While I agree that you can condemn the deeds of the past without necessarily condemning every person who lived by the norms of the day, there is a considerable walk from there to having statues in their honour. Put them in a museum, where they can be placed in critical context, or add monuments vis-a-vis, commemorating their victims or the horrors they perpetrated.
In that case, I guess we should tear down the monuments to most of our founding fathers. Plus. most people born before 1960 or 1970.
This is ridiculous argument.
The subjects of these monuments, military base names, etc, are not people who were simply alive at the time, they were people who trafficked slaves, advocated against abolishing slavery, and fought against our country to preserve their racist, bigoted ideals.
Yes, some. But certainly not all, not even most.
In England they had to protect a monument to Winston Churchill because protestors were threatening to destroy it accusing him of being racist. Does he fit your idea of one that should be torn down? It certainly doesn't fit mine.
Because some "owned slaves" in a period when that was legal, accepted and encouraged does not, in itself, make that person evil.
Should we memorialize Jefferson Davis? Probably not. I can't think of any reason why we should and several why we shouldn't. But to use a broad brush to paint every slave owner of the period as evil -- when their scientists and religious leaders told them it was not only acceptable but good - makes no sense.
Specifically, I condemn condemning people who followed the social mores and values of their era.
Watch any original series Startrek episode to see what today would be called out as blatant sexism -- but in 1968 it was normal and expected. One can condemn the sexism without condemning those who lived with it and under it as a normal part of life.
You sound like the people who use the N word, then turn around and say they are not racist.
It only sounds that way to a radical with an agenda.
While I agree that you can condemn the deeds of the past without necessarily condemning every person who lived by the norms of the day, there is a considerable walk from there to having statues in their honour. Put them in a museum, where they can be placed in critical context, or add monuments vis-a-vis, commemorating their victims or the horrors they perpetrated.
In that case, I guess we should tear down the monuments to most of our founding fathers. Plus. most people born before 1960 or 1970.
This is ridiculous argument.
The subjects of these monuments, military base names, etc, are not people who were simply alive at the time, they were people who trafficked slaves, advocated against abolishing slavery, and fought against our country to preserve their racist, bigoted ideals.
I agree with your other post about it being silly to bring up LGBTQ+ rights in the Middle East in an article about renaming of a store, but I think George has a point here regarding the founding fathers, which did have slaves. The core difference and where I part with him is in thinking that founding fathers of the United States of America are somehow synonymous to the traitorous, Confederate generals. He doesn't seem to understand what Jim Crow Laws are and why honoring these literal losers makes no sense. These names will all change in our lifetime.
I understand quite well what those laws were and what they meant.
I never said that there were never any racists (and worse). But, because a man owned slaves when slavery was legal, accepted and encouraged is not a reason to ignore the rest of that man's history and paint him in monocolor as ONLY an evil slave owner. That ignores the reality of men like Jefferson who put his life on the line and lost his fortune fighting to make this country not only possible, but great.
To equate him to Jefferson Davis or others like George Wallace who primarily supported slavery and racism is, well, misguided.
Or, to put it another way: Some want to condemn Winston Churchill and tear down monuments to him because he is accused (80 years later) of being a racist. Yet, without him, much of the world would be speaking German and ridding the world of "defective genes".
... I would say that crazies do crazy things because they are only connected to those parts of reality that they choose to be connected to.
While I agree that you can condemn the deeds of the past without necessarily condemning every person who lived by the norms of the day, there is a considerable walk from there to having statues in their honour. Put them in a museum, where they can be placed in critical context, or add monuments vis-a-vis, commemorating their victims or the horrors they perpetrated.
In that case, I guess we should tear down the monuments to most of our founding fathers. Plus. most people born before 1960 or 1970.
To portray somebody like Thomas Jefferson (and many others) only by their actions towards black people -- which were again, in keeping with the laws and values of their day -- would be misguided to the extreme.
Honoring Thomas Jefferson (to use him as an example) is not honoring slavery. It is honoring the man and all he did for our nation.
Added: Perhaps an analogy is people who smoked in the 50's, 60's and even 70's are portrayed as idiots. Yet back then smoking was not only normal but expected and most physicians and the AMA backed it as not only safe, but healthy!
