I heard xCloud get compared to Netflix like this: They are both zero footprint downward streams with upward controls. The play/pause/skip function is just replaced by left/right/jump/shoot etc. I honestly think Apple isn't allowing it simply because they can't figure out a way to monetize it.
Nope that doesn’t make sense, as evidenced by the fact that video streaming services exist on iOS and are not monetized by Apple.
Well, we are getting a lot closer to an agreement.
I have not idea why you bring the legal thing into this conversation, considering MS haven't break any Apple or legal rules. This is a completely different matter from Epic and Fortnite.
Like I posted before, the legal points you mention are not relevant, since MS haven't break any rule or law, removed xCloud from TestFlight, and didn't force any issues as Epic did.
Now, answering your question if MS ( or Google) will adhere to all rules, my answer as an Apple customer (since I'm not against, neither pro Apple), is that I don't know. If Apple won't allow anyone break the iOS experience, why would MS allow Apple break their xCloud gaming experience? And considering gaming experience, I trust MS far more than Apple. So what Apple is doing with the new rules, may give us, iOS customers a worst experience than what MS and Google had planned. I suppose that rules weren't suppose to do that, but here we are.
Did you have proof that xCloud or Stadia takes away your freedom or breaks any of the things you mentioned from the iOS / iPadOS experience? From what I know Apple didn't reject xCloud for any of the reasons you mentioned.
And I don't understand why you feel that your freedom will go away if xCloud were in Apple mobile devices. Yes, I have to option to move to Android or Xbox consoles. But you have the option to not download xCloud, and you'll still have the same experience as you had before, since xCloud didn't break the iOS experience (at least when it as in TestFlight). There are cases that we see good services, as xCloud and Stadia, that could improve the iOS / iPadOS experience you already enjoy.
I appreciate your attempts to make a polite argument. And I will try to make an honest attempt to respond. Here are some brief answers to some of your questions:
Brief response #1: I don't need to prove Microsoft will break the rules, although that's obiovus since they already said they hate the new rules. Brief response #2: Apple doesn't have to "let xCloud on as is just because Apple doesn't allow other people do modify iOS" (you actually said that!) Brief response #3: I never said my freedom would go away because xCloud is on iOS, I said my freedom to choose iOS would go away if anyone could force Apple to change some or all of the rules of iOS. Why do you think Apple must change the iOS rules? Under what law can Apple be forced to drop any or all of their 500 rules?
You said, "I don't understand why you feel that your freedom will go away if xCloud were in Apple mobile devices." Your question conceals the fact that if xCloud was FORCED onto the app store, then whoever did the FORCING would have the power to remove any or all of Apples 500 rules. So who are you thinking has the ability in this case to FORCE Apple to remove its restrictions? That's what I'm worried about. Your question is worded in such a way that real issue is hidden - namely that someone is able to FORCE Apple to cancel rules that they don't like. Who is it that has the power to do this?
Let me make this clear for you: I don't care one whit about xCloud... what I care about is someone having the power to take away Apple's right to have its own rules, which I like, and which are the reason I buy Apple in the first place. Is my concern clear now? I care not whether it's xCloud, or Fortnite, or tomorrow's oppressed app.
