Students failing college AP test due to unsupported HEIC iPhone photo format

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 41
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 9,874member
    If you advertise "It just works", it seem seems like you kinda need to make sure that it "works'.  

    It's this type of thing that frustrated my grandson so he asked me to install Windows on his new MacBook Air.   He just didn't want the hassle. 
    elijahg
  • Reply 22 of 41
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    If you advertise "It just works", it seem seems like you kinda need to make sure that it "works'.  

    It's this type of thing that frustrated my grandson so he asked me to install Windows on his new MacBook Air.   He just didn't want the hassle. 
    It does work. Apple is obviously not responsible for a crappy website that is poorly made.
    jony0pscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 41
    I can tell you that as a web developer, it is MY responsibility that I handle usability, that I had compatibility, and that I handle the edge cases. I can't be asked to think of every edge case (that isn't reasonable), but when a bug report comes across my desk saying that there are issues doing simple uploading of a file and it is causing the test to timeout, that becomes a high priority. Hell, I find it completely inexcusable that they did not offer any kind of feedback if the file didn't upload (that is just basic common sense, sending back a 400+ error and handling the message as a result of the AJAX request).

    So, while some people like to try to make sure everything is Apple's fault (and you people know who you are); this isn't even close to their fault. The codec is available, and it can be converted from HEIC to JPG if that is a requirement (Here is one using GOLANG: https://github.com/jdeng/goheif; literally took 5 seconds to find it), so there really is no excuse on their part.

    I would also say that this sort of thing happened before when PNG first started to come onto the scene, and people flipped tables about that one as well.
    GG1pscooter63fastasleepwatto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 41
    entropysentropys Posts: 3,011member
    I would hardly call an iPhone an “edge case”.
    It most commonly used camera in the world.just sayin’.

    jony0muthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 41
    DAalsethDAalseth Posts: 1,628member
    Eric_WVGG said:
    > As it turns out, the problem is the iPhone — and some newer Android phones as well.

    NO. It is absolutely the responsibility of the test makers to continually evaluate new devices for ongoing functionality. It is ludicrous to expect Apple or Google or Microsoft to test ongoing compatibility with the hundreds of millions of apps in the world, just impossible, so the burden sadly must be on app makers to stay current with this shit.

    Lots of students are probably angry at Apple right now. That anger is displaced. This is on the test makers and the notoriously poor education tech sector.

    To re-iterate: the problem is a test maker that hasn't bothered two check if their web app works with iPhones for three years. Period.
    I'd put as much on the students that didn't check to make sure what formats were accepted and verify that's what they were sending. 
    baconstangelijahg
  • Reply 26 of 41
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 11,396member
    andyring said:

    And to say "the problem is a test maker that hasn't bothered to check if their web app works with iPhones for three years. Period." is incredibly disingenuous and, quite frankly, shows your blatant ignorance. This is happening in large part due to the COVID garbage. 
    It’s neither disingenuous nor ignorant. Web app developers not testing a their app with the #1 smartphone in the world is bananas. 
    muthuk_vanalingampscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 41
    jony0jony0 Posts: 344member
    DAalseth said:
    Eric_WVGG said:
    > As it turns out, the problem is the iPhone — and some newer Android phones as well.

    NO. It is absolutely the responsibility of the test makers to continually evaluate new devices for ongoing functionality. It is ludicrous to expect Apple or Google or Microsoft to test ongoing compatibility with the hundreds of millions of apps in the world, just impossible, so the burden sadly must be on app makers to stay current with this shit.

    Lots of students are probably angry at Apple right now. That anger is displaced. This is on the test makers and the notoriously poor education tech sector.

    To re-iterate: the problem is a test maker that hasn't bothered two check if their web app works with iPhones for three years. Period.
    I'd put as much on the students that didn't check to make sure what formats were accepted and verify that's what they were sending. 
    And also that they went outside of the app for whatever reason instead of following directions. Still however the onus is clearly on the IT department who usually barely know that anything other than Microsoft exists, including a 3 year old format used by, as mentioned previously,  the most commonly used camera in the world.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 41
    rezwitsrezwits Posts: 730member
    Honestly, I am seeing the divide as far as consumers, prosumers, professionals, and developers, start to be clearer and clearer.

    What does that mean?