Jefferson and other founding fathers had contemporaries that argued against slavery. They knew full well what they were doing was wrong but chose to do nothing because that is what benefited them personally. They failed to rise to the occasion and fully deserve to be judged for it. Arguing that it was okay because it was it was consistent with values of the times is a complete whitewash of history.
So? Does that erase all else that Thomas Jefferson did for this country? Does it erase that what Jefferson did was legal, accepted and encouraged in his time and society? Does it erase reality?
While I agree that you can condemn the deeds of the past without necessarily condemning every person who lived by the norms of the day, there is a considerable walk from there to having statues in their honour. Put them in a museum, where they can be placed in critical context, or add monuments vis-a-vis, commemorating their victims or the horrors they perpetrated.
In that case, I guess we should tear down the monuments to most of our founding fathers. Plus. most people born before 1960 or 1970.
To portray somebody like Thomas Jefferson (and many others) only by their actions towards black people -- which were again, in keeping with the laws and values of their day -- would be misguided to the extreme.
Honoring Thomas Jefferson (to use him as an example) is not honoring slavery. It is honoring the man and all he did for our nation.
Added: Perhaps an analogy is people who smoked in the 50's, 60's and even 70's are portrayed as idiots. Yet back then smoking was not only normal but expected and most physicians and the AMA backed it as not only safe, but healthy!
Jefferson and other founding fathers had contemporaries that argued against slavery. They knew full well what they were doing was wrong but chose to do nothing because that is what benefited them personally. They failed to rise to the occasion and fully deserve to be judged for it. Arguing that it was okay because it was it was consistent with values of the times is a complete whitewash of history.
So? Does that erase all else that Thomas Jefferson did for this country? Does it erase that what Jefferson did was legal, accepted and encouraged in his time and society? Does it erase reality?
Does it erase reality? No, that is the reality he knew what he was doing was wrong and he did it for his own benefit. We should look at the whole person and not make up excuses for their failings like you are you are trying to do. Your argument that it was broadly accepted and encouraged is demonstrably false. Slavery was the most contentious issue when writing the constitution. Further, slavery is still legal, you should really read the 13th Amendment.
So, again, you are trying to whitewash history.
As for what Thomas Jefferson did for the country? What did he do? He was a wealthy, educated, white male. He created a country the benefited himself and not others. Black people weren’t considered people, women couldn’t vote and the only white men that were allowed to vote were property owners. Hell of a guy.
While I agree that you can condemn the deeds of the past without necessarily condemning every person who lived by the norms of the day, there is a considerable walk from there to having statues in their honour. Put them in a museum, where they can be placed in critical context, or add monuments vis-a-vis, commemorating their victims or the horrors they perpetrated.
In that case, I guess we should tear down the monuments to most of our founding fathers. Plus. most people born before 1960 or 1970.
To portray somebody like Thomas Jefferson (and many others) only by their actions towards black people -- which were again, in keeping with the laws and values of their day -- would be misguided to the extreme.
Honoring Thomas Jefferson (to use him as an example) is not honoring slavery. It is honoring the man and all he did for our nation.
Added: Perhaps an analogy is people who smoked in the 50's, 60's and even 70's are portrayed as idiots. Yet back then smoking was not only normal but expected and most physicians and the AMA backed it as not only safe, but healthy!
Jefferson and other founding fathers had contemporaries that argued against slavery. They knew full well what they were doing was wrong but chose to do nothing because that is what benefited them personally. They failed to rise to the occasion and fully deserve to be judged for it. Arguing that it was okay because it was it was consistent with values of the times is a complete whitewash of history.
So? Does that erase all else that Thomas Jefferson did for this country? Does it erase that what Jefferson did was legal, accepted and encouraged in his time and society? Does it erase reality?
Does it erase reality? No, that is the reality he knew what he was doing was wrong and he did it for his own benefit. We should look at the whole person and not make up excuses for their failings like you are you are trying to do. Your argument that it was broadly accepted and encouraged is demonstrably false. Slavery was the most contentious issue when writing the constitution. Further, slavery is still legal, you should really read the 13th Amendment.