Here are 7 absolutely indisputable facts that nobody can even raise one word to oppose:
Indisputable Fact #1: Apple has ~500 rules for any software that goes onto their store. They relate to a wide variety of topics including reviews, payment, etc. Indisputable Fact #2: Apple has every legal right to have rules, in fact Apple doesn't have to let anyone sell software at all. Indisputable Fact #3: Some people, some small developers and some huge developers don't like the rules. Indisputable Fact #4: Some users actually like the rules (believe it or not!) and buy Apple's products because of the rules. Some developers do too, like me. Indisputable Fact #5: There's the court of law and the court of public opinion. Both courts serve their purpose. Indisputable Fact #6: Only the courts can legally force Apple to change their rules, and the courts need a law to do that, and nobody has offered what that law is Indisputable Fact #7: The legal burden is on the streamers to say why Apple must allow streaming, the burden is not not Apple to explain why they don't want it
Here are several of the specious arguments I've seen so far:
Specious Argument #1: No iOS user is forced to run xCloud so Apple must be forced to change the app store rules to allow xCloud Specious Argument #2: xCloud isn't dangerous so Apple must be forced to change the app store rules Specious Argument #3: xCloud is a fine user interface, so Apple must be forced to change the app store rules Specious Argument #4: there is no law forcing Microsoft to change xCloud so Apple must be forced to change the app store rules to allow it as is Specious Argument #5: If Apple doesn't allow anyone to break the iOS experience, then Apple should not be allowed to break the xCloud experience and therefore Apple must be forced to change the app store rules
That last argument is thought provoking - and absolutely hilarious. All these arguments are irrelevant because Apple has every right to create rules and the rules block the kind of streaming that you want and that's that. There is no further discussion. The rules are 100% legal. But there are some questions that I'm often asking the pro-streaming community and I'm ignored 100% of the time:
Question that's ignored #1: Is Walmart allowed to limit which manufacturers can sell products in their store. And also, can Apple do the same thing? Question that's ignored #2: Under what US law can Apple be forced to open it's operating system to apps it doesn't like? Question that's ignored #3: Does Apple even need to have a reason for not allowing an app onto their store? Question that's ignored #4: Should other companies like Epic, Microsoft, Nintendo be forced to allow other companies to sell things on their stores?
Would you be willing to attempt to answer any of the above 4 ignored questions? This is the heart of the problem. Please try. We deserve clarification.
Well, we are getting a lot closer to an agreement.
I have not idea why you bring the legal thing into this conversation, considering MS haven't break any Apple or legal rules. This is a completely different matter from Epic and Fortnite.
Like I posted before, the legal points you mention are not relevant, since MS haven't break any rule or law, removed xCloud from TestFlight, and didn't force any issues as Epic did.
Now, answering your question if MS ( or Google) will adhere to all rules, my answer as an Apple customer (since I'm not against, neither pro Apple), is that I don't know. If Apple won't allow anyone break the iOS experience, why would MS allow Apple break their xCloud gaming experience? And considering gaming experience, I trust MS far more than Apple. So what Apple is doing with the new rules, may give us, iOS customers a worst experience than what MS and Google had planned. I suppose that rules weren't suppose to do that, but here we are.
Did you have proof that xCloud or Stadia takes away your freedom or breaks any of the things you mentioned from the iOS / iPadOS experience? From what I know Apple didn't reject xCloud for any of the reasons you mentioned.
And I don't understand why you feel that your freedom will go away if xCloud were in Apple mobile devices. Yes, I have to option to move to Android or Xbox consoles. But you have the option to not download xCloud, and you'll still have the same experience as you had before, since xCloud didn't break the iOS experience (at least when it as in TestFlight). There are cases that we see good services, as xCloud and Stadia, that could improve the iOS / iPadOS experience you already enjoy.
I appreciate your attempts to make a polite argument. And I will try to make an honest attempt to respond. Here are some brief answers to some of your questions:
Brief response #1: I don't need to prove Microsoft will break the rules, although that's obiovus since they already said they hate the new rules. Brief response #2: Apple doesn't have to "let xCloud on as is just because Apple doesn't allow other people do modify iOS" (you actually said that!) Brief response #3: I never said my freedom would go away because xCloud is on iOS, I said my freedom to choose iOS would go away if anyone could force Apple to change some or all of the rules of iOS. Why do you think Apple must change the iOS rules? Under what law can Apple be forced to drop any or all of their 500 rules?
