Parallels, VMWare confirm Apple M1 support amid silence from other virtualization companie...

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  • Reply 21 of 47
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 6,110member
    dewme said:
    I really hope VMWare jumps into the M1 camp with Fusion. It's been a solid product and a great value for Mac users who want to run Windows, Linux, and macOS virtual machines on their Mac. I keep a VM with macOS Mojave around just to support 32-bit apps that no longer run on Catalina. Works great.

    I don't think a lot of Mac owners fully realize the great deal that the VMWare Fusion Player 12 (for non commercial use) represents for Mac users. The feature set of the free VMWare Fusion Player has one important feature, Snapshots, in the free version that Windows users do not get with the equivalent free version for Windows. To get Snapshots on Windows you'll have to pay for the VMWare Workstation 16 Pro version, which is $199.00 USD. 


    I've been a loyal customer of VMware since Fusion 4.0.  It was the primary reason why I went to a Mac after decades of WinTel.  I never looked back and I happily buy their new release every year.  I need to use Windows in my career.  No way around that.  It was for that reason that I just purchased a 2020 iMac so I could have the most recent Intel-iMac and know Apple will support it for at least five years.  By then, Apple (and developers) will have stabilized their Apple-silicon offerings and hopefully, something to accommodate us Windows users.

    I'm really excited for what Apple is doing.  Intel has been asleep at the wheel for years with their CPU's and I think Apple has leapfrogged over Intel in terms of performance and efficiency.  I'm looking forward to seeing real-world reviews of these new machines and see if the Apple's marketing-hype has any relation to actual use.
    Alex1N
  • Reply 22 of 47
    mr. h said:
    chadbag said:
    @rob53 where does Apple say they won’t “allow” x86 emulation?
    The claim is nonsense because Rosetta 2 is x86 emulation (well, strictly, it's x64 emulation).
    It is emulation (or rather a translation) of x64 of compiled MacOS apps that are not yet available as native ARM apps. This was shown in the WDDM back in June running an example of Microsoft Excel. This was not the Windows version of Excel but rather the MacOS version of Excel (making use of the APIs within MacOS). Rosetta2 surely is not meant to emulate an entire Windows OS in a VM. How would it work with the Hardware Extraction Layer and many drivers for I/O etc. Also, Windows on x64 needs hardware support from the GPU for rendering screens and scrolling etc. Sure this isn't Metal compatibility but rather DirectX compatibility. 

    So even while QEMU may be close to true x64 emulation, this is way off being able to emulate a full 'Intel CPU with DirectX compatible GPU and UEFI secure boot'. 
  • Reply 23 of 47
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,870member
    mjtomlin said:
    1. Rosetta is not emulation, it’s translation. It translates x64 code to ARMv8 code and hooks that translated code into native APIs. It cannot be used to emulate an x86 system.
    Thanks for this correction. Disappointed in myself for not being precise enough!
  • Reply 24 of 47
    Based on past experiences, x86 emulation is going to be slower and buggier with all kinds of compatibility issues. The real hope is for Microsoft to continue the development of Windows on ARM which can be virtualized via translation instead of emulation, which will likely happen if INTEL continues to fall behind with ARM moving to desktop PCs. In my opinion, the future is ARM. Intel's sun has set.

    A few days ago, Arm quietly launched its Cortex-A78C CPU core in a blog post. The processor builds on the previously announced Cortex-A78, but with a higher performance target than smartphones. The Cortex-A78C is designed primarily for always-connected laptops and other high-performance, battery-powered products. With Arm-powered Macs right around the corner, the Cortex-A78C could end up as the rival CPU in the Windows on Arm ecosystem for 2021 laptops.


    Here’s how Arm’s latest CPU targets laptop and handheld console performance

    https://www.androidauthority.com/arm-cortex-a78c-1175469/
  • Reply 25 of 47
    dewmedewme Posts: 5,551member
    jdb8167 said:
    For me, the normal use of VMWare Fusion is to virtualize a macOS instance. I do this when I'm working on something for a client because I don't want to mix their requirements with my personal setup.

