Epic skirts Apple's 30% commission fee by implementing 'direct' payments

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 59
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,356member
    Without the App Store, indeed without Apple, very few of the developers would have a business.  Let’s all just bite the hands that feed them. 30% ain’t diddly squat. Is charging 9.99, versus 6.99 that big of a deal? Especially when you have a $700-$1100 phone?
    Statistics I've found claim as few as 1/10th of 1% of apps will turn out to be financially successful. Put a different way for every 10,000 mobile apps 9,999 of them won't be worth the time and money invested in creating them. That's not very encouraging and certainly counter to the popular belief that if you publish it they will come, the AppStore and Google Play making everyone a success, backyard millionaires.

    There are only two players who are guaranteed a profit, and a very nice one at that: Apple and Google. Everyone else better be pinching every penny they can because there is not much chance of being successful in an app store. Saving a few percent here and there will be the only way some of them will ever make it, and even then it's unlikely. Anyone sitting back in their recliner saying "30% ain't diddly squat" is no businessman. Apple and Google surely think 30% is far more than diddly squat, and their quarterly results prove it.

     https://www.startupgrind.com/blog/9999-in-10000-mobile-apps-will-fail-heres-why/
    edited August 2020 muthuk_vanalingamtmayFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 22 of 59
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    gatorguy said:
    Without the App Store, indeed without Apple, very few of the developers would have a business.  Let’s all just bite the hands that feed them. 30% ain’t diddly squat. Is charging 9.99, versus 6.99 that big of a deal? Especially when you have a $700-$1100 phone?
    Statistics I've found claim as few as 1/10th of 1% of apps will turn out to be financially successful. Put a different way for every 10,000 mobile apps 9,999 of them will fail to be worth the investment. that's not very encouraging and certainly counter to the popular belief that if you publish it they will come, the AppStore making everyone a success. There's only two players who are guaranteed a profit, and a very nice one at that: Apple and Google. Everyone else better be pinching every penny they can because there is no great chance of success. Saving a few percent here and there will be the only way some of them will ever make it. Anyone sitting back in their recliner saying "30% ain't didly squat" is no businessman. Apple and Google surely think 30% is far more than diddly squat, and their quarterly results prove it.
    That’s because there are a lot of “me too” apps and making something original and different (and useful or fun) is not easy. It’s becoming a mature market for the stuff that’s easy to develop and only outstanding apps will get recognition and business.
    BeatstmayFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 59
    cropr said:
    mjtomlin said:
    "Thousands of apps on the App Store approved by Apple accept direct payments, including commonly used apps like Amazon, Grubhub, Nike SNKRS, Best Buy, DoorDash, Fandango, McDonald's, Uber, Lyft, and StubHub. We think all developers should be free to support direct payments in all apps."

    Is that what you think? Haha. These types of developers are nothing more than parasites.

    Look, I get it and think Apple needs to do something about how the App Store is run, but these developers who want what amounts to a free ride are just being greedy and stupid. It is App Store revenue that allows Apple to give away free OS upgrades, which in turn allows Apple to push the platform (and developers) forward.

    Maybe Apple should create tiered fees for their Developer Program?
    $99/year to develop apps sold through the App Store - Apple gets their 30% cut. Basically the same as it is now.
    $999,999/year to develop apps sold via outside payment system - Apple gets nothing extra.

    Some of these larger developers could easily cover a million a year. And smaller developers can still start with a hundred dollar fee and if/when their app takes off, switch to the higher tier.


    I am an app developer, and you have absolutely no clue whatsoever about the business of apps.  You are blinded completely by the few big ones like Supercell (Clash of Clans, ...).  If Apple would $1M for to develop, there would no App store, Only major companies like Google, Facebook, ... would be willing to invest.   Statistics show that 99% of the apps are loss making.  The big profits are made by a few very profitable app companies.

    Just 3 examples of the real app business world:
    1. Of the 11 apps that I put on the App Store, 7 are loss making, 2 are about break even and 1 is making a nice profit.  This last app is profitable because it is multi-platform and because I can avoid the 30% Apple tax by charging the customer directly. 
    2. If I would only make a iOS version of my apps, all my apps would be loss making.   Developing an app simultaneously for iOS, Android and Web costs roughly 40% more than making it for iOS only, but the revenues are more than double. So the "fact" that Apple is offering me the market I was dreaming of, is a fake fact
    3. One of my colleague app business owners had spent 40.000 Euro in developing a new app, when Apple announced a change in its app developing guidelines.  His app could no longer pass the approval and he went broke 3 months later.   This is the business reality that you fail to understand.
    Like in any other business, an app business owner want to cut costs wherever possible.   This has nothing to do with greediness or stupidity but with normal business practice.