You said, "I don't understand why you feel that your freedom will go away if xCloud were in Apple mobile devices." Your question conceals the fact that if xCloud was FORCED onto the app store, then whoever did the FORCING would have the power to remove any or all of Apples 500 rules. So who are you thinking has the ability in this case to FORCE Apple to remove its restrictions? That's what I'm worried about. Your question is worded in such a way that real issue is hidden - namely that someone is able to FORCE Apple to cancel rules that they don't like. Who is it that has the power to do this?
Let me make this clear for you: I don't care one whit about xCloud... what I care about is someone having the power to take away Apple's right to have its own rules, which I like, and which are the reason I buy Apple in the first place. Is my concern clear now? I care not whether it's xCloud, or Fortnite, or tomorrow's oppressed app.
The first thing is that xCloud was never forced in the App Store. MS had it in TestFlight for many months. Maybe MS thought of the possibility of Apple changing rules after seeing how it worked. But since Apple kept it's rules, MS respectfully remove the app after the TestFlight expired. MS never forced Apple to change the rules, neither break any rules or law in the process. It looks like they were clear that Apple was the only one that could change the rules.
Second, I understand your concern, but is irrelevant in this discussion about MS comments about Apple rules changes. I think they are valid with Epic and the nonsense they did, but not with MS considering they didn't break any Apple rules or laws.
Here are 7 absolutely indisputable facts that nobody can even raise one word to oppose:
Indisputable Fact #1: Apple has ~500 rules for any software that goes onto their store. They relate to a wide variety of topics including reviews, payment, etc. Indisputable Fact #2: Apple has every legal right to have rules, in fact Apple doesn't have to let anyone sell software at all. Indisputable Fact #3: Some people, some small developers and some huge developers don't like the rules. Indisputable Fact #4: Some users actually like the rules (believe it or not!) and buy Apple's products because of the rules. Some developers do too, like me. Indisputable Fact #5: There's the court of law and the court of public opinion. Both courts serve their purpose. Indisputable Fact #6: Only the courts can legally force Apple to change their rules, and the courts need a law to do that, and nobody has offered what that law is Indisputable Fact #7: The legal burden is on the streamers to say why Apple must allow streaming, the burden is not not Apple to explain why they don't want it
The list is completely valid. But I still don't understand how it applies to MS and xCloud since they haven't break any Apple rules or the law. Although I agree Apple may not be forced to change their rules, but they should be intelligent enough to see when innovation could improve their platform, and take advantage of it, even if it requieres changing the rules.
Here are several of the specious arguments I've seen so far:
Specious Argument #1: No iOS user is forced to run xCloud so Apple must be forced to change the app store rules to allow xCloud Specious Argument #2: xCloud isn't dangerous so Apple must be forced to change the app store rules Specious Argument #3: xCloud is a fine user interface, so Apple must be forced to change the app store rules Specious Argument #4: there is no law forcing Microsoft to change xCloud so Apple must be forced to change the app store rules to allow it as is Specious Argument #5: If Apple doesn't allow anyone to break the iOS experience, then Apple should not be allowed to break the xCloud experience and therefore Apple must be forced to change the app store rules
I suppose there are people who think as the 5 arguments you made, but I'm not one of them. For example, I agree with the first part of all of them, but I don't think that Apple should be forced to change their rules. It would be far better if they saw the benefit of cloud gaming for their platform and make rules that allow them in the App Store, improving the gaming experience in Apple devices, like the ones that I have. Don't you think? But I suppose we cannot expect too much from Apple in the gaming business, considering how awful is their gaming ecosystem.
That last argument is thought provoking - and absolutely hilarious. All these arguments are irrelevant because Apple has every right to create rules and the rules block the kind of streaming that you want and that's that. There is no further discussion. The rules are 100% legal. But there are some questions that I'm often asking the pro-streaming community and I'm ignored 100% of the time:
Question that's ignored #1: Is Walmart allowed to limit which manufacturers can sell products in their store. And also, can Apple do the same thing? Question that's ignored #2: Under what US law can Apple be forced to open it's operating system to apps it doesn't like? Question that's ignored #3: Does Apple even need to have a reason for not allowing an app onto their store? Question that's ignored #4: Should other companies like Epic, Microsoft, Nintendo be forced to allow other companies to sell things on their stores?