    Yes indeed. Some people think I'm crazy to say that me and my colleagues do all of our development in virtual machines, but this is the primary reason - maintaining total control of the configuration of your dev environment. Plus the ability to take snapshots, simplicity of having full-machine backups, building a distributed system in-a-box, and of course testing ... testing ... and testing. This holds true whether you are developing on Mac or Windows.

    In most large corporate settings the IT people and the business "own" (or pwn) your machines and they are not above pushing software down to your machine that alters the overall machine configuration and services load out. Nothing worse than someone changing your dev configuration out from under you and then spending hours trying to figure out why something is suddenly not working. And no, you can't block this invasive behavior, not if you enjoy getting a paycheck. 

    These virtualization solutions are a really big deal for a subset of Apple's customers. If your livelihood depends on this capability today and for the next couple of years, it's a great time to invest in a beefy Intel Mac while they are still available. Apple, VMWare, Parallels, VirtualBox, etc., will undoubtedly figure all this out in due time and everyone will be happy. 
  • Reply 26 of 47
    rob53 said:
    I thought Apple said they will not support any x86 emulation on the M1 chip. If Microsoft tries to build a Rosetta-type emulation software, I have to wonder if Apple will even allow it. If Microsoft is able to somehow create an emulation layer in front of Windows 10 that would run using Apple's Rosetta-2 it would be a miracle since Microsoft has problems writing any software that runs well on a Mac.
    You're suffering from iOS-think.

    Apple's not going to stop anything from running on macOS.

    OTOH, if Microsoft creates stock ARM code, there's no guarantee it will run successfully on Apple Silicon.

    Apple has totally eliminated ARMv7 (32 bit mode), and IIRC has modified other instructions like vector instructions so the parameter list is more like Intel's.
  • Reply 27 of 47
    mjtomlin said:
    1. Rosetta is not emulation, it’s translation. It translates x64 code to ARMv8 code and hooks that translated code into native APIs. It cannot be used to emulate an x86 system.
    If you knew the format of Windows binary code segments, you could use something like a modified Rosetta 2 to transcode x64 to Apple's AArch64 and front-end the OS's segment loader.

    Of course if you did this on the M1, you'd be a tad strapped for memory.

    Best to wait for a later version which might include an external memory interconnect and maybe even multichannel PCIe (not that PCIe would help for this application).
  • Reply 28 of 47
    rcfarcfa Posts: 1,124member
    I wonder if Apple will resurrect BootCamp for an ARM64 version of Win10, which should work without too much ado, unless Apple makes the new Macs so closed you can’t boot ANY other OS, including ARM64-native FreeBSD, Linux, etc.
  • Reply 29 of 47
    melgross said:
    Not thrilled about Windows on ARM coming to the Mac, assuming it does. It offers nothing. It’s not Windows in that it doesn’t run any Windows software that isn’t recompiled for it. Additionally, performance is very poor on the one Qualcomm chip it does run on. This is like Windows phone 7, which only ran on a few chips Microsoft had it working on.

    MS would need to do something drastic to get it working on Apple’s chips. And Parallels would find performance to be a dog. With little software available for it, there’s no real purpose anyway. Right now, it only runs recompile’s of older 32 bit Windows software. 64 bit recompiled software support is planned, but for when? .NET, needed for proper software conversion to ARM won’t be out until the end of this year, assuming the best. But Microsoft has been working on different versions of Windows on ARM for, get this—9 years, and hasn’t gotten it right yet.
    Microsoft said 64-bit translation support will release in the fast track this month. So any day.
  • Reply 30 of 47

    anome said:
    mr. h said:
    chadbag said:
    @rob53 where does Apple say they won’t “allow” x86 emulation?
    The claim is nonsense because Rosetta 2 is x86 emulation (well, strictly, it's x64 emulation).
    What they have said is that Rosetta 2 won't support virtualisation. That is not the same thing as saying they won't allow developers to write their own emulation or hypervisor (which VMWare mentions they are working on) that will support it.

