Coinbase CEO says App Store policies stifle innovation in cryptocurrency

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  • Reply 41 of 55
    If someone is interested in evolution! of money here you go http://www.salt.org.il/money.html :smiley: 
  • Reply 42 of 55
    MplsP said:
    tundraboy said:

    Besides, why would Apple, or any other private company, want to promote a currency and technology that enables drug dealers, cyber criminals, tax evaders, terrorist organizations and all other sorts of nefarious characters?  Why should any private company that is not a monopoly or a public utility be compelled to enter into a line of business that it does not want to be in?  Why is it a private company's obligation to promote a technology that it doesn't want to be involved in?

    Frankly, cryptocurrencies have not proved their value to society.  Even on a conceptual basis no one has made a credible case yet on how you can stop criminals from using it to conduct illegal transactions.
    This is my biggest objection to crypto currencies. There may be legitimate investors and speculators, but there are very places that actually use them as payment for goods and services (I.e. a currency’s primary purpose.) Their main use appears to be to allow a save transaction for ransomware, terrorist organizations, etc. 

    As for being an illusion, all currency is an illusion to a certain extent. The difference is dollars, euros, etc are backed by a government. Crypto currencies are backed by nothing. 
    You’ve been watching too much TV. 

    Crypto currencies are backed by what used to back US currency: scarcity. Precious metals for traditional currency, and rare sequences in something like bitcoin. As spam said, US currency isn’t backed by precious metals anymore...it exists and has value because we all choose to believe it does. As someone said, money is a shared delusion.
    edited September 2020
  • Reply 43 of 55
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,326moderator
    If we’re talking about the US Dollar, it’s backed solely by the Federal Reserve, no labor, commodities, or services are involved. You cannot redeem a Federal Reserve Note from the Federal Reserve for it’s equivalent in gold, silver or anything else. It’s a shared fantasy. As long as people continue to believe in the monetary fantasy, it continues to exist. Bitcoin (as one example) is a scarce resource. It has a measurable value based on consensus, not based on the manipulations of central banking authorities.

    Let’s face it, opinions about what is or isn’t valuable remain relative, despite some things being called money and other things being called commodities.
    Crypto currencies are backed by what used to back US currency: scarcity. Precious metals for traditional currency, and rare sequences in something like bitcoin. As spam said, US currency isn’t backed by precious metals anymore...it exists and has value because we all choose to believe it does. As someone said, money is a shared delusion.
    Some cryptocurrencies use a limited supply, some add more coins when needed and there's nothing stopping Bitcoin doing the same, it's a computer algorithm that can be changed by the group that controls it, it was already forked in two. Precious metals are different because the supply is out of the control of people entirely, that in itself is bad because it means countries with a large supply of natural resources would have an advantage regardless of their produce and newly discovered reserves would quickly change the value of everything. Some cryptocurrencies make a choice to limit the supply. But this is also true of fiat currency supply where the limiting factor is monetary policy:

    https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/monetarypolicy.asp

    "The Federal Reserve Bank is in charge of monetary policy in the United States. The Federal Reserve has what is commonly referred to as a "dual mandate": to achieve maximum employment while keeping inflation in check. Simply put, it is the Fed's responsibility to balance economic growth and inflation. In addition, it aims to keep long-term interest rates relatively low. Its core role is to be the lender of last resort, providing banks with liquidity and serve as a bank regulator, in order to prevent the bank failures and panics in the financial services sector."

    Having a strictly limited supply doesn't guarantee stability, far from it, as the examples mentioned earlier. Just look at the value graphs of all cryptocurrencies over time, they fluctuate wildly. Scarcity also doesn't make something valuable so can't be used to back the value of a currency. You have a limited supply of toenail clippings, it doesn't make them valuable. It's the level of confidence people have in the value of the scarce item that's important. This can be called a shared delusion but it applies to everything. First edition comics only have value because of a shared interest people have in the value of comics and art. Original Apple 1 computers only have value because of how people value Apple today. If Apple had gone bankrupt, Apple 1 computers would be in the trash.

    The comparison between cryptocurrency and fiat currency is the confidence people have in the government's monetary policy that is reviewed and governed by thousands of people specifically elected to ensure the stability and prosperity of their entire countries vs some libertarian fantasists who hate governments and want to see the world turn into the wild west where the greediest person wins everything, is unaccountable for their trading actions, ultimately controls everything and doesn't pay taxes to share the burden of a civil society - the virtue of selfishness.

    Most people who bought into the idea of using bitcoins were looking to increase wealth like the Winklevoss Twins going from $11m to over $1b. They are motivated by greed, not by the utility of the currency, they have no intention of trading with it. For coins like stablecoins, they aren't limited in supply, they are designed to mirror fiat currencies for the purpose of being useful as a currency.