So, again, you are trying to whitewash history.
As for what Thomas Jefferson did for the country? What did he do? He was a wealthy, educated, white male. He created a country the benefited himself and not others. Black people weren’t considered people, women couldn’t vote and the only white men that were allowed to vote were property owners. Hell of a guy.
So you erase or rewrite the parts of reality that don't fit your agenda. Got it. That's very Trumpian of you.
Was it Obama who said: "You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts"
Sorry, I support Black Lives Matter, not stupidity.
While I agree that you can condemn the deeds of the past without necessarily condemning every person who lived by the norms of the day, there is a considerable walk from there to having statues in their honour. Put them in a museum, where they can be placed in critical context, or add monuments vis-a-vis, commemorating their victims or the horrors they perpetrated.
In that case, I guess we should tear down the monuments to most of our founding fathers. Plus. most people born before 1960 or 1970.
To portray somebody like Thomas Jefferson (and many others) only by their actions towards black people -- which were again, in keeping with the laws and values of their day -- would be misguided to the extreme.
Honoring Thomas Jefferson (to use him as an example) is not honoring slavery. It is honoring the man and all he did for our nation.
Added: Perhaps an analogy is people who smoked in the 50's, 60's and even 70's are portrayed as idiots. Yet back then smoking was not only normal but expected and most physicians and the AMA backed it as not only safe, but healthy!
Jefferson and other founding fathers had contemporaries that argued against slavery. They knew full well what they were doing was wrong but chose to do nothing because that is what benefited them personally. They failed to rise to the occasion and fully deserve to be judged for it. Arguing that it was okay because it was it was consistent with values of the times is a complete whitewash of history.
So? Does that erase all else that Thomas Jefferson did for this country? Does it erase that what Jefferson did was legal, accepted and encouraged in his time and society? Does it erase reality?
Does it erase reality? No, that is the reality he knew what he was doing was wrong and he did it for his own benefit. We should look at the whole person and not make up excuses for their failings like you are you are trying to do. Your argument that it was broadly accepted and encouraged is demonstrably false. Slavery was the most contentious issue when writing the constitution. Further, slavery is still legal, you should really read the 13th Amendment.
So, again, you are trying to whitewash history.
As for what Thomas Jefferson did for the country? What did he do? He was a wealthy, educated, white male. He created a country the benefited himself and not others. Black people weren’t considered people, women couldn’t vote and the only white men that were allowed to vote were property owners. Hell of a guy.
So you erase or rewrite the parts of reality that don't fit your agenda. Got it. That's very Trumpian of you.
Was it Obama who said: "You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts"
Sorry, I support Black Lives Matter, not stupidity.
What did I rewrite or get wrong? Can you actually engage on substance or is your stance so weak that you just need to use ad hominem attacks?
You tried to dismiss people behavior by saying they were consistent with values and norms at the time. When it comes to the founding fathers and slavery this is objectively false as it was a very contentious issues. Their writings clearly indicate that. Sorry to be the person that let you know that they were some really problematic people but if you want to live the fantasy they they weren’t then knock yourself out.
Not sure what BLM has to do with any or what I said but if you really need to change the subject then okay. We at leas agree on that.
As for what Thomas Jefferson did for the country? What did he do? He was a wealthy, educated, white male. He created a country the benefited himself and not others. Black people weren’t considered people, women couldn’t vote and the only white men that were allowed to vote were property owners. Hell of a guy.
It's interesting your concepts of social justice prevent you from acknowledging the contributions Jefferson made to this country.
Was it Jefferson's fault women couldn't vote? Was it his fault slavery was legal? No, he was born into that environment.
So criticizing Jefferson for the mores of his day is the sort of knee jerk virtue signaling which seeks to reduce history into these overly simplistic moral narratives.
And overly simplistic moral narratives are what give rise to fanaticism of all kinds, religious or otherwise, as it breeds intolerance.
And not being able to appreciate Jefferson, despite his flaws, is a pretty good example of intolerance in action.
