I thought the same ... why not the US! ... then read that 6000 new jobs would be created. Average factory pay in India is about $2/hr - some say even robot cost average $4/hr! As long as slave labor wages are an option, factories that need this many humans will not open in the US.
Exactly right. Slavery is alive and well in this world. I thought Tim was better than this. Nope. All talk, no walk. When India gets too expensive, they'll build factories in Uganda.
I am from India and i agree with @JWSC and @Avs_Htx on this. You SHOULD NOT apply US living standards to India when you evaluate a job opportunity in India. By Indian standards, these are decent paying jobs for those who get it. This is NOT slavery. Slavery by Indian standards is about getting paid 20 cents per hour of work. $2 per hour gives a decent living for the people who are desperate to get a job.
Taking advantage of poor people's desperation, is not much different than slavery.
"Taking advantage of poor people's desperation"?
That's how the U.S. industrial might was built. But, instead of using existing labor, they imported labor from whatever part of the world was doing poorly. And, when they got uppity and did silly things like trying to create a union, they fired them and imported more. It was slave wages, 12 hour days, 6-7 days a week of hard, dangerous work. That method worked until Franklin Roosevelt came along -- then WW-II carried it out another decade and from there we just coasted, riding on the back of those who came before until Japan stepped in and put an end to it in the 80's.
The U.S. has yet to come to grips with any of that. Too much pride.
I thought the same ... why not the US! ... then read that 6000 new jobs would be created. Average factory pay in India is about $2/hr - some say even robot cost average $4/hr! As long as slave labor wages are an option, factories that need this many humans will not open in the US.
Exactly right. Slavery is alive and well in this world. I thought Tim was better than this. Nope. All talk, no walk. When India gets too expensive, they'll build factories in Uganda.
I am from India and i agree with @JWSC and @Avs_Htx on this. You SHOULD NOT apply US living standards to India when you evaluate a job opportunity in India. By Indian standards, these are decent paying jobs for those who get it. This is NOT slavery. Slavery by Indian standards is about getting paid 20 cents per hour of work. $2 per hour gives a decent living for the people who are desperate to get a job.
Taking advantage of poor people's desperation, is not much different than slavery.
"Taking advantage of poor people's desperation"?
That's how the U.S. industrial might was built. But, instead of using existing labor, they imported labor from whatever part of the world was doing poorly. And, when they got uppity and did silly things like trying to create a union, they fired them and imported more. It was slave wages, 12 hour days, 6-7 days a week of hard, dangerous work. That method worked until Franklin Roosevelt came along -- then WW-II carried it out another decade and from there we just coasted, riding on the back of those who came before until Japan stepped in and put an end to it in the 80's.
The U.S. has yet to come to grips with any of that. Too much pride.
Regardless of how the US was built, doesn't mean it is right to continue those practices today. Manufacturing and industrial unions have been around since the 50's. It was only 30 yrs ago when the largest employer was GM - high paying union jobs with safety and security. Today it is Walmart - low paying low skilled jobs because we outsourced all our manufacturing to China, India and Mexico (my Ford was made in Mexico, as are some Toyotas now). Who benefits from the cheap labor? It's not always the consumer, Apple's prices and profits are still sky high. The main beneficiaries are the executives whose bonuses are tied to profit and wall street.
I thought the same ... why not the US! ... then read that 6000 new jobs would be created. Average factory pay in India is about $2/hr - some say even robot cost average $4/hr! As long as slave labor wages are an option, factories that need this many humans will not open in the US.
Exactly right. Slavery is alive and well in this world. I thought Tim was better than this. Nope. All talk, no walk. When India gets too expensive, they'll build factories in Uganda.
I am from India and i agree with @JWSC and @Avs_Htx on this. You SHOULD NOT apply US living standards to India when you evaluate a job opportunity in India. By Indian standards, these are decent paying jobs for those who get it. This is NOT slavery. Slavery by Indian standards is about getting paid 20 cents per hour of work. $2 per hour gives a decent living for the people who are desperate to get a job.
Taking advantage of poor people's desperation, is not much different than slavery.
"Taking advantage of poor people's desperation"?