    I don't mind to pay a  commission to any business partner as long as that partner provides the right value for the commission.  Like all developers have discovered, the 30% cut Apple is imposing, does not provide the value it promises.    A survey among my paying customers revealed that none of them discovered the apps via the App Store, they did it via the direct marketing campaign I launch and paid.     Which basically means that Apple has just become a secure payment processor.  The market price of a secure payment processor is 2.7% and not 30%.   No wonder app developers try to avoid the Apple tax,
    .

    Nobody gives a damn about your repeated claims of being a developer while spewing all sorts of bullshit other developers know is false.

    What evidence do you have to claim that he is NOT a developer? Why don't you make arguments against the specific points? Too lazy? in that case, better don't bother to post.
  • Reply 24 of 59
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    cropr said:
    mjtomlin said:
    "Thousands of apps on the App Store approved by Apple accept direct payments, including commonly used apps like Amazon, Grubhub, Nike SNKRS, Best Buy, DoorDash, Fandango, McDonald's, Uber, Lyft, and StubHub. We think all developers should be free to support direct payments in all apps."

    Is that what you think? Haha. These types of developers are nothing more than parasites.

    Look, I get it and think Apple needs to do something about how the App Store is run, but these developers who want what amounts to a free ride are just being greedy and stupid. It is App Store revenue that allows Apple to give away free OS upgrades, which in turn allows Apple to push the platform (and developers) forward.

    Maybe Apple should create tiered fees for their Developer Program?
    $99/year to develop apps sold through the App Store - Apple gets their 30% cut. Basically the same as it is now.
    $999,999/year to develop apps sold via outside payment system - Apple gets nothing extra.

    Some of these larger developers could easily cover a million a year. And smaller developers can still start with a hundred dollar fee and if/when their app takes off, switch to the higher tier.


    I am an app developer, and you have absolutely no clue whatsoever about the business of apps.  You are blinded completely by the few big ones like Supercell (Clash of Clans, ...).  If Apple would $1M for to develop, there would no App store, Only major companies like Google, Facebook, ... would be willing to invest.   Statistics show that 99% of the apps are loss making.  The big profits are made by a few very profitable app companies.

    Just 3 examples of the real app business world:
    1. Of the 11 apps that I put on the App Store, 7 are loss making, 2 are about break even and 1 is making a nice profit.  This last app is profitable because it is multi-platform and because I can avoid the 30% Apple tax by charging the customer directly. 
    2. If I would only make a iOS version of my apps, all my apps would be loss making.   Developing an app simultaneously for iOS, Android and Web costs roughly 40% more than making it for iOS only, but the revenues are more than double. So the "fact" that Apple is offering me the market I was dreaming of, is a fake fact
    3. One of my colleague app business owners had spent 40.000 Euro in developing a new app, when Apple announced a change in its app developing guidelines.  His app could no longer pass the approval and he went broke 3 months later.   This is the business reality that you fail to understand.
    Like in any other business, an app business owner want to cut costs wherever possible.   This has nothing to do with greediness or stupidity but with normal business practice.

    I don't mind to pay a  commission to any business partner as long as that partner provides the right value for the commission.  Like all developers have discovered, the 30% cut Apple is imposing, does not provide the value it promises.    A survey among my paying customers revealed that none of them discovered the apps via the App Store, they did it via the direct marketing campaign I launch and paid.     Which basically means that Apple has just become a secure payment processor.  The market price of a secure payment processor is 2.7% and not 30%.   No wonder app developers try to avoid the Apple tax,
    .

    This is bullshit. Apple DID provide the dream platform for developers you're just spoiled rotten and entitled because of Apple's hard work and inventions. Before the App Store there wouldn't even be shelf space for your indie crap, that's if you had the capital to even manufacture your software.

    Androids knockoff App Store only exists because of Apple. So I find it funny when people praise Android without giving Apple credit.

    "If Apple would $1M for to develop"

    You didn't even read his comment right.

    "
    , the 30% cut Apple is imposing, does not provide the value it promises."