It’s an interesting narrative and to get to it you really had to selectively quote me and ignore the context of the comments. So, interesting but intellectually dishonest. I said we should look at the whole person and not make excuses for their failings. At not point did I say he made no positive contributions to the country. That is something you simply made up. I did point out his short comings though and you did exactly what the person I was responding to did which was make excuses and not only that you made the same bad excuse that is demonstrably false.
Weird how people get so touchy when the founding fathers are criticized. They were humans and as such they were imperfect. It’s time to let go of the myth that they somehow transcend their own humanity and created perfection. They made some profound mistakes that have repercussions that we still feel today. It’s okay to point out there short comings, really it is.
It’s an interesting narrative and to get to it you really had to selectively quote me and ignore the context of the comments. So, interesting but intellectually dishonest. I said we should look at the whole person and not make excuses for their failings. At not point did I say he made no positive contributions to the country.
Is that true though?
Here is what you wrote above about Jefferson: "As for what Thomas Jefferson did for the country? What did he do? He was a wealthy, educated, white male. He created a country the benefited himself and not others. Black people weren’t considered people, women couldn’t vote and the only white men that were allowed to vote were property owners. Hell of a guy."
So maybe I missed the part where you were describing the positive contributions Jefferson made to the country.
To answer your question about the founding fathers, the reason they are still lauded today, despite their flaws, is because they created a government which is still the envy of the world some 250 years later.
No small feat.
So to blame them for the problems of today, is just a lazy cheap shot. What we should do is take what they have given us, and build upon it, instead of obsessing over their flaws which serves no useful purpose that I can think of.
You are being disingenuous. Your are deliberately ignoring both the paragraph before the one you are quoting and the entire context of the conversation.
The idea that the U.S government is the envy of the world is just jingoistic B.S. which you could provide zero evidence for.
Your last paragraph pretty much defines the roadblocks to progress now. Some people are to entrenched in American Dogma that they struggle when that world view is challenged.
Dumb. Just another virtue-signaling, quasi-woke corporate gesture that doesn’t accomplish anything. And before you start, no, I’m not some outraged Redneck screaming about tradition. It’s just useless.
You are being disingenuous. Your are deliberately ignoring both the paragraph before the one you are quoting and the entire context of the conversation.
The idea that the U.S government is the envy of the world is just jingoistic B.S. which you could provide zero evidence for.
Your last paragraph pretty much defines the roadblocks to progress now. Some people are to entrenched in American Dogma that they struggle when that world view is challenged.
Right now in Hong Kong, protestors are waving American flags... They're not waving German flags, or French flags, or EU flags.
Now why do you think that is?
Seriously? You said that our government is the envy of the world and your evidence is protesters in a single city waving American flags. What do think that is? It’s a complete failure on your part to back your claim with evidence.
Also worth pointing out that Hong Kong activists have been working to pull together a BLM rally in solidarity with the U.S. movement. So it would seem they see the flaws in our system.
And at this point the conversation is so off topic I’m going to drop out of it. Last word is all yours.
While I totally, 200% support the current uprisings (on many levels) against systemic racism and police violence, there are, I think, limits.
You can't change the rules then condemn somebody for not following those changed rules.
Specifically, I condemn condemning people who followed the social mores and values of their era.
Watch any original series Startrek episode to see what today would be called out as blatant sexism -- but in 1968 it was normal and expected. One can condemn the sexism without condemning those who lived with it and under it as a normal part of life.
In the 16th, 17th and much of the 18th centuries slavery was condoned and even encouraged by both scientists and religious leaders of the day as the belief was that black people stemmed from a different branch than white people were no more human than a cow. We now know that belief is ridiculous to the point that anybody who believes such nonsense today would be thought of as a fool or an idiot. But back then it was a common belief that justified slavery.
In short, we can condemn slavery and its close cousin racism without condemning those who practiced the acceptable and encouraged laws and social values of their day.
In effect: You can't change the rules that somebody lived under and then condemn them for not following rules that didn't exist when they were alive.
In 50 years people will be condemning us for doing things we think of as normal and acceptable.....
Slavery was an atrocity and not the close cousin of racism. Racism is the thought process that allowed people to justifiably treat another race the same as an animal.
People aren’t inherently able to treat another being with total disregard, they have to be taught that. Yes there are some people that are simply evil, but most people aren’t born with this thinking. That is where racism comes in. If you are taught these things are ok you will believe they are ok. We are a nation built on systemic racism.
