AppleCapitalism has caused a massive race to the bottom for manufacturing costs so companies are doing what they need to do in order to win the contract. If the protection of the employees was so important why were these conditions not outlined in the contract? You can’t tell me that Applea company involved in outsourcing wasn’t aware of these practices ahead of agreeing to do business with them - I would find it incredibly hard to believe that Applea company involved in outsourcing didn’t do it’s diligence in ensuring that the costs could be met without reduction to the quality of the output. The number 1 reason why companies outsource from the US is that labor costs are too high.While I do believe at times unions abuse their position they were implemented to ensure fair treatment and wages for workers which has resulted in higher costs of doing business in the US. If fair and ethical treatment is a priority then move the manufacturing to the US - while not perfect, the US is one of the world’s leaders in protection of employeesshareholder value.
Somewhat better now ... but some of your assertions are still not entirely accurate.
I've had firsthand exposure to the dynamics of outsourcing and I know that each case is very different. I've seen entire divisions and factories of a company I worked for crated up by the outgoing US workers and shipped to China, lock stock and barrel - because the business they were in was no longer profitable to perform in the US, and hadn't been for at least a decade prior. The only thing left in the US was empty shells of buildings and superfund cleanup problems.
I've seen the manufacturing arm of a company I worked for sold off to a contract manufacturer who then walled off the manufacturing parts of the business from the engineering parts of the business, even at the same sites, because the manufacturing workers were now building products for both our company and our competitors. These manufacturing worker's job security and benefits improved, at least temporarily, because they were no longer bound to the success of only one company. But anyway, this move was done to get those former manufacturing employees off the books, especially as the company was moving more towards services, software, and automation.
I was heavily involved with creating a new product line that was focused on selling into non-US low-cost markets where the company's existing products could not compete due to cost and capabilities that exceeded the need in those countries. Imagine you have a high-end product line that requires a vast sales and distribution channel and you're trying to compete against local companies who are selling lower end stuff out of the back of their shops or online. To get your toe in the door and establish presence in emerging markets with tremendous upside potential you have to tailor your way of doing business to fit the market. This involves developing the products, including hardware and software locally, and taking advantage of lower costs, and cough cough ... some nice tax incentives and subsidies to set up shop in countries that are very aggressive about attracting new businesses that create local jobs. So in this case it wasn't about outsourcing at all, it was about establishing presence in new markets, tailoring your product to the market, competing at a different level, and of course taking advantage of incentives that materially helped the overall business, in other words, increasing shareholder value.
I can't provide any detailed specifics about labor rates, but I can say that the deltas between the US and locations where (software, hardware, and systems) development and manufacturing are outsourced tend to shrink over time and the cost of doing business always increases due to other factors like shipping, time differences, currency exchange rates, and several other factors, like time boxed subsidies running out. This is why you see companies moving from say China or Singapore to the Philippines, Viet Nam, Columbia, or wherever. It's a constant challenge and a continuous struggle, but capitalism is a cruel master and you have to play by its rules if you're going to stay in that game.
Globally, it always comes down to Capitalism. And, capitalism always comes down to survival of the fittest.
No chance of ever replacing these human workers with robots in the US... ever?
Why not robots in China? That's where the expertise, investment and infrastructure is. Here, we're only interested in defense spending and stock buybacks -- neither of which are good investments for the future.
The U.S. has to realize that industry gravitates to and flourishes in the best environment. And, to attract and keep industry you need to be the best. Not the best whiner.
The largest industrial and manufacturing robotics companies are mainly in Europe and Japan. I’d imagine there are a lot of robotics applications done in China but the incentives for automation are diminished by the ready access to a massive, and in most cases highly skilled (vocational), labor force. In complex manufacturing and assembly there’s always a need for humans to complement the automation. What we’re lacking in the US is the large pool of highly skilled workers. The reasons for the deficit are what needs to be addressed.
Yeh, true. And, although China is largely capitalist, it has a socialist government who has little incentive to put people out of work with robots. That might be the break western, capitalist nations need...
No chance of ever replacing these human workers with robots in the US... ever?
Why not robots in China? That's where the expertise, investment and infrastructure is. Here, we're only interested in defense spending and stock buybacks -- neither of which are good investments for the future.
The U.S. has to realize that industry gravitates to and flourishes in the best environment. And, to attract and keep industry you need to be the best. Not the best whiner.
The largest industrial and manufacturing robotics companies are mainly in Europe and Japan. I’d imagine there are a lot of robotics applications done in China but the incentives for automation are diminished by the ready access to a massive, and in most cases highly skilled (vocational), labor force. In complex manufacturing and assembly there’s always a need for humans to complement the automation. What we’re lacking in the US is the large pool of highly skilled workers. The reasons for the deficit are what needs to be addressed.