Would you be willing to attempt to answer any of the above 4 ignored questions? This is the heart of the problem. Please try. We deserve clarification.
Here are my answers,
Q1. Yes, Yes Q2. As today, there is no law. Q3. No, they don't need to have a reason. Q4. No
If I understood Apple's new rule correctly, games that will be streamed should also be available as individual purchases on the App Store.
This seems like the best of both worlds to me. People who only want the individual game can buy it and people who want to opt for a streaming service that offers the game can stream it. It also gives Users the advantage of having the streaming game vetted by the App Store guidelines.
I guess the problem is that not all games offered by the streaming services would be made using xCode, so those games cannot be submitted to the App Store.
The first thing is that xCloud was never forced in the App Store. MS had it in TestFlight for many months. Maybe MS thought of the possibility of Apple changing rules after seeing how it worked. But since Apple kept it's rules, MS respectfully remove the app after the TestFlight expired. MS never forced Apple to change the rules, neither break any rules or law in the process. It looks like they were clear that Apple was the only one that could change the rules.
Second, I understand your concern, but is irrelevant in this discussion about MS comments about Apple rules changes. I think they are valid with Epic and the nonsense they did, but not with MS considering they didn't break any Apple rules or laws.
The list is completely valid. But I still don't understand how it applies to MS and xCloud since they haven't break any Apple rules or the law. Although I agree Apple may not be forced to change their rules, but they should be intelligent enough to see when innovation could improve their platform, and take advantage of it, even if it requieres changing the rules.
I suppose there are people who think as the 5 arguments you made, but I'm not one of them. For example, I agree with the first part of all of them, but I don't think that Apple should be forced to change their rules. It would be far better if they saw the benefit of cloud gaming for their platform and make rules that allow them in the App Store, improving the gaming experience in Apple devices, like the ones that I have. Don't you think? But I suppose we cannot expect too much from Apple in the gaming business, considering how awful is their gaming ecosystem.
Here are my answers,
Q1. Yes, Yes Q2. As today, there is no law. Q3. No, they don't need to have a reason. Q4. No
Now that I answered them, what was your point?
Now that you answered my questions, succinctly and correctly, and because you also said, "I don't think Apple should be forced to change their rules," we are in complete agreement. Thanks for your time. There is nothing more to resolve.
Well, you did make a couple of unrelated claims that still need disputing. (1) I don't think I agree with you that streaming, the way you imagine it, would "improve the gaming experience." I like Apple's system of indexing all the apps in the app store. I don't want to have to deal with two separate systems for obtaining games. I like simplicity, and so does Apple. To me, simple is ideal. If you like complex, use a different platform. (2) I doubt your claim that "xCloud hasn't violated any of the terms of the App Store." Have you read the rules? https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ For example, was each game in xCloud submitted to Apple for review? And did each app submit Apple's required metadata fields? I doubt it.
The first thing is that xCloud was never forced in the App Store. MS had it in TestFlight for many months. Maybe MS thought of the possibility of Apple changing rules after seeing how it worked. But since Apple kept it's rules, MS respectfully remove the app after the TestFlight expired. MS never forced Apple to change the rules, neither break any rules or law in the process. It looks like they were clear that Apple was the only one that could change the rules.
Second, I understand your concern, but is irrelevant in this discussion about MS comments about Apple rules changes. I think they are valid with Epic and the nonsense they did, but not with MS considering they didn't break any Apple rules or laws.
The list is completely valid. But I still don't understand how it applies to MS and xCloud since they haven't break any Apple rules or the law. Although I agree Apple may not be forced to change their rules, but they should be intelligent enough to see when innovation could improve their platform, and take advantage of it, even if it requieres changing the rules.
