Next Apple TV could use A12Z or "A14X" in big Apple Arcade push

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 51
    alandailalandail Posts: 702member
    If they haven't already done so, they need to fix the issue that you can't use two controllers to play a multi-player game. I tried to set it up to play a game with my grandkids and had to pull out iPads to add other players instead of doing it all on the Apple TV like any other gaming system would support. Don't want to lose multi-player over a network, just dont' want to require it.
    Beatswatto_cobra
  • Reply 22 of 51
    cloudguycloudguy Posts: 323member
    Beats said:
    cloudguy said:
    Except that "Breath of the Wild" runs on cheap Android tablet hardware. Seriously it has similar internals to the Nvidia Shield line of tablets and set top boxes. Basically the same as Samsung Galaxt Tab A tablets. (The Galaxy Tab S are their more premium tablets that contain the flagship Qualcomm and Exynos SOCs). Also the original version of that game ran on the 720p Wii U.

    So I have no idea why that comparison is made. Should have compared it to some of the more graphically demanding PS4 or XBox One or Steam games instead of a title that is anime style 1080p - the least demanding - instead of realistic 4K like The Last of Us 2, The Avengers, Spiderman etc.

    Also, whether a truly graphically demanding 4K game can be funded with the Apple Arcade subscription model when such games have bigger budgets and longer development times than blockbuster Hollywood movies - like 5 years and $200 million easy - is very debatable. So I do not know who they are trying to convince - or fool - here but it certainly isn't serious gamers who know about actual AAA video game development lifecycles and the hardware that it requires to play it. To put it another way, the hottest game right now - Genshin Impact - looks absolutely gorgeous and plays just fine on inexpensive Android phones. Doesn't require an A12Z or A14 chip at all or anything close. It runs fine on $200 Android phones that have MediaTek and lower end Qualcomm chips. And yes, Genshin Impact is a BoW clone, to the extent that its creators recently held a press conference to describe the differences between the two games.

    Genshin Impact is not "hot". Also funny how people call copycat games "clones" but forgive Android iKnockoffs for being 99% the same. They make Breath of the Wild clones look 99% original. Selective criticism.

    Anyways the current Apple TV is already more powerful than the switch. The problem is, Apple tries to support as many platforms as possible so there's a lower support threshold. I believe Apple TV games have to support iPhone 6. If Apple lifted that limit for iPad Pro and Apple TV then we would see some great development on the scale of GTA V.
    Android, which was in development since 2004, runs on a custom Linux kernel and uses a customized Java for its application stack, is not an iOS clone in any sense. As for hardware the SOC and instruction set are entirely different. And the OS gets features that it takes years for Apple to adopt - like widgets - and the same with hardware like NFC, OLED, wireless charging, 5G and foldables.
     
    If you think that Genshin Impact hasn't been dominating the gaming conversation since prior to its release then you know less about gaming than about mobile tech. And since you stated that you were shocked months ago that Android apps generate tens of billions in revenue each year you clearly know nothing about that.

    But my original point was that using a 1080p game that runs on the low end Android tablet hardware that is the Nintendo Switch to hype 4K games coming to Apple Arcade reveals that either Apple has no idea what they are talking about or hope that the intended audience simply doesn't know any better. My guess is the latter. But investigate the development time and budget of an ACTUAL 4K game from an AAA or even leading indie studio.
    You will see that Apple can either invest the years and the hundreds of millions that it takes to produce a top 4K title or keep with the Apple Arcade games that can be made quickly and cheaply with existing mobile engines and frameworks but they cannot do both.
    cg27
  • Reply 23 of 51
    Correction. They most certainly can develop both AAA titles and mobile ones. Microsoft has been doing that for awhile. Forza is a great example as it is both a 4K game on XBox and a free to play game on mobile. But they need to talk about how they are going to turn the Apple TV into a (last gen ... it can't compete with PS5 or XBox X) console with a massive infusion of resources and support, not name dropping a title that can run on a cheap 3 year old Android tablet that is coming your way via a $5 a month service.

