About time. They are our devices, we should be able to run whatever we want on them including a competing app store. If Apple thinks 30% is fair then it can try competing with app stores where the cut is 10% and see how well it does. What if a $10 app cost only $8 on another app store? How many customers would stick with Apple then?
Why are you not suggesting to compare 30% with an alternative App Store with no fee at all? Of course lower price will win. But there are costs to run the store; and other related costs like developing Swift, xCode etc.
Developers have to pay $99 to be allowed to develop & publish apps. That fee goes towards developing developer tools.
I've never agreed with Apple claiming a portion of all sales from an app even if those sales don't go through the AppStore. Look at it this way. I have a store. You want to sell something, a computer let's say, in my store. I can and should get a cut of the price for my trouble of hosting your product That's fair. But should I then demand a cut of everything else that is bought with that computer? Oh and don't go around saying if they don't like it they can go elsewhere, to Android for example. Apple has the only store where developers make significant money.
All of the above is mere DISAGREEMENT WITH RULES. It's more about FAIRNESS in the minds of some than FREE MARKET CAPITALISM.
If I tell you, "you can sell your Dell in my store but I get a 30% cut of the computer sale and 30% of any sales you make with that computer," it sounds harsh and unfair until you realize you don't need to sell your Dell computer in that store! You could POSSIBLY sell it elsewhere. Now if somebody like DAslseth claims, "it would NOT sell well elsewhere," that very well could be true. But in that case, you need to use your brain and admit, "I should NOT be selling a Dell!"
In other words, stop blaming others like Apple for your own entrepreneurial incompetence.
If you can't make it as an app developer in light of the existing rules on Apple's app store, and if indeed that's the ONLY store you could possible sell apps, then become something else! Get hired at FaceBook or Google or Microsoft or IBM or even Apple as a programmer to use your skills another way. If you are a great app developer, you should be able to get those high paying jobs. And since your complain is about MONEY in the first place, getting a high paying job should eliminate your complaints!
The core of this fight centers on getting pissed off at an organization which found success in the American FREE MARKET. Apple is America's home grown success story that we should celebrate, not lambast!
Just because Apple's App Store really is the only app store that makes good money these days in no way makes Apple a monopoly insofar as they sell more than just apps. The FREE MARKET decided that Apple's App Store is really THE store to go to if you want to make money on apps. But again, that does not dictate that YOU must make apps. To make or not to make an app is a FREE CHOICE. If you choose to get pissed off and cry like a baby to lawyers and Congress because you want to make apps but DISLIKE THE RULES, should the world suddenly change to suit YOU?
This is why looting is so addictive among people who feel they've been treated unfairly. They see one guy break a store window and steal, then they convince themselves they too are entitled to it, so they barge right it and steal something from that store too. It then becomes a free-for-all. That's what some developers are trying to do now by breaking the glass of Apple's App Store. They want what they want and they will use whatever means necessary to get it. What started out as mere "fairness" leads them to take what is not theirs to take.
It goes without saying we love Apple and most people will defend Apple in a forum like this. And as an AAPL investor, I want Apple to succeed, not the silly people suing Apple. But when you think about all this objectively, how you ultimately think about this topic boils down to whether you are in favor of FREE MARKET CAPITALISM or instead in favor of some form of SOCIALISM or even COMMUNISM. If you get Big Brother to force Apple to change it's app store policies, that is NOT "free market capitalism." "Fairness" is a great concept, but it's not fundamental to how Capitalism works.
Just a jump on the “i want my way” or else bandwagon.
Rules exist for a reason. Chaos is prevented, business is made, and products are better.
With the recent whiners who want to pretend that Apple doesn’t deserve their storefront and hosting / delivery fees, even the guys who really should know better are jumping in. Shameful.
Reminds me of all the “we don’t need law enforcement” stuff going on.
Yes. We do. Get back in line and stop stealing.
Those people mean "We don't need cops getting paid to kill people" which is actually happening. Easy to criticize from the comfort of Mr.
unfortunately there has been some injustice. But there has also been far far more good. We need lee and enforcement. There was a man recently who disarmed the cops and fired a taser at the cop. You don’t want to get hurt, don’t try to hurt a police officer. If you did something wrong, get ready to go to jail. Don’t try to fight the cops. That’s asking for trouble. Police have their lives in danger every day from CRIMINALS. actual honest to goodness bad people. Do they are trained to react quickly and decisively. The bad guys aren’t allowed to win. Sorry.
Now to those instances where there have legit been bad cops, that’s tragic and there should be a federal description of what’s acceptable and not and repercussions applied to fit the crime.
The answer isn’t defunding law enforcement. That’s just stupid and asking for the criminals to run rampant in your neighborhood just like Seattle. No thank you.
Police are good. And good to have. The nation would fall apart with such operations.