    Well there are "quite a few" things that devices AUTOMATICALLY do for people.  And some people get into trouble spots because something is or isn't AUTOMATIC now days.

    I had an old budy of mine, he's just been passed up by, Time, Kids, Family, Work, (Old Age) etc, and he's barely "prosumer" level any more.  Which he was fully like 3-4 years ago.

    This also happens cause people get old and don't care about WHAT the NEW things are with their devices, they just buy the next new one and then the next new one, etc...

    It's like hey, pay attention to whats going on what's changing, it's not their fault, it's just 100s of things keep changing...

    Such is with computers now days...
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 29 of 41
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 5,477member
    DAalseth said:
    Eric_WVGG said:
    > As it turns out, the problem is the iPhone — and some newer Android phones as well.

    NO. It is absolutely the responsibility of the test makers to continually evaluate new devices for ongoing functionality. It is ludicrous to expect Apple or Google or Microsoft to test ongoing compatibility with the hundreds of millions of apps in the world, just impossible, so the burden sadly must be on app makers to stay current with this shit.

    Lots of students are probably angry at Apple right now. That anger is displaced. This is on the test makers and the notoriously poor education tech sector.

    To re-iterate: the problem is a test maker that hasn't bothered two check if their web app works with iPhones for three years. Period.
    I'd put as much on the students that didn't check to make sure what formats were accepted and verify that's what they were sending. 
    And what percentage of users do you reckon know what format their camera saves photos in? Or how many know that there are multiple formats to begin with? Or what an image file format is?
    GeorgeBMactokyojimuelijahgwatto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 41
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 9,874member
    apple ][ said:
    If you advertise "It just works", it seem seems like you kinda need to make sure that it "works'.  

    It's this type of thing that frustrated my grandson so he asked me to install Windows on his new MacBook Air.   He just didn't want the hassle. 
    It does work. Apple is obviously not responsible for a crappy website that is poorly made.

    You don't understand "just works".   Steve did.   You don't
    In this case, the kid failed to complete a test because his computer failed to submit the necessary information.   The key word "failed" means it didn't "just work" and caused the kid to fail the test.  If he had used a Windows machine it would have worked and he would have completed the test.

    So, back to my original statement:
    "If you advertise "It just works", it seems like you kinda need to make sure that it "works'."

    It doesn't matter if the failure was due to hardware, software or design -- it failed the test.  It didn't "just work".

    edited May 2020 elijahg
  • Reply 31 of 41
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 5,477member
    apple ][ said:
    If you advertise "It just works", it seem seems like you kinda need to make sure that it "works'.  

    It's this type of thing that frustrated my grandson so he asked me to install Windows on his new MacBook Air.   He just didn't want the hassle. 
    It does work. Apple is obviously not responsible for a crappy website that is poorly made.

    You don't understand "just works".   Steve did.   You don't
    In this case, the kid failed to complete a test because his computer failed to submit the necessary information.   The key word "failed" means it didn't "just work" and caused the kid to fail the test.  If he had used a Windows machine it would have worked and he would have completed the test.

    So, back to my original statement:
    "If you advertise "It just works", it seems like you kinda need to make sure that it "works'."

    It doesn't matter if the failure was due to hardware, software or design -- it failed the test.  It didn't "just work".

    Wrong. The computer submitted the necessary information, but the poorly designed and outdated website was unable to provide meaningful feedback or even simply accept the newer file format. This is a basic web accessibility problem that lies solely with the developers of the site and those that maintain and own it. As for Windows, If the photos were taken with an iPhone/iPad or Android device that uses HEIC, it would've failed if they were uploaded via that operating system too. There's no way for the browser to know what the site will or will not accept if the site isn't set up properly. This one clearly wasn't.

    You don't understand "just works", either. Jobs never said everything they made was compatible with everything else made by third parties, and that's never been true anyway. Your "test" is inherently flawed. Did you say it was Apple's fault when sites were still using a Flash file uploader (which was once common) after iOS came out? Or sites that only worked on IE and didn't function properly on Safari? Same thing.
    GG1pscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 41
    DAalsethDAalseth Posts: 1,628member
    DAalseth said:
    Eric_WVGG said:
    > As it turns out, the problem is the iPhone — and some newer Android phones as well.

