count on reports of a delayed 'iPhone 12'

Posted:
in iPhone edited December 2020
Parallel reports have all recently claimed that Apple has decided to "delay the mass production" of its upcoming "iPhone 12", but these reports don't offer any meaningful evidence that this could result in a materially late launch. Here's a look at why.

iPhone 12 renders
"iPhone 12" renders from a combination of leaked CAD designs and allegedly leaked information


Apple's plans for 2020 have certainly run into a perfect storm of challenges. The COVID-19 pandemic is introducing complications into the planning and production of new hardware and the complex component supply chain that feeds its production lines, as well as stoking a challenging global economic situation that will have a significant negative impact on everyone's sales globally.

However, these alarmist reports confidently claiming inside knowledge of Apple "delaying the mass production" of new iPhones have cautiously limited their remarks to a supposed "ramp-up" period where phones are prepared for launch, reportedly starting in July. The idea that the beginning of the "mass production ramp" of "iPhone 12" could be delayed by weeks is hardly material, even if it could be established to be true.

Apple can accelerate its subsequent pre-launch production to deliver an adequate supply to make up for a slower than usual start. In previous years, Apple has frequently boosted or shifted around its production plans in response to greater than anticipated demand for specific models. Increasing or decreasing production is an art Apple has proven to be extremely proficient at, even under challenging circumstances involving prior economic downturns or supply chain crises.

devastation that hit Japan in 2011
Apple launched iPad 2 despite the supply chain devastation that hit Japan in 2011. Source: BHPEnglish


Apple's executives have commonly noted this in the company's quarterly conference calls, specifically highlighting greater than expected demand for a particular product, or a specific model in a range of devices. There is no indication that Apple's assembly plant partners will be unable to operate at normal production volumes in the second half of this year.

Further, the pressure to build up an adequate launch supply before "iPhone 12" goes on sale is also reduced this year simply because demand is likely to be weaker than usual. Rather than racing out "iPhone 12" in a desperate bid to catch up with 5G Android handsets as these same sources had been predicting, this year's smartphone sales have already slowed significantly, and the financial impacts to potential buyers around the world will almost certainly repress peak demand.

Rather than resulting in a delayed launch that might threaten Apple to miss the holiday season entirely as some analysts have floated as a "worst-case scenario," it appears that Apple is comfortably positioned to launch "iPhone 12" as planned. Apple has done this before with previous launches and handling of previous supply chain disasters, and it can manage it because it has the resources to arrange for priority access to testing, production, and shipping services.

The same can't be said of manufacturers of lower-tier phones that were barely making a profit while the economy was thriving, and demand was reaching all-time highs. Will Samsung and Huawei continue to focus their resources on building whimsical folding prototypes that cost thousands of dollars and sell to only a tiny audience of users? Compare that to Apple, which has been selling tremendous numbers of its highest-end iPhones every year, even during cycles of economic downturn.

The recession in 2008 and its "global macroeconomic headwinds" caused many pundits to worry about Apple's prospects, given that it was just beginning to sell its new iPhone at a price significantly higher than other competing handsets that sold in large numbers. However, it wasn't Apple that was hit hardest by that recession. It was the manufacturers of lower-priced commodity products, who experienced a drop in their sales volumes that crushed their thin margins of profitability.

Similarly, the devastating economic impact of so many workers not being able to work will more severely impact budget phone makers, because economic problems are not going to be fairly spread out. As unfortunate and unfair as it is, the hardest hit will be the poor and those already struggling.

The reason why Android has a greater unit market share is not solely a result of buyer preference, it's because a lot of people can't afford an iPhone. The vast majority of Android handsets sell for very little, at an average of less than $300.

Apple is now offering a very high-quality budget phone in the new iPhone SE, priced at $399. This will be attractive to users of older iPhones and some Android users who are looking for a good phone at a good price.

The iPhone SE is significantly more than most Androids. The brunt of the financial impact will hit other phone makers harder than Apple because there is not one big market for phones. There are low-end markets, middle-tier markets, and premium markets, with buyers in each behaving differently and not jumping up and down the economic scale and not rapidly shifting between platforms.

How can anyone afford a $999 iPhone?

Over the last holiday season, Apple's product mix of phones was nearly evenly split into thirds between the middle-tier iPhone 11; the two models of iPhone 11 Pro; and all of the other iPhones it continues to sell, including iPhone XR and earlier models with a Home button. This wasn't an anomaly; Apple's sales have consistently tilted toward the high end, resulting in the average selling price of iPhones to reach nearly $800 in recent years.