Sadly you’ve had bad people get into places of authority all over the map. Law enforcement, judges, politicians who can’t even do basic math pushing deals that would bankrupt the poor they claim to serve, leaders who are publicly anti-Semitic, military members who’ve abused their power to terrorize, CEOs and moguls who use their power to prey on girls and women, and celebrities who prey on children under the cover of twitter code words and trips to isolated islands.
The answer is not to cancel the police, cancel business, cancel Hollywood, cancel politics, etc.
the answer is to stand by the law, and enforce it.
Period.
It’s the criminals who benefit from no law enforcement. And we are seeing thst in action with these terrorist outbreaks disguised as protests.
In apples case, there are legal and binding agreements with rules. If you are a partner then you abide by it or pay the consequence. It doesn’t matter how “outraged” you get, how msny friends back you up, or how loud you get. It is what it is and you are still in the wrong. Good thing there are laws in place revenging the rogues from taking Apple by force and doing whatever they want with them.
They won’t be able to bilk kids out of their Proactiv money to buy cool outfits and weapons for their favorite game! They’re just a small mom and pop developer who brought in a meager $1.8 billion last year from this game! Nasty Apple! Totally unfair!
Even if Apple had a monopoly Epic still has no case. Of course anti-Apple Americans will try to screw Apple anyway.
iKnockoffs are having a hard time running Fortnite and Epic knows this. They're stupid for biting the hand that feeds them. I think Apple needs to go on a full on assault on anyone who tries screwing them over.
Man, nothing you said here was true. Yes, Mercedes-Benz exclusively manufactures and sells Mercedes-Benz cars. But I can buy any parts for that car from anywhere. I can put any gas in that car that I want. I can replace the Mercedes stereo and infotainment system in that car with another one. If I want to replace the locks and alarm system, I can get a third party to do so. If I want to buy my own insurance instead of the Mercedez-Benz warranty, I can. If I want another financier instead of Mercedes-Benz, I can. This means that after I buy - and certainly after I pay off - my Mercedez-Benz, I have 100% control over it. This IS NOT the case with iPhones, iPads, Apple TVs and Apple Watches. This IS, however, the case with macOS devices. So even from the perspective of someone who is sympathetic to Apple's argument - which I am - THIS IS A HORRIBLE EXAMPLE SO STOP USING IT.
Second, Android phones ARE NOT HAVING A HARD TIME RUNNING FORTNITE. If Android games couldn't run Fortnite - which isn't even a particularly demanding mobile game - then why on earth would Android have such large market share? Even in wealthy, affluent countries like America, Canada and western Europe? Why on earth would anyone pay $1300 for a Samsung Galaxy Note 20 Ultra or $2000 for a Samsung Galaxy Z Flip if it couldn't run Fortnite? Let me put it another way ... why would Android gaming be an industry with TENS OF BILLIONS IN ANNUAL REVENUE if the devices couldn't run the games? Who is making all these games for devices that can't run them? Who is buying all these games that their devices can't run?
Third, Epic IS NOT biting the hand that feeds it. Fortnite runs on PC (where Epic Games has a long-running battle with Steam) and macOS. Fortnite runs on Playstation. Fortnite runs on Nintendo Switch. Fortnite runs on XBox. AND FORTNITE RUNS ON ANDROID. So take away iOS AND FORTNITE IS STILL ONE OF THE BIGGEST, MOST LUCRATIVE AND SUCCESSFUL VIDEO GAMES IN HISTORY. Epic is doing this PRECISELY BECAUSE A) Apple platforms ARE NOT the reason for their success and they do not rely on Apple as a critical revenue stream. The software companies that DO rely on the App Store are infamous for saying "how high?" whenever Apple says jump, and no matter how much they resent Apple for it they keep quiet about it because were Apple to "review" their app for 30 days (for example) that would wreck them financially. But Epic knows that they will be filthy rich even if they are never on Apple hardware again. They know that the actual fans of this game who spend tons of money on IAPs will simply play it on another platform. They will play it on PC or on a console when at home. On the go, they will just buy a Nintendo Switch/Switch Lite or get a cheap Android device and use their iPhone for tethering their mobile data to it.
Man, do you have absolutely no shame at all saying things that are so thoroughly, completely untrue?
The complaint alleges that Apple has become a "behemoth seeking to control markets, block competition and stifle innovation," and claims that the company's size and reach "far exceeds that of any technology monopolist in history."
A behemoth with how much of the mobile phone market exactly? Of the desktop market? Of the laptop market? Epic just wants free access to customers. This is a dead suit. Every reseller/store pays a wholesale price. And in grocery stores you also pay a shelving fee. If I won't pay that Safeway won't carry my product. So good luck here...
Yes. It is amazing how these companies make the claim that Apple is monopolizing the market for Apple products. Even more amazing that some politicians are swallowing this line. Maybe they should turn their attention to Sony for monopolizing the market for Sony game consoles. Or Merceds Benz for their lock on the market for Mercedes Benz cars. Ridiculously stupid thinking.