    NO. It is absolutely the responsibility of the test makers to continually evaluate new devices for ongoing functionality. It is ludicrous to expect Apple or Google or Microsoft to test ongoing compatibility with the hundreds of millions of apps in the world, just impossible, so the burden sadly must be on app makers to stay current with this shit.

    Lots of students are probably angry at Apple right now. That anger is displaced. This is on the test makers and the notoriously poor education tech sector.

    To re-iterate: the problem is a test maker that hasn't bothered two check if their web app works with iPhones for three years. Period.
    I'd put as much on the students that didn't check to make sure what formats were accepted and verify that's what they were sending. 
    And what percentage of users do you reckon know what format their camera saves photos in? Or how many know that there are multiple formats to begin with? Or what an image file format is?
    If it's that important you should know to check.
    apple ][ said:
    If you advertise "It just works", it seem seems like you kinda need to make sure that it "works'.  

    It's this type of thing that frustrated my grandson so he asked me to install Windows on his new MacBook Air.   He just didn't want the hassle. 
    It does work. Apple is obviously not responsible for a crappy website that is poorly made.

    You don't understand "just works".   Steve did.   You don't
    In this case, the kid failed to complete a test because his computer failed to submit the necessary information.   The key word "failed" means it didn't "just work" and caused the kid to fail the test.  If he had used a Windows machine it would have worked and he would have completed the test.

    So, back to my original statement:
    "If you advertise "It just works", it seems like you kinda need to make sure that it "works'."

    It doesn't matter if the failure was due to hardware, software or design -- it failed the test.  It didn't "just work".

    The iPhone did 'just work'. It took the picture and sent it where the kid wanted it to go. If I submit a manuscript and the site says send it as a PDF or DOCX format, I'm to blame if I send PAGES. I'm sure the site specified what format of document to send. That should have been a giant red flare in the sky that they needed to check. Computers only do what they are told to do. Especially on something this important you check everything including accepted formats. I'd say these people learned a valuable lesson, one that will serve them well later in life. 
  • Reply 33 of 41
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 9,874member
    DAalseth said:
    DAalseth said:
    Eric_WVGG said:
    > As it turns out, the problem is the iPhone — and some newer Android phones as well.

    NO. It is absolutely the responsibility of the test makers to continually evaluate new devices for ongoing functionality. It is ludicrous to expect Apple or Google or Microsoft to test ongoing compatibility with the hundreds of millions of apps in the world, just impossible, so the burden sadly must be on app makers to stay current with this shit.

    Lots of students are probably angry at Apple right now. That anger is displaced. This is on the test makers and the notoriously poor education tech sector.

    To re-iterate: the problem is a test maker that hasn't bothered two check if their web app works with iPhones for three years. Period.
    I'd put as much on the students that didn't check to make sure what formats were accepted and verify that's what they were sending. 
    And what percentage of users do you reckon know what format their camera saves photos in? Or how many know that there are multiple formats to begin with? Or what an image file format is?
    If it's that important you should know to check.
    apple ][ said:
    If you advertise "It just works", it seem seems like you kinda need to make sure that it "works'.  

    It's this type of thing that frustrated my grandson so he asked me to install Windows on his new MacBook Air.   He just didn't want the hassle. 
    It does work. Apple is obviously not responsible for a crappy website that is poorly made.

    You don't understand "just works".   Steve did.   You don't
    In this case, the kid failed to complete a test because his computer failed to submit the necessary information.   The key word "failed" means it didn't "just work" and caused the kid to fail the test.  If he had used a Windows machine it would have worked and he would have completed the test.

    So, back to my original statement:
    "If you advertise "It just works", it seems like you kinda need to make sure that it "works'."

    It doesn't matter if the failure was due to hardware, software or design -- it failed the test.  It didn't "just work".

    The iPhone did 'just work'. It took the picture and sent it where the kid wanted it to go. If I submit a manuscript and the site says send it as a PDF or DOCX format, I'm to blame if I send PAGES. I'm sure the site specified what format of document to send. That should have been a giant red flare in the sky that they needed to check. Computers only do what they are told to do. Especially on something this important you check everything including accepted formats. I'd say these people learned a valuable lesson, one that will serve them well later in life. 

    Did it work?  No!  The kid failed his test.
    Is that what Steve meant by "It just works"?    Seriously?