    Point of contrast ... Microsoft spent $7.5 billion for Bethesda just to get more titles for xCloud (for the near term anyway).  By contrast, Lucasfilm (Star Wars!!!) only cost Disney $4 billion, which is also how much Disney paid for Marvel ($4 billion). Gaming is a bigger industry than Hollywood now and was BEFORE covid-19 obliterated the film industry this year (AND caused a gaming boom). 

    If Apple is going to make Apple TV - and Apple Silicon generally - a real gaming platform beyond mobile titles that is just a hint of the investment that it would take.
    edited October 2020 cg27
  • Reply 24 of 51
    So I’m just going to say it. 

    As an Apple Arcade subscriber, it basically sucks. 

    Limited content that I actually want to play. 

    I had one game that was worth it to me and that’s it. 

    Apple makes truly amazing hardware, UI, ux, and productivity software. 

    But they need to either get seriously about about gaming or just go back to letting devs sell silly little games on iPhone and quit pretending that a selection mobile games Is anything special. 

    Xcloud? Heck yes. No wonder They we’re afraid of allowing it in the App Store. 

    Apple could dominate with an Apple silicon Apple TV that is an all in one entertainment device - including safari and Apple Music. But also with the horsepower for relevant console quality gaming. 

    Will it cost more than $149 or $199? Yes. But worth it. 

    And that’s where apple excels. Hardware thats worth a dang plus compelling software. 

    Apple Arcade just doesn’t even come close. 

    GeorgeBMacmuthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 51
    Apple could dominate with an Apple silicon Apple TV that is an all in one entertainment device - including safari and Apple Music. But also with the horsepower for relevant console quality gaming. 

    Will it cost more than $149 or $199? Yes. But worth it. 

    I still believe that xCloud is more about Apple not wanting to see the shift from locally executed software to streaming applications. The companies pushing streaming video games - Nvidia, Google, Microsoft, now Amazon - are all major cloud providers who can monetize streaming applications. Apple is not and cannot. If more of the great apps that right now are only available on iPads and iPhones shift to being hosted in the cloud and accessible by anyone with a Chromebook or cheap Android, Windows or Linux device, what is the advantage in paying $1000 for an iPad Pro? So the whole deal is bigger than Apple's merely trying to protect a $5 a month gaming service. Instead their 40 year business model as a premium hardware provider is at stake.

    As far as the "all in one entertainment device" ... two things.
    0. For the short term, PlayStation and XBox are "all in one entertainment devices" right now and big time. They don't offer Apple's specific apps and services, but they offer their own and third party ones that are comparable. Meanwhile, it would take years - and tens (hundreds?) of billions for Apple to build up a gaming library comparable to theirs.
    1. See above. Though Microsoft CLAIMS that xCloud and the XBox can coexist - largely because you can charge $70 per game for the latter - they would be fine junking a hardware product that takes years to turn a profit because its margins are so small in favor of their cloud product. Amazon and now Google have proved that you can provide a quality 4K streaming device for $50. If you can stream video games to that device - and the other entertainment apps can already be streamed to that device - what would be the purpose of a significantly more expensive device running an A14 chip that never does much in terms. So by the time the years that it would take for Apple to build up a decent gaming library for Apple Silicon passes, the gaming industry may well have shifted to the cloud model anyway.
  • Reply 26 of 51
    Rival BotW? Gimmie a break. It’s one of the greatest games ever made. Another Oceanhorn is not Zelda. 
    Beats
  • Reply 27 of 51
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    cloudguy said:
    Beats said:
    cloudguy said:
    Except that "Breath of the Wild" runs on cheap Android tablet hardware. Seriously it has similar internals to the Nvidia Shield line of tablets and set top boxes. Basically the same as Samsung Galaxt Tab A tablets. (The Galaxy Tab S are their more premium tablets that contain the flagship Qualcomm and Exynos SOCs). Also the original version of that game ran on the 720p Wii U.

    So I have no idea why that comparison is made. Should have compared it to some of the more graphically demanding PS4 or XBox One or Steam games instead of a title that is anime style 1080p - the least demanding - instead of realistic 4K like The Last of Us 2, The Avengers, Spiderman etc.