The Apple App Store is a subordinate market. It exists solely because of the iPhone and iPad. If Apple has a monopoly in the smartphone and tablet market, then sure, Epic has a case because that is the only way consumers can buy and play their games. But with Android out there, Epic cannot claim that Apple is shutting them out of the market. If they must sue someone, maybe they should sue Google and the Android phone manufacturers for putting out such lousy product that nobody wants to play Fortnite through their platform. But that's not true either because a lot of Android phone owners play Fortnite.
Exactly. One could just as well argue that Epic should allow other game developers to sell games on the Epic store, and do so for free. But of course Epic will not allow that because it's their store. And they would be right in doing so because their store is not an industry within the meaning of antitrust law.
1. Epic DOES allow other developers to sell their games in the Epic store. 2. While Epic doesn't do so "for free" - and claims that they want to be in the App Store "for free" are simply false - they charge much less and offer much better terms than Steam, Origin, EA and the other major console stores. The same rhetoric they are aiming at Apple now, they aimed at Steam a few years ago. So yeah, please endeavour to keep your ripostes true, OK? And again, I say this as someone who is generally sympathetic to Apple on this.
About time. They are our devices, we should be able to run whatever we want on them including a competing app store. If Apple thinks 30% is fair then it can try competing with app stores where the cut is 10% and see how well it does. What if a $10 app cost only $8 on another app store? How many customers would stick with Apple then?
Why are you not suggesting to compare 30% with an alternative App Store with no fee at all? Of course lower price will win. But there are costs to run the store; and other related costs like developing Swift, xCode etc.
Developers have to pay $99 to be allowed to develop & publish apps. That fee goes towards developing developer tools.
The annual $99, which even I (gladly) pay, doesn’t mean that if I have a massively popular free app which Apple hosts and distributes for me, securely, securing an OS which people trust (for x number of years across x number of devices, with regular updates), and so many other unconsidered features/services, that that costs them nothing?
how can people say that costs them nothing? An argument about how much it costs them would make more sense, but even there, when you look at what people used to pay to distribute on mobile before for a fraction (orders of magnitude smaller!!!) of the reach, 30% is not horrible.
And this is not an Apple bubble / blind defense thing. This is greed. A thriving marketplace was established and now people/companies want to dismantle it. Apple built iOS, so now they should let everyone and their mother launch their own app stores, payment systems, oh and now Apple can’t update their!! OS (we own the phone, not the OS) because they have to worry about who’s going to sue them when their app breaks saying Apple broke their app on purpose (actually because they do t want to or aren’t forced to keep up with technology or bug fix their App Store).
people, perspective. I do not miss loading games on a TI calculator or playing snake on my Nokia!! As much fun as those were at the time...
I don't play Fortnight but I agree with Epic I've never agreed with Apple claiming a portion of all sales from an app even if those sales don't go through the AppStore. Some have compared it to having rules for stocking things in your own store. That's not it Some have said that Epic and others are trying to profit while not paying for the store. Not right either Look at it this way. I have a store. You want to sell something, a computer let's say, in my store. I can and should get a cut of the price for my trouble of hosting your product That's fair. But should I then demand a cut of everything else that is bought with that computer? I sell a Dell computer so anything purchased from Dell on that computer has to pay a toll back to me even if you're a thousand miles away from my store? Of course not, that would be absurd. Yet Apple is demanding a slice of everything bought on Amazon Prime, and Kindle, and all in game purchases, and more, even if those transactions have nothing to do and go nowhere near Apple's store. That has never felt right to me. Apple should get a cute of sales in their store. But that should be the end of it. Oh and don't go around saying if they don't like it they can go elsewhere, to Android for example. Apple has the only store where developers make significant money. The profits from the android store is a fraction. It's like saying if you don't want to pay my forever cut on sales you can go to the other store in the poor section of town where nobody can afford your stuff. Not really a choice for most developers. It's this kind of behavior that's getting Apple in trouble with antitrust hawks.
Your argument falls down. It’s not about poor android customers. It’s about people who can afford an Apple phone. Those people, who presumably have the money to buy Apple products and services and software, can take their Apple iPhone money and instead buy an Android phone. Nothing stopping them. They aren’t poor, by your own argument. There’s a clear choice for Epic, sell on Android’s app stores and market to everyone, including those who would buy iPhones, that people should buy an Android phone to play Epic games.
First off, Android device owners aren't "poor" in North America, western Europe or Asia. Instead, it is that we would rather spend $250 on a phone to play Fortnite with instead of $699. And if we are going to spend $699 - or actually twice that much for a Samsung flagship - we are going to want the latest hardware and software features and tons more freedom to use our devices the way that we want them to in return for that money.