    Playing the blame game does no more good here to get the kid to pass his test than it does to save lives when we blame China for our lack of PPE, Testing and Tracing.
    ... In this case, it was Apple who chose what format to send the file in.   99% of Apple users would have no way of knowing or even finding out what file format Apple chose.

    That's not to trash Apple.   But to hold them to their own high standard of:  "It just works".   Because, you don't get to add "... sometimes" to that motto. 
  • Reply 34 of 41
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,221member
    apple ][ said:
    If you advertise "It just works", it seem seems like you kinda need to make sure that it "works'.  

    It's this type of thing that frustrated my grandson so he asked me to install Windows on his new MacBook Air.   He just didn't want the hassle. 
    It does work. Apple is obviously not responsible for a crappy website that is poorly made.

    You don't understand "just works".   Steve did.   You don't
    In this case, the kid failed to complete a test because his computer failed to submit the necessary information.   The key word "failed" means it didn't "just work" and caused the kid to fail the test.  If he had used a Windows machine it would have worked and he would have completed the test.

    So, back to my original statement:
    "If you advertise "It just works", it seems like you kinda need to make sure that it "works'."

    It doesn't matter if the failure was due to hardware, software or design -- it failed the test.  It didn't "just work".

    Wrong. The computer submitted the necessary information, but the poorly designed and outdated website was unable to provide meaningful feedback or even simply accept the newer file format. This is a basic web accessibility problem that lies solely with the developers of the site and those that maintain and own it. As for Windows, If the photos were taken with an iPhone/iPad or Android device that uses HEIC, it would've failed if they were uploaded via that operating system too. There's no way for the browser to know what the site will or will not accept if the site isn't set up properly. This one clearly wasn't.

    You don't understand "just works", either. Jobs never said everything they made was compatible with everything else made by third parties, and that's never been true anyway. Your "test" is inherently flawed. Did you say it was Apple's fault when sites were still using a Flash file uploader (which was once common) after iOS came out? Or sites that only worked on IE and didn't function properly on Safari? Same thing.
    Wrong. The computer didn't submit the necessary information, because it was in the wrong format - a format many things don't support. Imagemagick has only relatively recently added support, and it takes a long time for that to trickle down through repos to be tested and installed on production machines. Submitting the necessary information is akin to Apple deciding that instead of their devices using UTF-8 or ASCII, they'd use their own Apple-inspired character set instead. Then when anything was posted that didn't support Apple's character set, the "necessary information" would have been sent but it would appear as garbage.

    However, the site should have reported an error back to the user that the file format was wrong. Though then the user would have to try and find out how to change the format either by default or with a third party app, which is not very "it just works", when all of this could be fixed by just uploading a .jpg by default. And then it would "just work". But yes, the site should also refuse to accept .HEIC, though again that leaves the user in a state of "the upload button doesn't work, now don't know what to do".
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 35 of 41
    DAalsethDAalseth Posts: 1,628member
    elijahg said:
    apple ][ said:
    If you advertise "It just works", it seem seems like you kinda need to make sure that it "works'.  

    It's this type of thing that frustrated my grandson so he asked me to install Windows on his new MacBook Air.   He just didn't want the hassle. 
    It does work. Apple is obviously not responsible for a crappy website that is poorly made.

    You don't understand "just works".   Steve did.   You don't
    In this case, the kid failed to complete a test because his computer failed to submit the necessary information.   The key word "failed" means it didn't "just work" and caused the kid to fail the test.  If he had used a Windows machine it would have worked and he would have completed the test.

    So, back to my original statement:
    "If you advertise "It just works", it seems like you kinda need to make sure that it "works'."

    It doesn't matter if the failure was due to hardware, software or design -- it failed the test.  It didn't "just work".

    Wrong. The computer submitted the necessary information, but the poorly designed and outdated website was unable to provide meaningful feedback or even simply accept the newer file format. This is a basic web accessibility problem that lies solely with the developers of the site and those that maintain and own it. As for Windows, If the photos were taken with an iPhone/iPad or Android device that uses HEIC, it would've failed if they were uploaded via that operating system too. There's no way for the browser to know what the site will or will not accept if the site isn't set up properly. This one clearly wasn't.