I suppose there are people who think as the 5 arguments you made, but I'm not one of them. For example, I agree with the first part of all of them, but I don't think that Apple should be forced to change their rules. It would be far better if they saw the benefit of cloud gaming for their platform and make rules that allow them in the App Store, improving the gaming experience in Apple devices, like the ones that I have. Don't you think? But I suppose we cannot expect too much from Apple in the gaming business, considering how awful is their gaming ecosystem.
Here are my answers,
Q1. Yes, Yes Q2. As today, there is no law. Q3. No, they don't need to have a reason. Q4. No
Now that I answered them, what was your point?
Now that you answered my questions, succinctly and correctly, and because you also said, "I don't think Apple should be forced to change their rules," we are in complete agreement. Thanks for your time. There is nothing more to resolve.
Well, you did make a couple of unrelated claims that still need disputing. (1) I don't think I agree with you that streaming, the way you imagine it, would "improve the gaming experience." I like Apple's system of indexing all the apps in the app store. I don't want to have to deal with two separate systems for obtaining games. I like simplicity, and so does Apple. To me, simple is ideal. If you like complex, use a different platform. (2) I doubt your claim that "xCloud hasn't violated any of the terms of the App Store." Have you read the rules? https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ For example, was each game in xCloud submitted to Apple for review? And did each app submit Apple's required metadata fields? I doubt it.
I don't think that MS, et al, are happy about this, but it won't be that difficult to comply with Apple's guidelines. It does take the emphasis out of all you can eat streaming services though, in favor of individual games and Apple's app store.
Very little impact on the user experience; they'll just have to browse the streaming catalog on the App store.
The first thing is that xCloud was never forced in the App Store. MS had it in TestFlight for many months. Maybe MS thought of the possibility of Apple changing rules after seeing how it worked. But since Apple kept it's rules, MS respectfully remove the app after the TestFlight expired. MS never forced Apple to change the rules, neither break any rules or law in the process. It looks like they were clear that Apple was the only one that could change the rules.
Second, I understand your concern, but is irrelevant in this discussion about MS comments about Apple rules changes. I think they are valid with Epic and the nonsense they did, but not with MS considering they didn't break any Apple rules or laws.
The list is completely valid. But I still don't understand how it applies to MS and xCloud since they haven't break any Apple rules or the law. Although I agree Apple may not be forced to change their rules, but they should be intelligent enough to see when innovation could improve their platform, and take advantage of it, even if it requieres changing the rules.
I suppose there are people who think as the 5 arguments you made, but I'm not one of them. For example, I agree with the first part of all of them, but I don't think that Apple should be forced to change their rules. It would be far better if they saw the benefit of cloud gaming for their platform and make rules that allow them in the App Store, improving the gaming experience in Apple devices, like the ones that I have. Don't you think? But I suppose we cannot expect too much from Apple in the gaming business, considering how awful is their gaming ecosystem.
Here are my answers,
Q1. Yes, Yes Q2. As today, there is no law. Q3. No, they don't need to have a reason. Q4. No
Now that I answered them, what was your point?
Now that you answered my questions, succinctly and correctly, and because you also said, "I don't think Apple should be forced to change their rules," we are in complete agreement. Thanks for your time. There is nothing more to resolve.
Well, you did make a couple of unrelated claims that still need disputing. (1) I don't think I agree with you that streaming, the way you imagine it, would "improve the gaming experience." I like Apple's system of indexing all the apps in the app store. I don't want to have to deal with two separate systems for obtaining games. I like simplicity, and so does Apple. To me, simple is ideal. If you like complex, use a different platform.
I think my comments are related to the article, considering the response from MS that the new rules makes for a bad experience. You mention that you don't want two separate system for games, but that's what we see with movie / TV and music services, and it doesn't breaks any of the iOS experience, neither creates any complexity. Why would it be different with cloud gaming services? At the same time, Apple rules breaks the consistency of the service by forcing the developer make the app work different compared to others devices. Like I said before, I trust MS more than Apple when is related to gaming. And in this case, I agree with MS. But I don't think it's an issue for you, considering you already mentioned you don't care for xCloud.
