Why the Mac's migration to Apple Silicon is bigger than ARM



  • Reply 121 of 123
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 6,214member
    mattinoz said:
    mattinoz said:
    mjtomlin said:
    crowley said:
    I wonder if the higher end Macs will have A chips with integrated GPUs, or if there will be non-GPU variants where Apple have a dedicated separate GPU, presumably from AMD.
    I'm guessing we may have seen the last of AMD / NIVIDA in any future Mac. The ARM GPU cores are no less as impressive or scalable than the CPU cores. That's another significant cost savings for Apple. It also insures that the GPU is optimized for Metal. This was the point of Metal from the beginning and why OpenGL was sent to the dustbin. Apple has been planning this move for almost a decade and I think it runs much deeper and faster than most people suspect; no INTEL/AMD, no AMD/NIVIDA and soon no Qualcomm.

    The end of dependence on competitors or a single source for parts. Complete design and manufacturing freedom.

    I suspect we'll also see the price drop as times goes on since they will be able to maintain margins and expand their base at the same time; maybe -$100 on the low end and $100s of dollars up the chain to the higher spec'd hardware.

    These new Macs will still support discrete GPUs. There’s no reason to think they won’t.

    Would not be at all surprised if the Developer kits have a GPU in them. Given they were supposedly driving the XDR display.

    No reason to believe that.


    However do they find all the extra pixels?
    Detnator said:
    mattinoz said:
    Detnator said:
    Beats said:
    rain22 said:
    “ but it suggests that new Apple Silicon Macs will not be struggling to keep up with the graphics on Intel Macs.”

    That would be nice - but seems extremely dependent on programs being optimized. The anemic library of titles will probably shrink even further - at least until there is market saturation. 

    Mac users will be stuck using dumbed down iOS software for a long time I feel. 
    After all - This is the motivation isn’t it? Eventually have just 1 OS that can be modded to facilitate the device. 

    A-Series is closer than you think. We will see A14 this year which will surpass PS4 Pro graphics. Eventually iPad games and Mac games will be next-gen quality. We could potentially see iPad/Mac pass PS5 quality during PS5's lifetime.

    Yes, I know nerdcore gamers will compare this to $5,000 rigs just to sh** on Apple but the reality is, 99% of the population doesn't give a damn at this point. This isn't 1993 when 8-bit and 16-bit was a massive leap and at 7"(iPhone)-24"(iMac) screens there will be no need for 8k or something ridiculous.

    I think a smart move would be for Apple to encourage developers to support A14 games. We need a handful of titles that run better than that Tomb Raider demo even at the cost of leaving iPhone 6s users behind.

    I don't really know the first thing about serious PC gaming, other than that (a) through Apple's history so far, it's about as far from Apple's target market as there is, and (b) as you say, most people don't care...  However, thinking about how MS more or less created Halo to popularize the Xbox (if I recall correctly - someone feel free to tell me if I've got that wrong)...I just wonder...

    Let's say Apple could get even just one (though 2-3 would be even better) serious game developer (or if they could do it themselves) to come out with a really really good AAA game (whatever that really means, but I just mean anything that typical "real" PC gamers would take seriously), built (or re-built) specifically for Apple's tech (Apple Silicon [AS], Metal, etc), without Apple having to build a specific gaming Mac...

    And let's say, on something like a $3000, AS, 6K 32" iMac (so not a MBA, but it doesn't have to be a MP either), such a game(s) screamed, performance-wise by every metric.  Let's say it craps all over any PC that said gamers might work so hard to custom build for even vaguely similar dollars (simply because AS has just nailed it)...

    Then maybe other developers might come on board.  And then I just wonder what that would do to the PC gaming market.  I mean, sure, Apple's got a thriving gaming market now, but it's a significantly different market to the traditional gaming PC world.  And as I understand it, Apple's never put serious gaming GPUs or really cooperated with the gaming-specific technologies (no desire to).

    But if these new Macs scream with Apple's CPUs, GPUs, Metal, etc, without Apple having to doing anything significantly different specifically for AAA gamers, and if someone (Apple or someone else) takes it seriously and builds for it - anything that the PC gaming market would take seriously - then maybe "serious" PC gaming is going in a new direction in the future, leaving MS and Intel behind there also.

    I just wonder.
    You do understand Halos developers Bungie were originally Mac exclusive developers. The first public showing of the game was on the Macworld stage as part of SJ keynote.

    MS acquired Halo to popularize the Xbox they didn't create it.

    I didn't (understand or know that), but I guess I do now.  It does ring a bell now you mention it.  Thanks.

    There is a myth of a Magazine cover disk with a playable demo but that issue of the mag in question didn't even make it to Australia.
    Of, what, Halo? I played the original Halo on my Powerbook.

    Also, Bungie's first shooters — Pathways Into Darkness and Marathon — on my older Macs in the 90's.
  • Reply 122 of 123
    darthw said:
    Will it be possible, eventually, for Apple to make faster SoCs than the fastest most powerful intel Xenon chips?
    In theory, yes.  Shrinking the dies usually speeds up the chip as signals have less distance to cover.  However, there is more to it than that such as processor instruction sets.  But as a consumer, you won't likely be able to afford Intel's highest-end Xeon processors.  You also won't want to invest in the cooling solution needed for those high-end Xeon processors to keep them cool.  Apple is going to be able to make the power available to users without the heat those Intel processors make.  Actually, Amazon already has its own ARM-based servers for AWS that are just as powerful as their X86 Xeon server counterparts, so I know what Apple is doing is already feasible.  As consumers, we are going to get from Apple small, light, and powerful ARM-based computers that aren't going to heat up the entire room.  We likely won't need some big honking two-PCI slot GPUs just to play a decent-looking game.  Nvidia RTX 2080's may soon be a thing of the past.  Maybe that's just wishful thinking, but only time will tell.
  • Reply 123 of 123
    Nice to see a modicum of intelligence in this comment section. I know things have shifted fundamentally on the Mac when the biggest argument against it comes from naysayers clinging to the last vestige of hope that developers won't develop mac games. Although myself and many other pro users can care less about games, the argument that AAA games will not flourish on the Mac is based on some seriously flawed logic.

    Apple has provided so many outstanding developer tools, and emulation even on the lowly A12z is far beyond what many of us imagined. Emulation on Apple's upcoming Z chips may soon outclass Intel's chips running native apps. On top of that, AAA game developers will always target the upper limits of a platform and they will do the same by writing games specifically designed to take advantage of the extra power and functionality provided by insanely fast apple Z chips. Build it and the gamers will come, just for the bragging rights alone.

    Sorry naysayers the writing is on the wall. 
    This is a solid post.  This migration will actually increase development of Mac software by third parties because now they can develop for the entire ecosystem in one shot.  They make full power applications for the mac and port versions for iPadOS and PhoneOS/TVOS if needed.  This provides greater economic incentive for Mac software development as they can access the entire Apple market where as now -- MacOS development for software stands on its own.  

    More importantly, If and I understand that this is still an If -- Apple can demonstrate the same performance in processing and graphics with this new architecture other companies like Microsoft, Google, etc. will want to do this for the advantages that ARM brings.  Following them will be OEMs who want to build hardware on the ARM architecture.  
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