That's how the U.S. industrial might was built. But, instead of using existing labor, they imported labor from whatever part of the world was doing poorly. And, when they got uppity and did silly things like trying to create a union, they fired them and imported more. It was slave wages, 12 hour days, 6-7 days a week of hard, dangerous work. That method worked until Franklin Roosevelt came along -- then WW-II carried it out another decade and from there we just coasted, riding on the back of those who came before until Japan stepped in and put an end to it in the 80's.
The U.S. has yet to come to grips with any of that. Too much pride.
Regardless of how the US was built, doesn't mean it is right to continue those practices today. Manufacturing and industrial unions have been around since the 50's. It was only 30 yrs ago when the largest employer was GM - high paying union jobs with safety and security. Today it is Walmart - low paying low skilled jobs because we outsourced all our manufacturing to China, India and Mexico (my Ford was made in Mexico, as are some Toyotas now). Who benefits from the cheap labor? It's not always the consumer, Apple's prices and profits are still sky high. The main beneficiaries are the executives whose bonuses are tied to profit and wall street.
Let’s face it. US just don’t have as many skill labour in reasonable price. Sure, Apple can pay $3000USD/mo but how much the iPhone will cost then? And how much customer willing to pay?
Apple requires huge numbers of skill workers in seasonal setting. That alone will not happen in US. People will not willing to work in this setting in US, period.
Yes, you might think Apple abuse the China/India labour. But their country and city highly benefited from Apple. People get employed, city has high employment rate, rental rooms and restaurants get filled, countries get taxes and solve employment problems. Suppliers build factories and hire workers. Infrastructure are build and other industries also got benefits. I just don’t see how this is bad for the workers.
They can do it India but not the US... come on, Tim.
Yeah, right. My youngest son is a plant manager at a food processing facility (condiments, sauces, salad dressings). They pay between $15-$20/hr. When the stimulus checks came out he started having attendance problems. Seems more than a few preferred to sit on their asses at home until their stimulus checks ran out. Then they came back to work. The American work ethic in full view.
Here’s what I’d like to see Apple do: Sign a deal with a Native American tribe on their sovereign land for manufacturing and assembly work.
Um... you heard "Indian" and a random thought connective suddenly appeared?
They can do it India but not the US... come on, Tim.
Yes, they could do it. But then you’d be whining that your phone now costs twice as much.
Contrary to popular belief, retail prices have very little to do with labor costs. Manufacturing that's done in low wage countries is primarily motivated by higher profit levels, not the ability to offer consumers an attractive price.
Right, to begin with, writing “contrary to popular belief” doesn’t make it a fact. Secondly, it doesn’t actually matter because if labour costs increase then they WILL put the price up to maintain profit levels, so …
They can do it India but not the US... come on, Tim.
Yeah, right. My youngest son is a plant manager at a food processing facility (condiments, sauces, salad dressings). They pay between $15-$20/hr. When the stimulus checks came out he started having attendance problems. Seems more than a few preferred to sit on their asses at home until their stimulus checks ran out. Then they came back to work. The American work ethic in full view.
There was an interesting experiment Channel4 carried out a few years back. They got a load of English unemployed people and pitted then against a load of Eastern Europeans. The job: pick fruit for a week. The catch: the work starts at 6am.
The difference in the work ethic was staggering. By day 3, most of the English had failed to show up for work. The Europeans lasted the course.
It’s not enough to say “Bring jobs back to America”. America has to want the jobs.
Regardless of how the US was built, doesn't mean it is right to continue those practices today. Manufacturing and industrial unions have been around since the 50's. It was only 30 yrs ago when the largest employer was GM - high paying union jobs with safety and security. Today it is Walmart - low paying low skilled jobs because we outsourced all our manufacturing to China, India and Mexico (my Ford was made in Mexico, as are some Toyotas now). Who benefits from the cheap labor? It's not always the consumer, Apple's prices and profits are still sky high. The main beneficiaries are the executives whose bonuses are tied to profit and wall street.
Your mention of GM brings up another aspect to this question of US vs. Foreign labor costs. A few years ago the cost of each car sold included $4000 that went to employee pension plans. That’s one reason why the US car makers couldn’t compete with the foreign ones, at least while keeping manufacturing in the US. I’m for unions in general, but not when they create situations that hurt not help their members. The wages workers receive in each country is only a part of what the employer spends on them.
I thought the same ... why not the US! ... then read that 6000 new jobs would be created. Average factory pay in India is about $2/hr - some say even robot cost average $4/hr! As long as slave labor wages are an option, factories that need this many humans will not open in the US.