    - limited supply crypto doesn't scale to a large population without wild fluctuations in value and so leads people to treat it as a vehicle for wealth instead of a transaction utility. It's not feasible to create a loan/interest system with a fixed supply currency in isolation (it's only possible when used alongside fiat currency) so no economic growth to sync with growing population and GDP.
    - unlimited supply crypto mirrors fiat currency and will be susceptible to the same issues people see with currency supply controlled by monetary policy.

    People who saw an increase in value in their limited supply crypto have a lot of confidence in the system, just like investors who bought into a penny stock that turned out ok. Everybody loves things that make them wealthy. That doesn't make it a reliable system to apply to a large portion of a population who need stability just like it wouldn't make sense to have people trade in Apple stock. Last week someone could afford groceries but demand for the new iPhone is lower so this week they can't, it would be a ridiculous system. Bitcoin changes value 10x-20x in a matter of months. This is fine for traders/investors/speculators just like the stock market but it's not a currency alternative.

    It is being used widely for illegal activities, trading in weapons, drugs, trafficking, money laundering, ransomware at a scale of billions of dollars. That's not to say it's a bad thing because of this in the same way encryption also facilitates crime but Apple has one of the largest platforms in the world and they need to choose how to regulate it carefully.
  • Reply 44 of 55
    Marvin said:
    If we’re talking about the US Dollar, it’s backed solely by the Federal Reserve, no labor, commodities, or services are involved. You cannot redeem a Federal Reserve Note from the Federal Reserve for it’s equivalent in gold, silver or anything else. It’s a shared fantasy. As long as people continue to believe in the monetary fantasy, it continues to exist. Bitcoin (as one example) is a scarce resource. It has a measurable value based on consensus, not based on the manipulations of central banking authorities.

    Let’s face it, opinions about what is or isn’t valuable remain relative, despite some things being called money and other things being called commodities.
    Crypto currencies are backed by what used to back US currency: scarcity. Precious metals for traditional currency, and rare sequences in something like bitcoin. As spam said, US currency isn’t backed by precious metals anymore...it exists and has value because we all choose to believe it does. As someone said, money is a shared delusion.
    Some cryptocurrencies use a limited supply, some add more coins when needed and there's nothing stopping Bitcoin doing the same, it's a computer algorithm that can be changed by the group that controls it, it was already forked in two. Precious metals are different because the supply is out of the control of people entirely, that in itself is bad because it means countries with a large supply of natural resources would have an advantage regardless of their produce and newly discovered reserves would quickly change the value of everything. Some cryptocurrencies make a choice to limit the supply. But this is also true of fiat currency supply where the limiting factor is monetary policy:

    https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/monetarypolicy.asp

    "The Federal Reserve Bank is in charge of monetary policy in the United States. The Federal Reserve has what is commonly referred to as a "dual mandate": to achieve maximum employment while keeping inflation in check. Simply put, it is the Fed's responsibility to balance economic growth and inflation. In addition, it aims to keep long-term interest rates relatively low. Its core role is to be the lender of last resort, providing banks with liquidity and serve as a bank regulator, in order to prevent the bank failures and panics in the financial services sector."

    Having a strictly limited supply doesn't guarantee stability, far from it, as the examples mentioned earlier. Just look at the value graphs of all cryptocurrencies over time, they fluctuate wildly. Scarcity also doesn't make something valuable so can't be used to back the value of a currency. You have a limited supply of toenail clippings, it doesn't make them valuable. It's the level of confidence people have in the value of the scarce item that's important. This can be called a shared delusion but it applies to everything. First edition comics only have value because of a shared interest people have in the value of comics and art. Original Apple 1 computers only have value because of how people value Apple today. If Apple had gone bankrupt, Apple 1 computers would be in the trash.

    The comparison between cryptocurrency and fiat currency is the confidence people have in the government's monetary policy that is reviewed and governed by thousands of people specifically elected to ensure the stability and prosperity of their entire countries vs some libertarian fantasists who hate governments and want to see the world turn into the wild west where the greediest person wins everything, is unaccountable for their trading actions, ultimately controls everything and doesn't pay taxes to share the burden of a civil society - the virtue of selfishness.

    Most people who bought into the idea of using bitcoins were looking to increase wealth like the Winklevoss Twins going from $11m to over $1b. They are motivated by greed, not by the utility of the currency, they have no intention of trading with it. For coins like stablecoins, they aren't limited in supply, they are designed to mirror fiat currencies for the purpose of being useful as a currency.