Apple only has a toe in the middle-tier market. Its sales of iPhone that cost around $400 are a very small slice of its overall sales. This runs completely contrary to the media narrative that insists that nobody cares about smartphones anymore, that they are all a commodity, and that buyers all behave alike in wanting to pay as little as possible for the device they use more often than any other possession. That's not true at all.


iPhone X sales were not dissapointing as Nikkei has predicted


In fact, the same media sites pushing the idea that iPhones "might be delayed" this year-- attributed only to "people familiar with Apple's plans"-- were also using that same kind of anonymous sourcing as the basis for earlier claiming that Apple had been "slashing its production" in previous years in response to "disappointing" demand for its new iPhones. That was false, as well.

But how was it that ordinary people were buying hundreds of millions of iPhones at premium prices? In part, some of Apple's audience of buyers are people who don't really care about pricing, and for whom $999 is easy to afford. Samsung and Huawei also have some less price-conscious buyers, albeit far fewer in number.

But the bigger answer to how Apple has been selling so many expensive iPhones is that a $999 purchase that lasts two years is pretty easy to justify at $40 per month. It is even less if you consider that it will still have significant trade-in value after those two years are up. Most people are paying more than that for their mobile service.

The personal connection people have with the mobile device they carry with them most often is tied directly to how much value it brings them in terms of being able to access information, find directions, look up resources, find jobs, meet people, play games and so much more. That makes it far easier to justify the cost of regularly upgrading an iPhone. Apple's sales of expensive iPhones are far higher than its sales of similarly priced Macs or of iPads and Apple Watches that start off at much lower prices.

Despite it sounding so "reasonable," the media-stoked outrage over premium iPhone pricing is really just nonsense. Apple isn't forcing buyers to pay for increasingly expensive iPhones. In contrast, low priced iPhones have never been cheaper or of better quality. Apple has introduced new higher price tiers with features that have attracted buyers; its customers have voted with their dollars for fancier iPhones, signaling that they want to spend more if the quality is there.

The same hasn't been happening for Android makers. In fact, the trend among Androids has been a retreat to middle-tier phones around $300. Android makers have also focused on high volume but very low-value sales to emerging countries, where many users can barely afford to pay the equivalent of $99 for a phone. These markets are likely to be hit very hard by economic distress, slowing the replacement cycle and delaying purchases.

Apple's installed base won't be the hardest hit by economic turmoil

As the impact of economic turmoil caused by the current pandemic begins to unfold, it sure appears that that hardest hit will be those already struggling to justify any new purchase of any kind, rather than those who can finance a new purchase and easily afford to have the nicest phone they want while their other spending plans on vacations, restaurants, sporting events, concerts, and other discretionary spending on entertainment is curtailed by quarantines and lockdowns.

Apple's segment of the market that has been paying an average of nearly $800 for new iPhones, including almost a third of its buyers who sprung for a $999 and up iPhone 11 Pro over the last quarter, are the least likely to be materially affected by a temporary economic downturn occurring this spring.

That suggests a continuation of trends we've already seen that show that people overall are spending much less on many things while continuing to spend about the same -- or more -- on consumer electronics and related purchases. Being stuck at home has reinforced the value of having access to remote learning, video communications, entertainment, and social interaction that many people get from their smartphone or iPad.

Apple has also been perfectly positioned to benefit from increased App Store sales of games and productivity apps as users are forced to work at home and entertain themselves in isolation. The timing of all of Apple's new Services offerings seems brilliant in retrospect, with Apple Card, TV+, News+, and Apple Arcade all reaching solid completion just prior to the world locking down with pandemic restrictions.

So while many are expecting and perhaps even hoping that the COVID-19 pandemic will be ruinous to Apple, it's useful to recall how well Apple performed in 2008, and in particular how well it performed in comparison to its peers. Apple would rather have the global economy humming along without these problems, but it sure appears to be far better positioned than any other consumer tech company.

Further, unlike companies that were barely making money before the pandemic struck and are now unable to sell or offer much of anything, Apple has an installed base of nearly a billion users who are already signed up for a variety of ongoing subscriptions. And while many of its retail stores are closed, it's still easy to order new hardware. Apple didn't even have much difficulty in attracting attention to its launch of a series of new products over the last few weeks of the pandemic. Other companies can't claim that.

Shifting optics of "iPhone 12" launch

Over the last several holiday seasons, the same sources that are now trying to suggest that "iPhone 12" might be delayed were working to suggest that cheaper phones from Huawei and others were causing buyers to shift to Android. They have even promoted the idea that buyers in China were actively boycotting iPhones out of patriotism. But these supposed trends didn't materialize as predicted.

Instead, Apple's statements on the matter were correct: buyers were delaying their purchases because of economic uncertainty and unfavorable currency exchange rates. When Apple and its carrier and retail partners introduced more favorable pricing with lower taxes and new options for financing, Apple's sales in China rebounded, even despite a big push by Huawei to ship more phones into the domestic Chinese market to make up for slower sales elsewhere.