    You don't understand "just works", either. Jobs never said everything they made was compatible with everything else made by third parties, and that's never been true anyway. Your "test" is inherently flawed. Did you say it was Apple's fault when sites were still using a Flash file uploader (which was once common) after iOS came out? Or sites that only worked on IE and didn't function properly on Safari? Same thing.
    Wrong. The computer didn't submit the necessary information, because it was in the wrong format - a format many things don't support. Imagemagick has only relatively recently added support, and it takes a long time for that to trickle down through repos to be tested and installed on production machines. Submitting the necessary information is akin to Apple deciding that instead of their devices using UTF-8 or ASCII, they'd use their own Apple-inspired character set instead. Then when anything was posted that didn't support Apple's character set, the "necessary information" would have been sent but it would appear as garbage.

    However, the site should have reported an error back to the user that the file format was wrong. Though then the user would have to try and find out how to change the format either by default or with a third party app, which is not very "it just works", when all of this could be fixed by just uploading a .jpg by default. And then it would "just work". But yes, the site should also refuse to accept .HEIC, though again that leaves the user in a state of "the upload button doesn't work, now don't know what to do".
    That I would agree with. No matter what the format sent in, if it didn't match what was accepted, the site should have said so. I've had that happen on occasion, I'd send in a manuscript, and immediatly I'd get a pop-up saying "This site only accepts X, Y, and Z formats. Please resubmit...."  That checking and error message should have been in the site long before this format was around. There are all sorts of weird formats in various corners of the world where people say "But HERE that's the standard."
    elijahg
  • Reply 36 of 41
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 5,477member
    DAalseth said:
    DAalseth said:
    Eric_WVGG said:
    > As it turns out, the problem is the iPhone — and some newer Android phones as well.

    NO. It is absolutely the responsibility of the test makers to continually evaluate new devices for ongoing functionality. It is ludicrous to expect Apple or Google or Microsoft to test ongoing compatibility with the hundreds of millions of apps in the world, just impossible, so the burden sadly must be on app makers to stay current with this shit.

    Lots of students are probably angry at Apple right now. That anger is displaced. This is on the test makers and the notoriously poor education tech sector.

    To re-iterate: the problem is a test maker that hasn't bothered two check if their web app works with iPhones for three years. Period.
    I'd put as much on the students that didn't check to make sure what formats were accepted and verify that's what they were sending. 
    And what percentage of users do you reckon know what format their camera saves photos in? Or how many know that there are multiple formats to begin with? Or what an image file format is?
    If it's that important you should know to check.
    Not what I asked. If users have no concept of different image file formats, how would they know it's important?
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 37 of 41
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 5,477member

    DAalseth said:
    DAalseth said:
    Eric_WVGG said:
    > As it turns out, the problem is the iPhone — and some newer Android phones as well.

    NO. It is absolutely the responsibility of the test makers to continually evaluate new devices for ongoing functionality. It is ludicrous to expect Apple or Google or Microsoft to test ongoing compatibility with the hundreds of millions of apps in the world, just impossible, so the burden sadly must be on app makers to stay current with this shit.

    Lots of students are probably angry at Apple right now. That anger is displaced. This is on the test makers and the notoriously poor education tech sector.

    To re-iterate: the problem is a test maker that hasn't bothered two check if their web app works with iPhones for three years. Period.
    I'd put as much on the students that didn't check to make sure what formats were accepted and verify that's what they were sending. 
    And what percentage of users do you reckon know what format their camera saves photos in? Or how many know that there are multiple formats to begin with? Or what an image file format is?
    If it's that important you should know to check.
    apple ][ said:
    If you advertise "It just works", it seem seems like you kinda need to make sure that it "works'.  

    It's this type of thing that frustrated my grandson so he asked me to install Windows on his new MacBook Air.   He just didn't want the hassle. 
    It does work. Apple is obviously not responsible for a crappy website that is poorly made.

    You don't understand "just works".   Steve did.   You don't
    In this case, the kid failed to complete a test because his computer failed to submit the necessary information.   The key word "failed" means it didn't "just work" and caused the kid to fail the test.  If he had used a Windows machine it would have worked and he would have completed the test.

    So, back to my original statement:
    "If you advertise "It just works", it seems like you kinda need to make sure that it "works'."