Second, there is absolutely, positively no evidence that Fortnite is making a fraction of money on Android that it is on iOS. The primary difference in revenue between Google Play and the App Store is that the App Store operates in China and Google Play doesn't. If you were to add the Google Play revenue to the revenue of the top 10 Chinese app stores, then the combination of Google Play+Chinese app stores would equal that of the App Store. Meaning that were Google Play operating in China, its revenues would equal or exceed that of the App Store.
Third - I have said this many a time and I have no idea why it keeps getting ignored - there is no reason for iOS device owners to "go" anywhere. Want to play Fortnite, Stadia or GeForce Now? Buy an Amazon Kindle tablet - currently selling for as little as $60 - and sideload away. Or if you want to make things a bit easier on yourself ... buy a Samsung Galaxy Tab A for about $150 and download both xCloud and Fortnite from the Galaxy Store. (I just downloaded Microsoft's Forza driving video game from the Galaxy Store a couple of days ago. It. Works. The. Same. Way.) Just tell yourself that it is an Android tablet (which, by the way, all the Nintendo Switch is ... a CHEAPER VERSION of the Nvidia Shield K1 Android tablet - including the Vulkan graphics stack and Nvidia graphics drivers - running the Nintendo 3DS operating system) and game away. Use your iPhones, iPads, Apple Watches, Apple TVs and Macs for everything else. It isn't hard and it is what every other rational person on the planet does.
About time. They are our devices, we should be able to run whatever we want on them including a competing app store. If Apple thinks 30% is fair then it can try competing with app stores where the cut is 10% and see how well it does. What if a $10 app cost only $8 on another app store? How many customers would stick with Apple then?
Why are you not suggesting to compare 30% with an alternative App Store with no fee at all? Of course lower price will win. But there are costs to run the store; and other related costs like developing Swift, xCode etc.
Developers have to pay $99 to be allowed to develop & publish apps. That fee goes towards developing developer tools.
The annual $99, which even I (gladly) pay, doesn’t mean that if I have a massively popular free app which Apple hosts and distributes for me, securely, securing an OS which people trust (for x number of years across x number of devices, with regular updates), and so many other unconsidered features/services, that that costs them nothing?
how can people say that costs them nothing? An argument about how much it costs them would make more sense, but even there, when you look at what people used to pay to distribute on mobile before for a fraction (orders of magnitude smaller!!!) of the reach, 30% is not horrible.
And this is not an Apple bubble / blind defense thing. This is greed. A thriving marketplace was established and now people/companies want to dismantle it. Apple built iOS, so now they should let everyone and their mother launch their own app stores, payment systems, oh and now Apple can’t update their!! OS (we own the phone, not the OS) because they have to worry about who’s going to sue them when their app breaks saying Apple broke their app on purpose (actually because they do t want to or aren’t forced to keep up with technology or bug fix their App Store).
people, perspective. I do not miss loading games on a TI calculator or playing snake on my Nokia!! As much fun as those were at the time...
You're changing the subject. Re-read my reply again. First of all, I wasn't talking about the App Store. I was talking about costs associated with developer tools. And second of all, I never mentioned anywhere that it costs zero to run the App Store.
About time. They are our devices, we should be able to run whatever we want on them including a competing app store. If Apple thinks 30% is fair then it can try competing with app stores where the cut is 10% and see how well it does. What if a $10 app cost only $8 on another app store? How many customers would stick with Apple then?
I bet all of them will stick with Apple.
Privacy, security, vetted Apps, single entity to trust your credit card to...these are all easily worth a couple dollars.
Apps are dirt cheap. The average iOS user spends less than $10 a month on Apps. Saving $2 for increased risk of malware or other issues is not enough to make people switch.
And that’s assuming prices are actually cheaper. More likely they charge the same price and pocket the extra money for themselves.
You do realize that "sticking with Apple" and "playing your favourite video game" are two different things right? You can "stick with Apple" while playing Fortnite on a Nintendo Switch. Or by buying a $100 Android phone or tablet and playing Fortnite - and Stadia, xCloud and GeForce Now - on it. That is in fact what nearly all the Fortnite fans on iOS are going to do ... play Fortnite on another platform while communicating with their friends via iMessage.
Apple doesn’t have a monopoly on phones. If you don’t like the terms, you can always not sell your games in iOS. Android is the “leader” in phones anyway.
It’s not about who’s “leader in phones”. It’s about who is “leader in App Store”. There’s just two really: Apple and Google.
And that is a problem. The sheer size of these tech companies and their influence have become too huge to talk about it the way you do.
Besides, Apple and Google are being hypocrite. Fortnite can’t do this whereas Netflix can? Netflix actually allows you to subscribe on their website, completely bypassing Apple’s store.
These anti-trust probes are happening WAY too late.
Hi Apple, thanks for helping us become really popular and rich with your trusted app store and rock-solid worldwide hosting, transaction and distribution platform. Also thanks for building a market for us to sell our wares too, as well as making the hardware, software and APIs for us to utilise as a means to sell stuff to people.