Economic uncertainty and the increasingly strong dollar will continue to work against Apple and make its business challenging. But the pandemic also offers a reprieve from the pressure to constantly sell more iPhones than the previous year. Simply performing as well as possible will be more acceptable this year given the circumstances. Additionally, it will set up Apple with an even more favorable comparison next year, once the world begins to get a better handle on how to cope with pandemics, even if the novel coronavirus continues to come back seasonally.

So rather than being seen as a do-or-die "supercycle" that is entirely dependent on 5G or Apple's LiDAR or some other feature, this year's launch of "iPhone 12" has the relaxed pressure to simply be a success for being held on time.

In parallel, the recent launch of iPhone SE means that Apple will be attracting increased numbers of upgrades from older phones and from Android users, an impact that might dilute its average selling price, but will likely increase its unit volumes. Because so many market groups focus on unit volumes over the more important revenues and size of the installed base, this could further blunt negativity directed at Apple's lower sales.

In reducing the expectations of Apple's "iPhone 12" launch, it will be incrementally easier for Apple to bring its new 5G phone to market and begin rolling out an installed base of devices using A14 chips and LiDAR sensors capable of enhancing augmented reality features. Any deferred purchases will very likely shift to the next iPhone cycle, rather than shifting to Android, just as we saw over the last two years of economic uncertainty focused within China.

Apple's "iPhone 12" launch will also be supported by mobile carriers globally who have been working to roll out initial 5G coverage. Because Apple's installed base of buyers represents the cream of the market-- users who are most likely to spend more for faster mobile data service-- carriers will continue to promote iPhones out of their own interest, beyond that already contractually obligated by Apple.

Further, retailers hoping to juice their holiday sales after a disastrous year will no doubt be promoting Apple products just as they have in previous years, knowing that getting people in the door to buy an iPhone or iPad will likely also result in other sales. This helps to clarify why Apple won't be casually delaying its "iPhone 12" launch into 2021 -- it's not really an option.

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 16
    dedgeckodedgecko Posts: 169member
    Spot on DED!

    I still don’t believe Apple is dropping a 5G handset this year. The infrastructure is still lacking in major cities with large populations of premium smartphone purchases.

    Also, has anyone addressed why so many rumor mills keep using iPhone “12”?  Historically it’ll be an “S” model, so iPhone “11s” or simply the “next iPhone” would be closer to reality. 
    lkruppWTimbermanjony0lolliver
  • Reply 2 of 16
    wood1208wood1208 Posts: 2,921member
    Eventually 5G will be every where and people will buy into but now not much enthusiasm for 5G devices. About Apple's iPhone 12; WSJ, Apple Delays Mass Production of 2020 Flagship iPhones. The COVID-19 have slowed down people's enthusiasm,Carriers 5G expansion and manufacturer's 5G devices release.


  • Reply 3 of 16
    Modularity. (Hat tip to Federico Viticci). That's the key to any reasonable view of 21st Century Apple's strategic decision-making. Or maybe we should call it Apple Everywhere. The concept of convergence never made much sense to me with respect to computing devices, especially as practiced by Microsoft. A tablet running Windows? Heaven forfend! Latter-day Apple, i.e., Apple after the return of SJ, has always had the right idea, and has always been very aggressive about pushing it, even at the risk of becoming a tech industry laughingstock. What idea was that? Simply put, it was this: to the extent that the current state of technology permits, the use case determines the form factor. At the core of this future strategy is the iPad Pro, the clever chameleon of computing devices. What you can't do on the iPad Pro with the appropriate combination of accessories (Apple Pencil, Smart Keyboard Cover, Magic Keyboard Cover, third party stand combined with bluetooth keyboard and pointing device of your choice) you can do with your Mac -- or your iPhone, or your Apple Watch -- and be confident that either AirDrop or iCloud will be able to store/transfer the appropriate data types to other Apple devices, or to export them to non-Apple platforms as needed.

    This is the way to go folks. DED is right to be bullish about Apple's future. I've been on board since 1984, and I say that the marvels have only just begun. 
    Beatsjony0
  • Reply 4 of 16
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 10,557member
    wood1208 said:
    Eventually 5G will be every where and people will buy into but now not much enthusiasm for 5G devices. About Apple's iPhone 12; WSJ, Apple Delays Mass Production of 2020 Flagship iPhones. The COVID-19 have slowed down people's enthusiasm,Carriers 5G expansion and manufacturer's 5G devices release.