    - limited supply crypto doesn't scale to a large population without wild fluctuations in value and so leads people to treat it as a vehicle for wealth instead of a transaction utility. It's not feasible to create a loan/interest system with a fixed supply currency in isolation (it's only possible when used alongside fiat currency) so no economic growth to sync with growing population and GDP.
    - unlimited supply crypto mirrors fiat currency and will be susceptible to the same issues people see with currency supply controlled by monetary policy.

    People who saw an increase in value in their limited supply crypto have a lot of confidence in the system, just like investors who bought into a penny stock that turned out ok. Everybody loves things that make them wealthy. That doesn't make it a reliable system to apply to a large portion of a population who need stability just like it wouldn't make sense to have people trade in Apple stock. Last week someone could afford groceries but demand for the new iPhone is lower so this week they can't, it would be a ridiculous system. Bitcoin changes value 10x-20x in a matter of months. This is fine for traders/investors/speculators just like the stock market but it's not a currency alternative.

    It is being used widely for illegal activities, trading in weapons, drugs, trafficking, money laundering, ransomware at a scale of billions of dollars. That's not to say it's a bad thing because of this in the same way encryption also facilitates crime but Apple has one of the largest platforms in the world and they need to choose how to regulate it carefully.
    I know you love diving into details, so I am going to seriously offer to you a few sources for exploration. Perhaps you’ve already seen them:

    Economic Cycles Before The Fed:  https://youtu.be/TxcjT8T3EGU

    Bitcoin Basics Workshop:  https://youtu.be/FYo5E7zT-vM

    Bitcoin Q&A: We All Started As Critics:  https://youtu.be/-jvefuVRwYA


    edited September 2020
  • Reply 45 of 55
    Marvin said:
    It is being used widely for illegal activities, trading in weapons, drugs, trafficking, money laundering, ransomware at a scale of billions of dollars.
    Which is why the USD should be banned this instant; as we simply cannot let a tool used for all those illegal activities to exist. There's simply no accountability with a currency that anonymously can be carried around and traded between criminals, or exchanged for illegal things/activities.  B)
    edited September 2020
  • Reply 46 of 55
    Why do all these cryptocurrency advocates remind me of Scientologists?
  • Reply 47 of 55
    svanstrom said:
    zimmie said:
    larryjw said:
    Cryptocurrencies are the biggest delusions on planet today. 
    One might counter argue that fiat currencies are the biggest delusion on the planet. All paper money not backed by something of value or subject to “printing” at the whim of a government authorities is less valuable than assets backed by the public ledger that is the blockchain and the more established cryptos cannot simply be “minted” at will. They rely on math for their scarcity and stability.
    First of all, crypto means cryptozoology, so unless you're talking about Bigfoot, you should write out the full term.
    Please tell me that that was a lame attempt at trolling; or that you in some other way weren't serious.

    Crypto- comes from old greek and means secret or hidden; and that prefix, when used alone like this, simply takes on the format of being short of whatever flavour of crypto-something is being talked about.

    Edit: Just to make things very clear, Bigfoot is a "cryptid", not a "crypto".
    I have done cryptography work. Not trolling so much as joking to explain why specificity in terms is important. The prefix "crypto" is applied to a large number of things. Cryptozoology is just the most ridiculous one I can think of offhand.

    People using it as shorthand for cryptocurrencies sound ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as the entire concept of cryptocurrencies.
  • Reply 48 of 55
    zimmie said:
    svanstrom said:
    zimmie said:
    larryjw said:
    Cryptocurrencies are the biggest delusions on planet today. 
    One might counter argue that fiat currencies are the biggest delusion on the planet. All paper money not backed by something of value or subject to “printing” at the whim of a government authorities is less valuable than assets backed by the public ledger that is the blockchain and the more established cryptos cannot simply be “minted” at will. They rely on math for their scarcity and stability.
    First of all, crypto means cryptozoology, so unless you're talking about Bigfoot, you should write out the full term.
    Please tell me that that was a lame attempt at trolling; or that you in some other way weren't serious.

    Crypto- comes from old greek and means secret or hidden; and that prefix, when used alone like this, simply takes on the format of being short of whatever flavour of crypto-something is being talked about.

    Edit: Just to make things very clear, Bigfoot is a "cryptid", not a "crypto".
    I have done cryptography work. Not trolling so much as joking to explain why specificity in terms is important. The prefix "crypto" is applied to a large number of things. Cryptozoology is just the most ridiculous one I can think of offhand.