    Again entitled millenial bullsh**. If it weren't for Apple you'd easily spend $10,000 BEFORE your software was even available.
    tmaywatto_cobraDetnator
  • Reply 25 of 59
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    ITGUYINSD said:
    MacPro said:
    Epic: 'We have our cake and we eat it too.'
    Pretty much. Why are they on the store in the first place? Access to the huge base of customers it provides.
    They're on the store in the first place because they have no other option to distribute their app, thanks to Apple "guidelines".  Apple has boxed app developers into one place to distribute their apps.  Because of that, I think it is perfectly fair for an app to give users a choice as to the method of payment.  Of course, greedy Apple will think otherwise.

    Yeah "greedy Apple" who developed and poured billions into the realization of the App Store which has democratized opportunity and made more people rich than any industry in the world. What a dumb sh**.

    Why do people think developers deserve free rent on Apple's intellectual property?
    DancingMonkeyswatto_cobraDetnator
  • Reply 26 of 59
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,356member
    cropr said:
    mjtomlin said:
    "Thousands of apps on the App Store approved by Apple accept direct payments, including commonly used apps like Amazon, Grubhub, Nike SNKRS, Best Buy, DoorDash, Fandango, McDonald's, Uber, Lyft, and StubHub. We think all developers should be free to support direct payments in all apps."

    Is that what you think? Haha. These types of developers are nothing more than parasites.

    Look, I get it and think Apple needs to do something about how the App Store is run, but these developers who want what amounts to a free ride are just being greedy and stupid. It is App Store revenue that allows Apple to give away free OS upgrades, which in turn allows Apple to push the platform (and developers) forward.

    Maybe Apple should create tiered fees for their Developer Program?
    $99/year to develop apps sold through the App Store - Apple gets their 30% cut. Basically the same as it is now.
    $999,999/year to develop apps sold via outside payment system - Apple gets nothing extra.

    Some of these larger developers could easily cover a million a year. And smaller developers can still start with a hundred dollar fee and if/when their app takes off, switch to the higher tier.


    I am an app developer, and you have absolutely no clue whatsoever about the business of apps.  You are blinded completely by the few big ones like Supercell (Clash of Clans, ...).  If Apple would $1M for to develop, there would no App store, Only major companies like Google, Facebook, ... would be willing to invest.   Statistics show that 99% of the apps are loss making.  The big profits are made by a few very profitable app companies.

    Just 3 examples of the real app business world:
    1. Of the 11 apps that I put on the App Store, 7 are loss making, 2 are about break even and 1 is making a nice profit.  This last app is profitable because it is multi-platform and because I can avoid the 30% Apple tax by charging the customer directly. 
    2. If I would only make a iOS version of my apps, all my apps would be loss making.   Developing an app simultaneously for iOS, Android and Web costs roughly 40% more than making it for iOS only, but the revenues are more than double. So the "fact" that Apple is offering me the market I was dreaming of, is a fake fact
    3. One of my colleague app business owners had spent 40.000 Euro in developing a new app, when Apple announced a change in its app developing guidelines.  His app could no longer pass the approval and he went broke 3 months later.   This is the business reality that you fail to understand.
    Like in any other business, an app business owner want to cut costs wherever possible.   This has nothing to do with greediness or stupidity but with normal business practice.

    I don't mind to pay a  commission to any business partner as long as that partner provides the right value for the commission.  Like all developers have discovered, the 30% cut Apple is imposing, does not provide the value it promises.    A survey among my paying customers revealed that none of them discovered the apps via the App Store, they did it via the direct marketing campaign I launch and paid.     Which basically means that Apple has just become a secure payment processor.  The market price of a secure payment processor is 2.7% and not 30%.   No wonder app developers try to avoid the Apple tax,
    .

    Nobody gives a damn about your repeated claims of being a developer while spewing all sorts of bullshit other developers know is false.

    What evidence do you have to claim that he is NOT a developer? Why don't you make arguments against the specific points? Too lazy? in that case, better don't bother to post.
    Don't bother, it's just Eric being Eric. Normally the word "lie" would be in there so consider his a mild response. :)
    muthuk_vanalingamavon b7
  • Reply 27 of 59
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    gatorguy said:
    Without the App Store, indeed without Apple, very few of the developers would have a business.  Let’s all just bite the hands that feed them. 30% ain’t diddly squat. Is charging 9.99, versus 6.99 that big of a deal? Especially when you have a $700-$1100 phone?
    Statistics I've found claim as few as 1/10th of 1% of apps will turn out to be financially successful. Put a different way for every 10,000 mobile apps 9,999 of them won't be worth the time and money invested in creating them. That's not very encouraging and certainly counter to the popular belief that if you publish it they will come, the AppStore and Google Play making everyone a success, backyard millionaires.