(2) I doubt your claim that "xCloud hasn't violated any of the terms of the App Store." Have you read the rules? https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ For example, was each game in xCloud submitted to Apple for review? And did each app submit Apple's required metadata fields? I doubt it.
I think I wasn't clear with my comment. I was talking about that MS haven't break any rules with xCloud, like Epic did with Fortnite, since xCloud was never an approved app.
You mention that you don't want two separate system for games, but that's what we see with movie / TV and music services, and it doesn't breaks any of the iOS experience, neither creates any complexity. Why would it be different with cloud gaming services? At the same time, Apple rules breaks the consistency of the service by forcing the developer make the app work different compared to others devices. Like I said before, I trust MS more than Apple when is related to gaming. And in this case, I agree with MS. But I don't think it's an issue for you, considering you already mentioned you don't care for xCloud.
I appreciate that you are having a polite and civil discussion with me. I've considered your point above. I will answer your question. You asked "why would it be any different with cloud gaming services?" That's a fair question. I can give many reasons:
1. Because Apple wants to, and that's the only reason required. Apple has no legal requirement to do otherwise. 2. Because video streaming services comply with Apple's extensive requirements regarding metadata submission, and software streaming services (very likely) don't want to do that 3. Because Apple's rules have many restrictions on in app purchases. Would xCloud adhere to all these restrictions? I'm not even sure xCloud would be ableto enforce in app purchase rules because it's all done by the streaming software. 4. Because video streaming services cannot ever ask the user for information, but video streaming services can make you type in personal data like email addresses. Apple worries about users' privacy and security. 5. Because gaming streaming services can ask users for credit card information and bypass even Apple's knowledge of such payments 6. Because "what's a game?" Gaming streaming services could start selling other kinds of software besides games. Apple has many rules on software that gives medical advice, for example. 7. Because Apple vets normal software submitted to its app store, to justify things like access to an iPhone's microphone, but how will this be implemented if the xCloud app has carte blanche access to the microphone? How would Apple or the user know if an app is streaming your microphone into their servers in China?
The main thing you don't seem to see the consequences of is that gaming streaming services have INPUT. It's an entirely different kind of streaming, altogether.
You have to be more specific about the "leader of bad experience", considering the article is about gaming experiences. As today, MS is miles ahead in the whole gaming experience, so I suppose your comment is about Apple, right?
No the comment wasn't about apple... the OP is referring to trashy Windows and it's terrible app store experience. All of the folks making snarky " User experience" posts are directly talking about MS, it's windows offerings and app store specifically. I know it's an article about gaming but that isn't where these comments are coming from.. you had to realize that? No?
You mention that you don't want two separate system for games, but that's what we see with movie / TV and music services, and it doesn't breaks any of the iOS experience, neither creates any complexity. Why would it be different with cloud gaming services? At the same time, Apple rules breaks the consistency of the service by forcing the developer make the app work different compared to others devices. Like I said before, I trust MS more than Apple when is related to gaming. And in this case, I agree with MS. But I don't think it's an issue for you, considering you already mentioned you don't care for xCloud.
I appreciate that you are having a polite and civil discussion with me. I've considered your point above. I will answer your question. You asked "why would it be any different with cloud gaming services?" That's a fair question. I can give many reasons:
1. Because Apple wants to, and that's the only reason required. Apple has no legal requirement to do otherwise. 2. Because video streaming services comply with Apple's extensive requirements regarding metadata submission, and software streaming services (very likely) don't want to do that 3. Because Apple's rules have many restrictions on in app purchases. Would xCloud adhere to all these restrictions? I'm not even sure xCloud would be ableto enforce in app purchase rules because it's all done by the streaming software. 4. Because video streaming services cannot ever ask the user for information, but video streaming services can make you type in personal data like email addresses. Apple worries about users' privacy and security. 5. Because gaming streaming services can ask users for credit card information and bypass even Apple's knowledge of such payments 6. Because "what's a game?" Gaming streaming services could start selling other kinds of software besides games. Apple has many rules on software that gives medical advice, for example. 7. Because Apple vets normal software submitted to its app store, to justify things like access to an iPhone's microphone, but how will this be implemented if the xCloud app has carte blanche access to the microphone? How would Apple or the user know if an app is streaming your microphone into their servers in China?