    It doesn't matter if the failure was due to hardware, software or design -- it failed the test.  It didn't "just work".

    The iPhone did 'just work'. It took the picture and sent it where the kid wanted it to go. If I submit a manuscript and the site says send it as a PDF or DOCX format, I'm to blame if I send PAGES. I'm sure the site specified what format of document to send. That should have been a giant red flare in the sky that they needed to check. Computers only do what they are told to do. Especially on something this important you check everything including accepted formats. I'd say these people learned a valuable lesson, one that will serve them well later in life. 

    Did it work?  No!  The kid failed his test.
    Is that what Steve meant by "It just works"?    Seriously?

    Playing the blame game does no more good here to get the kid to pass his test than it does to save lives when we blame China for our lack of PPE, Testing and Tracing.
    ... In this case, it was Apple who chose what format to send the file in.   99% of Apple users would have no way of knowing or even finding out what file format Apple chose.

    That's not to trash Apple.   But to hold them to their own high standard of:  "It just works".   Because, you don't get to add "... sometimes" to that motto. 
    Again, "it just works" was always in reference to their own stack in comparison to others parties. The last time Jobs used that term publicly as far as I know was probably the iCloud demo at WWDC 2011, in comparison to other cloud offerings. Got an example where he said "it just works" in reference to their tech working seamlessly with third party tech? Either way this isn't an Apple issue as the same problem could've happened with an Android phone shooting/uploading in the same format.
    edited May 2020 watto_cobra
  • Reply 38 of 41
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 5,477member

    elijahg said:
    apple ][ said:
    If you advertise "It just works", it seem seems like you kinda need to make sure that it "works'.  

    It's this type of thing that frustrated my grandson so he asked me to install Windows on his new MacBook Air.   He just didn't want the hassle. 
    It does work. Apple is obviously not responsible for a crappy website that is poorly made.

    You don't understand "just works".   Steve did.   You don't
    In this case, the kid failed to complete a test because his computer failed to submit the necessary information.   The key word "failed" means it didn't "just work" and caused the kid to fail the test.  If he had used a Windows machine it would have worked and he would have completed the test.

    So, back to my original statement:
    "If you advertise "It just works", it seems like you kinda need to make sure that it "works'."

    It doesn't matter if the failure was due to hardware, software or design -- it failed the test.  It didn't "just work".

    Wrong. The computer submitted the necessary information, but the poorly designed and outdated website was unable to provide meaningful feedback or even simply accept the newer file format. This is a basic web accessibility problem that lies solely with the developers of the site and those that maintain and own it. As for Windows, If the photos were taken with an iPhone/iPad or Android device that uses HEIC, it would've failed if they were uploaded via that operating system too. There's no way for the browser to know what the site will or will not accept if the site isn't set up properly. This one clearly wasn't.

    You don't understand "just works", either. Jobs never said everything they made was compatible with everything else made by third parties, and that's never been true anyway. Your "test" is inherently flawed. Did you say it was Apple's fault when sites were still using a Flash file uploader (which was once common) after iOS came out? Or sites that only worked on IE and didn't function properly on Safari? Same thing.
    Wrong. The computer didn't submit the necessary information, because it was in the wrong format - a format many things don't support. Imagemagick has only relatively recently added support, and it takes a long time for that to trickle down through repos to be tested and installed on production machines. Submitting the necessary information is akin to Apple deciding that instead of their devices using UTF-8 or ASCII, they'd use their own Apple-inspired character set instead. Then when anything was posted that didn't support Apple's character set, the "necessary information" would have been sent but it would appear as garbage.

    However, the site should have reported an error back to the user that the file format was wrong. Though then the user would have to try and find out how to change the format either by default or with a third party app, which is not very "it just works", when all of this could be fixed by just uploading a .jpg by default. And then it would "just work". But yes, the site should also refuse to accept .HEIC, though again that leaves the user in a state of "the upload button doesn't work, now don't know what to do".
    Why are you and others focused on Apple here? It's not a proprietary format, Android 9 (and Windows 10 for that matter) both support HEIC for like two years now. Same problem probably happened to some Android users.

    The computer doesn't know what kind of file a website wants in a generic web file uploader, there's no way for it to know. But yes, the website should've thrown a meaningful error instead of simply timing out, which is just sloppy. Even a simple file extension check could've provided this, along with useful information as to what to do next. What if someone used a scanner app that saves to PDF by default and tried uploading that and the same thing occurred? Is that the OS's/browser's fault as well?