Yeh, true. And, although China is largely capitalist, it has a socialist government who has little incentive to put people out of work with robots. That might be the break western, capitalist nations need...
Most people don't realize the world has transitioned to a new internet culture which was caused by the third industrial revolution. Some people adapted to it, Some can't and become whining.
No chance of ever replacing these human workers with robots in the US... ever?
Why not robots in China? That's where the expertise, investment and infrastructure is. Here, we're only interested in defense spending and stock buybacks -- neither of which are good investments for the future.
The U.S. has to realize that industry gravitates to and flourishes in the best environment. And, to attract and keep industry you need to be the best. Not the best whiner.
The largest industrial and manufacturing robotics companies are mainly in Europe and Japan. I’d imagine there are a lot of robotics applications done in China but the incentives for automation are diminished by the ready access to a massive, and in most cases highly skilled (vocational), labor force. In complex manufacturing and assembly there’s always a need for humans to complement the automation. What we’re lacking in the US is the large pool of highly skilled workers. The reasons for the deficit are what needs to be addressed.
The reason China has been and continues to be used is about economics and access to Chinese markets.
No chance of ever replacing these human workers with robots in the US... ever?
Why not robots in China? That's where the expertise, investment and infrastructure is. Here, we're only interested in defense spending and stock buybacks -- neither of which are good investments for the future.
The U.S. has to realize that industry gravitates to and flourishes in the best environment. And, to attract and keep industry you need to be the best. Not the best whiner.
The largest industrial and manufacturing robotics companies are mainly in Europe and Japan. I’d imagine there are a lot of robotics applications done in China but the incentives for automation are diminished by the ready access to a massive, and in most cases highly skilled (vocational), labor force. In complex manufacturing and assembly there’s always a need for humans to complement the automation. What we’re lacking in the US is the large pool of highly skilled workers. The reasons for the deficit are what needs to be addressed.
The reason China has been and continues to be used is about economics and access to Chinese markets.
What About the poor students, maybe they want to work over time to help pay for school. I know when I was in college I jump at any opportunity to work over time. Time and half is great you get 50% more pay for no additional effort on your part.
I said this before, it should not be a responsibility of any company to enforce work standards outside their own company. This is why laws exist. In the US if you found out a company was violated labor laws, you do not call the the companies who buy from them or the consumer who buy from them you call the Government and they fix it. Notice all the people who are upset with the labor practices in other countries are not jumping on plane to protest these countries, not they run to Apple and protest Apple, Ask yourself why they are not in China or Vietnam fighting for these people.
I disagree. Apple has a right to place whatever "standards" it wishes to place on its suppliers. It doesn't matter where or how these standards are enforced in the host country. The "law" does not stipulate or enforce quality standards that Apple places on its suppliers. Apple places requirements on its suppliers to meet regulatory and safety requirements, e.g., UL, CSA, CE, etc., that are often not required in the country of origin. Apple and its suppliers have contracts with terms and conditions, along with explicit and implicit standards, so Apple is calling a supplier out for not meeting Apple's standards.
This is entirely about Apple's administration and enforcement of standards that it places on its suppliers. The fact that Apple can only enforce the lack of adherence to its standards through the terms of its business arrangements with suppliers underscores the fact that Apple isn't acting as an enforcer of any laws in other countries, they are only enforcing their own standards they expect their suppliers, regardless of the laws in those countries.
Apple is at the very least trying to establish standards it expects from its suppliers, standards that Aplle believes are in harmony with Apple's core values. How much of this is genuine versus how much is being done for "improved optics" is always subject to debate. Offshore manufacturing will always involve some appearance of exploitation, at least at the cost of human capital level. However, no company wants to add any additional appearance of exploitation such as lax labor laws or oppressive working conditions on top of the base level. I personally believe Apple is genuinely trying to do the right thing at an ethical level, but at the same time, at a business level, it realizes that even the appearance of not doing so would be very destructive to its global manufacturing and sales strategies and do harm to Apple's stakeholders.
So yes, Apple and its leadership team are responsible and justified for placing these demands and enforcing standards on its suppliers. Whether you believe they are compelled by ethical reasons or business reasons reasons, or a bit of both, is up to you to decide.
I have work in high tech both on the design side and supply chain side for a long time and I am very familiar with agreements and what you can and can not hold a company to. Apple is no different than any company in the US, none of them want bad press and are only doing this to ensure they do not get bad press. The people who are going after Apple about other countries' labor laws know Apples does not want the bad press. There are thousands of other companies producing products in China which do not operate anywhere close to Apple suppliers, I know Apple suppliers I have dealt with most of them. These people going after Apple are not going after the thousands other companies, ask your self why they not chasing them all and only Apple and few other high profile companies.