    I'm a lot more positive about it than I was, after reading the Parallels and VMWare releases on Apple Silicon, but we shall still have to wait and see what they actually deliver.
    Right. They didn’t say they wouldn’t allow this. They just said they wouldn’t do it themselves. I don’t think this is a priority since it is hard and would have a big performance impact. Just using Microsofts 64-bit translation in Windows and native ARM linux makes much more sense. If anyone develops emulation, it would make the most sense for Docker. The reverse was already done. Docker can emulate Arm on Intel. I imagine we will see some Docker containers converted over to ARM in Azure and AWS so their developers can use either ASi Macs or Intel machines.
    edited November 2020 anome
  • Reply 31 of 47

    jdb8167 said:

    melgross said:
    Not thrilled about Windows on ARM coming to the Mac, assuming it does. It offers nothing. It’s not Windows in that it doesn’t run any Windows software that isn’t recompiled for it. Additionally, performance is very poor on the one Qualcomm chip it does run on. This is like Windows phone 7, which only ran on a few chips Microsoft had it working on.

    MS would need to do something drastic to get it working on Apple’s chips. And Parallels would find performance to be a dog. With little software available for it, there’s no real purpose anyway. Right now, it only runs recompile’s of older 32 bit Windows software. 64 bit recompiled software support is planned, but for when? .NET, needed for proper software conversion to ARM won’t be out until the end of this year, assuming the best. But Microsoft has been working on different versions of Windows on ARM for, get this—9 years, and hasn’t gotten it right yet.
    I wouldn't say it offers nothing. If a VM could run Windows on ARM then Microsoft Windows could emulate 32-bit x86 windows software on a Mac. And Microsoft has said that AMD64 emulation is coming soon. That gives a complete method for running all Windows software on a Mac. It might be relatively slow but with the performance promised for the M1 Macs, it might still be pretty good (for everything except games).

    Edit: Clarification.
    It should be similar to Rosetta. Many programs will run about the same speed. With the performance and energy use of the M1 it should run better then an Intel processor. Graphics performance will be more questionable since non-ARM Windows software will not be optimized for TBDR. Graphics may be a quarter of the speed in some apps. However with a GPU that is 6X faster then Intel integrated graphics, many apps may be fine. Apple made changes in Big Sur for on-the-metal like graphics performance in virtualization. If games start to get optimized for Qualcomm chips, that should also work ok on ASi. I imagine Age of Empires 2 will work fine with translation. No other game matters :).
    edited November 2020
  • Reply 32 of 47
    rob53 said:
    I thought Apple said they will not support any x86 emulation on the M1 chip. If Microsoft tries to build a Rosetta-type emulation software, I have to wonder if Apple will even allow it. If Microsoft is able to somehow create an emulation layer in front of Windows 10 that would run using Apple's Rosetta-2 it would be a miracle since Microsoft has problems writing any software that runs well on a Mac.
    You're suffering from iOS-think.

    Apple's not going to stop anything from running on macOS.

    OTOH, if Microsoft creates stock ARM code, there's no guarantee it will run successfully on Apple Silicon.

    Apple has totally eliminated ARMv7 (32 bit mode), and IIRC has modified other instructions like vector instructions so the parameter list is more like Intel's.
    Don’t be silly. Microsoft is not using ARMv7. Apple supports everything modern in the ISA.
    edited November 2020
  • Reply 33 of 47
    rcfa said:
    I wonder if Apple will resurrect BootCamp for an ARM64 version of Win10, which should work without too much ado, unless Apple makes the new Macs so closed you can’t boot ANY other OS, including ARM64-native FreeBSD, Linux, etc.
    Bootcamp relies on an open boot loader. Apple has already said they are using a proprietary boot loader that requires Apple signed binaries and they are not going to support BootCamp. Virtualization is Apple’s solution. This isn’t likely to change anytime soon.
  • Reply 34 of 47

    rob53 said:
    I thought Apple said they will not support any x86 emulation on the M1 chip. If Microsoft tries to build a Rosetta-type emulation software, I have to wonder if Apple will even allow it. If Microsoft is able to somehow create an emulation layer in front of Windows 10 that would run using Apple's Rosetta-2 it would be a miracle since Microsoft has problems writing any software that runs well on a Mac.
    You're suffering from iOS-think.