Exactly right. Slavery is alive and well in this world. I thought Tim was better than this. Nope. All talk, no walk. When India gets too expensive, they'll build factories in Uganda.
I am from India and i agree with @JWSC and @Avs_Htx on this. You SHOULD NOT apply US living standards to India when you evaluate a job opportunity in India. By Indian standards, these are decent paying jobs for those who get it. This is NOT slavery. Slavery by Indian standards is about getting paid 20 cents per hour of work. $2 per hour gives a decent living for the people who are desperate to get a job.
Taking advantage of poor people's desperation, is not much different than slavery.
"Taking advantage of poor people's desperation"?
That's how the U.S. industrial might was built. But, instead of using existing labor, they imported labor from whatever part of the world was doing poorly. And, when they got uppity and did silly things like trying to create a union, they fired them and imported more. It was slave wages, 12 hour days, 6-7 days a week of hard, dangerous work. That method worked until Franklin Roosevelt came along -- then WW-II carried it out another decade and from there we just coasted, riding on the back of those who came before until Japan stepped in and put an end to it in the 80's.
The U.S. has yet to come to grips with any of that. Too much pride.
Regardless of how the US was built, doesn't mean it is right to continue those practices today. Manufacturing and industrial unions have been around since the 50's. It was only 30 yrs ago when the largest employer was GM - high paying union jobs with safety and security. Today it is Walmart - low paying low skilled jobs because we outsourced all our manufacturing to China, India and Mexico (my Ford was made in Mexico, as are some Toyotas now). Who benefits from the cheap labor? It's not always the consumer, Apple's prices and profits are still sky high. The main beneficiaries are the executives whose bonuses are tied to profit and wall street.
It may not be "fair" or "right". Well no, change that to: "It's not "fair" or "right".
But then nature is not "fair" or "right". Ultimately, it always comes down to survival of the fittest.
And, as my post pointed out: The U.S. is no longer the fittest. Instead, it lost its edge. It's fat. It's lazy. And it cares more about the beach and having a nice car (make that multiple nice cars) than survival.
So, business did what business does: moved to the highest quality, lowest cost producers.
You can blame that on capitalism. Or government. Or whatever you want to blame it on. But it won't change it. It's just the way it is. Survival of the fittest.
Yes, we need to take care of our people -- that's socialism
But we also need to do things better, faster and cheaper than our competition. That's capitalism
The U.S. (as are most western countries) is a mixture of both -- and that's how it should be. The question is: what is the "right" mix?
In the 90's we tacitly recognized that American industry could no longer compete with foreign industry and globalization (where each country does what it does best) was the result. But, we forgot (or never came to grips with) what had happened and now we blame globalization for causing the problem. It didn't cause the problem, it was the solution.
Regardless of how the US was built, doesn't mean it is right to continue those practices today. Manufacturing and industrial unions have been around since the 50's. It was only 30 yrs ago when the largest employer was GM - high paying union jobs with safety and security. Today it is Walmart - low paying low skilled jobs because we outsourced all our manufacturing to China, India and Mexico (my Ford was made in Mexico, as are some Toyotas now). Who benefits from the cheap labor? It's not always the consumer, Apple's prices and profits are still sky high. The main beneficiaries are the executives whose bonuses are tied to profit and wall street.
Your mention of GM brings up another aspect to this question of US vs. Foreign labor costs. A few years ago the cost of each car sold included $4000 that went to employee pension plans. That’s one reason why the US car makers couldn’t compete with the foreign ones, at least while keeping manufacturing in the US. I’m for unions in general, but not when they create situations that hurt not help their members. The wages workers receive in each country is only a part of what the employer spends on them.
Another big slice, in addition to Cadillac pension plans is Cadillac health care plans. The U.S. healthcare system is FAR more expensive than any other in the world -- and U.S. employers bear most of its burden. Not only does that make them less competitive on the world market (no other country forces its private industry to bear that cost) it is also a root cause of Ageism: terminating workers after age 50 or 55 because they cost more than younger workers. Industry saves 3 ways by terminating older workers prematurely because: younger workers are cheaper to insure, cheaper to pay and they reduce pension costs by pushing older workers out prematurely.