The answer you gave is out of context. You mentioned that you don't want two separate systems for games, but that's what we see with movie / TV and music services, and it doesn't breaks any of the iOS experience, neither creates any complexity. From the iOS POV, why would it be different with xCloud, considering xCloud in iOS worked very similar to Netflix and Spotify?
The main thing you don't seem to see the consequences of is that gaming streaming services have INPUT. It's an entirely different kind of streaming, altogether.
I suppose Input is not relevant, considering there is no mention of this as a criteria in the App Store Guidelines.
The answer you gave is out of context. You mentioned that you don't want two separate systems for games, but that's what we see with movie / TV and music services, and it doesn't breaks any of the iOS experience, neither creates any complexity. From the iOS POV, why would it be different with xCloud, considering xCloud in iOS worked very similar to Netflix and Spotify?
I suppose Input is not relevant, considering there is no mention of this as a criteria in the App Store Guidelines.
Input is not relevant? You obviously haven't read the requirements. On section begins with "Data collected..." I think we've hit an impasse because your answers are completely wrong, and I've lost interest in trying to point things out to you like the App Store Guidelines. And the fact that movies and music are on separate parts of the OS doesn't prove anything. Sorry, even my patience has now run out. At least I got you to agree that Apple can set up whatever rules it wants, and that was progress, so my time wasn't wasted. I'm closing my window now so I won't see further replies.
The answer you gave is out of context. You mentioned that you don't want two separate systems for games, but that's what we see with movie / TV and music services, and it doesn't breaks any of the iOS experience, neither creates any complexity. From the iOS POV, why would it be different with xCloud, considering xCloud in iOS worked very similar to Netflix and Spotify?
I suppose Input is not relevant, considering there is no mention of this as a criteria in the App Store Guidelines.
Input is not relevant? You obviously haven't read the requirements. On section begins with "Data collected..." I think we've hit an impasse because your answers are completely wrong, and I've lost interest in trying to point things out to you like the App Store Guidelines. And the fact that movies and music are on separate parts of the OS doesn't prove anything. Sorry, even my patience has now run out. At least I got you to agree that Apple can set up whatever rules it wants, and that was progress, so my time wasn't wasted. I'm closing my window now so I won't see further replies.
I miss understood you point about "Input". I thought about input devices to play games or interact with an app. If you are talking about data collection, I suppose is a genuine point. But I haven't seen any evidence that it would have been an issue with xCloud. Have you?
And the fact that movies and music are on separate parts of the OS doesn't prove anything. Sorry, even my patience has now run out. At least I got you to agree that Apple can set up whatever rules it wants, and that was progress, so my time wasn't wasted. I'm closing my window now so I won't see further replies.
It proves that separate apps for TV / movies and music apps won't break the iOS experience neither makes it more complicated, as you said xCloud do. BTW, your comments about xCloud breaking the iOS experience, complicating things or collecting data from users are based in your own experience using the app while it was in TestFlight?
Comments
You said, "I don't understand why you feel that your freedom will go away if xCloud were in Apple mobile devices." Your question conceals the fact that if xCloud was FORCED onto the app store, then whoever did the FORCING would have the power to remove any or all of Apples 500 rules. So who are you thinking has the ability in this case to FORCE Apple to remove its restrictions? That's what I'm worried about. Your question is worded in such a way that real issue is hidden - namely that someone is able to FORCE Apple to cancel rules that they don't like. Who is it that has the power to do this?