Also, Apple can make a certain set of requirements to win the business but Apple can not force a company to comply with its standards if that countries does not have similar requirements. Every company who decided to do business in China knew China did not have the same laws as the US and elsewhere and they all accept this. With that said, what Apple is doing with Pegatron is enforcing local labor laws, China and Vietnam all have labor laws which are similar to most of the world, you can not be part of the WTO without have labor laws.
However, here is the difference between China and the US when it comes to labor laws and other similar laws, in the US the government enforces the laws and goes after violators. In China the government relegates this responsibility to non-Chinese companies. I personally been involved in cases with Chinese companies using underage workers or not paying over time. The Chinese government will tell the US company they need to address the issue with Chinese suppliers who is violating the law. What this means if the US companies goes in an tell Chinese company to fix the issue and the Chinese company usually turns around and say sure but it going to cost more. If the US companies wants the Chinese companies to fix the problem they will have to pay more. This why the Chinese government stays out because if they enforce the law the Chinese company can not have the cost discussion with the US company. I give Apple credit they tied future awards to ensure the problem is fixed, it kind of avoids the cost discussion it looks like Apple learned it lesson.
This problem is far more complicate than you make it out to be, it not about Apple trying to drive a common standards about avoiding bad press and dealing with the fact China does not enforce its own laws. The fact that China does not enforce it own laws has allow Chinese companies to make more money and force US company to pay more for increase labor costs to avoid the Chinese companies from doing thing which would bring them bad press.
If you were truly interested fixing this and not using a product make using illegal labor based on your standard of what is fair in labor you would stop buying stuff of Amazon which is made in China. Ask yourself why no one is going after Amazon for allow sellers to offer goods made at Chinese companies who do not follow the labor laws.
As I said it not the responsibility of any US company to make Chinese companies follow Chinese laws. If you have an issue please get on a plane and go to those Chinese companies and protest and see what happens.
What About the poor students, maybe they want to work over time to help pay for school. I know when I was in college I jump at any opportunity to work over time. Time and half is great you get 50% more pay for no additional effort on your part.
I said this before, it should not be a responsibility of any company to enforce work standards outside their own company. This is why laws exist. In the US if you found out a company was violated labor laws, you do not call the the companies who buy from them or the consumer who buy from them you call the Government and they fix it. Notice all the people who are upset with the labor practices in other countries are not jumping on plane to protest these countries, not they run to Apple and protest Apple, Ask yourself why they are not in China or Vietnam fighting for these people.
I disagree. Apple has a right to place whatever "standards" it wishes to place on its suppliers. It doesn't matter where or how these standards are enforced in the host country. The "law" does not stipulate or enforce quality standards that Apple places on its suppliers. Apple places requirements on its suppliers to meet regulatory and safety requirements, e.g., UL, CSA, CE, etc., that are often not required in the country of origin. Apple and its suppliers have contracts with terms and conditions, along with explicit and implicit standards, so Apple is calling a supplier out for not meeting Apple's standards.
This is entirely about Apple's administration and enforcement of standards that it places on its suppliers. The fact that Apple can only enforce the lack of adherence to its standards through the terms of its business arrangements with suppliers underscores the fact that Apple isn't acting as an enforcer of any laws in other countries, they are only enforcing their own standards they expect their suppliers, regardless of the laws in those countries.
Apple is at the very least trying to establish standards it expects from its suppliers, standards that Aplle believes are in harmony with Apple's core values. How much of this is genuine versus how much is being done for "improved optics" is always subject to debate. Offshore manufacturing will always involve some appearance of exploitation, at least at the cost of human capital level. However, no company wants to add any additional appearance of exploitation such as lax labor laws or oppressive working conditions on top of the base level. I personally believe Apple is genuinely trying to do the right thing at an ethical level, but at the same time, at a business level, it realizes that even the appearance of not doing so would be very destructive to its global manufacturing and sales strategies and do harm to Apple's stakeholders.
So yes, Apple and its leadership team are responsible and justified for placing these demands and enforcing standards on its suppliers. Whether you believe they are compelled by ethical reasons or business reasons reasons, or a bit of both, is up to you to decide.
I have work in high tech both on the design side and supply chain side for a long time and I am very familiar with agreements and what you can and can not hold a company to. Apple is no different than any company in the US, none of them want bad press and are only doing this to ensure they do not get bad press. The people who are going after Apple about other countries' labor laws know Apples does not want the bad press. There are thousands of other companies producing products in China which do not operate anywhere close to Apple suppliers, I know Apple suppliers I have dealt with most of them. These people going after Apple are not going after the thousands other companies, ask your self why they not chasing them all and only Apple and few other high profile companies.