    For the average cellphone user there will never be the need to buy into 5G. Bandwidth really doesn’t matter on a mobile phone and 4G LTE is perfectly fine for almost all smartphone users. Add to that the fact that the carriers are going to charge a premium for 5G service and you’ll be left with gamers and neckbeards as the 5G market. I know I will never buy into 5G on my iPhone. 5G as fixed wireless broadband for the home or business is what I would buy but it will cost an arm and a leg for even moderate bandwidth. Most of us will be fat, dumb, and happy in LTE land. Just my opinion.
    edited April 2020 jony0tmay
  • Reply 5 of 16
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 10,557member
    I like the way Mr. Dilger goes after the tech news media and rubs their noses in their own shit reporting.
    WTimbermanBeatsjony0
  • Reply 6 of 16
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 13,043member
    lkrupp said:
    I like the way Mr. Dilger goes after the tech news media and rubs their noses in their own shit reporting.
    Yeah I also appreciate DED's column -- challenging the often dubious assumptions of the rest of the tech media/pundits, holding their feet to the fire, etc. Not many do it. DED, PED, and Macalope have made a profession of it. 
    WTimbermanjony0lolliver
  • Reply 7 of 16
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 10,557member
    lkrupp said:
    I like the way Mr. Dilger goes after the tech news media and rubs their noses in their own shit reporting.
    Yeah I also appreciate DED's column -- challenging the often dubious assumptions of the rest of the tech media/pundits, holding their feet to the fire, etc. Not many do it. DED, PED, and Macalope have made a profession of it. 
    The Macalope is my god and the salvation of Macdom. 
  • Reply 8 of 16
    DAalsethDAalseth Posts: 2,966member
    lkrupp said:
    wood1208 said:
    Eventually 5G will be every where and people will buy into but now not much enthusiasm for 5G devices. About Apple's iPhone 12; WSJ, Apple Delays Mass Production of 2020 Flagship iPhones. The COVID-19 have slowed down people's enthusiasm,Carriers 5G expansion and manufacturer's 5G devices release.


    For the average cellphone user there will never be the need to buy into 5G. Bandwidth really doesn’t matter on a mobile phone and 4G LTE is perfectly fine for almost all smartphone users. Add to that the fact that the carriers are going to charge a premium for 5G service and you’ll be left with gamers and neckbeards as the 5G market. I know I will never buy into 5G on my iPhone. 5G as fixed wireless broadband for the home or business is what I would buy but it will cost an arm and a leg for even moderate bandwidth. Most of us will be fat, dumb, and happy in LTE land. Just my opinion.
    I agree. Low frequency 5G is barely better than LTE. mm5G is so short range and lossy through buildings, trees, heavy rain, that it won't ever be usable in most areas. 5G just won't be a feature that ever makes a tinkers damn bit of difference to a lot of people. That said however, at some point 5G phones will be the only thing available. I got an 11 last November and in 4+ years when I replace it I expect the next one will be a "5G" phone. I don't expect to see the slightest difference in performance though. Also by then I don't expect a premium for 5G as that will be the standard. By then they'll be talking about 6G.
    tmay
  • Reply 9 of 16
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,600member
    I don’t know. I don’t see anything he’s saying here, in this long and convoluted article, that directly, and correctly contradicts reports that OEMs are stating about Apple requesting drawn out production, and production reductions. At this point, we just don’t know. Daniel knows nothing more than what has been reported, and he’s guessing as much as anyone, but with a desire to have things seem ok. I’m more willing to wait and see how it plays out, if some things are delayed, it doesn’t really matter, as people will wait a couple of months, which is all anyone is talking about. We’re due for new phones this year, and because of our Verizon timing, we don’t upgrade until December anyway. If we have to wait until January, it’s really not a big deal. In addition, qualcomm is working on an third generation 5G modem and antennas, whic is expected to arrive late this year, too lat to be included in apple phones this year. If apple delays, possibly we’ll see one of these in a phone after all this year, or early next year instead of last next year. So there could be a benefit to a delay. People’s worlds shouldn’t revolve around update time. There are more important things to be concerned about right now.
    edited April 2020 gatorguy
  • Reply 10 of 16
    May I ask how this statement is qualified?
     Apple's segment of the market that has been paying an average of nearly $800 for new iPhones, including almost a third of its buyers who sprung for a $999 and up iPhone 11 Pro over the last quarter, are the least likely to be materially affected by a temporary economic downturn occurring this spring.”

    Is this based on empirical analysis, or heuristics? 
    Is there a correlation between the job security or working arrangements for those that buy high end Apple phones? Or, is there relatively inelastic demand for high end iPhones, for whatever reason?
  • Reply 11 of 16
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,965member
    DAalseth said:
    lkrupp said:
    wood1208 said:
    Eventually 5G will be every where and people will buy into but now not much enthusiasm for 5G devices. About Apple's iPhone 12; WSJ, Apple Delays Mass Production of 2020 Flagship iPhones. The COVID-19 have slowed down people's enthusiasm,Carriers 5G expansion and manufacturer's 5G devices release.