    People using it as shorthand for cryptocurrencies sound ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as the entire concept of cryptocurrencies.
    Do you also like telling kids how their fashion is silly, and that back in your days things were so much better?
  • Reply 49 of 55
    MplsP said:
    tundraboy said:

    Besides, why would Apple, or any other private company, want to promote a currency and technology that enables drug dealers, cyber criminals, tax evaders, terrorist organizations and all other sorts of nefarious characters?  Why should any private company that is not a monopoly or a public utility be compelled to enter into a line of business that it does not want to be in?  Why is it a private company's obligation to promote a technology that it doesn't want to be involved in?

    Frankly, cryptocurrencies have not proved their value to society.  Even on a conceptual basis no one has made a credible case yet on how you can stop criminals from using it to conduct illegal transactions.
    This is my biggest objection to crypto currencies. There may be legitimate investors and speculators, but there are very places that actually use them as payment for goods and services (I.e. a currency’s primary purpose.) Their main use appears to be to allow a save transaction for ransomware, terrorist organizations, etc. 

    As for being an illusion, all currency is an illusion to a certain extent. The difference is dollars, euros, etc are backed by a government. Crypto currencies are backed by nothing. 
    You’ve been watching too much TV. 

    Crypto currencies are backed by what used to back US currency: scarcity. Precious metals for traditional currency, and rare sequences in something like bitcoin. As spam said, US currency isn’t backed by precious metals anymore...it exists and has value because we all choose to believe it does. As someone said, money is a shared delusion.
    If scarcity really mattered, platinum would be worth far more than gold. It has dramatically greater industrial utility, it's considered a finer material for jewelry and art, and it's dramatically more difficult to extract and refine. Around 3,500,000 kg of gold and 180,000 kg of platinum were produced worldwide in 2019.

    Iridium is even scarcer and has even greater utility than platinum. Only 6,860 kg produced worldwide in 2019.

    Yet both are less expensive than gold. Platinum is half the price and iridium has spiked up recently to be around 80% the price of gold per unit of mass.

    Clearly gold has something juicing its valuation. Almost like some kind of ... shared delusion?



    Generally, commodities whose value is derived from utility have the lowest volatility (beans, for example), major fiat currencies (USD, EUR, JPY, CNY, KRW) have more volatility, then "scarcity-valued" commodities (gold, cryptocurrencies) have high volatility. Minor fiat currencies (such as the Zimbabwean dollar) have so much volatility (generally in the form of rapid inflation) they effectively aren't used.
  • Reply 50 of 55
    tokyojimu said:
    Why do all these cryptocurrency advocates remind me of Scientologists?
    Does Paul Krugman remind you of a carnival barker? Because for my money he’s the biggest clown fraud in the economics game today.
  • Reply 51 of 55

    zimmie said:
    svanstrom said:
    zimmie said:
    larryjw said:
    Cryptocurrencies are the biggest delusions on planet today. 
    One might counter argue that fiat currencies are the biggest delusion on the planet. All paper money not backed by something of value or subject to “printing” at the whim of a government authorities is less valuable than assets backed by the public ledger that is the blockchain and the more established cryptos cannot simply be “minted” at will. They rely on math for their scarcity and stability.
    First of all, crypto means cryptozoology, so unless you're talking about Bigfoot, you should write out the full term.
    Please tell me that that was a lame attempt at trolling; or that you in some other way weren't serious.

    Crypto- comes from old greek and means secret or hidden; and that prefix, when used alone like this, simply takes on the format of being short of whatever flavour of crypto-something is being talked about.

    Edit: Just to make things very clear, Bigfoot is a "cryptid", not a "crypto".
    I have done cryptography work. Not trolling so much as joking to explain why specificity in terms is important. The prefix "crypto" is applied to a large number of things. Cryptozoology is just the most ridiculous one I can think of offhand.

    People using it as shorthand for cryptocurrencies sound ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as the entire concept of cryptocurrencies.
    There is something like $250-300 billion tied up in crypto these days. You could credibly criticize a subset of people who were ignorant and willing to throw their money away or another subset of scammers looking for suckers, but crypto holders are not exactly a small subset anymore. It’s a high growth, very hot sector attracting big names and a lot of money. It’ll disappear in failure about the same time the Internet disappears in failure.
  • Reply 52 of 55

    zimmie said:
    MplsP said:
    tundraboy said:

    Besides, why would Apple, or any other private company, want to promote a currency and technology that enables drug dealers, cyber criminals, tax evaders, terrorist organizations and all other sorts of nefarious characters?  Why should any private company that is not a monopoly or a public utility be compelled to enter into a line of business that it does not want to be in?  Why is it a private company's obligation to promote a technology that it doesn't want to be involved in?