It’s a two-way street. Apple’s store would have sucked without amazing content and amazing developers embracing Apple and continuing to do so.
Apple: “thank you Epic for bringing amazing content and fans to our platform so we became a more popular ecosystem and grow our business. Thank you Epic for writing a world class engine that powers thousands of games and showcases our technology. Thank you!”
Lastly, don’t forget Fortnite didn’t become big because of Apple. Read up on the history of this game.
I don't know about Android, but this is absolutely 1000% against Apple's rules for doing in-app purchases on their platform. I'm curious to see how fast the ban hammer comes, and how this plays out.
[edit] Well that didn't take long. Seems this whole thing was scripted from the start... [/edit]
Given the work-to-cut ratio, 30% may have been fair a decade ago when there wasn't a new app every 10 seconds and you actually got something out of being on their store, but these days, with the economies of scale being what they are, its just way too much. Especially on in-app purchases.
But I do want to dispel the myth that Apple/Google/Steam are doing "nothing". Here's what me and my fellow developers are getting for our 30%:
- Credit Card transaction processing - No liability from credit card processing. This is a big deal so I list it twice. - Handles all refunds, stolen credit card chargebacks, fraud - Placement (even if buried) on an easy to use store used by millions of customers - Fast, reliable hosting & distribution on global CDNs - Scheduled release times, possibly staggered by region - Regional pricing (sometimes automatic) - Platform services (user logins, leaderboards, in app purchases, authentication, anti-piracy measures) - Maybe 5 minutes of marketing as your app/game shows up in the "new" section for the blink of an eye on launch day. Maybe.
Every time I get upset about the 30% cut I remember all this - especially credit card legal liabilities - and I am fine with it again. Would prefer if it was only 15% or 20%, but I would much rather have the status quo as it is now than have to deal with that mess myself.
Last edited by DOOManiac on Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:23 pm
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Second Observer shows the conservative cost of popular “free w/ in-app purchases” for ‘hosting popular apps with constant updates:
So, I actually am going to take issue with Epic here. There are definitely costs incurred that directly relate to downloads of their game. Download metrics are hard to come by, but when fortnite came to the App Store it took about 5 months before 100,000,000 downloads of the game (which is free to play!). Assuming it was about 1.5GB (it’s 1.8GB today), that’s 150 PETABYTES in 5 months time and it’s been on top of the free charts since then.
Let’s assume that user saturation around 200milliom downloads, but on top of that there have been at least 100 patches (source: https://www.ign.com/wikis/fortnite/Upda ... nd_Updates ) over the years downloaded from Apple’s servers! With nearly no downtime? With free advertising on the most valuable App Store on the planet?
In those first five months, if you took those 150PB of downloads, enter that into an AWS S3 cost estimator, you’d likely find what I did: nearly $90,000 a month for those five months that Apple made immaculate uptime with no promise of return profit on the free downloads.
Now, of course Apple doesn’t pay AWS, so let’s say they have been providing this service gratis since July 2017 at a cost to them of $50,000 a month for this one app. 37 months at $50,000 = $1,850,000 in services since joining the App Store. This is likely a low-ball estimate if my suspicions about the sizes of the above updates are true.
Apple is providing all of this and more (app certificate signing, CloudKit free storage, secure and safe platforms free of hackers and aimbots, etc etc etc) for what? Epic’s $99 developer fee they pay to Apple each year?🤣
There needs to be a middle ground. Apple needs to allow corporations to opt out of the current flat rate 30% cut (of PURCHASES, nothing when free!), and get the itemized cost valuation of their services invoiced to their organization. most likely NO CORPORATION will go itemized after that first estimate because they will realize that, holy crap, duplicating Apple’s role in this would likely not be cost efficient.
That way, if Epic directly pays for what they clearly take advantage of with the App store then they can bypass the 30%, use their own payment system, and be free of Apple’s tyrannical 30%.... who knows, maybe that would be more profitable for them; it wouldn’t be for most.
I don't know about Android, but this is absolutely 1000% against Apple's rules for doing in-app purchases on their platform. I'm curious to see how fast the ban hammer comes, and how this plays out.
[edit] Well that didn't take long. Seems this whole thing was scripted from the start... [/edit]
Given the work-to-cut ratio, 30% may have been fair a decade ago when there wasn't a new app every 10 seconds and you actually got something out of being on their store, but these days, with the economies of scale being what they are, its just way too much. Especially on in-app purchases.