    Also, whether a truly graphically demanding 4K game can be funded with the Apple Arcade subscription model when such games have bigger budgets and longer development times than blockbuster Hollywood movies - like 5 years and $200 million easy - is very debatable. So I do not know who they are trying to convince - or fool - here but it certainly isn't serious gamers who know about actual AAA video game development lifecycles and the hardware that it requires to play it. To put it another way, the hottest game right now - Genshin Impact - looks absolutely gorgeous and plays just fine on inexpensive Android phones. Doesn't require an A12Z or A14 chip at all or anything close. It runs fine on $200 Android phones that have MediaTek and lower end Qualcomm chips. And yes, Genshin Impact is a BoW clone, to the extent that its creators recently held a press conference to describe the differences between the two games.

    Genshin Impact is not "hot". Also funny how people call copycat games "clones" but forgive Android iKnockoffs for being 99% the same. They make Breath of the Wild clones look 99% original. Selective criticism.

    Anyways the current Apple TV is already more powerful than the switch. The problem is, Apple tries to support as many platforms as possible so there's a lower support threshold. I believe Apple TV games have to support iPhone 6. If Apple lifted that limit for iPad Pro and Apple TV then we would see some great development on the scale of GTA V.
    Android, which was in development since 2004, runs on a custom Linux kernel and uses a customized Java for its application stack, is not an iOS clone in any sense. As for hardware the SOC and instruction set are entirely different. And the OS gets features that it takes years for Apple to adopt - like widgets - and the same with hardware like NFC, OLED, wireless charging, 5G and foldables.
     
    If you think that Genshin Impact hasn't been dominating the gaming conversation since prior to its release then you know less about gaming than about mobile tech. And since you stated that you were shocked months ago that Android apps generate tens of billions in revenue each year you clearly know nothing about that.

    But my original point was that using a 1080p game that runs on the low end Android tablet hardware that is the Nintendo Switch to hype 4K games coming to Apple Arcade reveals that either Apple has no idea what they are talking about or hope that the intended audience simply doesn't know any better. My guess is the latter. But investigate the development time and budget of an ACTUAL 4K game from an AAA or even leading indie studio.
    You will see that Apple can either invest the years and the hundreds of millions that it takes to produce a top 4K title or keep with the Apple Arcade games that can be made quickly and cheaply with existing mobile engines and frameworks but they cannot do both.

    Oh never mind. You're the guy who thinks Android invented the iPhone and that Apple copied Android for their iPhone invention.

    Ridiculous.







    You have to be a special kind of dummy to think Google is some visionary company that invented the brilliant Apple innovations we use today. Google is an ad company that harvests user data. Innovation and invention is not in their DNA.
    mike1mcdavewatto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 51
    BeatsBeats Posts: 3,073member
    So I’m just going to say it. 

    As an Apple Arcade subscriber, it basically sucks. 

    Limited content that I actually want to play. 

    I had one game that was worth it to me and that’s it. 

    Apple makes truly amazing hardware, UI, ux, and productivity software. 

    But they need to either get seriously about about gaming or just go back to letting devs sell silly little games on iPhone and quit pretending that a selection mobile games Is anything special. 

    Xcloud? Heck yes. No wonder They we’re afraid of allowing it in the App Store. 

    Apple could dominate with an Apple silicon Apple TV that is an all in one entertainment device - including safari and Apple Music. But also with the horsepower for relevant console quality gaming. 

    Will it cost more than $149 or $199? Yes. But worth it. 

    And that’s where apple excels. Hardware thats worth a dang plus compelling software. 

    Apple Arcade just doesn’t even come close. 


    I agree Apple Arcade sucks but how in the world was Apple "afraid" of XCloud? It didn't follow the rules plain and simple. Do you think Apple was afraid of Epic when they kicked them out? Is Wal-Mart afraid of me when I get kicked out for stealing? Stop making crap up.
  • Reply 29 of 51
    The problem with cloud gaming is you need good internet. Not everyone will have good enough internet. Ever ride a subway? You get nothing between the stations. Rural areas like where we go camping have very poor cell service. Lucky to get cell service at all in some places getting LTE is hard. 5g? Forget it. Give me a game I can store and operate without internet on my device. 