    Apple's not going to stop anything from running on macOS.

    OTOH, if Microsoft creates stock ARM code, there's no guarantee it will run successfully on Apple Silicon.

    Apple has totally eliminated ARMv7 (32 bit mode), and IIRC has modified other instructions like vector instructions so the parameter list is more like Intel's.
    Don’t be silly. Microsoft is not using ARMv7. Apple supports everything modern in the ISA.
    An unofficial source said that even Win32 emulation from Microsoft is using Aarch64 code. If this is true then it won’t be much trouble for Microsoft to make a version of Windows 10 on Arm available for A VM on Apple  Silicon.
  • Reply 35 of 47
    roakeroake Posts: 821member
    rob53 said:
    Other reading material:

    https://www.parallels.com/blogs/parallels-desktop-apple-silicon-mac/ Not really a lot of information other than they're building a universal app. They mention the Windows blog listed below.

    https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2020/09/30/now-more-essential-than-ever-the-role-of-the-windows-pc-has-changed/ "We are working closely with Acer, HP, Lenovo, Samsung and Surface to bring these Windows 10 on ARM innovations and products to our shared customers." No mention about "Apple" in this blog

    I thought Apple said they will not support any x86 emulation on the M1 chip. If Microsoft tries to build a Rosetta-type emulation software, I have to wonder if Apple will even allow it. If Microsoft is able to somehow create an emulation layer in front of Windows 10 that would run using Apple's Rosetta-2 it would be a miracle since Microsoft has problems writing any software that runs well on a Mac.
    As far as I can tell, they have problems writing any software that runs well on Windows.
    rob53
  • Reply 36 of 47
    rob53rob53 Posts: 3,272member
    I stand corrected on my initial "thought" comment. Now that Apple has released its first M1 Macs and with Big Sur being released later today(?), we'll see what Parallels and VMWare have up their sleeves as well as any other developer.

    I'm in the process of updating Office 365 which is supposed to be (or might be) a Big Sur universal app (at least the other article said it's Bg Sur compatible for Apple Silicon). If Microsoft can at least keep their Office products running on Apple Silicon, many people will be happy.
  • Reply 37 of 47
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,585member
    mr. h said:
    melgross said:
    Not thrilled about Windows on ARM coming to the Mac, assuming it does. It offers nothing. It’s not Windows in that it doesn’t run any Windows software that isn’t recompiled for it.
    My understanding is that this isn't true - it has a translation layer just like Rosetta 2, so you can run x86 apps without a recompile. At least, that's what the Ars article I linked to above states.
    No, that’s incorrect. You need to compile for it.
  • Reply 38 of 47
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,585member

    jdb8167 said:

    melgross said:
    Not thrilled about Windows on ARM coming to the Mac, assuming it does. It offers nothing. It’s not Windows in that it doesn’t run any Windows software that isn’t recompiled for it. Additionally, performance is very poor on the one Qualcomm chip it does run on. This is like Windows phone 7, which only ran on a few chips Microsoft had it working on.

    MS would need to do something drastic to get it working on Apple’s chips. And Parallels would find performance to be a dog. With little software available for it, there’s no real purpose anyway. Right now, it only runs recompile’s of older 32 bit Windows software. 64 bit recompiled software support is planned, but for when? .NET, needed for proper software conversion to ARM won’t be out until the end of this year, assuming the best. But Microsoft has been working on different versions of Windows on ARM for, get this—9 years, and hasn’t gotten it right yet.
    I wouldn't say it offers nothing. If a VM could run Windows on ARM then Microsoft Windows could emulate 32-bit x86 windows software on a Mac. And Microsoft has said that AMD64 emulation is coming soon. That gives a complete method for running all Windows software on a Mac. It might be relatively slow but with the performance promised for the M1 Macs, it might still be pretty good (for everything except games).