    For the average cellphone user there will never be the need to buy into 5G. Bandwidth really doesn’t matter on a mobile phone and 4G LTE is perfectly fine for almost all smartphone users. Add to that the fact that the carriers are going to charge a premium for 5G service and you’ll be left with gamers and neckbeards as the 5G market. I know I will never buy into 5G on my iPhone. 5G as fixed wireless broadband for the home or business is what I would buy but it will cost an arm and a leg for even moderate bandwidth. Most of us will be fat, dumb, and happy in LTE land. Just my opinion.
    I agree. Low frequency 5G is barely better than LTE. mm5G is so short range and lossy through buildings, trees, heavy rain, that it won't ever be usable in most areas. 5G just won't be a feature that ever makes a tinkers damn bit of difference to a lot of people. That said however, at some point 5G phones will be the only thing available. I got an 11 last November and in 4+ years when I replace it I expect the next one will be a "5G" phone. I don't expect to see the slightest difference in performance though. Also by then I don't expect a premium for 5G as that will be the standard. By then they'll be talking about 6G.
    5G offers more speed than 4G LTE. If you are not seeing that, something is wrong in the setup. mmWave is for high density cases. It was never planned for anything else. 

    In both cases you get benefits other than speed. Lower latency. Better, more stable connections. Network slicing (improved security for example). That is just phone related although, as with everything, the implementation has to be good. That means good antenna designs on the handset and capable, well configured hardware on the towers. If you are dependant on just one carrier and it is skimping on what it offers, you might run into issues. 

    However, a phone is just part of the puzzle. 5G is destined for industrial uses, consumer uses and crossover uses. 5G Chipsets for the automobile industry have already shipped to manufacturers for testing and inclusion for future cars. 

    Right now, Chinese hospitals are pumping lung scans into cloud AI via 5G to assist in diagnosing and controlling COVID-19. Intra hospital video feeds have been implemented over 5G too. It will have massive uses in manufacturing, energy, science, leisure and health. 

    5G gaming services already exist. 

    Two years ago I was involved in a project to optimise fuel consumption in the aviation industry which was planned to use 5G. Still in development as the red tape involved in getting third party ICT hardware into a cockpit is endless but you have to start somewhere.





  • Reply 12 of 16
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,453member
    avon b7 said:
    DAalseth said:
    lkrupp said:
    wood1208 said:
    Eventually 5G will be every where and people will buy into but now not much enthusiasm for 5G devices. About Apple's iPhone 12; WSJ, Apple Delays Mass Production of 2020 Flagship iPhones. The COVID-19 have slowed down people's enthusiasm,Carriers 5G expansion and manufacturer's 5G devices release.


    For the average cellphone user there will never be the need to buy into 5G. Bandwidth really doesn’t matter on a mobile phone and 4G LTE is perfectly fine for almost all smartphone users. Add to that the fact that the carriers are going to charge a premium for 5G service and you’ll be left with gamers and neckbeards as the 5G market. I know I will never buy into 5G on my iPhone. 5G as fixed wireless broadband for the home or business is what I would buy but it will cost an arm and a leg for even moderate bandwidth. Most of us will be fat, dumb, and happy in LTE land. Just my opinion.
    I agree. Low frequency 5G is barely better than LTE. mm5G is so short range and lossy through buildings, trees, heavy rain, that it won't ever be usable in most areas. 5G just won't be a feature that ever makes a tinkers damn bit of difference to a lot of people. That said however, at some point 5G phones will be the only thing available. I got an 11 last November and in 4+ years when I replace it I expect the next one will be a "5G" phone. I don't expect to see the slightest difference in performance though. Also by then I don't expect a premium for 5G as that will be the standard. By then they'll be talking about 6G.
    Two years ago I was involved in a project to optimise fuel consumption in the aviation industry which was planned to use 5G. Still in development as the red tape involved in getting third party ICT hardware into a cockpit is endless but you have to start somewhere.





    Why would anyone need 5G in a cockpit? The entire aircraft is wired for data acquisition and control, many and various radios, and regulatory agencies are not friendly to non certified operations, which is basically what your project was attempting to do. 

    More to the point, technological advances in aircraft engines (CFM LEAP), engine controls, and composite airframes (Boeing 787) are where the fuel savings occur.

    The company that I manufacturer housing has been building mmwave amplifiers for the U.S. military at up 10 GHZ, so in essence, the only advantage of 5G is just a new level of protocols for operation over current and future telecom hardware.

    You hype 5G like it is a panacea for every problem, but in essence, it's just a continuation of the evolution of telecom networks under 4G, just as 6G will be a decade from now.

    The biggest advance for modern automobiles has been the continuous evolution of the radial tire, that has allowed designers to improve handling, ride, and best of all, maximize power to the pavement. Radial tires brought a disruption to the automobile industry, but 5G just continues an ongoing evolution.
    melgross
  • Reply 13 of 16
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,584member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    DAalseth said:
    lkrupp said:
    wood1208 said:
    Eventually 5G will be every where and people will buy into but now not much enthusiasm for 5G devices. About Apple's iPhone 12; WSJ, Apple Delays Mass Production of 2020 Flagship iPhones. The COVID-19 have slowed down people's enthusiasm,Carriers 5G expansion and manufacturer's 5G devices release.