    Loved Apple Arcade. Had to cut costs so it sand other things we cut. Now that they are bundling services, it is a no brainer. 
    Beatswatto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 51
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,684member
    When are they going to do something about that controller? Worst hand held control since the puck mouse. 
    sorry, I have to disagree. The original Apple TV remote was even worse
    Beats
  • Reply 31 of 51
    alandail said:
    If they haven't already done so, they need to fix the issue that you can't use two controllers to play a multi-player game. I tried to set it up to play a game with my grandkids and had to pull out iPads to add other players instead of doing it all on the Apple TV like any other gaming system would support. Don't want to lose multi-player over a network, just dont' want to require it.
    You can pair more than one controller with ATV or any other device that uses Apple Arcade. It's already supported.

    https://appletoolbox.com/how-to-setup-local-multiplayer-and-two-player-mode-on-apple-arcade/#How_to_set_up_Apple_Arcade_Local_Multiplayer_and_Two-Player_Mode
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 51
    9secondkox2 said:  Xcloud? Heck yes. No wonder They we’re afraid of allowing it in the App Store. 
    Is MS afraid of porting their old Halo, Gears, and Forza games to the App Store? 
    Beatswatto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 51
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    Beats said:
    So I’m just going to say it. 

    As an Apple Arcade subscriber, it basically sucks. 

    Limited content that I actually want to play. 

    I had one game that was worth it to me and that’s it. 

    Apple makes truly amazing hardware, UI, ux, and productivity software. 

    But they need to either get seriously about about gaming or just go back to letting devs sell silly little games on iPhone and quit pretending that a selection mobile games Is anything special. 

    Xcloud? Heck yes. No wonder They we’re afraid of allowing it in the App Store. 

    Apple could dominate with an Apple silicon Apple TV that is an all in one entertainment device - including safari and Apple Music. But also with the horsepower for relevant console quality gaming. 

    Will it cost more than $149 or $199? Yes. But worth it. 

    And that’s where apple excels. Hardware thats worth a dang plus compelling software. 

    Apple Arcade just doesn’t even come close. 


    I agree Apple Arcade sucks but how in the world was Apple "afraid" of XCloud? It didn't follow the rules plain and simple. Do you think Apple was afraid of Epic when they kicked them out? Is Wal-Mart afraid of me when I get kicked out for stealing? Stop making crap up.

    I took his point to be that cloud computing threatens Apple's core business model of selling high end hardware loaded with and powered by proprietary software.
    From that perspective, gaming is just one facet of that battle.   While cloud computing is a long way from threatening Apple's mobile devices (even with 5G), it is a clear and present danger to its more sedentary devices like MacBooks.

    He may or may not be right.   But it is certainly an interesting and potentially valid point:  that Apple is not fighting a specific company or product but a technological wave.
  • Reply 34 of 51
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,762member
    Beats said:
    So I’m just going to say it. 

    As an Apple Arcade subscriber, it basically sucks. 

    Limited content that I actually want to play. 

    I had one game that was worth it to me and that’s it. 

    Apple makes truly amazing hardware, UI, ux, and productivity software. 

    But they need to either get seriously about about gaming or just go back to letting devs sell silly little games on iPhone and quit pretending that a selection mobile games Is anything special. 

    Xcloud? Heck yes. No wonder They we’re afraid of allowing it in the App Store. 

    Apple could dominate with an Apple silicon Apple TV that is an all in one entertainment device - including safari and Apple Music. But also with the horsepower for relevant console quality gaming. 

    Will it cost more than $149 or $199? Yes. But worth it. 

    And that’s where apple excels. Hardware thats worth a dang plus compelling software. 

    Apple Arcade just doesn’t even come close. 


    I agree Apple Arcade sucks but how in the world was Apple "afraid" of XCloud? It didn't follow the rules plain and simple. Do you think Apple was afraid of Epic when they kicked them out? Is Wal-Mart afraid of me when I get kicked out for stealing? Stop making crap up.

    I took his point to be that cloud computing threatens Apple's core business model of selling high end hardware loaded with and powered by proprietary software.
    From that perspective, gaming is just one facet of that battle.   While cloud computing is a long way from threatening Apple's mobile devices (even with 5G), it is a clear and present danger to its more sedentary devices like MacBooks.