But I do want to dispel the myth that Apple/Google/Steam are doing "nothing". Here's what me and my fellow developers are getting for our 30%:
- Credit Card transaction processing - No liability from credit card processing. This is a big deal so I list it twice. - Handles all refunds, stolen credit card chargebacks, fraud - Placement (even if buried) on an easy to use store used by millions of customers - Fast, reliable hosting & distribution on global CDNs - Scheduled release times, possibly staggered by region - Regional pricing (sometimes automatic) - Platform services (user logins, leaderboards, in app purchases, authentication, anti-piracy measures) - Maybe 5 minutes of marketing as your app/game shows up in the "new" section for the blink of an eye on launch day. Maybe.
Every time I get upset about the 30% cut I remember all this - especially credit card legal liabilities - and I am fine with it again. Would prefer if it was only 15% or 20%, but I would much rather have the status quo as it is now than have to deal with that mess myself.
Last edited by DOOManiac on Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:23 pm
Up +104 (+116 / -12) Down
Thanks for this link. DOOManiac does make a good point. To add, now that Epic is also suing Google, which actually allows sideloading of apps on Android, there might be merit to this Twitter thread
If I had my own grocery store, wouldn't I be allowed to pick and choose which goods I wanted to sell? I should be able to decide that much because it's MY store. I set the rules. Isn't the App Store the same way or does something change because of the scale of the store?
I'm not going to argue as to whether Apple charges too much in terms of fees because I don't know what's exactly fair. Apple has a lot of housekeeping to do so I don't know if they're making huge profits or not. I just think that if a developer already knows the rules and they want to put their app on the App Store, I don't understand why they're complaining after the fact. Fortnite is very popular and didn't Epic make quite a bit of money from the game already. I'm not taking any sides as it doesn't affect me in any way as I don't play Fortnite and I'm not a developer. I am an Apple shareholder and Tim Cook has said many developers make a lot of money from their apps on iOS. Those numbers I heard seem pretty huge, but there are lots of games on the App Store so who knows how many developers make a lot of money. Maybe only a small percentage. I'm interested in how the courts treat this anti-trust suit, but Apple usually loses court cases because it's a wealthy company that's an easy target for large payouts.
What if you had your own phone and someone else decided that ONLY their store can be on YOUR phone? Do you have an iPhone? Do you own it or does Apple own it?
Surely you get software from different sources for your computer. Is a phone something so special that you should not have this option on it even after dropping $1200 on the latest and greatest iPhone?
Since the device is classified as a telephone it has to meet the onerous regulations applied to such devices (in most Western countries). The device manufacturer is liable for severe penalties in cases such as device failure during a life-threatening emergency.
Smartphones are more than just hardware, they are a complicated software environment. So I think it's reasonable to allow the manufacturer to control certain aspects of the device to make sure they won't fall foul of government regulations (or, you know, actually feel some sort of moral obligation to have the device work as expected).
So, yes, a phone IS something so special that you shouldn't be able to do whatever the hell you like to/with it. Mind you, once you've taken out the SIM card I think you've got a stronger legal argument that it's now just a general purpose computing device. Except that nowadays the SIM is turning into a firmware component on the motherboard...
Yet Apple is demanding a slice of everything bought on Amazon Prime, and Kindle, and all in game purchases, and more, even if those transactions have nothing to do and go nowhere near Apple's store. That has never felt right to me. Apple should get a cute (sic) of sales in their store. But that should be the end of it.
Doesn't Apple just take a cut of only Apple App Store sales? Not Google Play, etc, right? I think you're mistaken about getting a cut of all sales.
BUT, Apple does say that the price offered on the App Store must be the lowest price offered anywhere else. Now THAT could be contested in court... as long as they are not advertising the 'cheaper download from our site' message on the App Store.
Other articles on the topic mention that GooglePlay has removed Fortnite But, Google allows third party app stores. You have to jailbreak your iOS device to "side load" apps. That could be the lawsuit.
Comments
If I tell you, "you can sell your Dell in my store but I get a 30% cut of the computer sale and 30% of any sales you make with that computer," it sounds harsh and unfair until you realize you don't need to sell your Dell computer in that store! You could POSSIBLY sell it elsewhere. Now if somebody like DAslseth claims, "it would NOT sell well elsewhere," that very well could be true. But in that case, you need to use your brain and admit, "I should NOT be selling a Dell!"
In other words, stop blaming others like Apple for your own entrepreneurial incompetence.
If you can't make it as an app developer in light of the existing rules on Apple's app store, and if indeed that's the ONLY store you could possible sell apps, then become something else! Get hired at FaceBook or Google or Microsoft or IBM or even Apple as a programmer to use your skills another way. If you are a great app developer, you should be able to get those high paying jobs. And since your complain is about MONEY in the first place, getting a high paying job should eliminate your complaints!
The core of this fight centers on getting pissed off at an organization which found success in the American FREE MARKET. Apple is America's home grown success story that we should celebrate, not lambast!