    Edit: Clarification.
    Microsoft has been trying to do this for 9 years now, and has changed to way its done several times as each method has failed. So far, this one isn’t doing that well either. Even Office doesn’t run natively on it yet, and there’s no timeline for it to do so. We have no idea when 64 bits will be supported. Right now, it’s more a statement of intent that a statement that they’re almost ready with it.
  • Reply 39 of 47
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,870member
    melgross said:
    mr. h said:
    melgross said:
    Not thrilled about Windows on ARM coming to the Mac, assuming it does. It offers nothing. It’s not Windows in that it doesn’t run any Windows software that isn’t recompiled for it.
    My understanding is that this isn't true - it has a translation layer just like Rosetta 2, so you can run x86 apps without a recompile. At least, that's what the Ars article I linked to above states.
    No, that’s incorrect. You need to compile for it.
    Wrong. This is Windows 10 on ARM we're talking about, not Windows RT. Windows 10 on ARM includes a translation layer enabling it to run most x86 programs unmodified:

    "Windows 10 on Arm is a full-fledged member of the Windows 10 family, capable of running most Windows desktop apps unmodified". source: https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-on-arm-what-you-need-to-know-before-you-buy-a-surface-pro-x/

    "Windows 10 on ARM can run x86 apps". source: https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/19/17027026/microsoft-windows-10-on-arm-apps-games-limitations-support

    And, direct from the horse's mouth:

    "Emulation for x86 apps makes the rich ecosystem of Win32 apps available on ARM. This provides the user the magical experience of running an existing x86 win32 app without any modifications to the app.", https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/porting/apps-on-arm-x86-emulation
    edited November 2020
  • Reply 40 of 47
    melgross said:

    jdb8167 said:

    melgross said:
    Not thrilled about Windows on ARM coming to the Mac, assuming it does. It offers nothing. It’s not Windows in that it doesn’t run any Windows software that isn’t recompiled for it. Additionally, performance is very poor on the one Qualcomm chip it does run on. This is like Windows phone 7, which only ran on a few chips Microsoft had it working on.

    MS would need to do something drastic to get it working on Apple’s chips. And Parallels would find performance to be a dog. With little software available for it, there’s no real purpose anyway. Right now, it only runs recompile’s of older 32 bit Windows software. 64 bit recompiled software support is planned, but for when? .NET, needed for proper software conversion to ARM won’t be out until the end of this year, assuming the best. But Microsoft has been working on different versions of Windows on ARM for, get this—9 years, and hasn’t gotten it right yet.
    I wouldn't say it offers nothing. If a VM could run Windows on ARM then Microsoft Windows could emulate 32-bit x86 windows software on a Mac. And Microsoft has said that AMD64 emulation is coming soon. That gives a complete method for running all Windows software on a Mac. It might be relatively slow but with the performance promised for the M1 Macs, it might still be pretty good (for everything except games).

    Edit: Clarification.
    Microsoft has been trying to do this for 9 years now, and has changed to way its done several times as each method has failed. So far, this one isn’t doing that well either. Even Office doesn’t run natively on it yet, and there’s no timeline for it to do so. We have no idea when 64 bits will be supported. Right now, it’s more a statement of intent that a statement that they’re almost ready with it.
    When Microsoft keeps at things, eventually they get things to work even if it is ugly and less than stable. They seem to be getting there with Windows on Arm and their Win32 translation/emulation software. They might still abandon it since it is never going to be a major revenue source but so far they seem to be willing to carry on. I think that allowing a VM on Apple Silicon to run a version of Windows on Arm might actually help their cause. It is a made to order market for their less than successful Arm OS. The fact that they have a Win32 translator/emulator would allow ASi Macs immediate access to the Windows software library. And since the M1 is so much faster than anything that Microsoft has access to, it might actually make their software look relatively good. It's a win/win.
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