(But, as Rayz2016 pointed out: it's also a willingness on the part of workers to do the job. American industry has both problems: paying too much for too little).
The 1950's & 1960's spoiled America. The 70's and 80's were a wake-up call. But denial is powerful thing.
Regardless of how the US was built, doesn't mean it is right to continue those practices today. Manufacturing and industrial unions have been around since the 50's. It was only 30 yrs ago when the largest employer was GM - high paying union jobs with safety and security. Today it is Walmart - low paying low skilled jobs because we outsourced all our manufacturing to China, India and Mexico (my Ford was made in Mexico, as are some Toyotas now). Who benefits from the cheap labor? It's not always the consumer, Apple's prices and profits are still sky high. The main beneficiaries are the executives whose bonuses are tied to profit and wall street.
Your mention of GM brings up another aspect to this question of US vs. Foreign labor costs. A few years ago the cost of each car sold included $4000 that went to employee pension plans. That’s one reason why the US car makers couldn’t compete with the foreign ones, at least while keeping manufacturing in the US. I’m for unions in general, but not when they create situations that hurt not help their members. The wages workers receive in each country is only a part of what the employer spends on them.
Another big slice, in addition to Cadillac pension plans is Cadillac health care plans. The U.S. healthcare system is FAR more expensive than any other in the world -- and U.S. employers bear most of its burden. Not only does that make them less competitive on the world market (no other country forces its private industry to bear that cost) it is also a root cause of Ageism: terminating workers after age 50 or 55 because they cost more than younger workers. Industry saves 3 ways by terminating older workers prematurely because: younger workers are cheaper to insure, cheaper to pay and they reduce pension costs by pushing older workers out prematurely.
(But, as Rayz2016 pointed out: it's also a willingness on the part of workers to do the job. American industry has both problems: paying too much for too little).
The 1950's & 1960's spoiled America. The 70's and 80's were a wake-up call. But denial is powerful thing.
Regarding pensions... the word "pension" will soon be an artifact of history, like horse drawn carriages and drive-in movie theaters. Very few companies offer traditional company-paid pension plans anymore. The boomers are probably the last generation to have even a working knowledge of what pensions plans are, or were. Even among the boomers, they've seen pension plans dead-ended at some point, never to be seen again. Responsibility for post-retirement income beyond the meager amount paid through Social Security is entirely on the worker. If you don't implement a plan for self-funding your retirement very early in your career, you will be working until the day you die. The only variable is when that day occurs. Even then, the astronomical costs of health care in a profit driven health care environment coupled with the onset of a catastrophic illness can blow up the best laid plans at any time, regardless of savings and preparedness. The safety net is very porous.
Outsourcing is explicitly about exploiting the deltas that exist between differing systems for your own benefit. Until there are no more exploitable deltas between systems, outsourcing will absolutely continue. Today it is Southeast Asia, China, and India and in 20 years it will be Africa and South America. Nothing will change this pattern until there are no more deltas and inequalities to exploit. I see nothing at all that will change this pattern, and especially nothing during our lifetime. Nationalism and xenophobia will only make matters worse and make it far more painful by delaying what is inevitable.
They can do it India but not the US... come on, Tim.
Yeah, right. My youngest son is a plant manager at a food processing facility (condiments, sauces, salad dressings). They pay between $15-$20/hr. When the stimulus checks came out he started having attendance problems. Seems more than a few preferred to sit on their asses at home until their stimulus checks ran out. Then they came back to work. The American work ethic in full view.
Here’s what I’d like to see Apple do: Sign a deal with a Native American tribe on their sovereign land for manufacturing and assembly work.
Um... you heard "Indian" and a random thought connective suddenly appeared?
Absolutely not. I’ve been thinking about what an advantage tribal territories and people theoretically have over the other US States AND overseas manufacturers. Much closer than China for distribution, the people are English speaking, they could form deals and partnerships with companies like Apple and they could locate factories on the lands at essentially zero tax rates... all massive competitive advantages.
All of this would have a multi-level positive effect for American industry while we slowly build back manufacturing and assembly capabilities in the US. There’s really no reason it couldn’t be done, all while using the very latest technology. And as far as I know, Native American lands do not have to adhere to regulations and wage laws of the US Federal government.
With some of the worst unemployment numbers in the whole US, their people could become fully employed and they could hire outsiders for additional labor and distribution. Win, win, win. There are huge opportunities in this country which have not even been looked at yet.