Do you realize that black peoples in this country have been free for less time they were enslaved?
Did you know that George washing used the teeth of his slaves for dentures and the story of them being wooden is a fairytale at best ?
Slave owners offered up the wives, daughters and sons of his slaves to guests to have their way with. Can you imagine having your significant other or child taken and give to someone else to do god knows what for the night and there is nothing you can do to stop it.
Watch Birth of a Nation the story of Nat Turner to see where I am coming from.
I mention these things with Washington and slave owners offering slaves to guests for sex to show that American slavery wasn’t just the thing people were doing because the law said it was ok. I am also not saying that all owners behaved this way, but they knew others that did and turned a blind eye because in the end it was just a slave... a lesser being.
“In short, we can condemn slavery and its close cousin racism without condemning those who practiced the acceptable and encouraged laws and social values of their day.
In effect: You can't change the rules that somebody lived under and then condemn them for not following rules that didn't exist when they were alive.”
I agree that we can’t change the rules of the times, but we don’t have to celebrate them either.
Seriously? You said that our government is the envy of the world and your evidence is protesters in a single city waving American flags. What do think that is? It’s a complete failure on your part to back your claim with evidence.
When something is obvious to a great many people, there is hardly a need to explain. A bit like saying water is wet.
But if you insist, there is a reason millions of people want to emigrate to the US each and every year. If the US was such a horrible place to live, racial injustice everywhere you turn etc, then millions of people the world over would not aspire to live here.
If you ever traveled outside the US, you would understand.
For instance I know a number of people from Iran who emigrated to the US two decades ago. And they are the most patriotic Americans you could ever hope to find, and not a day goes by they don't appreciate living in the US, and being US citizens.
So if I were to tell them some of the things you've been saying on this forum today, they would just laugh.....
At places such as Oberlin, they teach the young and impressionable students that the US is little more than a racist backwater. But out here in the real world, the people aren't so easily fooled.
And I have known and know today Cuban-Americans who are the most patriotic people you will ever meet. They have lived in the Marxist hellholes the political Left keeps trying to foist on the US.
Seriously? You said that our government is the envy of the world and your evidence is protesters in a single city waving American flags. What do think that is? It’s a complete failure on your part to back your claim with evidence.
When something is obvious to a great many people, there is hardly a need to explain. A bit like saying water is wet.
But if you insist, there is a reason millions of people want to emigrate to the US each and every year. If the US was such a horrible place to live, racial injustice everywhere you turn etc, then millions of people the world over would not aspire to live here.
If you ever traveled outside the US, you would understand.
For instance I know a number of people from Iran who emigrated to the US two decades ago. And they are the most patriotic Americans you could ever hope to find, and not a day goes by they don't appreciate living in the US, and being US citizens.
So if I were to tell them some of the things you've been saying on this forum today, they would just laugh.....
At places such as Oberlin, they teach the young and impressionable students that the US is little more than a racist backwater. But out here in the real world, the people aren't so easily fooled.
And I have known and know today Cuban-Americans who are the most patriotic people you will ever meet. They have lived in the Marxist hellholes the political Left keeps trying to foist on the US.
Huh. I don't encounter too many people in the US that are against communism but in favor of fascism.
While I agree that you can condemn the deeds of the past without necessarily condemning every person who lived by the norms of the day, there is a considerable walk from there to having statues in their honour. Put them in a museum, where they can be placed in critical context, or add monuments vis-a-vis, commemorating their victims or the horrors they perpetrated.
In that case, I guess we should tear down the monuments to most of our founding fathers. Plus. most people born before 1960 or 1970.
To portray somebody like Thomas Jefferson (and many others) only by their actions towards black people -- which were again, in keeping with the laws and values of their day -- would be misguided to the extreme.
Honoring Thomas Jefferson (to use him as an example) is not honoring slavery. It is honoring the man and all he did for our nation.
Added: Perhaps an analogy is people who smoked in the 50's, 60's and even 70's are portrayed as idiots. Yet back then smoking was not only normal but expected and most physicians and the AMA backed it as not only safe, but healthy!