Just because Apple's App Store really is the only app store that makes good money these days in no way makes Apple a monopoly insofar as they sell more than just apps. The FREE MARKET decided that Apple's App Store is really THE store to go to if you want to make money on apps. But again, that does not dictate that YOU must make apps. To make or not to make an app is a FREE CHOICE. If you choose to get pissed off and cry like a baby to lawyers and Congress because you want to make apps but DISLIKE THE RULES, should the world suddenly change to suit YOU?
This is why looting is so addictive among people who feel they've been treated unfairly. They see one guy break a store window and steal, then they convince themselves they too are entitled to it, so they barge right it and steal something from that store too. It then becomes a free-for-all. That's what some developers are trying to do now by breaking the glass of Apple's App Store. They want what they want and they will use whatever means necessary to get it. What started out as mere "fairness" leads them to take what is not theirs to take.
It goes without saying we love Apple and most people will defend Apple in a forum like this. And as an AAPL investor, I want Apple to succeed, not the silly people suing Apple. But when you think about all this objectively, how you ultimately think about this topic boils down to whether you are in favor of FREE MARKET CAPITALISM or instead in favor of some form of SOCIALISM or even COMMUNISM. If you get Big Brother to force Apple to change it's app store policies, that is NOT "free market capitalism." "Fairness" is a great concept, but it's not fundamental to how Capitalism works.
the answer is to stand by the law, and enforce it.
poor Epic!
They’re just a small mom and pop developer who brought in a meager $1.8 billion last year from this game!
Nasty Apple! Totally unfair!
Yes, Mercedes-Benz exclusively manufactures and sells Mercedes-Benz cars. But I can buy any parts for that car from anywhere. I can put any gas in that car that I want. I can replace the Mercedes stereo and infotainment system in that car with another one. If I want to replace the locks and alarm system, I can get a third party to do so. If I want to buy my own insurance instead of the Mercedez-Benz warranty, I can. If I want another financier instead of Mercedes-Benz, I can. This means that after I buy - and certainly after I pay off - my Mercedez-Benz, I have 100% control over it. This IS NOT the case with iPhones, iPads, Apple TVs and Apple Watches. This IS, however, the case with macOS devices. So even from the perspective of someone who is sympathetic to Apple's argument - which I am - THIS IS A HORRIBLE EXAMPLE SO STOP USING IT.
Second, Android phones ARE NOT HAVING A HARD TIME RUNNING FORTNITE. If Android games couldn't run Fortnite - which isn't even a particularly demanding mobile game - then why on earth would Android have such large market share? Even in wealthy, affluent countries like America, Canada and western Europe? Why on earth would anyone pay $1300 for a Samsung Galaxy Note 20 Ultra or $2000 for a Samsung Galaxy Z Flip if it couldn't run Fortnite? Let me put it another way ... why would Android gaming be an industry with TENS OF BILLIONS IN ANNUAL REVENUE if the devices couldn't run the games? Who is making all these games for devices that can't run them? Who is buying all these games that their devices can't run?
Third, Epic IS NOT biting the hand that feeds it. Fortnite runs on PC (where Epic Games has a long-running battle with Steam) and macOS. Fortnite runs on Playstation. Fortnite runs on Nintendo Switch. Fortnite runs on XBox. AND FORTNITE RUNS ON ANDROID. So take away iOS AND FORTNITE IS STILL ONE OF THE BIGGEST, MOST LUCRATIVE AND SUCCESSFUL VIDEO GAMES IN HISTORY. Epic is doing this PRECISELY BECAUSE A) Apple platforms ARE NOT the reason for their success and
Man, do you have absolutely no shame at all saying things that are so thoroughly, completely untrue?
2. While Epic doesn't do so "for free" - and claims that they want to be in the App Store "for free" are simply false - they charge much less and offer much better terms than Steam, Origin, EA and the other major console stores. The same rhetoric they are aiming at Apple now, they aimed at Steam a few years ago. So yeah, please endeavour to keep your ripostes true, OK? And again, I say this as someone who is generally sympathetic to Apple on this.
how can people say that costs them nothing? An argument about how much it costs them would make more sense, but even there, when you look at what people used to pay to distribute on mobile before for a fraction (orders of magnitude smaller!!!) of the reach, 30% is not horrible.
people, perspective. I do not miss loading games on a TI calculator or playing snake on my Nokia!! As much fun as those were at the time...
Second, there is absolutely, positively no evidence that Fortnite is making a fraction of money on Android that it is on iOS. The primary difference in revenue between Google Play and the App Store is that the App Store operates in China and Google Play doesn't. If you were to add the Google Play revenue to the revenue of the top 10 Chinese app stores, then the combination of Google Play+Chinese app stores would equal that of the App Store. Meaning that were Google Play operating in China, its revenues would equal or exceed that of the App Store.