    For the average cellphone user there will never be the need to buy into 5G. Bandwidth really doesn’t matter on a mobile phone and 4G LTE is perfectly fine for almost all smartphone users. Add to that the fact that the carriers are going to charge a premium for 5G service and you’ll be left with gamers and neckbeards as the 5G market. I know I will never buy into 5G on my iPhone. 5G as fixed wireless broadband for the home or business is what I would buy but it will cost an arm and a leg for even moderate bandwidth. Most of us will be fat, dumb, and happy in LTE land. Just my opinion.
    I agree. Low frequency 5G is barely better than LTE. mm5G is so short range and lossy through buildings, trees, heavy rain, that it won't ever be usable in most areas. 5G just won't be a feature that ever makes a tinkers damn bit of difference to a lot of people. That said however, at some point 5G phones will be the only thing available. I got an 11 last November and in 4+ years when I replace it I expect the next one will be a "5G" phone. I don't expect to see the slightest difference in performance though. Also by then I don't expect a premium for 5G as that will be the standard. By then they'll be talking about 6G.
    Two years ago I was involved in a project to optimise fuel consumption in the aviation industry which was planned to use 5G. Still in development as the red tape involved in getting third party ICT hardware into a cockpit is endless but you have to start somewhere.





    Why would anyone need 5G in a cockpit? The entire aircraft is wired for data acquisition and control, many and various radios, and regulatory agencies are not friendly to non certified operations, which is basically what your project was attempting to do.
    TMay, there is an ongoing project using a whole lotta datapoints distributed via 5G (and 4G) for optimizing aircraft systems including the fuel usage Avon referred to. I think if you do a search using the terms "Aircraft fuel optimize 5G" you can find some references to it. I didn't spend a lot of time looking into it. 
  • Reply 14 of 16
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,965member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    DAalseth said:
    lkrupp said:
    wood1208 said:
    Eventually 5G will be every where and people will buy into but now not much enthusiasm for 5G devices. About Apple's iPhone 12; WSJ, Apple Delays Mass Production of 2020 Flagship iPhones. The COVID-19 have slowed down people's enthusiasm,Carriers 5G expansion and manufacturer's 5G devices release.


    For the average cellphone user there will never be the need to buy into 5G. Bandwidth really doesn’t matter on a mobile phone and 4G LTE is perfectly fine for almost all smartphone users. Add to that the fact that the carriers are going to charge a premium for 5G service and you’ll be left with gamers and neckbeards as the 5G market. I know I will never buy into 5G on my iPhone. 5G as fixed wireless broadband for the home or business is what I would buy but it will cost an arm and a leg for even moderate bandwidth. Most of us will be fat, dumb, and happy in LTE land. Just my opinion.
    I agree. Low frequency 5G is barely better than LTE. mm5G is so short range and lossy through buildings, trees, heavy rain, that it won't ever be usable in most areas. 5G just won't be a feature that ever makes a tinkers damn bit of difference to a lot of people. That said however, at some point 5G phones will be the only thing available. I got an 11 last November and in 4+ years when I replace it I expect the next one will be a "5G" phone. I don't expect to see the slightest difference in performance though. Also by then I don't expect a premium for 5G as that will be the standard. By then they'll be talking about 6G.
    Two years ago I was involved in a project to optimise fuel consumption in the aviation industry which was planned to use 5G. Still in development as the red tape involved in getting third party ICT hardware into a cockpit is endless but you have to start somewhere.





    Why would anyone need 5G in a cockpit? The entire aircraft is wired for data acquisition and control, many and various radios, and regulatory agencies are not friendly to non certified operations, which is basically what your project was attempting to do. 

    More to the point, technological advances in aircraft engines (CFM LEAP), engine controls, and composite airframes (Boeing 787) are where the fuel savings occur.

    The company that I manufacturer housing has been building mmwave amplifiers for the U.S. military at up 10 GHZ, so in essence, the only advantage of 5G is just a new level of protocols for operation over current and future telecom hardware.

    You hype 5G like it is a panacea for every problem, but in essence, it's just a continuation of the evolution of telecom networks under 4G, just as 6G will be a decade from now.

    The biggest advance for modern automobiles has been the continuous evolution of the radial tire, that has allowed designers to improve handling, ride, and best of all, maximize power to the pavement. Radial tires brought a disruption to the automobile industry, but 5G just continues an ongoing evolution.
    Fuel savings are not limited to the aircraft. Savings can be made all over the place and small improvements in efficiencies can lead to huge savings elsewhere. 

    The solution involved IoT, Big Data and ML and was for airlines, not aircraft manufacturers. 