Jefferson and other founding fathers had contemporaries that argued against slavery. They knew full well what they were doing was wrong but chose to do nothing because that is what benefited them personally. They failed to rise to the occasion and fully deserve to be judged for it. Arguing that it was okay because it was it was consistent with values of the times is a complete whitewash of history.
So? Does that erase all else that Thomas Jefferson did for this country? Does it erase that what Jefferson did was legal, accepted and encouraged in his time and society? Does it erase reality?
Does it erase reality? No, that is the reality he knew what he was doing was wrong and he did it for his own benefit. We should look at the whole person and not make up excuses for their failings like you are you are trying to do. Your argument that it was broadly accepted and encouraged is demonstrably false. Slavery was the most contentious issue when writing the constitution. Further, slavery is still legal, you should really read the 13th Amendment.
So, again, you are trying to whitewash history.
As for what Thomas Jefferson did for the country? What did he do? He was a wealthy, educated, white male. He created a country the benefited himself and not others. Black people weren’t considered people, women couldn’t vote and the only white men that were allowed to vote were property owners. Hell of a guy.
So you erase or rewrite the parts of reality that don't fit your agenda. Got it. That's very Trumpian of you.
Was it Obama who said: "You have a right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts"
Sorry, I support Black Lives Matter, not stupidity.
What did I rewrite or get wrong? Can you actually engage on substance or is your stance so weak that you just need to use ad hominem attacks?
You tried to dismiss people behavior by saying they were consistent with values and norms at the time. When it comes to the founding fathers and slavery this is objectively false as it was a very contentious issues. Their writings clearly indicate that. Sorry to be the person that let you know that they were some really problematic people but if you want to live the fantasy they they weren’t then knock yourself out.
Not sure what BLM has to do with any or what I said but if you really need to change the subject then okay. We at leas agree on that.
If you don't know all of the things Jefferson did for this nation -- or pretend that you don't -- then nobody can explain it to you. You are willfully ignorant -- the bastion of most all extremists.
You are being disingenuous. Your are deliberately ignoring both the paragraph before the one you are quoting and the entire context of the conversation.
The idea that the U.S government is the envy of the world is just jingoistic B.S. which you could provide zero evidence for.
Your last paragraph pretty much defines the roadblocks to progress now. Some people are to entrenched in American Dogma that they struggle when that world view is challenged.
Right now in Hong Kong, protestors are waving American flags... They're not waving German flags, or French flags, or EU flags.
Now why do you think that is?
Because the American right wing -- backed by the Squatter in Chief -- has been instigating insurrection over there?
Comments
It only sounds that way to a radical with an agenda.
I'll stick to reality thank you.
You tried to dismiss people behavior by saying they were consistent with values and norms at the time. When it comes to the founding fathers and slavery this is objectively false as it was a very contentious issues. Their writings clearly indicate that. Sorry to be the person that let you know that they were some really problematic people but if you want to live the fantasy they they weren’t then knock yourself out.
It’s an interesting narrative and to get to it you really had to selectively quote me and ignore the context of the comments. So, interesting but intellectually dishonest. I said we should look at the whole person and not make excuses for their failings. At not point did I say he made no positive contributions to the country. That is something you simply made up. I did point out his short comings though and you did exactly what the person I was responding to did which was make excuses and not only that you made the same bad excuse that is demonstrably false.
The idea that the U.S government is the envy of the world is just jingoistic B.S. which you could provide zero evidence for.
Your last paragraph pretty much defines the roadblocks to progress now. Some people are to entrenched in American Dogma that they struggle when that world view is challenged.
Given how much the crown used trumped up charges to remove Scots to the colonies.
Do you realize that black peoples in this country have been free for less time they were enslaved?
http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/pds/maai/enslavement/text6/masterslavesexualabuse.pdf
I agree that we can’t change the rules of the times, but we don’t have to celebrate them either.
If you don't know all of the things Jefferson did for this nation -- or pretend that you don't -- then nobody can explain it to you. You are willfully ignorant -- the bastion of most all extremists.
Because the American right wing -- backed by the Squatter in Chief -- has been instigating insurrection over there?