    There are only two players who are guaranteed a profit, and a very nice one at that: Apple and Google. Everyone else better be pinching every penny they can because there is not much chance of being successful in an app store. Saving a few percent here and there will be the only way some of them will ever make it, and even then it's unlikely. Anyone sitting back in their recliner saying "30% ain't diddly squat" is no businessman. Apple and Google surely think 30% is far more than diddly squat, and their quarterly results prove it.

     https://www.startupgrind.com/blog/9999-in-10000-mobile-apps-will-fail-heres-why/


    Apple inventing the App Store opened the gate for everyone. So garbage will enter but garbage should not be rewarded.

    And thanks to Apple's hard work, Google is making money off the lazy knockoffs Apple worked so hard to create.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 59
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    Kicking Fortnite out of the App Store is what Epic wants. 


    watto_cobra
  • Reply 29 of 59
    Without the App Store, indeed without Apple, very few of the developers would have a business.  Let’s all just bite the hands that feed them. 30% ain’t diddly squat. Is charging 9.99, versus 6.99 that big of a deal? Especially when you have a $700-$1100 phone?
    This is manifestly not true. I wish people would stop saying this. There were already TONS of application developers successfully selling their software for PC and macOS via the web. Lots of them merely shifted to iOS development. What happened is that a lot of programmers tried to become independent app developers rather than working for corporations. The vast majority of them failed and they wound up taking jobs writing and maintaining code for "the man" anyway with the luckiest of them parlaying their experiences writing apps for the app store into writing and maintaining mobile apps for their employers. People who just recite Apple talking points blindly reveal themselves as not knowing that much about the tech world at all. The app store hasn't become anything close to the revolution for independent programmers that Apple claims. It might have been 10 years ago but now mobile apps are dominated by a few large software companies just like PC applications are, and in many cases it is the same companies.
  • Reply 30 of 59
    bloggerblogbloggerblog Posts: 2,475member
    One thing to keep in mind is that 86% of apps on the AppStore pay nothing, and 30% is not exorbitant. Before iPhone the average app on BB costed $40! Apple brought that down to a dollar! 
    Anyways, I actually came here to say that Apple blew it in the gaming market back when they used to promise game developers features and not deliver. It got so bad that the developers of Halo made a deal with the devil and joined Xbox. Halo was the killer app that made Xbox successful. Now Apple is trying to make a change and it’s gonna be a hell of a ride for them. 
    randominternetperson
  • Reply 31 of 59
    Except that his experiences are corroborated by tons of other developers as well as by independent studies frequently reported in the media. Meanwhile all the other side has Apple public relations missives happily disseminated by all the journalism and creative writing grads in the media who love Apple products and know nothing about the business world and know nothing about anything in tech that doesn't appear on their iPhone, iPad or iMac as an app or service.

    .ericthehalfbee said:
    cropr said:
    mjtomlin said:
    "Thousands of apps on the App Store approved by Apple accept direct payments, including commonly used apps like Amazon, Grubhub, Nike SNKRS, Best Buy, DoorDash, Fandango, McDonald's, Uber, Lyft, and StubHub. We think all developers should be free to support direct payments in all apps."

    Is that what you think? Haha. These types of developers are nothing more than parasites.

    Look, I get it and think Apple needs to do something about how the App Store is run, but these developers who want what amounts to a free ride are just being greedy and stupid. It is App Store revenue that allows Apple to give away free OS upgrades, which in turn allows Apple to push the platform (and developers) forward.

    Maybe Apple should create tiered fees for their Developer Program?
    $99/year to develop apps sold through the App Store - Apple gets their 30% cut. Basically the same as it is now.
    $999,999/year to develop apps sold via outside payment system - Apple gets nothing extra.

    Some of these larger developers could easily cover a million a year. And smaller developers can still start with a hundred dollar fee and if/when their app takes off, switch to the higher tier.


    I am an app developer, and you have absolutely no clue whatsoever about the business of apps.  You are blinded completely by the few big ones like Supercell (Clash of Clans, ...).  If Apple would $1M for to develop, there would no App store, Only major companies like Google, Facebook, ... would be willing to invest.   Statistics show that 99% of the apps are loss making.  The big profits are made by a few very profitable app companies.