Also, Apple can make a certain set of requirements to win the business but Apple can not force a company to comply with its standards if that countries does not have similar requirements. Every company who decided to do business in China knew China did not have the same laws as the US and elsewhere and they all accept this. With that said, what Apple is doing with Pegatron is enforcing local labor laws, China and Vietnam all have labor laws which are similar to most of the world, you can not be part of the WTO without have labor laws.
However, here is the difference between China and the US when it comes to labor laws and other similar laws, in the US the government enforces the laws and goes after violators. In China the government relegates this responsibility to non-Chinese companies. I personally been involved in cases with Chinese companies using underage workers or not paying over time. The Chinese government will tell the US company they need to address the issue with Chinese suppliers who is violating the law. What this means if the US companies goes in an tell Chinese company to fix the issue and the Chinese company usually turns around and say sure but it going to cost more. If the US companies wants the Chinese companies to fix the problem they will have to pay more. This why the Chinese government stays out because if they enforce the law the Chinese company can not have the cost discussion with the US company. I give Apple credit they tied future awards to ensure the problem is fixed, it kind of avoids the cost discussion it looks like Apple learned it lesson.
This problem is far more complicate than you make it out to be, it not about Apple trying to drive a common standards about avoiding bad press and dealing with the fact China does not enforce its own laws. The fact that China does not enforce it own laws has allow Chinese companies to make more money and force US company to pay more for increase labor costs to avoid the Chinese companies from doing thing which would bring them bad press.
If you were truly interested fixing this and not using a product make using illegal labor based on your standard of what is fair in labor you would stop buying stuff of Amazon which is made in China. Ask yourself why no one is going after Amazon for allow sellers to offer goods made at Chinese companies who do not follow the labor laws.
As I said it not the responsibility of any US company to make Chinese companies follow Chinese laws. If you have an issue please get on a plane and go to those Chinese companies and protest and see what happens.
Right now I'm helping my grandson study the 2nd industrial age of the U.S. from the 1870's through about 1900. It is eye opening. The great industrial empires flourished on the backs of abused workers -- including children. Had we had the laws we have today that revolution in industry would likely have never happened. At least not here.
There is a constant struggle going on between the largely unskilled and very replaceable workers in these plants and the owners of those plants. What's good for one tends to be bad for the other. There is a balance and, when it gets out of balance bad things happen: if laws are too strict business simply migrates elsewhere on the global stage. One thing that drove that was move to machine based production that required little or no skill from the employee. And, with coming automation of factories, that is likely to get worse. Possibly a lot worse.
Comments
Yeh, true. And, although China is largely capitalist, it has a socialist government who has little incentive to put people out of work with robots. That might be the break western, capitalist nations need...
No
Also, Apple can make a certain set of requirements to win the business but Apple can not force a company to comply with its standards if that countries does not have similar requirements. Every company who decided to do business in China knew China did not have the same laws as the US and elsewhere and they all accept this. With that said, what Apple is doing with Pegatron is enforcing local labor laws, China and Vietnam all have labor laws which are similar to most of the world, you can not be part of the WTO without have labor laws.
However, here is the difference between China and the US when it comes to labor laws and other similar laws, in the US the government enforces the laws and goes after violators. In China the government relegates this responsibility to non-Chinese companies. I personally been involved in cases with Chinese companies using underage workers or not paying over time. The Chinese government will tell the US company they need to address the issue with Chinese suppliers who is violating the law. What this means if the US companies goes in an tell Chinese company to fix the issue and the Chinese company usually turns around and say sure but it going to cost more. If the US companies wants the Chinese companies to fix the problem they will have to pay more. This why the Chinese government stays out because if they enforce the law the Chinese company can not have the cost discussion with the US company. I give Apple credit they tied future awards to ensure the problem is fixed, it kind of avoids the cost discussion it looks like Apple learned it lesson.
This problem is far more complicate than you make it out to be, it not about Apple trying to drive a common standards about avoiding bad press and dealing with the fact China does not enforce its own laws. The fact that China does not enforce it own laws has allow Chinese companies to make more money and force US company to pay more for increase labor costs to avoid the Chinese companies from doing thing which would bring them bad press.
If you were truly interested fixing this and not using a product make using illegal labor based on your standard of what is fair in labor you would stop buying stuff of Amazon which is made in China. Ask yourself why no one is going after Amazon for allow sellers to offer goods made at Chinese companies who do not follow the labor laws.
As I said it not the responsibility of any US company to make Chinese companies follow Chinese laws. If you have an issue please get on a plane and go to those Chinese companies and protest and see what happens.