    He may or may not be right.   But it is certainly an interesting and potentially valid point:  that Apple is not fighting a specific company or product but a technological wave.
    He's wrong.

    In "work to be done". Watch, iPhones, iPad, Mac Mini's, iMac's, Mac Pro, MacBooks and MacBook Pro, and Apple TV's, all underserve the needs of the buyers at some point in their life cycle, and are replaced, sometimes with different devices. It's folly to think that Apple doesn't understand its own customers and markets, and that Apple is somehow incapable of transitioning to cloud computing, should if become necessary in the future. One almost has to forget all of the rumors about Apple "glasses" to believe that some moat is preventing Apple from cloud computing on a large scale.

    What is true, is that all of those sales of Xbox, PS5, Switch, and Gaming PC's, are still the basis of AAA gaming, not client computers or streaming, which are today and in the foreseeable future, lesser experiences. That the various parties are finding a market for gaming subscription services, is as much about the user's desire for ubiquitous gaming on a wide variety of platforms, at their discretion, as about access to a wide range of affordable games. 

    Do you think that Apple is incapable of ever delivering a AAA gaming experience, or is it just that Apple is more interested in the low hanging fruit of extremely profitable hardware and services that they have mastered enjoy today?
    edited October 2020 foregoneconclusionBeatswatto_cobra
  • Reply 35 of 51
    mike1mike1 Posts: 3,026member
    Wait. Weren't there already new Apple TV models just sitting in a warehouse somewhere just waiting for the right time to launch???
    Beatsmuthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
  • Reply 36 of 51
    davgregdavgreg Posts: 968member
    Apple Arcade needs to have solid versions of classic board games like Scrabble (the new version from Hasbro sucks), Othello/Reversi, Backgammon, Chinese Checkers , Risk and such with GameCenter support for online play. Big Bang used to have a set of board games for the Mac with beautiful graphics and gameplay. Casual gaming is a huge market that is mostly ad supported crap these days.

    It would also be nice to see modern (not retro) graphics versions of many old classic arcade and console games. There is a ton of IP out there just crying out to be ported to Apple’s platforms and updated. With the cash pile Apple has available, this should not be a problem and a lot of the IP could probably be bought inexpensively.
    tmayBeatswatto_cobra
  • Reply 37 of 51
    XedXed Posts: 1,479member
    davgreg said:
    Apple Arcade needs to have solid versions of classic board games like Scrabble (the new version from Hasbro sucks), Othello/Reversi, Backgammon, Chinese Checkers , Risk and such with GameCenter support for online play. Big Bang used to have a set of board games for the Mac with beautiful graphics and gameplay. Casual gaming is a huge market that is mostly ad supported crap these days.

    It would also be nice to see modern (not retro) graphics versions of many old classic arcade and console games. There is a ton of IP out there just crying out to be ported to Apple’s platforms and updated. With the cash pile Apple has available, this should not be a problem and a lot of the IP could probably be bought inexpensively.
    Most board games will need to use iPhones and iPads so players can keep their cards and tiles from prying eyes, but that does seem like fun.

    PS: One thing I've always disliked about Words with Friends is that the board is static. Once you get towards the end of the game with fewer tiles to use and the edge of the board cramping your options the game always became less enjoyable. I wish that it would scroll to meet its opposite side so that a word you built on the right side could meet up with a word you start building on the left, and the same for up and down. I feel this would add a layer to the game that simply isn't possible for a physical board game.
    edited October 2020 watto_cobra
  • Reply 38 of 51
    mike1 said:
    Wait. Weren't there already new Apple TV models just sitting in a warehouse somewhere just waiting for the right time to launch???
    Haha...yeah, that was the rumor back in early May: an A12X ATV model was supposed to launch in short order. 
    GeorgeBMacBeatsmuthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
  • Reply 39 of 51
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    tmay said:
    Beats said:
    So I’m just going to say it. 

    As an Apple Arcade subscriber, it basically sucks. 

    Limited content that I actually want to play. 

    I had one game that was worth it to me and that’s it. 

    Apple makes truly amazing hardware, UI, ux, and productivity software. 

    But they need to either get seriously about about gaming or just go back to letting devs sell silly little games on iPhone and quit pretending that a selection mobile games Is anything special. 