    Just 3 examples of the real app business world:
    1. Of the 11 apps that I put on the App Store, 7 are loss making, 2 are about break even and 1 is making a nice profit.  This last app is profitable because it is multi-platform and because I can avoid the 30% Apple tax by charging the customer directly. 
    2. If I would only make a iOS version of my apps, all my apps would be loss making.   Developing an app simultaneously for iOS, Android and Web costs roughly 40% more than making it for iOS only, but the revenues are more than double. So the "fact" that Apple is offering me the market I was dreaming of, is a fake fact
    3. One of my colleague app business owners had spent 40.000 Euro in developing a new app, when Apple announced a change in its app developing guidelines.  His app could no longer pass the approval and he went broke 3 months later.   This is the business reality that you fail to understand.
    Like in any other business, an app business owner want to cut costs wherever possible.   This has nothing to do with greediness or stupidity but with normal business practice.

    I don't mind to pay a  commission to any business partner as long as that partner provides the right value for the commission.  Like all developers have discovered, the 30% cut Apple is imposing, does not provide the value it promises.    A survey among my paying customers revealed that none of them discovered the apps via the App Store, they did it via the direct marketing campaign I launch and paid.     Which basically means that Apple has just become a secure payment processor.  The market price of a secure payment processor is 2.7% and not 30%.   No wonder app developers try to avoid the Apple tax,
    .

    Nobody gives a damn about your repeated claims of being a developer while spewing all sorts of bullshit other developers know is false.

    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 32 of 59
    I find it amusing that a company that sells access to "skins" and in-game items that literally have a marginal cost of zero dollars, would use the term "exorbitant" to describe anything other than their own pricing scheme.
    SpamSandwichbloggerblogFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 59
    gatorguy said:
    cropr said:
    mjtomlin said:
    "Thousands of apps on the App Store approved by Apple accept direct payments, including commonly used apps like Amazon, Grubhub, Nike SNKRS, Best Buy, DoorDash, Fandango, McDonald's, Uber, Lyft, and StubHub. We think all developers should be free to support direct payments in all apps."

    Is that what you think? Haha. These types of developers are nothing more than parasites.

    Look, I get it and think Apple needs to do something about how the App Store is run, but these developers who want what amounts to a free ride are just being greedy and stupid. It is App Store revenue that allows Apple to give away free OS upgrades, which in turn allows Apple to push the platform (and developers) forward.

    Maybe Apple should create tiered fees for their Developer Program?
    $99/year to develop apps sold through the App Store - Apple gets their 30% cut. Basically the same as it is now.
    $999,999/year to develop apps sold via outside payment system - Apple gets nothing extra.

    Some of these larger developers could easily cover a million a year. And smaller developers can still start with a hundred dollar fee and if/when their app takes off, switch to the higher tier.


    I am an app developer, and you have absolutely no clue whatsoever about the business of apps.  You are blinded completely by the few big ones like Supercell (Clash of Clans, ...).  If Apple would $1M for to develop, there would no App store, Only major companies like Google, Facebook, ... would be willing to invest.   Statistics show that 99% of the apps are loss making.  The big profits are made by a few very profitable app companies.

    Just 3 examples of the real app business world:
    1. Of the 11 apps that I put on the App Store, 7 are loss making, 2 are about break even and 1 is making a nice profit.  This last app is profitable because it is multi-platform and because I can avoid the 30% Apple tax by charging the customer directly. 
    2. If I would only make a iOS version of my apps, all my apps would be loss making.   Developing an app simultaneously for iOS, Android and Web costs roughly 40% more than making it for iOS only, but the revenues are more than double. So the "fact" that Apple is offering me the market I was dreaming of, is a fake fact
    3. One of my colleague app business owners had spent 40.000 Euro in developing a new app, when Apple announced a change in its app developing guidelines.  His app could no longer pass the approval and he went broke 3 months later.   This is the business reality that you fail to understand.
    Like in any other business, an app business owner want to cut costs wherever possible.   This has nothing to do with greediness or stupidity but with normal business practice.

    I don't mind to pay a  commission to any business partner as long as that partner provides the right value for the commission.  Like all developers have discovered, the 30% cut Apple is imposing, does not provide the value it promises.    A survey among my paying customers revealed that none of them discovered the apps via the App Store, they did it via the direct marketing campaign I launch and paid.     Which basically means that Apple has just become a secure payment processor.  The market price of a secure payment processor is 2.7% and not 30%.   No wonder app developers try to avoid the Apple tax,
    .