    Panaceas don't exist. Foundational technologies do and 5G is one of them. What you build on the foundation marks the difference and 4G does not have the capacity to do what 5G can. 

    https://www.itweb.co.za/content/wbrpOMgYpwwvDLZn

    That WiFi 6 project is powered by 5G.

    Energy savings? 

    https://www.gsma.com/gsmaeurope/news/5g-re-and-climate-action/

    Oil and Gas? 

    https://ww2.frost.com/frost-perspectives/5g-a-critical-enabler-for-digitalization-in-oil-and-gas-emerging-use-cases-and-opportunities/

    The list is basically endless and those who bring enablement to market first will obviously get a commercial foothold in new solutions. That is why China and the EU are putting so much emphasis on getting 5G to market and developing solutions. And why Trump wants to slow both of them down. 


    edited April 2020
  • Reply 15 of 16
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,453member
    gatorguy said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    DAalseth said:
    lkrupp said:
    wood1208 said:
    Eventually 5G will be every where and people will buy into but now not much enthusiasm for 5G devices. About Apple's iPhone 12; WSJ, Apple Delays Mass Production of 2020 Flagship iPhones. The COVID-19 have slowed down people's enthusiasm,Carriers 5G expansion and manufacturer's 5G devices release.


    For the average cellphone user there will never be the need to buy into 5G. Bandwidth really doesn’t matter on a mobile phone and 4G LTE is perfectly fine for almost all smartphone users. Add to that the fact that the carriers are going to charge a premium for 5G service and you’ll be left with gamers and neckbeards as the 5G market. I know I will never buy into 5G on my iPhone. 5G as fixed wireless broadband for the home or business is what I would buy but it will cost an arm and a leg for even moderate bandwidth. Most of us will be fat, dumb, and happy in LTE land. Just my opinion.
    I agree. Low frequency 5G is barely better than LTE. mm5G is so short range and lossy through buildings, trees, heavy rain, that it won't ever be usable in most areas. 5G just won't be a feature that ever makes a tinkers damn bit of difference to a lot of people. That said however, at some point 5G phones will be the only thing available. I got an 11 last November and in 4+ years when I replace it I expect the next one will be a "5G" phone. I don't expect to see the slightest difference in performance though. Also by then I don't expect a premium for 5G as that will be the standard. By then they'll be talking about 6G.
    Two years ago I was involved in a project to optimise fuel consumption in the aviation industry which was planned to use 5G. Still in development as the red tape involved in getting third party ICT hardware into a cockpit is endless but you have to start somewhere.





    Why would anyone need 5G in a cockpit? The entire aircraft is wired for data acquisition and control, many and various radios, and regulatory agencies are not friendly to non certified operations, which is basically what your project was attempting to do.
    TMay, there is an ongoing project using a whole lotta datapoints distributed via 5G (and 4G) for optimizing aircraft systems including the fuel usage Avon referred to. I think if you do a search using the terms "Aircraft fuel optimize 5G" you can find some references to it. I didn't spend a lot of time looking into it. 
    5G in the cockpit isn't a requirement. There are already aviation radio systems that have the bandwidth and don't use 5G protocol, and 5G would need to be ubiquitous and in range of the aircraft to be useful. I get that companies would want to use 5G radio for reasons of cost, but 5G will be very sparse throughout the world for many years to come.

    Here's one that I found based on your criteria;

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/oliverwyman/2018/07/20/new-technology-may-help-airlines-cut-pricey-fuel-consumption-and-meet-environmental-regulations/#792ba19f0769

    "Increasingly, powerful SatCom communications, as well as the ascent of 4G and 5G communication links, make a dynamic approach possible – along with ground stations capable of re-calculating and optimizing an airline’s entire airborne fleet based on extracted and transmitted information. With these dynamic flight path optimization systems, a continual, circular data flow is created: The aircraft collects information on weather conditions and the status of its systems and sends it to the ground station. The ground station re-calculates the aircraft’s optimal height, speed and path based on the new information from the plane, as well as from external sources, such as weather forecasters, air traffic controllers, and even other aircraft.

    The optimized flight path, plus the latest weather updates, are then sent back to the aircraft, and are fed directly into the aircraft’s flight management systems. Finally, after coordination with air traffic control, the pilot adjusts the new recommended flight path. Admittedly, one potential constraint on savings may be air traffic control’s ability to accommodate short-term changes, although presumably technology will also eventually “optimize” that process as well."