    Xcloud? Heck yes. No wonder They we’re afraid of allowing it in the App Store. 

    Apple could dominate with an Apple silicon Apple TV that is an all in one entertainment device - including safari and Apple Music. But also with the horsepower for relevant console quality gaming. 

    Will it cost more than $149 or $199? Yes. But worth it. 

    And that’s where apple excels. Hardware thats worth a dang plus compelling software. 

    Apple Arcade just doesn’t even come close. 


    I agree Apple Arcade sucks but how in the world was Apple "afraid" of XCloud? It didn't follow the rules plain and simple. Do you think Apple was afraid of Epic when they kicked them out? Is Wal-Mart afraid of me when I get kicked out for stealing? Stop making crap up.

    I took his point to be that cloud computing threatens Apple's core business model of selling high end hardware loaded with and powered by proprietary software.
    From that perspective, gaming is just one facet of that battle.   While cloud computing is a long way from threatening Apple's mobile devices (even with 5G), it is a clear and present danger to its more sedentary devices like MacBooks.

    He may or may not be right.   But it is certainly an interesting and potentially valid point:  that Apple is not fighting a specific company or product but a technological wave.
    He's wrong.

    In "work to be done". Watch, iPhones, iPad, Mac Mini's, iMac's, Mac Pro, MacBooks and MacBook Pro, and Apple TV's, all underserve the needs of the buyers at some point in their life cycle, and are replaced, sometimes with different devices. It's folly to think that Apple doesn't understand its own customers and markets, and that Apple is somehow incapable of transitioning to cloud computing, should if become necessary in the future. One almost has to forget all of the rumors about Apple "glasses" to believe that some moat is preventing Apple from cloud computing on a large scale.

    What is true, is that all of those sales of Xbox, PS5, Switch, and Gaming PC's, are still the basis of AAA gaming, not client computers or streaming, which are today and in the foreseeable future, lesser experiences. That the various parties are finding a market for gaming subscription services, is as much about the user's desire for ubiquitous gaming on a wide variety of platforms, at their discretion, as about access to a wide range of affordable games. 

    Do you think that Apple is incapable of ever delivering a AAA gaming experience, or is it just that Apple is more interested in the low hanging fruit of extremely profitable hardware and services that they have mastered enjoy today?

    I would say that its folly to believe that Apple is omniscient and that computing won't move on to the next step (or in truth, it's more like back to the future).

    Actually, i would say that knowing that they are not omniscient is a primary strength of great organizations.   And, while I am saying that I think Apple is one of those great organizations, they may not be well positioned to take what may be that next step.   But, right now, it looks like gaming will be increasingly moving towards the cloud.

    Apple not only adjusted well to that move to cloud computing when it came to music but, to a large extent, they drove it.
    And, Apple responded well to the move of putting personal photographs into the cloud.
    Video is already headed in that direction (or has it already arrived?) and Apple dealt with that well too.
    Now, it appears that gaming may be headed that way too.   Will Apple stay on top of it?    Only God and Apple know the answer to that.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 40 of 51
    If Apple is making a push into higher-end gaming, you can be sure that they’ve been working with high-end game companies to port their games over to the Apple ecosystem.

    Given that Big Sur will run iOS & iPadOS apps natively on Apple Silicon, you’ll be able to play games on iPhones, iPads, Macs & AppleTV.

    Apple would wait until enough games were ported before launching a new AppleTV.

    Apple Arcade has provided them a test for a gaming service. They could later launch Apple Arcade+ for higher-end games. And they can include it in a higher-end Apple One subscription.

    Rumored Apple AR work would also likely be planned to be adapted for entertainment.

    Apple seems to have been working on many initiatives that could support a successful foray into games.

    Remember, the Wii wasn’t as powerful as its competitors, but did a good business.

    Graphics would likely be good enough on whatever SoC Apple uses for a new AppleTV.

    If it sells for much less than the new XBox & PS, provides Siri & Home integration, maybe comes with a discount for Apple One, etc., a new AppleTV could do quite well.

    Apple could also release a cheap stick device that provides the non-gaming features.
    tmayforegoneconclusionwatto_cobra
Sign In or Register to comment.