In India you can get a decent (by local standards) house for under US$4,000.
In the USA you can get a decent house for around US$150,000. In the San Francisco Bay Area it’s over US$1 million!
An Indian can live quite well on $2 an hour while an American can’t even pay his electric bill.
How much sense does it make to pay absurdly bloated American prices? You can give more people a better lifestyle in India than in the USA.
While I agree with most of what you say, just one correction. No, we CANNOT get even land for a house (let alone a house) for under US$4,000 even in villages, forget about cities. Land prices are fairly high in India, because that is the first and foremost aspiration for hundreds of millions of the people here who do not own a piece of land.
They can do it India but not the US... come on, Tim.
Yeah, right. My youngest son is a plant manager at a food processing facility (condiments, sauces, salad dressings). They pay between $15-$20/hr. When the stimulus checks came out he started having attendance problems. Seems more than a few preferred to sit on their asses at home until their stimulus checks ran out. Then they came back to work. The American work ethic in full view.
Here’s what I’d like to see Apple do: Sign a deal with a Native American tribe on their sovereign land for manufacturing and assembly work.
Um... you heard "Indian" and a random thought connective suddenly appeared?
Absolutely not. I’ve been thinking about what an advantage tribal territories and people theoretically have over the other US States AND overseas manufacturers. Much closer than China for distribution, the people are English speaking, they could form deals and partnerships with companies like Apple and they could locate factories on the lands at essentially zero tax rates... all massive competitive advantages.
All of this would have a multi-level positive effect for American industry while we slowly build back manufacturing and assembly capabilities in the US. There’s really no reason it couldn’t be done, all while using the very latest technology. And as far as I know, Native American lands do not have to adhere to regulations and wage laws of the US Federal government.
With some of the worst unemployment numbers in the whole US, their people could become fully employed and they could hire outsiders for additional labor and distribution. Win, win, win. There are huge opportunities in this country which have not even been looked at yet.
Good thought. But, ramifications from a recent Supreme Court decision suggest that native lands are subject to federal jurisdiction.
Specifically, an inmate claimed he could not have been tried in state court because his crime occurred on tribal lands which are not subject to state legal authority -- in this case Oklahoma. But, it was also pointed out that he could be retried in federal court for the same crime.
The interesting part is: the decision handed half of Oklahoma back to the native Indians including the state's 2nd largest city, Tulsa. It'll be interesting to see what they do with that. While building an iPhone plant may not be in the cards, they could, I suppose turn it into a giant marijuana farm.
Comments
Yes, you might think Apple abuse the China/India labour. But their country and city highly benefited from Apple. People get employed, city has high employment rate, rental rooms and restaurants get filled, countries get taxes and solve employment problems. Suppliers build factories and hire workers. Infrastructure are build and other industries also got benefits. I just don’t see how this is bad for the workers.
I am certain Tim Cook did not think of this brilliant suggestion as a possibility...
/s
(The "/s" makes me wonder: where is @solipsism?)
Outsourcing is explicitly about exploiting the deltas that exist between differing systems for your own benefit. Until there are no more exploitable deltas between systems, outsourcing will absolutely continue. Today it is Southeast Asia, China, and India and in 20 years it will be Africa and South America. Nothing will change this pattern until there are no more deltas and inequalities to exploit. I see nothing at all that will change this pattern, and especially nothing during our lifetime. Nationalism and xenophobia will only make matters worse and make it far more painful by delaying what is inevitable.
All of this would have a multi-level positive effect for American industry while we slowly build back manufacturing and assembly capabilities in the US. There’s really no reason it couldn’t be done, all while using the very latest technology. And as far as I know, Native American lands do not have to adhere to regulations and wage laws of the US Federal government.
With some of the worst unemployment numbers in the whole US, their people could become fully employed and they could hire outsiders for additional labor and distribution. Win, win, win. There are huge opportunities in this country which have not even been looked at yet.
An Indian can live quite well on $2 an hour while an American can’t even pay his electric bill.
While I agree with most of what you say, just one correction. No, we CANNOT get even land for a house (let alone a house) for under US$4,000 even in villages, forget about cities. Land prices are fairly high in India, because that is the first and foremost aspiration for hundreds of millions of the people here who do not own a piece of land.