    Frankly, cryptocurrencies have not proved their value to society.  Even on a conceptual basis no one has made a credible case yet on how you can stop criminals from using it to conduct illegal transactions.
    This is my biggest objection to crypto currencies. There may be legitimate investors and speculators, but there are very places that actually use them as payment for goods and services (I.e. a currency’s primary purpose.) Their main use appears to be to allow a save transaction for ransomware, terrorist organizations, etc. 

    As for being an illusion, all currency is an illusion to a certain extent. The difference is dollars, euros, etc are backed by a government. Crypto currencies are backed by nothing. 
    You’ve been watching too much TV. 

    Crypto currencies are backed by what used to back US currency: scarcity. Precious metals for traditional currency, and rare sequences in something like bitcoin. As spam said, US currency isn’t backed by precious metals anymore...it exists and has value because we all choose to believe it does. As someone said, money is a shared delusion.
    If scarcity really mattered, platinum would be worth far more than gold. It has dramatically greater industrial utility, it's considered a finer material for jewelry and art, and it's dramatically more difficult to extract and refine. Around 3,500,000 kg of gold and 180,000 kg of platinum were produced worldwide in 2019.

    Iridium is even scarcer and has even greater utility than platinum. Only 6,860 kg produced worldwide in 2019.

    Yet both are less expensive than gold. Platinum is half the price and iridium has spiked up recently to be around 80% the price of gold per unit of mass.

    Clearly gold has something juicing its valuation. Almost like some kind of ... shared delusion?



    Generally, commodities whose value is derived from utility have the lowest volatility (beans, for example), major fiat currencies (USD, EUR, JPY, CNY, KRW) have more volatility, then "scarcity-valued" commodities (gold, cryptocurrencies) have high volatility. Minor fiat currencies (such as the Zimbabwean dollar) have so much volatility (generally in the form of rapid inflation) they effectively aren't used.
    Commodities have value because of how markets value them... by consensus, by utility, by negotiation, by scarcity. This is very similar to cryptocoins. The valuable ones will succeed, the bad ones will fade away or be devalued by the forces of competition.
  • Reply 53 of 55
    tundraboy said:
     

    Besides, why would Apple, or any other private company, want to promote a currency and technology that enables drug dealers, cyber criminals, tax evaders, terrorist organizations and all other sorts of nefarious characters?  Why should any private company that is not a monopoly or a public utility be compelled to enter into a line of business that it does not want to be in?  Why is it a private company's obligation to promote a technology that it doesn't want to be involved in?

    Frankly, cryptocurrencies have not proved their value to society.  Even on a conceptual basis no one has made a credible case yet on how you can stop criminals from using it to conduct illegal transactions.

    Interesting position to take when the USD, in the form of cash, has facilitated more drug deals, tax evaders and terrorists than cryptocurrency ever has. Doubly interesting as the overwhelming majority of crypto, and specifically Bitcoin, has a publicly available ledger which allows much greater transparency in movement of funds between accounts. This is BY DESIGN. If I was a criminal, I’d be sticking to cash.
  • Reply 53 of 55
    zimmie said:
    larryjw said:
    Cryptocurrencies are the biggest delusions on planet today. 
    One might counter argue that fiat currencies are the biggest delusion on the planet. All paper money not backed by something of value or subject to “printing” at the whim of a government authorities is less valuable than assets backed by the public ledger that is the blockchain and the more established cryptos cannot simply be “minted” at will. They rely on math for their scarcity and stability.
    First of all, crypto means cryptozoology, so unless you're talking about Bigfoot, you should write out the full term.

    Cryptocurrency tokens are scarce, but scarcity does not equate to value. They have zero utility, and therefore have zero intrinsic value. All that remains is asserted market value, which comes solely from what others are willing to pay for an intrinsically-worthless number. 
    Interesting take. I paid off my car loan with Bitcoin so it clearly had value to myself, as well as my bank. I’ve paid a multitude of bills, from my home loan to utilities.
     
    I am a user of crypto.com and they have a financial services licence in Australia which means they are compliant with strict government standards. I can load fiat with a bank transfer which completes in seconds, and I can transfer fiat out back to my bank account and it is also available in seconds. I earn interest on my crypto and I can also take a loan in crypto. I have a metal visa card associated with my account which can be funded by either my crypto or fiat. It can be loaded with 7 different fiat currencies, has payWave and can be used worldwide with perfect interbank exchange rates, no fee ATM withdrawals, 5% cash back on purchases, 100% back on Spotify, Netflix and Amazon Prime and airport lounge access.

    Clearly it’s a scam though, because a misinformed person on the internet said so.


    edited September 2020
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