    Maybe Safari should automatically convert to JPEG on the fly when uploading images taken straight from the Library? Maybe. When you share photos via AirDrop, Messages, or email, it gets converted if the receiving end doesn't support HEIC. One could *assume* that the end goal of uploading the file to a website is the intent to display it on the web site itself, but you don't know that for sure. It's an interesting problem. 

    However, that doesn't excuse poor website design that clearly had not gone through thorough cross platform QA testing that would've easily revealed this issue.
    edited May 2020 watto_cobra
  • Reply 39 of 41
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 9,874member

    DAalseth said:
    DAalseth said:
    Eric_WVGG said:
    > As it turns out, the problem is the iPhone — and some newer Android phones as well.

    NO. It is absolutely the responsibility of the test makers to continually evaluate new devices for ongoing functionality. It is ludicrous to expect Apple or Google or Microsoft to test ongoing compatibility with the hundreds of millions of apps in the world, just impossible, so the burden sadly must be on app makers to stay current with this shit.

    Lots of students are probably angry at Apple right now. That anger is displaced. This is on the test makers and the notoriously poor education tech sector.

    To re-iterate: the problem is a test maker that hasn't bothered two check if their web app works with iPhones for three years. Period.
    I'd put as much on the students that didn't check to make sure what formats were accepted and verify that's what they were sending. 
    And what percentage of users do you reckon know what format their camera saves photos in? Or how many know that there are multiple formats to begin with? Or what an image file format is?
    If it's that important you should know to check.
    apple ][ said:
    If you advertise "It just works", it seem seems like you kinda need to make sure that it "works'.  

    It's this type of thing that frustrated my grandson so he asked me to install Windows on his new MacBook Air.   He just didn't want the hassle. 
    It does work. Apple is obviously not responsible for a crappy website that is poorly made.

    You don't understand "just works".   Steve did.   You don't
    In this case, the kid failed to complete a test because his computer failed to submit the necessary information.   The key word "failed" means it didn't "just work" and caused the kid to fail the test.  If he had used a Windows machine it would have worked and he would have completed the test.

    So, back to my original statement:
    "If you advertise "It just works", it seems like you kinda need to make sure that it "works'."

    It doesn't matter if the failure was due to hardware, software or design -- it failed the test.  It didn't "just work".

    The iPhone did 'just work'. It took the picture and sent it where the kid wanted it to go. If I submit a manuscript and the site says send it as a PDF or DOCX format, I'm to blame if I send PAGES. I'm sure the site specified what format of document to send. That should have been a giant red flare in the sky that they needed to check. Computers only do what they are told to do. Especially on something this important you check everything including accepted formats. I'd say these people learned a valuable lesson, one that will serve them well later in life. 

    Did it work?  No!  The kid failed his test.
    Is that what Steve meant by "It just works"?    Seriously?

    Playing the blame game does no more good here to get the kid to pass his test than it does to save lives when we blame China for our lack of PPE, Testing and Tracing.
    ... In this case, it was Apple who chose what format to send the file in.   99% of Apple users would have no way of knowing or even finding out what file format Apple chose.

    That's not to trash Apple.   But to hold them to their own high standard of:  "It just works".   Because, you don't get to add "... sometimes" to that motto. 
    Again, "it just works" was always in reference to their own stack in comparison to others parties. The last time Jobs used that term publicly as far as I know was probably the iCloud demo at WWDC 2011, in comparison to other cloud offerings. Got an example where he said "it just works" in reference to their tech working seamlessly with third party tech? Either way this isn't an Apple issue as the same problem could've happened with an Android phone shooting/uploading in the same format.

    Excuses don't cut it when your kid fails what is potentially the biggest test of his life because his computer sent the wrong format.

    That is not to trash Apple but to hold them to a higher standard,  their own:  "It just works".  
    edited May 2020 elijahg
  • Reply 40 of 41
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,221member

    elijahg said:
    apple ][ said:
    If you advertise "It just works", it seem seems like you kinda need to make sure that it "works'.  