Third - I have said this many a time and I have no idea why it keeps getting ignored - there is no reason for iOS device owners to "go" anywhere. Want to play Fortnite, Stadia or GeForce Now? Buy an Amazon Kindle tablet - currently selling for as little as $60 - and sideload away. Or if you want to make things a bit easier on yourself ... buy a Samsung Galaxy Tab A for about $150 and download both xCloud and Fortnite from the Galaxy Store. (I just downloaded Microsoft's Forza driving video game from the Galaxy Store a couple of days ago. It. Works. The. Same. Way.) Just tell yourself that it is an Android tablet (which, by the way, all the Nintendo Switch is ... a CHEAPER VERSION of the Nvidia Shield K1 Android tablet - including the Vulkan graphics stack and Nvidia graphics drivers - running the Nintendo 3DS operating system) and game away. Use your iPhones, iPads, Apple Watches, Apple TVs and Macs for everything else. It isn't hard and it is what every other rational person on the planet does.
These anti-trust probes are happening WAY too late.
Lastly, don’t forget Fortnite didn’t become big because of Apple. Read up on the history of this game.
An Apple App Dev posted views on 30%
REPLYAUG 13, 2020 11:09 AM
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Well that didn't take long. Seems this whole thing was scripted from the start...
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Given the work-to-cut ratio, 30% may have been fair a decade ago when there wasn't a new app every 10 seconds and you actually got something out of being on their store, but these days, with the economies of scale being what they are, its just way too much. Especially on in-app purchases.
But I do want to dispel the myth that Apple/Google/Steam are doing "nothing". Here's what me and my fellow developers are getting for our 30%:
- Credit Card transaction processing
- No liability from credit card processing. This is a big deal so I list it twice.
- Handles all refunds, stolen credit card chargebacks, fraud
- Placement (even if buried) on an easy to use store used by millions of customers
- Fast, reliable hosting & distribution on global CDNs
- Scheduled release times, possibly staggered by region
- Regional pricing (sometimes automatic)
- Platform services (user logins, leaderboards, in app purchases, authentication, anti-piracy measures)
- Maybe 5 minutes of marketing as your app/game shows up in the "new" section for the blink of an eye on launch day. Maybe.
Every time I get upset about the 30% cut I remember all this - especially credit card legal liabilities - and I am fine with it again. Would prefer if it was only 15% or 20%, but I would much rather have the status quo as it is now than have to deal with that mess myself.
Last edited by DOOManiac on Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:23 pm
Up +104 (+116 / -12) Down
Second Observer shows the conservative cost of popular “free w/ in-app purchases” for ‘hosting popular apps with constant updates:
Let’s assume that user saturation around 200milliom downloads, but on top of that there have been at least 100 patches (source: https://www.ign.com/wikis/fortnite/Upda ... nd_Updates ) over the years downloaded from Apple’s servers! With nearly no downtime? With free advertising on the most valuable App Store on the planet?
In those first five months, if you took those 150PB of downloads, enter that into an AWS S3 cost estimator, you’d likely find what I did: nearly $90,000 a month for those five months that Apple made immaculate uptime with no promise of return profit on the free downloads.
Now, of course Apple doesn’t pay AWS, so let’s say they have been providing this service gratis since July 2017 at a cost to them of $50,000 a month for this one app. 37 months at $50,000 = $1,850,000 in services since joining the App Store. This is likely a low-ball estimate if my suspicions about the sizes of the above updates are true.
Apple is providing all of this and more (app certificate signing, CloudKit free storage, secure and safe platforms free of hackers and aimbots, etc etc etc) for what? Epic’s $99 developer fee they pay to Apple each year?🤣
There needs to be a middle ground. Apple needs to allow corporations to opt out of the current flat rate 30% cut (of PURCHASES, nothing when free!), and get the itemized cost valuation of their services invoiced to their organization. most likely NO CORPORATION will go itemized after that first estimate because they will realize that, holy crap, duplicating Apple’s role in this would likely not be cost efficient.
That way, if Epic directly pays for what they clearly take advantage of with the App store then they can bypass the 30%, use their own payment system, and be free of Apple’s tyrannical 30%.... who knows, maybe that would be more profitable for them; it wouldn’t be for most.
Smartphones are more than just hardware, they are a complicated software environment. So I think it's reasonable to allow the manufacturer to control certain aspects of the device to make sure they won't fall foul of government regulations (or, you know, actually feel some sort of moral obligation to have the device work as expected).
So, yes, a phone IS something so special that you shouldn't be able to do whatever the hell you like to/with it. Mind you, once you've taken out the SIM card I think you've got a stronger legal argument that it's now just a general purpose computing device. Except that nowadays the SIM is turning into a firmware component on the motherboard...
Can we just agree that it's complicated?
BUT, Apple does say that the price offered on the App Store must be the lowest price offered anywhere else. Now THAT could be contested in court... as long as they are not advertising the 'cheaper download from our site' message on the App Store.
Other articles on the topic mention that GooglePlay has removed Fortnite But, Google allows third party app stores. You have to jailbreak your iOS device to "side load" apps. That could be the lawsuit.