    I quite understand the big data and ML part, but don't see how 5G is germane to the system. Most flights won't be in contact with 5G base stations for any length of time, but SATCOM, UHF, and VHF radios already provide continuous communication. Consuming a bit more bandwidth to upload and download weather data is already within the scope of SATCOM worldwide. 

    https://www.wired.com/2015/01/why-we-dont-need-real-time-flight-tracking/

    Some aviation porn;


    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/33227/this-supercut-of-the-blue-angels-and-thunderbirds-america-strong-flyover-is-a-must-watch

    edited April 2020
  • Reply 16 of 16
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,965member
    tmay said:
    gatorguy said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    DAalseth said:
    lkrupp said:
    wood1208 said:
    Eventually 5G will be every where and people will buy into but now not much enthusiasm for 5G devices. About Apple's iPhone 12; WSJ, Apple Delays Mass Production of 2020 Flagship iPhones. The COVID-19 have slowed down people's enthusiasm,Carriers 5G expansion and manufacturer's 5G devices release.


    For the average cellphone user there will never be the need to buy into 5G. Bandwidth really doesn’t matter on a mobile phone and 4G LTE is perfectly fine for almost all smartphone users. Add to that the fact that the carriers are going to charge a premium for 5G service and you’ll be left with gamers and neckbeards as the 5G market. I know I will never buy into 5G on my iPhone. 5G as fixed wireless broadband for the home or business is what I would buy but it will cost an arm and a leg for even moderate bandwidth. Most of us will be fat, dumb, and happy in LTE land. Just my opinion.
    I agree. Low frequency 5G is barely better than LTE. mm5G is so short range and lossy through buildings, trees, heavy rain, that it won't ever be usable in most areas. 5G just won't be a feature that ever makes a tinkers damn bit of difference to a lot of people. That said however, at some point 5G phones will be the only thing available. I got an 11 last November and in 4+ years when I replace it I expect the next one will be a "5G" phone. I don't expect to see the slightest difference in performance though. Also by then I don't expect a premium for 5G as that will be the standard. By then they'll be talking about 6G.
    Two years ago I was involved in a project to optimise fuel consumption in the aviation industry which was planned to use 5G. Still in development as the red tape involved in getting third party ICT hardware into a cockpit is endless but you have to start somewhere.





    Why would anyone need 5G in a cockpit? The entire aircraft is wired for data acquisition and control, many and various radios, and regulatory agencies are not friendly to non certified operations, which is basically what your project was attempting to do.
    TMay, there is an ongoing project using a whole lotta datapoints distributed via 5G (and 4G) for optimizing aircraft systems including the fuel usage Avon referred to. I think if you do a search using the terms "Aircraft fuel optimize 5G" you can find some references to it. I didn't spend a lot of time looking into it. 
    5G in the cockpit isn't a requirement. There are already aviation radio systems that have the bandwidth and don't use 5G protocol, and 5G would need to be ubiquitous and in range of the aircraft to be useful. I get that companies would want to use 5G radio for reasons of cost, but 5G will be very sparse throughout the world for many years to come.

    Here's one that I found based on your criteria;

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/oliverwyman/2018/07/20/new-technology-may-help-airlines-cut-pricey-fuel-consumption-and-meet-environmental-regulations/#792ba19f0769

    "Increasingly, powerful SatCom communications, as well as the ascent of 4G and 5G communication links, make a dynamic approach possible – along with ground stations capable of re-calculating and optimizing an airline’s entire airborne fleet based on extracted and transmitted information. With these dynamic flight path optimization systems, a continual, circular data flow is created: The aircraft collects information on weather conditions and the status of its systems and sends it to the ground station. The ground station re-calculates the aircraft’s optimal height, speed and path based on the new information from the plane, as well as from external sources, such as weather forecasters, air traffic controllers, and even other aircraft.

    The optimized flight path, plus the latest weather updates, are then sent back to the aircraft, and are fed directly into the aircraft’s flight management systems. Finally, after coordination with air traffic control, the pilot adjusts the new recommended flight path. Admittedly, one potential constraint on savings may be air traffic control’s ability to accommodate short-term changes, although presumably technology will also eventually “optimize” that process as well."


    I quite understand the big data and ML part, but don't see how 5G is germane to the system. Most flights won't be in contact with 5G base stations for any length of time, but SATCOM, UHF, and VHF radios already provide continuous communication. Consuming a bit more bandwidth to upload and download weather data is already within the scope of SATCOM worldwide. 

    https://www.wired.com/2015/01/why-we-dont-need-real-time-flight-tracking/

    Some aviation porn;


    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/33227/this-supercut-of-the-blue-angels-and-thunderbirds-america-strong-flyover-is-a-must-watch

    The system was not for use in the air. It was a propietaty hardware element that required access to the aircraft's data buses. Information was to be recorded in blockchain registries and transmitted back for analysis.

    The airline industry is entrenched in extremely old technologies. Even today, almost a third of airline invoices are paid without any type of verification.

    We are talking about an industry where margins are so low that scraping back pennies quickly adds up. 

    It takes about 5 million euros per plane, per year to keep a typical Airbus aircraft operational. 

    Hyper management of fuel consumption is an area where big savings can be made but it requires some seriously high tech backbone infrastructure to pull off. 
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