    It's this type of thing that frustrated my grandson so he asked me to install Windows on his new MacBook Air.   He just didn't want the hassle. 
    It does work. Apple is obviously not responsible for a crappy website that is poorly made.

    You don't understand "just works".   Steve did.   You don't
    In this case, the kid failed to complete a test because his computer failed to submit the necessary information.   The key word "failed" means it didn't "just work" and caused the kid to fail the test.  If he had used a Windows machine it would have worked and he would have completed the test.

    So, back to my original statement:
    "If you advertise "It just works", it seems like you kinda need to make sure that it "works'."

    It doesn't matter if the failure was due to hardware, software or design -- it failed the test.  It didn't "just work".

    Wrong. The computer submitted the necessary information, but the poorly designed and outdated website was unable to provide meaningful feedback or even simply accept the newer file format. This is a basic web accessibility problem that lies solely with the developers of the site and those that maintain and own it. As for Windows, If the photos were taken with an iPhone/iPad or Android device that uses HEIC, it would've failed if they were uploaded via that operating system too. There's no way for the browser to know what the site will or will not accept if the site isn't set up properly. This one clearly wasn't.

    You don't understand "just works", either. Jobs never said everything they made was compatible with everything else made by third parties, and that's never been true anyway. Your "test" is inherently flawed. Did you say it was Apple's fault when sites were still using a Flash file uploader (which was once common) after iOS came out? Or sites that only worked on IE and didn't function properly on Safari? Same thing.
    Wrong. The computer didn't submit the necessary information, because it was in the wrong format - a format many things don't support. Imagemagick has only relatively recently added support, and it takes a long time for that to trickle down through repos to be tested and installed on production machines. Submitting the necessary information is akin to Apple deciding that instead of their devices using UTF-8 or ASCII, they'd use their own Apple-inspired character set instead. Then when anything was posted that didn't support Apple's character set, the "necessary information" would have been sent but it would appear as garbage.

    However, the site should have reported an error back to the user that the file format was wrong. Though then the user would have to try and find out how to change the format either by default or with a third party app, which is not very "it just works", when all of this could be fixed by just uploading a .jpg by default. And then it would "just work". But yes, the site should also refuse to accept .HEIC, though again that leaves the user in a state of "the upload button doesn't work, now don't know what to do".
    Why are you and others focused on Apple here? It's not a proprietary format, Android 9 (and Windows 10 for that matter) both support HEIC for like two years now. Same problem probably happened to some Android users.

    The computer doesn't know what kind of file a website wants in a generic web file uploader, there's no way for it to know. But yes, the website should've thrown a meaningful error instead of simply timing out, which is just sloppy. Even a simple file extension check could've provided this, along with useful information as to what to do next. What if someone used a scanner app that saves to PDF by default and tried uploading that and the same thing occurred? Is that the OS's/browser's fault as well?

    Maybe Safari should automatically convert to JPEG on the fly when uploading images taken straight from the Library? Maybe. When you share photos via AirDrop, Messages, or email, it gets converted if the receiving end doesn't support HEIC. One could *assume* that the end goal of uploading the file to a website is the intent to display it on the web site itself, but you don't know that for sure. It's an interesting problem. 

    However, that doesn't excuse poor website design that clearly had not gone through thorough cross platform QA testing that would've easily revealed this issue.
    Focus is on Apple because Apple's Safari is uploading an unusual format that is only used on relatively few other devices. Incredulously, .heic support in Windows is a *paid* addon, it is not supported by default. Utter madness. But this means Windows users can't even view the files. There are plenty of free non-propriatory formats that are better than current standards but aren't very compatible - doesn't mean they should be used instead in all circumstances. 

    Actually yes it can know, as I posted in comment #2. I don't disagree that it's a sloppy website, but Apple isn't helping the situation by relying on a third party to ensure something works. That's not the usual Apple way. 

    It should default to .jpg unless it detects support for .heic. If the assumption is to display on a website, it should definitely be converted to .jpg so that everything can render it. Literally the only reason for .heic is better quality with smaller filesize. That makes sense on a phone where storage is limited, but with a website where storage is so cheap, and whose burden to pay the storage costs is not the uploading user, just default to .jpg. The user shouldn't have to care what format their phone is uploading a picture in. So yeah. Apple is wrong here.
    edited May 2020 GeorgeBMac
Sign In or Register to comment.