Let me make this clear for you: I don't care one whit about xCloud... what I care about is someone having the power to take away Apple's right to have its own rules, which I like, and which are the reason I buy Apple in the first place. Is my concern clear now? I care not whether it's xCloud, or Fortnite, or tomorrow's oppressed app.
Here are 7 absolutely indisputable facts that nobody can even raise one word to oppose:
Here are several of the specious arguments I've seen so far:
That last argument is thought provoking - and absolutely hilarious. All these arguments are irrelevant because Apple has every right to create rules and the rules block the kind of streaming that you want and that's that. There is no further discussion. The rules are 100% legal. But there are some questions that I'm often asking the pro-streaming community and I'm ignored 100% of the time:
Would you be willing to attempt to answer any of the above 4 ignored questions? This is the heart of the problem. Please try. We deserve clarification.
Second, I understand your concern, but is irrelevant in this discussion about MS comments about Apple rules changes. I think they are valid with Epic and the nonsense they did, but not with MS considering they didn't break any Apple rules or laws.
The list is completely valid. But I still don't understand how it applies to MS and xCloud since they haven't break any Apple rules or the law. Although I agree Apple may not be forced to change their rules, but they should be intelligent enough to see when innovation could improve their platform, and take advantage of it, even if it requieres changing the rules.
I suppose there are people who think as the 5 arguments you made, but I'm not one of them. For example, I agree with the first part of all of them, but I don't think that Apple should be forced to change their rules. It would be far better if they saw the benefit of cloud gaming for their platform and make rules that allow them in the App Store, improving the gaming experience in Apple devices, like the ones that I have. Don't you think? But I suppose we cannot expect too much from Apple in the gaming business, considering how awful is their gaming ecosystem.
Here are my answers,
Q1. Yes, Yes
Q2. As today, there is no law.
Q3. No, they don't need to have a reason.
Q4. No
Now that I answered them, what was your point?
This seems like the best of both worlds to me. People who only want the individual game can buy it and people who want to opt for a streaming service that offers the game can stream it.
It also gives Users the advantage of having the streaming game vetted by the App Store guidelines.
I guess the problem is that not all games offered by the streaming services would be made using xCode, so those games cannot be submitted to the App Store.
Well, you did make a couple of unrelated claims that still need disputing. (1) I don't think I agree with you that streaming, the way you imagine it, would "improve the gaming experience." I like Apple's system of indexing all the apps in the app store. I don't want to have to deal with two separate systems for obtaining games. I like simplicity, and so does Apple. To me, simple is ideal. If you like complex, use a different platform. (2) I doubt your claim that "xCloud hasn't violated any of the terms of the App Store." Have you read the rules? https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ For example, was each game in xCloud submitted to Apple for review? And did each app submit Apple's required metadata fields? I doubt it.
Very little impact on the user experience; they'll just have to browse the streaming catalog on the App store.
I think I wasn't clear with my comment. I was talking about that MS haven't break any rules with xCloud, like Epic did with Fortnite, since xCloud was never an approved app.
The main thing you don't seem to see the consequences of is that gaming streaming services have INPUT. It's an entirely different kind of streaming, altogether.
No the comment wasn't about apple... the OP is referring to trashy Windows and it's terrible app store experience. All of the folks making snarky " User experience" posts are directly talking about MS, it's windows offerings and app store specifically. I know it's an article about gaming but that isn't where these comments are coming from.. you had to realize that? No?
I suppose Input is not relevant, considering there is no mention of this as a criteria in the App Store Guidelines.
It proves that separate apps for TV / movies and music apps won't break the iOS experience neither makes it more complicated, as you said xCloud do. BTW, your comments about xCloud breaking the iOS experience, complicating things or collecting data from users are based in your own experience using the app while it was in TestFlight?