    Nobody gives a damn about your repeated claims of being a developer while spewing all sorts of bullshit other developers know is false.

    What evidence do you have to claim that he is NOT a developer? Why don't you make arguments against the specific points? Too lazy? in that case, better don't bother to post.
    Don't bother, it's just Eric being Eric. Normally the word "lie" would be in there so consider his a mild response. :)
    :) Thanks for the info. I usually remember whom to ignore, but Eric was not in my muscle memory.
  • Reply 34 of 59
    seankillseankill Posts: 566member
    This is a battle Apple will eventually lose (although I take their side). I tend to expect the Democrats to take more control this election year and to start turning on the large oil, banking, and telecom companies. I only hope they add tech companies to the list; they should get a taste of their own medicine. Disclaimer: I am not pleased with either party.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 35 of 59
    "Thousands of apps on the App Store approved by Apple accept direct payments, including commonly used apps like Amazon, Grubhub, Nike SNKRS, Best Buy, DoorDash, Fandango, McDonald's, Uber, Lyft, and StubHub. We think all developers should be free to support direct payments in all apps."

    While it may be true that the companies mentioned above don't have to pay the 30 percent transaction fee, there's an important distinction to be made. Companies like DoorDash, McDonald's, Uber, and Best Buy provide users with physical goods.

    Epic, on the other hand, sells digital goods.
    I pay my Xfinity internet bill through their app on my iPhone. I don't see anything different between that and what Epic is doing. Xfinity is not providing me with any physical goods. I'm sure Xfinity doesn't pay Apply the 30% commission I pay through their iPhone app. 
    Detnator
  • Reply 36 of 59
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    It_is_me said:
    "Thousands of apps on the App Store approved by Apple accept direct payments, including commonly used apps like Amazon, Grubhub, Nike SNKRS, Best Buy, DoorDash, Fandango, McDonald's, Uber, Lyft, and StubHub. We think all developers should be free to support direct payments in all apps."

    While it may be true that the companies mentioned above don't have to pay the 30 percent transaction fee, there's an important distinction to be made. Companies like DoorDash, McDonald's, Uber, and Best Buy provide users with physical goods.

    Epic, on the other hand, sells digital goods.
    I pay my Xfinity internet bill through their app on my iPhone. I don't see anything different between that and what Epic is doing. Xfinity is not providing me with any physical goods. I'm sure Xfinity doesn't pay Apply the 30% commission I pay through their iPhone app. 
    How do you know?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 37 of 59
    It_is_me said:
    "Thousands of apps on the App Store approved by Apple accept direct payments, including commonly used apps like Amazon, Grubhub, Nike SNKRS, Best Buy, DoorDash, Fandango, McDonald's, Uber, Lyft, and StubHub. We think all developers should be free to support direct payments in all apps."

    While it may be true that the companies mentioned above don't have to pay the 30 percent transaction fee, there's an important distinction to be made. Companies like DoorDash, McDonald's, Uber, and Best Buy provide users with physical goods.

    Epic, on the other hand, sells digital goods.
    I pay my Xfinity internet bill through their app on my iPhone. I don't see anything different between that and what Epic is doing. Xfinity is not providing me with any physical goods. I'm sure Xfinity doesn't pay Apply the 30% commission I pay through their iPhone app. 
    How do you know?
    It's common sense and simple math. Xfinity doesn't have the profit margin to pay Apple 30% of every internet/phone/cable/homes security service bill that is paid through their iPhone app. If Apple required that, Xfinity simply wouldn't allow the feature.  
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 38 of 59
    cropr said:
    mjtomlin said:
    "Thousands of apps on the App Store approved by Apple accept direct payments, including commonly used apps like Amazon, Grubhub, Nike SNKRS, Best Buy, DoorDash, Fandango, McDonald's, Uber, Lyft, and StubHub. We think all developers should be free to support direct payments in all apps."

    Is that what you think? Haha. These types of developers are nothing more than parasites.

    Look, I get it and think Apple needs to do something about how the App Store is run, but these developers who want what amounts to a free ride are just being greedy and stupid. It is App Store revenue that allows Apple to give away free OS upgrades, which in turn allows Apple to push the platform (and developers) forward.

    Maybe Apple should create tiered fees for their Developer Program?
    $99/year to develop apps sold through the App Store - Apple gets their 30% cut. Basically the same as it is now.
    $999,999/year to develop apps sold via outside payment system - Apple gets nothing extra.

    Some of these larger developers could easily cover a million a year. And smaller developers can still start with a hundred dollar fee and if/when their app takes off, switch to the higher tier.


    I am an app developer, and you have absolutely no clue whatsoever about the business of apps.  You are blinded completely by the few big ones like Supercell (Clash of Clans, ...).  If Apple would $1M for to develop, there would no App store, Only major companies like Google, Facebook, ... would be willing to invest.   Statistics show that 99% of the apps are loss making.  The big profits are made by a few very profitable app companies.

    Just 3 examples of the real app business world:
    1. Of the 11 apps that I put on the App Store, 7 are loss making, 2 are about break even and 1 is making a nice profit.  This last app is profitable because it is multi-platform and because I can avoid the 30% Apple tax by charging the customer directly. 
    2. If I would only make a iOS version of my apps, all my apps would be loss making.   Developing an app simultaneously for iOS, Android and Web costs roughly 40% more than making it for iOS only, but the revenues are more than double. So the "fact" that Apple is offering me the market I was dreaming of, is a fake fact
    3. One of my colleague app business owners had spent 40.000 Euro in developing a new app, when Apple announced a change in its app developing guidelines.  His app could no longer pass the approval and he went broke 3 months later.   This is the business reality that you fail to understand.
    Like in any other business, an app business owner want to cut costs wherever possible.   This has nothing to do with greediness or stupidity but with normal business practice.

    I don't mind to pay a  commission to any business partner as long as that partner provides the right value for the commission.  Like all developers have discovered, the 30% cut Apple is imposing, does not provide the value it promises.    A survey among my paying customers revealed that none of them discovered the apps via the App Store, they did it via the direct marketing campaign I launch and paid.     Which basically means that Apple has just become a secure payment processor.  The market price of a secure payment processor is 2.7% and not 30%.   No wonder app developers try to avoid the Apple tax,
    .
    Well if what you say is true,  you really suck at business.  Not sure why someone would make an app, find out they lose money doing it, and then say hey, I think I'll make 10 more.  


    If your revenues are almost double making android apps and web apps, it looks like you have a very clear business plan to me.   You should maximize your time to earnings ratio by not wasting your time developing for iOS.   Spend that extra time on your 12th app and become rich side loading your app on android or spending some money on advertising to get people to buy on your website.

    A real developer would know that Apple supplies a lot more than just payment processing.  Who develops and maintains that OS and devices you sell your apps on.   Who supplies, maintains, and creates new API's that you use to develop your apps on.  Who is providing you with shelf space on their store giving you access to all their customers.    The only thing you accomplish by downplaying what Apple provides is that you prove you're a greedy developer that thinks only what you do is valuable. 
  • Reply 39 of 59
    dlodlo Posts: 1member
    The real issue is that a 30% commission is ridiculous, and it hurts both developers and consumers. We shouldn't be paying 30% higher prices for everything just for the privilege of purchasing through the App Store. Apps and developers are what make the iPhone valuable, not the other way around. An iPhone without apps is just a phone. 

    Glad Epic is taking a stand to bring awareness to the middlemen jacking up software prices. Luckily for Epic, they don't need Apple to market their games, since Fortnite's success has nothing to do with the iPhone. It reached the highest annual revenue for any game in history in 2019 primarily through PC and console sales. 

    Unfortunately, Google and Apple are holding the line together, so it's up to consumers to stop purchasing digital content and subscriptions through their app stores. Most developers offer web-based options at 20-30% reduced prices that they're not allowed to advertise in the app. Maybe once Apple/Google realize that they're actually losing more money and creating a worse experience for their products - they will finally change their commission model to something far more reasonable (like the Epic Games Store 88/12% split, which is better for everyone and the platform still makes a profit after operating costs).
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 40 of 59
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,356member
    mjtomlin said:
    tyler82 said:
    Looks like developers found a loop hole to get out of paying "taxes."

    Uh-oh, Apple apologists are stuck in a quandary on this one!

    Umm, nope. This isn't a "loop hole", it's blatant violation of the developer agreement. Did you read the article?
    Well seems as tho I owe you "I was wrong and you were right" @mjtomlin ;

    Apple did react very quickly, and Epic already knew they would with a lawsuit ready to be filed the moment their app was removed. Kudos sir. 
    muthuk_vanalingam
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